Standards are high in all Jersey schools
Wednesday 10th March 2010, 2:59PM GMT.
From Nathan Jordan.
WHEN I was studying in Paris, I was asked to give a short presentation on Victoria College. I mentioned the quaint fashion of teachers wearing robes (my father tells me this was also a good way to keep chalk off his suit) and also about the house system. One girl asked that if such schools were private, why were they referred to as ‘public’? I explained that this was because any child could study there. My British friend then claimed that in practice there were minimum standards of intelligence and fees to be met.
Irrespective of the peers I had with special needs and the bursary system, I decided to tackle this claim on its own terms. I told my friend of a very interesting maths lesson I once had where we compared the cost of school fees to other expenses.
For example, if two parents each smoking a packet of cigarettes a day were to give up, the subsequent savings would easily cover sending their child to our public school. (This would also cover the costs of sending a girl to JCG at 2009 rates).
Were they to forgo the costs of a mid-range car in our tiny Island, their child would also be able to don the blazer of their choice. (Incidentally a blazer costs less than installing and using Sky TV for a month).
The standard of education at States schools in Jersey is also head and shoulders above that of the UK. The financial investment, per child alone, is over twice that in English schools where I’ve worked. I spent my final year of sixth form at Hautlieu School and could not have been more impressed by the staff and facilities. it has gone from strength to strength since.
Private school is a matter of choice. However, for some it is also a matter of priorities.
As for those who cannot afford it, their children are still receiving a brilliant schooling.
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Children are sent to States schools by parents who prefer to milk the system. They are quite happy to survive on handouts whether this effects their children’s education or not.
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And yet so many of the partners of our large legal firms and trust companies graduated from ex-poly’s and and best mid range universities, to[ Russell Group university degrees being as rare as hen’s teeth. That’s where Jersey’s special attachment to the worst aspects of human capital, namely who you or your family know, lets us down. A far less meritocratic environment than the mainland.
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I’ve found going to a Russell Group University counts for very little to be honest Tom, it seems relevant work experience and a vocationally oriented degree are seen as much more useful.
NJ.
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Glad to see standards have risen.
When I started school the teacher said to me I have to learn to speak proper English.
But oi come from oieland and tis is how tey speak tere.
You must use H after T she said.
I tink I must be tick I says,I keep forgetting to use the H.
No No No she says,Its I think I must be thick.
No your not says I,I tink your very clever.
She asked someting from god patience i tink.
god bless te teacher,she taught me how to speak te proper English-and I’m an atiest
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@ Toastedteacakes #1
My parents didn’t send me to any fee paying school, but they didn’t do this to milk the system. I couldn’t afford to pay school fees even if I wanted to, but I wouldn’t consider myself to be milking the system if I were to send my child to a States school.
I think you need to apologise for making such a sweeping and insulting statement: or back it up with some evidence.
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Tom, if you are a Jsy bean and you manage to get that 2.1 plus from KCL, Imperial or O&C etc, chances are your going to be looking to hit the big time off the rock if you have any ambition. That may explain your observations but I take your point.
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2: TJ that’s my experience too. The situation in the UK was far more competitive. In 2000 it could still be stated that Jersey firms were desperate for people power and posts outnumbered applicants. In the UK friends were competing against literally thousands in the mid nineties, non Russell group didn’t get a look in.
If there isn’t a rigorous equal opportunities culture supported by legislation like employs like thus the firms are full of clubbable Vic boys and the occasional fabulously bright Hautlian and secretaries from Beaulieu..good old service ethic..but the brightest minds left to set up internet start ups and become academics/diplomats etc. In the extreme Jersey rewards mercenaries and tax avoidance facilitators (who then use tax subsidised ‘private’ schools) People in part use schools like the college because they’re relatively cheap (because of the subsidy) and because of the continuity and networks (and status I suppose but that’s just sad). They’re not selective, you just have to be born at the right time of year and get your name down quick…then it is very unusual not to progress straight from prep to secondary. If you want a small school, community based education and believe in your childs intelligence my personal opinion is that you’re far better off at a rural parish school.
