Teachers to hold strike ballot next month
Thursday 25th February 2010, 2:58PM GMT.
Ron Clooney
TEACHERS are heading for ‘all-out war’ with the States over their long-running pay dispute and could take widespread industrial action this spring, a union has warned.
Ron Clooney, regional spokesman for Jersey’s biggest teaching union, the National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers, said that negotiations have almost come to an end and members will be balloted over action by the end of next month.
In the union’s toughest warning to politicians yet, Mr Clooney said :
• Negotiations with the States have reached deadlock.
•The union no longer trusts the Jersey government.
• It has so many members that strike action would force schools to close.
• GCSEs could be disrupted.
• And if members approved action, demonstrations would be held at the Airport and in St Helier.
Treasury Minister Philip Ozouf said that the union had to be realistic over its pay claims in a time of significant budget constraints.
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Those teachers are behaving like spoilt brats, making demands and stamping their feet.
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“GCSEs could be disrupted”
Nice to know how caring our teachers are
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Good to see Mr Clooney’s members are paying him salary for him to state the obvious
“Negotiations with the States have reached deadlock.”
Should read: We’re no longer prepared to talk to the States, actually we were never prepared to talk in the first place and are absolutely sure that there’s no problem with the economy.
“The union no longer trusts the Jersey government.”
Unions have never trusted any government otherwise there’d be no need for unions.
“It has so many members that strike action would force schools to close.”
Nothing like emotive and power quenching threats is there.
“GCSEs could be disrupted.”
Should read: you’ll hold young peoples futures to ransom.
“And if members approved action, demonstrations would be held at the Airport and in St Helier.”
Go for it, I’m sure you’ll receive a warm and welcomed response.
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I’m sorry to have to say this but the States are being unreasonable in this case; they have refused to negotiate with the teachers unions at all on this matter which is in fact a breach of basic human rights for a start. Then after this all they want to offer as a way of trying to shut the unions up they have offered 2% pay increase this year and the next, if we take a minute to think about how pathetically small 2% actually is you might understand why they are wanting to make a point of standing up to the sates. Then on top of this we have to consider that teachers have not been give cost of living this year or next year and 2% does not cover this so they have effectively taken a pay cut. Then consider how you would feel if this were to happen to you considering the number of extra hours of unpaid extra time teachers are having to put in these day which recent studies have shown! Is it any wonder they want to make a point of it to the public?!
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Of course the government will play the credit crunch card, they can trump anyone moaning about money with that one. Although I think we might all be more accepting of this excuse if they weren’t spending our money on say, changing the colour of banknotes…
On the other hand teachers, whilst I do sympathize, resorting to GCSE disruption is a bit mean on the kids. If strike action is truly the only possible alternative then it should be done with minimum material disruption to exams.
RB
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Seriously, what on earth makes the Teachers think they are any more entitled to a pay raise than a lot of other sectors.
There is no rise this year, I didnt get one in my job either. Get over it.
Utterly disgusting
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Sorry Saki, 2% covers the January RPI of 1.7% which is the only increase I got to my pension, remembering that the real increase in the cost of living for pensioners is greater because of the ingredients of the formula used to calculate it.
You cannot have job security AND continually increasing incomes in times of economic hardship. Get real.
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Saki
I’m sorry to say this but I think you realistically have no idea how many other people are in the same situation! Teachers have one of the most generous pension plans on the island – more than those of us who work to ensure we arent relying on the States pension.
I have the highest respect for teachers and I think they earn a good wage for a diffciult job, but we all work extra unpaid hours!
I have a friend who has recently started work at a law firm and to ensure her job she feels she needs to work 11 hour days! It happens everywhere I’m afraid.
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I have to agree with Saki @ 4 above. Teachers deserve a rise at least in line with inflation. Teachers are employees and if they’re not happy with how their employer is treating them, they have the right to take action.
@ PJG (2) – How very short sighted of you! Do you think the teachers want to strike? The impact on GCSEs (if any) will be the fault of the states and not the teachers. The States will not even enter into discussions with the unions over this. Whilst both are being equally stubborn, if your employer won’t even talk to you, your options are pretty limited.
@ Joker (3) – “hold young peoples futures to ransom”.. this made me laugh… a lot. Neither yourself or PJG seem to be able to see the wood for the trees!
Roll on the strike….
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Get real, teachers. Be grateful for your priviliged employment. Many of us in the real world have accepted frozen salaries, a cut in salaries or even redundancies. What makes teachers so different? We, the tax payers are paying your wages. Why not try giving us value for money for a change! You’re not exactly underpaid. Bring on your ‘demonstrations’.
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Actually public sector pay increase this year was about 3.5%. Over the last 10 years teachers have a net increase of about 0.25%
Now if we are to not ask for a claim in times of hardship, why were the States refusing to negotiate in the boom times? Surely then we should be getting an increase above inflation.
My salary is worth less now than it was 5 years ago and I don’t finish at 3:30 every day and work most weekends.
We don’t get bonuses, are highly educated and have limited ability to just change jobs when the going gets tough. The public needs to see that most teachers come into work when sick just to ensure the educational needs of our students.
But enough is enough! Sometimes we need to put ourselves first. Especially when the economic reality is that we are not able to recruit teachers in some subject areas (how many schools do have a full time physics specialist?) Why is this? Because it is not worth while coming to the island anymore…
Think about the last time you said thank you to a teacher for taking that little bit more interest in the welfare of your child… or staying up to mark a piece of coursework to get feedback to them so that they can have another go… or being on email at 9pm on a Sunday night because there is an exam coming up and students need help.
We might have some holidays beyond other professions, but actually, we are never “off duty” and “thank you goes a long way”… when was the last time you were told to work for 20 mins into your lunch break with out it being given back “in lieu”..???
Many Primary teachers are still not being given their statuary entitlements because the Treasury doesn’t want to fund old agreements. Many teachers still do tasks which schools are prohibited in England from asking teachers to do… our conditions of service are not up to scratch and teachers are getting it in the neck for their tireless public service… Again, when was the last time you even thought to say thank you to the teacher of your child.
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Random Immigrant#9
“Roll on the strike….”
I wait in awe for your next intelligent, caring remark ?
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Talks have reached deadlock = Teachers want more than 2% pay rise offered (which IS above inflation!)and are blackmailimg the States by threatening exams and childrens education.
No doubt the States will come up with some sort of ‘Fudge’ to give the teachers what they want and save face.
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@ Saki #4
“…they have refused to negotiate with the teachers unions at all…”
That’s not true Saki.
“…pathetically small 2%…”
What is pathetically small to you, is still 2% more than many people have been offered.
“…considering the number of extra hours of unpaid extra time teachers are having to put in these day…”
That’s a stupid argument; if the hours aren’t contracted then the teacher’s shouldn’t work them, if they do it’s their choice and they can’t bleat on about being hard done by.
Do you think that people in the public sector don’t work extra hours too? and they don’t get the lengthy holidays enjoyed by teachers either.
@ Random Immigrant #9
“…they have the right to take action…”
They also have the right to hand in their notice and seek ‘better’ employment conditions elsewhere.
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This isn’t just about pay. This is about the basic right to negotiate, which the States are taking away. Parents should be supporting teachers, who, incidentally, did not receive any rise last year. If you are going to comment and even report on this dispute then I think it is the duty of the J.E.P. to inform the public of the whole situation that concerns teachers. Perhaps we could then see an informed debate on this website, rather than ignorant and random comments made by people who don’t realise the full implications of what the States are trying to do – not just to teachers -but ultimately to your children.
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#11 St Helier
“..or being on email at 9pm on a Sunday night because there is an exam coming up and students need help.”
Is this now part of teachers’conditions? If so more fools them for allowing it to happen.
When the concept of email first appeared I realised that, fast and efficient though it might be, it could easily become a backrod creation scheme. Now, years later, with people unable to go on holiday without their Raspberry constantly switched on, it looks like I was correct.
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@ St Helier #11
“…I don’t finish at 3:30 every day and work most weekends…”
Are those the hours stipulated in your contract?
“…are highly educated and have limited ability to just change jobs when the going gets tough….”
Now I didn’t get the education you did (I had poor teaching) but even I know an oxymoron when I see it!
“…The public needs to see that most teachers come into work when sick just to ensure the educational needs of our students…”
And you think those in the private sector don’t work when sick?
“…Think about the last time you said thank you to a teacher for taking that little bit more interest in the welfare of your child…”
Yesterday.
“…We might have some holidays beyond other professions, but actually, we are never “off duty”…”
Again, you think this is different to many private sector jobs how?
“…when was the last time you were told to work for 20 mins into your lunch break with out it being given back “in lieu”..???…”
My 30mins. lunch break hasn’t been used recently, but I did have to work an hour and a quarter just last night.
“…statuary entitlements…”
Surely that’s a legal issue, not one that that has bearing on increased pay.
So, in summary, none of what you mention is exclusive to teachers… except the very long holidays, and short contractual hours.
Boo-hoo.
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Random Immigrant #9
My comment “holding young persons future to ransom” wasn’t supposed to be funny. The fact you found it a joke is concerning, even more so if you are a teacher. BA employees received a massive backlash from customers when they decided to strike over the Xmas period. I guarantee you’ll receive the same reaction seeing as a disrupted Xmas is unlikely affect the rest of your life but not being fully prepared or having full support for your GCSEs could.
Seeing the wood for the trees is realising the fact that States revenue has fallen in 2009 due to the recession and will fall again from 2010 onwards due to the recession and 0/10. Speak to a teacher who specialises in economics and they’ll tell you raising public expenditure when income is falling is not “intelligent”. Or are you teaching children to stick their heads in the sand rather than facing reality?
St. Helier #11
You’re not the only one who’s salary is worth less than it was several years ago I assure you. I think you need to reassess your definition of hardship. Hardship is not being 2% worse off than you were last year. I know several teachers working for States schools and none of them anywhere meet what most would consider financial hardship, all bought their own properties, some have children and most go on nice holidays every year. If that’s financial hardship you need to look beyond yourself.