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Thing is J, I have every sympathy for those people who genuinely cannot afford to pay tuition fees (although I am a little bemused at them slating public schools as it seems they’re making a virtue out of a necessity).
This said, many people seem to ascribe to this point of view that public school is innately for the elite and wealthy, neither of which are necessarily true of the students – it’s come to the point where I think there is a kid of reverse snobbery associated with private education, which after all is as innocuous as using balsam scented tissues as opposed to shop’s own brand.
Something I also didn’t mention in my letter which I should have done is that every child who applied to University gets a means tested grant from the States of up to around £9,000, easily covering tuition fees with a little left over for expenses – this was how I went to University and I have no chip on my shoulder about those people who forked out of their own pocket for it!
NJ.
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My children were at a fee paying school, however, due to rising taxes, rising cost of living and no pay rise, I have had to withdraw them and send them to states school as I can no longer afford the fees.
Perhaps I am milking the system, but then the system has been milking me for every penny I have got for years now!
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Dear Bella,
I was very sorry (and touched) to hear of your woes. My gran was a dear old Irish lady who lived in the island for almost 50 years and was very proud of her accent, to the extent that she expressed outrage when people were incredulous at how she had managed to retain it.
As a linguist I do think the greatest thing people with regional accents have going for them is digital television, as it allows you to hear your local weather report in your chosen twang…
NJ.
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@ Toastedteacakes #1
Jersey taxpayers pay for all Jersey schools. Some of these are parents of children who attend states schools, some are parents who send their children to schools part funded by the states and also fees paid by parents. There is a stong argument that it is the ‘public’ school parents who milk the system as you say, as this diverts funds away from essential states school funding. Jersey States have a legal obligation to provide primary and secondary education for all. There is no legal obligation to part fund ‘public’ schools. If taxpayers money wasn’t used to part fund the ‘public’ schools, some parents may well send their children back to states schools, thereby ensuring the empty spaces are filled and fixed costs of the current inventory of states schools are made all the more efficient.
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Hi CJ, the point you raised was addressed in the other letter in the JEP next to mine – if we were to do as you say and withdraw funding, we’d still have to pay for the placement of all the children who would have to withdraw from the island’s public schools, who easily number over one thousand.
While it is true that such schools receive the same amount as a State school in terms of funding, they do not receive any more than this either. Therefore the burden of the individual child at a public school on the taxpayer is no more than if they were in a States school. Anything extra is paid for by their parents.
NJ.
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Don’t really understand Toastedteacakes comments.Maybe he could explain how people “Milk the System”.I would also like to know about “Handouts”.Many people I know would love to send their children to fee paying schools but because of large mortgages they are unable to.I was one of them.My children went to States schools then Hautlieu.One is at uni now and another doing a degree at Highlands.Would they have done any better if I had paid?Debatable.
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I cannot believe post 1. Is this some sort of undiscovered reverse irony? People pay taxes to provide education amongst other things so how is that milking the system.
As Nathan enjoyed being at Hautlieu so much he should have gone there years earlier, saved his parents a load of money so that they could have enjoyed all the fags, booze, SkyTV that they could cram in.
The semi-Public schools seem attract aspirational middle-class parents and the States subsidising of these schools has never been popular.
The fact that the schools in Jersey do so well is more down to the dedication of teachers in Jersey, than to anything enacted by the Education department.
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#7 Watermelon “..the firms are full of clubbable Vic boys”
Do you mean “clubbable” as in baby seals?
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@ Nathan Jordan #12
“…While it is true that such schools receive the same amount as a State school in terms of funding,…”
Do they? Figures from the JEP in the last few weeks claimed they received around £1,000pa/pupil; which if that’s the same for States school funding would not even pay the teacher’s salary in most classrooms, let alone anything toward equipment etc.