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I am personally disgusted by the behaviour of the teachers. Why they are so insistent on this pay rise, even in the economic climate, I have no idea. Are they oblivious the the fact that so many private sector jobs have been lost. They are lucky to be in the position they are.
And I cant even put words to what I think about them taking action near examinations – its not fair to disrupt students exams for your own selfish needs
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Sack anyone who goes on strike,and if on a J cat, kick them off the Island.
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@ PJG – How was my remark uncaring and unintelligent?
My partner is a teacher. She doesn’t work 8.30-3.30 as you all seem to think teachers do. She works 7 days a week, she spends 5-6 hours most weeknights and about 3-4 hours every Saturday and Sunday marking homework, preparing lesson plans, stressing about the kids! You appear to have no idea and your remark @ 2 above clearly indicates this.
@ 14 – J Lamborrari “That’s a stupid argument; if the hours aren’t contracted then the teacher’s shouldn’t work them, if they do it’s their choice and they can’t bleat on about being hard done by”
- You clearly have no idea what teachers have to do. Do you think they can just rock up and start teaching all of their classes without doing any sort of work outside their contracted hours? Do you want the youth of Jersey to continue to receive a quality education or do you want teachers to not mark homework and not prepare for lessons?
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I tell you, kids these days have it so good, when i was at school our teachers never went on strike, the lucky little so & so’s, i bet they can’t wait for all that time off school!!!
You’ve gotta feel a little sorry for the teachers though, i mean 2%, as a Civil Servant i wouldn’t scratch myself for that!!! No wonder they are going to strike!
But of course you are all correct, stand up to these lazy teachers. As many of you say, bring on the demonstrations, after all they only have your kids future’s in their hands. And as many of you say if they don’t like it, they can quit and look for better work elsewhere, we will retrain other people to do their jobs….. I know, last time i was in patriotic street car park there were loads of blokes just sitting around doing nothing, i bet they would make great teachers!!! YEAH, bring on the stikes!!!
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job security, and a jobs that pays well above, minimum wages is everything these days.
1200 unemployed today, a big (for jersey)labour pool , if it becomes more swollen, it will take a miracle, to reduce this.
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Teachers only work term-time and enjoy long Easter and summer breaks. If they are upset because they cannot complete their class preparation work within termtime then one cannot feel any sympathy for them.
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It’s funny; we keep being told that no one in the private sector is getting pay rises and that the public sector should follow suit. The public sector certainly didn’t get one last year… but, the Social Security contributions ceiling went up by 3% in January, because this was the average pay rise last year. So, obviously, the average pay rise in the private sector last year was well over 3%. Who is getting these rises? My guess is it’s those who are paid the most.
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Teachers should get more dough.
One of my teachers even knew a word I was asking before I finished asking her it.
“me ma said i am incor incorri incorrig
Do you mean incorrigible she asks.
Yes I says.
I could have told you that she snapped back.
Very clever was my teacher and a mind reader to boot!
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@ Random Immigrant #21
“…You clearly have no idea what teachers have to do…”
Of course I don’t, how could I possibly have insight into the secret world of teaching?! You say your partner’s a teacher, is it that much of a stretch to imagine that other people know teacher’s too? Maybe teacher’s with better time management than your partner who don’t work the hours you say she does, or maybe you partner is just the exception?? Clearly you have an idea what your partner does, question is why she didn’t realize this on signing her contract?
“…Do you think they can just rock up and start teaching all of their classes without doing any sort of work outside their contracted hours?…”
Yes. If they can’t why can’t they? Why did they enter into a contract they couldn’t meet their side of?
“…Do you want the youth of Jersey to continue to receive a quality education…”
Of course, which is why the teacher’s shouldn’t strike.
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It really saddens me that so many people with little or no attachment to the teaching profession feel they can make such scathing comments.
If teachers really do ‘have it easy’ as so many feel, I’d like to see them cope with the endless, marking, preparation, planning & parent expectation.
Of course, no self-respecting teacher wants to harm the educational prospects of children under their care, but at the same time, when can they feel listened to without the so-called edcuated’ public jumping down their throat with – ’13 weeks holiday per year’ & ‘working between 9am – 3.30pm each weekday’.
My wife is a well respected teacher on this island…If she didn’t bust her gut everyday (including weekends) you came be sure the parents would come down on her like a ton of bricks.
Teachers have a right not to be walked over & ignored – the dispute IS NOT solely down to a pay dispute. But, surprise surprise, those who want to vent their anger will always jump on this as a bat to bash them with.
I wholeheartedly agree with the comments of 4. Saki, 11. St Helier, 15. Liz & 21. Random Immigrant. The teachers threats are only being muted because they’re constantly being ignored!
J.Lamborrari – you really don’t seem to have a clue what you’re talking about. Until you understand the reasons behind the unrest, I suggest you keep quiet.
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Random Immigrant #21
“Roll on the strike….”
if you cant work out why your remark above is uncaring and unintelligent, your teacher must have been on strike when the lessons on caring for others was due.
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If the firemen or ambulance go on strike it does not mean that they don’t give a fig about the punters….you can not afford to lose the right to withdraw your labour if aggrieved even doctors do it…so it would be a shame for the teachers to be judged harshly or lose perspective in the public eye as there probably are loads of hours prep time we don’t always see….better to hold them accountable for the end product I see running about without manners or respect would justify a full refund..but then the parents must share that responsibility also….kids are the future,well prepared and informed ones are needed as never before.
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I see tonight’s editorial in the JEP basically accuses teachers of acting selfishly and deserving little respect for going on strike at the expense of the students exams etc
Show me ONE teacher who cannot take a couple days strike absence in their stride and help their students catch up what they missed. The notion that GCSEs will be endangered is utter tosh, media fear-mongery at its finest.
Here’s a scenario…teachers take this effective pay cut, have their negotiating rights withdrawn by the States and put up with working conditions that have long been abolished in the UK (I know, having taught there for many years before moving to Jersey).
Then, in a few years time, when no-one wants to teach in Jersey anymore, or a percentage of current teachers have got so sick of it all that they’ve moved on to different careers (I know many who have done this already)…exam grades will REALLY suffer. As will the students, their parents, society etc.
Ultimately this all boils down to priorities. In a week in which the States are prepared to throw 2 MILLION pounds at the finance industry to help them through the recession and yet are happy to demonise teachers for exercising their union rights…well, says it all really.
John
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#19 “Why they are so insistent on this pay rise, even in the economic climate, I have no idea. Are they oblivious the the fact that so many private sector jobs have been lost.”
Perhaps they know that the private sector would have grudged them a pay rise even when the private sector were rolling in cash and rubbing everyone elses noses in it until a couple of years ago.
As for children having their futures ruined, well it looks like some of them and their feckless parents are doing that successfully for themselves – if newspaper headlines and court reports are to be believed.
Can anyone come up with hard evidence that industrial action has caused exam failure?
Usually the occasional mass failures are down to schools teaching the wrong syllabus/set books. (Just to show that I am unbiased where teachers are concerned).
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Easy life a teacher! finish work early, weekends off and loads of holidays!!
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@ PJG 29 – No, I actually can’t work out how “roll on the strike” appears uncaring and unintelligent, as frankly a strike seems to be the only way to get the states to sit down and discuss the topic! I think you need to look at bit deeper at the issues here. It’s all well and good to say “Nice to know caring our teachers are” but do you think Jersey’s consistent success in national exams is down to uncaring teachers? You must think that everybody that strikes is uncaring. How do you apply that sentence to other professions, such as the fire or ambulance services, when they strike?
@ J Lomborrari 27 – I will agree that every teacher’s situation is different but again you display your complete lack of knowledge on this subject. You question my partner’s time management skills – she teaches about 110 students spread over three subjects at both A level and GCSE! Teachers also teach secondary subjects, often ones which they themselves have not studied since school. This means they have to again fully understand everything they are teaching which means more after hours work. You also can’t just teach a subject for a year, and then repeat the same classes the following year – syllabuses are changing all of the time and teachers need to keep up with these changes. On top of marking and planning, all of this involves work which must be done outside of school time! No teacher on this island does merely his or her contracted hours. You say “Why did they enter into a contract they couldn’t meet their side of” – they clearly meet their contracted hours… and some! You seem to not know anything about this subject matter, please tell me, what gives you the right to an opinion?
You say “Clearly you have an idea what your partner does, question is why she didn’t realize this on signing her contract?” – She realised quite well what she was getting herself into when she signed up. I would say that every teacher is well aware of the commitment they are undertaking. She’s not complaining about the workload, just the lack of acknowledgment for it. You cannot expect teachers to not complain when their quality of life is continually being eroded whilst the job they are required to do is constantly becoming more and more demanding.
@ Joker 19 – your comment “holding young persons future to ransom” was not funny. I do apologise if this was not clear enough in my initial response but I was actually laughing at you. Do you really believe that teachers are holding young persons’ futures to ransom? Is that you Treasury Minister? The likelihood of this impacting exams is minute. The union is simply using this as propaganda to expedite the talks that need to take place.
Everyone who doesn’t know a teacher seems to think that teachers have it easy, simply because they have more holidays than most of us! Do you have kids? My partner has 110 of them, and all she does is talk about them when she’s not in school. How great some of them are… how hard some of them work… how not-so-hard some of them work… some give her a bit of trouble…. but the rewards for her are helping these kids to achieve, whether it’s understanding a particular matter, or marking an exam paper and having to give an A grade to an otherwise average student…. I suppose it must feel great seeing her hard work come to fruition. She loves her job, she’s a great teacher [ I had to say that
] and she cares deeply about her students.. every one of them.
Where would any of us be without teachers!
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The amount of people who think teachers finish at 3.30 and have long holidays is quite hilarious.And J lamborrari seems to think that teachers should only work their contracted hours and not a minute more-not quite the real world I’m afraid!My daughter and her husband are both teachers although frankly I wish they would re-train for another profession but they are dedicated so I won’t argue with that.They are in school by 8 and rarely home before 6 and the long holidays(!)are often spent either at work or preparing at home and hopefully time for a week away (paying over the top because it’s school holidays of course-they cannot simply take a week out during term time like the children can!)My daughter had to take a rare day off this week as she was unwell but still got a call from work asking her to phone a parent urgently as she needed reassurance about her child!Of course there is also the threat of violence nowadays and the endless courses to attend and the reports that get written these days are incredible-it used to be “good” or “must try harder” and now it is an essay on your child’s progress-all very time consuming.