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J Lamb No. 5 I’ve no need to back up my opinion. As far as I’m aware, there is no law in Jersey which prevents folk from expressing themselves. Unless of course you have created one.
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No. 11 Parents who send their children to fee paying schools are contributing towards the education of their children. The States schools are completely free. Everyone pays taxes.
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No. 7 Watermelon You would prefer to send your child to a rural small school in Jersey. Therefore, you too are choosing to milk the system and avoid the lesser education of a large states school.
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Nathan’s post #12. You fall into the trap many do including the writer of the other letter published next to yours. The reality is there are too many schools in Jersey. There are empty spaces and extremely low class sizes in States schools, and running the current number of schools gives rise to fixed costs. When fees rise, many parents in the so called public schools may well move their children back to fully funded States schools thereby filling up the empty spaces and taking up the slack. Others who can afford it will pay more. The current situation of too many schools being funded by the States together with subsidising of ‘public’ schools in Jersey is an imbalance which requires urgent attention and is one of the contributing factors to States spending waste.
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J Lamborrari #5
I agree completely
Toastedteacakes #1 you are way out of order, and thats from me, a serial outspeaker.
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#17. You miss the point. States schools are not completely free. All Jersey taxpayers pay for the provision of education. The provision of education is mandatory, the subsidising of public schools is not. This subsidy is an additional burden to the Jersey taxpayer. There are more than enough non subsidised schools to go around for the population so why subsidise ?
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Toastedteacakes!!
A while ago there was an article on this website saying how the average wage was 25k or something around that number. Even then people were saying this was not correct and was too high.
Lets say 25k is correct. so you have a typical family. Mother Father and 2 children. Assuming both parents are earning 25k less 20% tax and 6%SS. So bringing home 37k. So there going to need to rent a 3 Bedroom house or Flat? thats easily costing in the region of 1,300 a month in rent. so that leaves 21k.
So now you expect these parents to choose to send their 2 children to private schools costing in the region of 3k a term. So that’s 12k a year per child. so 24k in total for scooling. Not including the cost of school supplies, uniform, Lunch money, potential child minder if both parents are working 9 to 5 to earn their 25k. so i reckon you could probably whack another 2k on that bill. so thats roughly 26k for schooling 2 children privately.
Now rememver we only have 21k left after getting appropriate housing and paying taxes. So clearly it doesnt work!!
So either go for states housing?
Go for public Schooling?
Work 2 Jobs?
or get really heavily into debt?
the second 2 options are never going to be advised and will only make life worse for the family and mostly the children. So you must rely on the states.
Which correct me if im wrong but is that what they we’re paying the tax and social for in the first place?
I dont rely on States funding for anything but i know people do and they do it cuz they have to to survive. Ok there are a few bad apples out there but dont tar them all with the same brush!
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CJ,
I must confess that I’ve not seen many empty classrooms in the island schools where I’ve studied and worked, the class size was under that recommended by the NUT (which is 30) but not excessively so – to which schools are you referring? I couldn’t find any evidence on the Education department’s website to support the notion that there are hugely more school places than potential students but the island’s population is projected to go up to 100,000.
NJ.
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@Toasatedteacakes
I went to states school until I was 18 and I wouldn’t change a thing about it. My Mother paid her taxes like everybody else so therefore paid towards my education. She never milked the system as you put it, as education should be free; if people want to pay go for it. Just because some people can’t it doesn’t make them “happy to survive on handouts”
The states school are amazing and do great things for the children of this island so why not send your children there?
PS
I have 15 GCSEs (C gradeand above) and 3 A levels and wouldn’t be where I am today without States Schooling.
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I thought the letter by Nathan Jordan was well put together and I am confused at some of the comments on this forum
Parents who choose to send their children to public schools pay fees to the school but they also pay taxes which contribute towards the education system as a whole – they don’t complain that they are paying twice to the education costs.