There may be some teachers who simply do their “contracted” hours and are past caring but if you happen to know any decent teachers who enjoy seeing their students progress and want to help them achieve goals and make the best of themselves then you may be qualified to comment on this subject.
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LOL @ comment #33.
I used to be a teacher, but quit to get a job in a bank. I now earn more money and work less hours, and the work is a doddle.
Many of my old colleagues are also quitting or going elsewhere due to the demands of the job and the poor conditions, which is a great shame as many of them are very good teachers.
Having worked in both industries (private and public), I think I am qualified to say that teaching is definitely not the easy option, nor is it an easy life.
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When I was at uni, the ones who went into teaching were the people who couldnt get jobs elsewhere.
There was a saying: “Those who can, do. Those who can’t, teach.”
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•The union no longer trusts the Jersey government.
This is how I feel as well. I don’t blame the teachers for this. The ball lies fair and square at the CoM’s feet. Their lack of will to negoitate has brought this about IMHO. Dictatorial politics are not the best way to engender good feelings. We all know what happens when people get disgruntled. It is hard enough to get teachers as it is. If you want the best for your children you have to pay for it or do people expect a free lunch?
If I was in charge I would seriously consider charging all parents school fees. This would then help the general tax payer out. Jersey has adopted a user pays policy now, so come on folks get your money out. It could be argued that why should those with no children be paying for others children?
It could be argued that if this happened then teachers could be paid what they are worth and not what the government can get away with.
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Ex Miss No. 36 If you entered teaching for financial reward alone then it is good that you left and went to work in a bank. Teaching is a vocational career and is taken up by those who love children.
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36 Ex Miss
…it is if you’re a P.E. teacher
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You may be right to a certain extent, but loving kids does not make a good teacher.
I didn’t enter teaching for financial reward. Money did not interest me back then. I wanted to be a teacher because I liked children and thought teaching would be a doddle. Long holidays, short hours etc.
How wrong I was. There was so much more to it, and if you don’t put the work and the hours in, you fall behind and then your students suffer.
I am not ashamed to admit that I didn’t cut the grade, so I did get out. It wasn’t doing me any good, it wasn’t doing my students any good.
It’s only now that I am working in the private sector that I realized what cushy work is. I also love the fact that I can have a life now because I have money and I am not constantly tired. My evenings are my own, as are my holidays. I negotiate my pay rise every year, it has always been far bigger than anything I recieved as a teacher…. and I get a big fat bonus every Xmas.
I may not have been a good teacher, but I appreciate how hard they work with very little reward. And before people argue that the achievements of their students should be reward enough, I’m afraid, that doesn’t pay the mortgage.
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@ Random Immigrant #34
“…you display your complete lack of knowledge on this subject…”
Exactly how? I’d love to hear you explain how you believe I lack knowledge on this subject completely.
“…all of this involves work which must be done outside of school time!…”
Not necessarily.
“…No teacher on this island does merely his or her contracted hours…”
That may, or may not be true, and if it is true as you so boldly claim do you think that all private sector workers in Jersey do not work beyond their contracts? This alone does not make the teachers any kind of a special case.
“…they clearly meet their contracted hours… and some!…”
I’ve never done a job any differently, most people that I know haven’t and yet they still had far more limited holidays and hours than teachers to begin with. Personally I would be quite happy for teachers to work only to their contracted hours if it meant they weren’t bleating all the time about how hard they were being done by, and threatening to not bother doing their jobs as they agreed to.
“…please tell me, what gives you the right to an opinion?…”
You need me to explain to you what give me a right to sentience?! What give you the right to even ask that question you arrogant fool?
“…She realised quite well what she was getting herself into when she signed up. I would say that every teacher is well aware of the commitment they are undertaking…”
Are you saying that all teachers entered into a contract of employment knowing the conditions they were agreeing to? Now they’re threatening not to meet their responsibilities under that contract, yet you don’t see anything wrong with that?!
“…She’s not complaining about the workload, just the lack of acknowledgment for it…”
Most people will agree that most, by no means all, teachers do a very good job; I do not know your partner, but if what you say about her commitment to her job is true then you can pass along my sincere thanks for her hard work, especially the hours she chooses to work that she is not expected to; I offer the same praise and acknowledgement to all good teachers working in the education system… now praise heaped maybe they’ll consider carrying on doing their job without the threats of strike action.
I do not expect them to acknowledge me for the hard work I do in my job, I’m happy to receive just the modest payment that I agreed to in my contract of employment.
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@Dave, comment 37
That’s right Dave. Those who can’t get jobs anywhere else yet have successfully acquired a degree at university, passed national literacy and numeracy qualifications and then copmpleted a year of hands-on training plus comprehensive research and essay writing…teach. What useless numpties they must be.
Mick
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“The union no longer trusts the Jersey government.”
Nor, we are told, does Adrian. Well, so what?
We live in a democracy. The government are elected. The unions have shown themselves to be narrow minded bullies for decades and I doubt anyone in Jersey “trusts” them other than their pasta nd present members.
And all this guff about how hard teachers work: we all work hard. That’s modern life. Go into any law firm or bank at 8 in the morning or 5 at night and see how many people have left the building. If you don’t like it, you change job. But none of us have it easy and teachers don’t get a bad deal.
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I expect someone can clarify this for me, but if teachers are on Civil Service pay scales, don’t most of them go up a notch most years? The amount they go up to may be excatly the same as the pay for that grade now (hence the freeze) but what proportion of teachers will still nevertheless get a pay increase? If they are stuck at the top of their band, I think this means that they have not developed themselves sufficiently to move onwards and upwards, in which case getting more for the same doesn’t seem right to me.
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Mike many teachers do not wish to move up into management, preferring instead to…simply…er…teach. (I include myself in this bracket btw.) Are you suggesting we punish them by withholding yearly pay increases (effectively cutting their pay each year) as the cost of living rises?
Seems a bit harsh to me. Would you really seek to crowbar the best and most experienced classroom practitioners out of their classrooms simply for the sake of having them satisfy your seeming need to perceive some kind of ‘progression’?
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Why don’t the teachers go on strike during their summer holidays?
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J lamborarri
I find myself warming to you and your comments. Although a lot of people may not agree with you (sometimes myself included) you still manage to get your point across rather eloquently and in a light mannered way…without intentionally (at least in most cases) causing offence in your responses and never get dragged into name calling.
Your posts on this issue (which I fully agree with) have made me chuckle.
Teachers have a tough job, but guess what? A lot of people have tough jobs! …and everyone is finding it tough in the current financial climate!
Count yourselves lucky to be in employment….I’m sure there are plenty of teachers on the mainland who would dream of the relatively easier job of teaching in Jersey…for more money!
Be careful about voting for strikes because as we have all witnessed on these forums and in national public responses to other rogue employees threats (i.e. BA)….they do not get ANY sympathy and are often despised!
The people you’d be hurting are Joe Public and not the authorities….find another way to negotiate your demands or accept the current situation is dire for everybody, therefore, you are not entitled to preferential treatment.
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@ 41 Ex Miss,
If work in the private sector is a doddle and you get paid more and work less, how is a bonus justified?
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Mick, not sure where the idea of punishing teachers comes from. Images of canes – doh! As you’re in the know, is it the case that many teachers will get a pay rise by moving up a band, so the noise about all teachers suffering a pay freeze is a bit misleading? Also, what price would you put on public sector job security? Oh, and how would you define professionalism? Are teachers who threaten the withdrawal of their services to children a great example of professionalism? Made greater by the proximity to exams?
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@49. Rozel Joe
It isn’t. But I am hardly going to turn it down am I. Duh!
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And to add to my post above, my pay increase probably isn’t justified but I still get it.
Teachers, who work damn hard and are more deserving of a pay rise aren’t getting one. Yet some people on this thread feel the need to insult them.
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‘And all this guff about how hard teachers work: we all work hard. That’s modern life. Go into any law firm or bank at 8 in the morning or 5 at night and see how many people have left the building. If you don’t like it, you change job. But none of us have it easy and teachers don’t get a bad deal.’
You have forgotten the famous senior bankers or partners lunches.
They can start at eleven with coffee, turn in to lunch at twelve and finish with tea at three.
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“You have forgotten the famous senior bankers or partners lunches.
They can start at eleven with coffee, turn in to lunch at twelve and finish with tea at three.”
Well Pip, what a load of tosh.
As for senior bankers, that’s just rubbish. Every senior banker has to work at least 60-70 hours a week plus foreign travel.
And I can only assume you have never been on a client lunch if you think they are in any sense enjoyable.
But at least we know that your opinions were formed in the mid 1970s and facts haven’t changed your prejudices since then.
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@50 ?????
Of course teachers don’t keep moving up the payscales every year!
A fully qualified teacher is on X payscale, if they are the manager of a department they will get X payscale, if they are headmaster they get X payscale.
It would be ridiculous if they moved up the payscale every year! I’m afraid you are a prime example of why this island needs good teachers!!!
And there is no longer guaranteed “public sector job security”, read the papers!
And
“Are teachers who threaten the withdrawal of their services to children a great example of professionalism? Made greater by the proximity to exams?”
Good point, that is why they should be treated fairly and given decent recompense for what, as you point out, is a job with a great deal of responsibility and requires professionalism of the highest order!
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As far as senior partners is concerned, the key point is that they “own” their business. They have built it up themselves and own a chunk of it. Whether or not they choose to play golf or have lunch is up to them: unlike teachers, they don’t get paid from my tax or your pension.
Also, do not assume that a “senior partner” is a person of importance within a businesses: it is often given to someone in recognition of what they have done in the past, rather than in expectation of what they may achieve in the future.
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donald can you give me your views on the weapons of mass distruction in Iraq?