The subsidy is provided by the parents who are paying the fee thus saving the States a considerable sum not the other way round.
The comment that the states schools could accommodate all the additional public shcool students is nonsense. Teachers I know wish for smaller not larger classes.
Griping at those who through their own endeavours, good fortune, personal lifestyle choice or whatever who choose to send their children to public school is petty narrow minded bigotry that has nothing to do with saving the tax payer money (it wouldn’t)
There is a common tone amongst many of the contributors on the comment pages of this site who demonstrate a great deal of intolerance to anybody they perceive to be doing better than they are.
I have no problem about those parents who send their children to States Schools (why would I)! That is their choice. Let me make mine!
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No. 25 I am merely pointing out that too many folk seem to have an issue with those who attend fee paying schools. I am not quite sure whether it is the green-eyed monster at work in those who only attended States schools.
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No. 22 CJ There is never a choice as to who subsidises who. If your next door neighbour has 6 bins emptied each week and you have only 2 bins emptied would you not state that you are subsidising him. It’s as simple as that.
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#1 That’s brilliant, has to be a joke!
My parents weren’t rich but were willing to make sacrifices and send me to a fee-paying school in the hope I wouldn’t be as bored, I simply refused to go. I’d met kids from fee-paying schools and they weren’t more intelligent, they were however unbelievably precocious and a little pathetic. Of course, this won’t be true for all but it was certainly enough to put me off.
My cousin had no choice, her state school couldn’t deal with her intelligence and she had to go to a fee-paying school. Her friends were jealous that her parents first concern was for her, where their parents’ first concern was how they appeared to the other parents! She likened the social aspects of it (for kids and parents) to the theatre with all that ‘luvvy’ and ‘daaaahling’ and no real substance.
Now I have 5 friends who went to fee-paying schools and frankly it wasn’t worth their parents’ money. They’re equal, in their chosen field, with my other friends, but they lack common sense and life skills.
When it comes down to getting the grades I believe it’s less to do with which school you go to but rather natural intelligence coupled with how your parents encourage you and help you with your education.
UK politicians are a sign of where an elite school, elite university and a connected daddy get you. Does anyone really believe there’s no-one out their with a state-education who could do a better job?
If your child is a prodigy then I can understand sending them to a fee-paying school as state schools cannot cope with prodigies, but child prodigies are very rare. Personally I think parents who choose fee-paying schools are just wasting their money, but it’s their choice, and I’m sure some are more concerned about how it looks to their peers than whether or not it actually benefits their child.
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@Toastedteacakes
No you made a statement saying that anyone attending states schools had parents that milked the system and didn’t care about there child’s education.
I don’t care if people pay for education I believe that all the schools in Jersey are great, but you shouldn’t be penalised if you don’t pay.
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#26 “they perceive to be doing better than they are.” Does that assumption typify a fee-paying school attitude? (Same goes for the ‘green-eyed’ comment). You don’t know what others perceive. You could only make assumptions about it if everyone who could afford to send their child to a fee-paying school did exactly that, but they don’t. Maybe fee-paying schools should ask themselves what they are doing so wrong that they are actually putting off potential pupils.
#27 I understand your annoyance but following on from what I said to GCHq, maybe the schools themselves are putting people off from sending their children there. The best advert for a school is the children it turns out. When it comes to fee-paying schools they may well have some really lovely well-rounded children (although this is probably more to do with the parents than the school), but it is the precocious brats that make themselves visible. No loving parent is going to see precocious brats and want to send their child to the same school because no-one wants a precocious brat for a child.
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@ Toastedteacakes #28
“…If your next door neighbour has 6 bins emptied each week and you have only 2 bins emptied would you not state that you are subsidising him. It’s as simple as that…”
Yes you are, but if both of you have 6bins and each pay £6 in taxes, then you go and choose to have a private company collect your bins (because they do it quieter perhaps), and you pay them £6 while they get £2 from the Public for providing a service, then you are in effect subsidizing your neighbour.