Why weren’t they there?
was it
a) someone hid them so well that no one could find them,
b) they disappeared into a parallel space/time continuum,
c) someone moved them into Iran,
d) it was a joke,
e) it was a publicity stunt for the military,
f) it was cobblers?
What do you honestly think?
I have also seen bankers on the golf course mixing business with pleasure maybe you are unaware of this?
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@ Teachers Pet #55
“…Good point, that is why they should be treated fairly and given decent recompense for what, as you point out, is a job with a great deal of responsibility and requires professionalism of the highest order!…”
I like to see what all these hugely qualified, professional, selfless teachers would say given the offer of a 10% pay increase… only on condition that they all resign and reapply for the teaching jobs available.
I wonder if they’d be quite so sure of their worth if they knew they’d be competing for the very well paid job on offer with all the other teachers available to fill these posts.
At the end of the day the Island would end up with the best teaching staff available, and nobody could whine that they weren’t fairly paid.
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The pay freeze is ONE reason why teachers are preparing to strike. Here’s a few more:
- negotiating rights have been removed by the States. The unions simply cease to matter any more. This is a dictatorial approach to government and will set a dangerous precedent for future years. Thus we need to make our objections loudly and vociferously; hence strike action. This (as far as I can tell) is the CHIEF reason why the unions are calling for strike action.
If we do nothing now, then there is nothing to stop the States from arbitrarily dismissing the Unions in the future. In essence we teachers will therefore have ZERO input or influence over our own working conditions. Our professional rights will essentially have been stripped from us.
- for 9 out of the past 10 years teachers’ yearly pay rises have been BELOW the cost of inflation. Essentially we have been taking steady pay cuts for a decade.
- We have STILL not been given the pay rise promised to us a year ago, let alone this current freezing.
- working conditions in Jersey are FAR worse for teachers in the UK. Lunchtime playground duties, giving up 75% of free periods in any week to cover absent colleagues….these were effectively outlawed in the UK several years back. No such case in Jersey, where the ‘excess duties’ expected from teachers exert a continuous and insidious influence upon their health, performance and effect. Fact.
So for all the people out there bleating about how ‘greedy’ and selfish we teachers are, try to look past the headlines and editorials and realise that there is something FAR greater at stake here.
It is the future, rights and foundation of the very teaching profession itself in Jersey that is at stake here. Pay rises are but a small part of it, yet, alas, the only thing that most people seem to be focusing on, much, I am sure to the States’ delight.
Mick
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@ Adrian #57
These threads sometimes tend to go off at tangents, and I don’t see too much of a problem with that when there’s a point, or the conversation starts to fork down a slightly different route; but I’m totally at a loss to see what the fork you are talking about bring up WMD/Iraq in this thread, or in anyway relating to the issue!?
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Its pretty obvious to me J.Lamborrari. The clues are in donald’s post no.44.
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… they have refused to negotiate with the teachers unions at all on this matter which is in fact a breach of basic human rights for a start
And exactly what human right might that be? Indentured servitude would be a breach of your human rights. You have the right to quit and go elsewhere for employment.
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I used to be a Govenor at my son’s school in the UK. Our monthly meetings were scheduled for 5.30pm. I always used to struggle to get to the meeting for this time. Whereas the teachers used to complain that the meetings were scheduled too late. They of course had been kicking their heels for the past 2 plus hours. In the end I resigned due to the fact that I couldn’t put up with their constant whinging about how difficult it was to be a teacher what with Ofstead inspections, SATS and the time they now had to spend actually planning lessons.
All of which (I took every opportunity to tell them) had transformed the school, in a positive way, since I was a pupil there 30 years previously.
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After reading so many anti teacher remarks on this page, one can only think that they have been writen by students who don’t want to be educated or educated people who have forgotten who taught them to reach the positions that they hold now. If I were a teacher reading these remarks by uneducated people who do not understand the true meaning of this dispute between the teacher’s union and the States. Its about the States refusal to openly negotiate with them.
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Mick, Teacher’s Pet, your ideas of professionalism are not mine. Professionals would never, ever pursue their own interests to the detriment of their patients/clients/pupils. Professionals do not strike. Never. Full stop.
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Mick #59
“You” teachers are threatening to strike.
“You” are threatening to ruin our children’s chances of a decent future by doing this when it affects their taking exams.
You are threatening to disrupt parents lives so as to have a big stick to beet “your” employers.
And you want us to condone such selfish behaviour in ones who should be setting an example to the workers of tomorrow ?
Why not come and live in the real world where people who are good at their job get just rewards. Shed yourself of the union yoke where the hard working carry the useless for the same pay. Or are you one of those who think if you had to rely on your own skills and not have the backing of the “brothers” you would have to take a pay cut ?
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@ Adrian #61
Nope, I’m no wiser!? Funny how when asked a question, rather than answer it you point to the ‘obvious’ clues: Now I know Adrian won’t answer, but can anybody see the obvious clues he’s talking about in post #44 that tie Iraq and or WMD to this teacher’s strike action issue?
@ Mr V #64
“…one can only think that they have been writen by students who don’t want to be educated or educated people who have forgotten who taught them to reach the positions that they hold now…”
If those are the only two things you can think off I would say your education has left you lacking an open mind.
I very well remember those that were supposed to teach me, but they did a pretty poor job in some instances, not all, and cost me the education I would’ve liked. And this isn’t rose-tinted hindsight, I recall telling an English teacher that she wasn’t a good teacher because she put her own bigoted beliefs before her students. Another of these long-hour working teachers worked so long after school that she managed to knock me off my bike as I rode home, such was her rush after such a long day at school.
I’m not anti teacher, I’m anti-bad teacher and anti-strike action.
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@Mike
Maybe in your world Mike, but in mine (the real one) professionals DO strike if they perceive that the profession they represent is being damaged by mismanagement on behalf of the governing forces.
You have a very blinkered, simplistic view of things if you believe that both the NUT and the NASUWT (not to mention other professional union bodies) are simply a collective of individuals persuing ‘their own interests to the detriments of their patients, clients or pupils.’
We CARE about our profession. We want to be the BEST we can be. As such it is VITAL to us that we stand up and be counted in the face of the States’ total mismanagement of this whole situation.
I assume that you would prefer the alternative; that we simply roll over and take whatever conditions they impose upon us. Disband the unions over here…make the teaching profession and our conditions of sevice wholly dependent upon the whims of the ruling few.
TOTAL STATE CONTROL of the pedagogical class…fancy that? Any rumblings could easily be suppressed via the STATE police, stop those whinging selfish teachers from doing anything but martyring themselves (as required by society) in the name of their pupils and the parents. No unions, no strikes, no action…just a humbled, bowing subservience from the grateful teaching class.
You speak of teachers acting to the detriment of their pupils. I return to another point I made earlier in this thread; leave things as they are in Jersey and see how many good teaches remain loyal to their eroded and much-maligned ‘profession’ in 20 years time. THEN start talking about detrimental effects…for you shall have plenty.
Mick
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Mick
If you spent as much time marking your students work as you do ranting on these forums then perhaps you’d be able to work your contractual hours and enjoy your spare time.
I notice the time of your last comment was 11:46….was this another tea break or did you have a free lesson perhaps….????
I know you can’t be commenting whilst actually taking a lesson because we all know how teachers consistently give their 100% undivided attention to their students at all times….
You say “for 9 out of the past 10 years teachers’ yearly pay rises have been BELOW the cost of inflation. Essentially we have been taking steady pay cuts for a decade.”
And?
A lot of people have not matched cost of living with their annual increases in the last decade….why should teachers be so special!
I would love to get a cost of living rise as opposed to the pathetic offerings we do get (in finance)…..lucky for me it is performance related so it can be better than that of many others if you are good at your job.
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I dearly hope that Mick isn’t a teacher. He doesn’t seem to understand the attitude you need if you’re to get a seat at the high table.
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BS Deluxe I work at a college; my timetable is NOT that of the secondary schools. As such I am ‘ranting’ from the comfort of my own home. Nice detective work but alas you are no Sherlock Holmes.
You take umbrage with my mention of pay rises below inflation. Please bear in mind that this is is but one facet of the teachers’ complaint and should not be considered in isolation.
As for members of the finance industry receiving ‘pathetic offerings’…I am laughing so hard I just fell off my chair.
And let’s not forget that it as the greed of your ‘industry’ that put us all in this god almighty hole in the first place.
Mick
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BS Deluxe 69 and Mick 71
Private-sector and public-sector workers do not inhabit two different worlds and should be in the ‘wage fight’ together.
Until now the brunt of the economic crisis has hit the private-sector and the politicians know this. So, they are craftily turning private-sector frustration into public-sector hate. Therefore, I really think we should explore the dark side of these regular attacks on public-sector workers with due attention…one thing is to make conflict with the civil servants public, another is to use their pay and work conditions against them in order to generate envy.
All governments understand the power of ‘envy’ and use it to provoke squabbles amongst citizens. The ‘common-enemy-syndrome’ (in this case public-sector workers) can be cleverly manipulated to draw attention away from key issues, in particular, government spending. In fact, what citizens should really be discussing is ‘HOW ALL PUBLIC MONEY IS SPENT’ and not simply ‘PUBLIC WORKERS’ SALARIES’…because public-sector and private-sector workers are ultimately in the same boat.
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Mick, your language, tone and attitude are unprofessional in anybody’s world. You really don’t get it and unfortunately it is not something that can be taught. There are no GCSE’s in Conscience.
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@72 Born warrior.
the most sensible comment by far on this forum.
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Very valid points Born Warrior. In my opinion a classic way to defeat a majority is by seeding conflict and envy between two factions that would otherwise be one unit. By doing this you basically set your opponents at each others throats. It is far easier to mop up a few remnents left over from a battle than to fight two enemies at once.
This is a classic control mechanism as far as I am concerned and in my opinion it can work very well….
Why not treat all workers with respect, if you are one, and realise your fellow workers are not your enemies?
As with anything I would analyse the situation and see who gains the most from what ever action I am preparing to take. It may not be those I first thought of. I may then want to alter my stance to face those who I really ought to be facing….
This is how I approach things.
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