However to give some credit to 428 CJ, if there is over capacity then the subsidy isn’t warranted.
But knowing that there isn’t over capacity, knowing of one family who live within sight of the local primary school, yet have to send one of the children to another school because there wasn’t room for her to go to school with her sister, I don’t think there is.
It has to be said that the quality of facilities and teaching is generally high in Jersey’s State school, but one huge, huge advantage to some parents of a fee paying school is that when there’s a disruptive child it can be more easily excluded from the non-disruptive class.
Whereas you can go into a State school and be told to F*** off by an 8year old, and the teachers are powerless to do a damn thing.
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No 29 Leah Holmes I have to disagree with you. In my experience, the majority of children attending fee paying schools receive a much better education whether they are less or more intelligent than those attending States schools.
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No.31 Leah Holmes I have yet to meet any precocious brats in Jersey and if I did I would not assume that they attended fee paying schools.
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It is true that at secondary there is a excess of places in one of the Secondary States schools..so the tax payer is paying twice. I think there are spaces in primary too, that’s why a school was closed down. Was in a yr 2 today with 14 children and know that Trinity is very often under subscribed. It’s a lovely school by all reports.
Sorry didn’t mean seal clubbable…more the Victoria club. Some of my best friends are Vic boys…
Fed up of all the tax payer talk though. Have seen friendships crumble because of the divisive nonsense of the Jersey educational way. My understanding is that tax is about social contract and decency not about paying for social ghettos. Pay in as you can, take as required be it for redundancy, carers allowance, schooling. Part of what makes a community. Have experienced all sectors and have to say agree with the comment that private is a waste of money. Parents so much more important, there is evidence to show that private can compensate (especially boarding) when that is lacking though. Maybe some people defend it to the death because that’s their rationale for miserable long hour jobs..who knows. Do think the tax burden ought to be increased so all can enjoy an equitable provision. I only know about rural schools because those are the ones I have experienced. I have heard that on several indicators some town schools do better.
I think that you would have to board your children to be stain free by post 1 logic. I think our parents liked having us around though close family boarded and found it fantastic so maybe I need to start saving now!
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#26. I don’t think anyone on this discussion has anything against allowing parents the choice between Jersey States and ‘Public’ schools. The issue is one of taxpayer money being used to subsidise ‘public’ schools. Also parents who can’t afford / choose not to send their children to ‘public’ schools can complain about the fact they are paying more in taxes as a result of the States subsidising these schools.
The point about there being enough schools arises from the C&AG’s Emerging Issues report, which identified potential savings which could be made, most of the ideas coming from the departmental ministers themselves. Unfortunately it is not nonsense.
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#28 As for the mandatory provision of education for all, you also highlight the mandatory collection of rubbish for all. States subsidy of ‘public’ schools is not a requirement in law. Its as simple as that.
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No 1. Toastedteacakes
Even the private schools on this island receive money from the States of Jersey.
So surely the only parents who aren’t milking the systems are the ones who home school their kids?
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Why should the tax payer pay for schooling when they don’t have any children? Jersey states have adopted a user pays policy now so this has to be the way forward doesn’t it?
With more money the states schools could employ more staff where needed to make the children’s preparation for the treadmill that is work more enjoyable. This is what schooling is for as far as I am concerned to make children drones for the work place.
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I agree with Toastedteacakes!
I believe that all non-fee-paying schools should be closed at once and those who cannot afford education (due to that atrociously bad habit of working for a minimum wage) should send their children out to work at the earliest possible age.
There are plenty of jobs for small children, their tiny hands do a much neater job than those of adults when it comes to hand-sewing footballs and shoes, etc.
The unwealthy could also consider sending their ‘tiny scroungers’ to work in Britains’s coal-fields, OOOPS sadly no, they were closed by Mrs T because they were not profitable (at the time gas and oil were at historically low prices and ‘clean-efficient-coal-burning-technology’ was considered a myth). Anyway, mining is a horrible, dangerous and dirty industry which was artificially kept going as a sort of branch of the social services. It was a far better idea to throw those singing Welsh miners out of the mines and into the dole queue. However, I’m sure the offsprings of the unwealthy would make perfect chimney sweeps, as long as they are underfed, plump children run the risk of getting stuck and we don’t want our homes smelling of dead children, now do we?
Oh, and what about using them to draw two-seater Rickshaws (drawing larger ones would make them sweat-like-horses and make the ride rather unpleasant-smelling for the elite). This transport-method would also allow Jersey’s politicians to debate for months (if not years) over whether these eco-friendly vehicles should be runner-pulled or bike taxis…and also whether or not the driver and passengers should wear helmets and seat belts (not to mention speed limits, and parking). Yes, there’s plenty of work for the ‘sons of toil’ so why in heaven’s name do they need an education?!
P.S. Toastedteacakes and I should seriously think about going into politics together. We would both make ‘First-class’ debate creators and we’d keep ourselves and all the other politicians in work forever!
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#39 Adrian, the taxpayer used schooling at some point in their life. Don’t get me wrong, in the UK I objected strongly to the fact that all taxpayers contributed to maternity pay, childcare etc, but school education has been mandatory for a long time now and we all used it. I just look on it as paying (restrospectively) for my schooling.
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#10 NJ
No need to feel sorry for me.
I think the teacher was trying to help me out as the kids were always teasing and mocking me.
Due to cicumstances I didn,t start school till I was 8 so the accent stayed with me and I still sometimes forget the H.
However slowly but surely I won the other kids round by charm and flattery.
Your so funny they would say to me.
Your so pretty/handsome/clever Etc I would say back,then they began to laugh with me not at me with my funny ways.
I have to thank Ireland for giving me the gift of the gab,the the luck and wit of the Irish,
but the short fuse i could have done without.
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No 36 CJ You certainly come across as a ‘jobs worth’ do you work in a States school by any stretch of the imagination.
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CJ By your philosphy, those who do not have children should pay less in the overall contribution towards education. Why should childless couples subsidise those parents who send their children to States schools.
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i thought u couldn’t home school in jersey?????
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I’d just like to offer an alternative to the idea that private schools in Jersey offer a Utopian Educational Paradise.
I wanted to go to a States School (as most of my friends from Primary school were and I didn’t/don’t care about educational status), but my parents made me go to De La Salle. I can’t think that my parents have wasted so much money before or since those seven years. My experience was one of poor teaching and run-down facilities.
Obviously there were a few exceptions, but I really don’t look back on my school days with any fondness.
I’ve recently been back to the school and it’s shocking how poor a state the place is in. When you compare this with, say, the facilities at Hautlieu or Haute Vallee, De La Salle looks like it’s been left 30 years behind.
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46 Bob Fleming If you spent all day observing the interior decor of the private school you attended it is little wonder you did not receive a worthwhile education from it.
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47. Toastedteacakes – very useful, thanks.
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@ Bob Flemming #46
Some of the States schools have very new buildings in very good order, but lack the quality of pupil/teaching environment that leads to a good education.
I’d rather 30 eager children and good teaching, in a run-down barn, than 28 eager children in a palace not learning anything because the 2 reprobates are using all the teacher’s time and attention.
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I personally would never swap my state school education for any public school education because IMHO (as Adrian would say) although I learned a lot academically I also learned plenty from my environment and fellow students.
You get to work with students of all backgrounds (which is a learning experience in itself) and you learn to appreciate that others may have not have easy lives. I seriously doubt this would be a learning curve to anyone at a public school!
I also liked the “mixed” classes because it enabled us to learn to converse and socialise with the opposite sex. Many public schoolboys I know didn’t learn these “social skills” for many years afterwards.
We actually used to pity the public schoolkids in their pompous uniforms with their even more pompous tutors……and none of the opposite sex to socialise with (wink, wink. nudge, nudge)
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49. J Lamborrari – I couldn’t agree with your more. However, when you don’t have nice facilities it makes you wonder what you’re paying for when the teaching is so poor (We didn’t have any reprobates either, so they can’t claim that their time was monopolised by dealing with them).
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No 50 B S Deluxe No doubt the public school kids pitied you as you gazed and wondered about their lifestyles.
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Toastedteacake. I can tell by the tone of your posts that you don’t have children.
I know that you feel you’re paying through the nose for other people’s children to go to school
All schools offer the same education. I went the D’Hautree, so did my brother. He left school with no qualifications. I went on to do really well at school and left with 11 CSE all grade 2′s and above, (not giving my age away am I) and 8 O’Levels, A’s and B’s. Now D’Hautree was always considered the roughest of the rough school. My best mate went to JCG, she’s the same age as me but she left school with 8 CSE’s all grade 2′s and under and no O’Levels.
Its not the school its the child. If a child is going to learn it doesn’t matter where they’re sent they will have a zest for education and will absorb it, like I did. If they don’t want to learn it doesn’t matter a blind bit where you send them they won’t learn.
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Oh and for the record. Most schools have a good strong PTA to subsidise the meagre income they are allocated each year in the budget.
Without a strong PTA to pay for equipment most of the schools, primary or secondary would be falling flat on their faces.
I’m in my daughter’s PTA and I work damn hard to ensure that her school has all it needs to better all the children’s education.
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#50 “We actually used to pity the public schoolkids in their pompous uniforms ”
My other half, who didn’t grow up in Jersey and never had to wear any uniform, bursts out laughing every September seeing the little newbies in their brand new gold edged blazers, gold ringed socks and those superb caps that would sell well nowadays in Essex.
She laughs even more when I tell her that we had to wear it to go to the cinema, in our free time, in the 1950s or risk detention or caning.
The only exceptions to this rule were visiting the beach or the harbour!
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#43 For your information I do not work for a States School, but do have a child in the Jersey education system. I am a Jersey taxpayer with a strong sense of fairness who is frankly fed up with having to subsidise inefficient structures within the States and spends a bit of time reading up on the subject matter so I can intelligently add to the debate. If that makes me a jobsworth in your opinion then so be it. Your #1 post encouraged me to enter into this debate and to allow me to put my opinion across. Society will accept an investment in the future by paying for an education system for all which is my ethos, not as you say in # 44. This is not milking the system. Where there are shortcomings in the provision of the service as required by law and society (for example use of temporaty huts as classrooms) why allow ‘public’ shools to divert funds away from these priorities ? You will have seen the ED is considering raising fees for ‘public’ schools thereby reducing the subsidy over the next few years so clearly I am not alone in my sentiment.
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eeyore unfortunately school qualifications are no guarentee of a good job afterwards.
I would say to all kids enjoy school whilst you are there. What comes next can feel like a life sentence and the holidays are very poor in comparison!
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Don’t you just love this middle class logic.
I was one of 5 kids. My mum and dad didn’t smoke, rarely drank, we didn’t have Sky nor did my parents get any state benefits.
Yet surprisingly they couldn’t afford to send us all to private schools. How strange!!!
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#54 eeyore you do raise an important point which may relate to some schools being perceived as better than others. Firstly good to see you are as passionate as I am about supporting your child’s school. Many would say a good Head, combined with a strong, well organised and active PTA linked together with close and frequent communications (be it emails, meetings, newsletters and the like) with a strong community link lead to a successful school with the infrastructure and stakeholders working together to make the learning experience something the children enjoy.
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No. 53 Eeyore I’m afraid your crystal ball is unclear as regards whether or not I have children. I am merely pointing out that we folk would prefer to live in a fair society.
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No.55 R G Bougourd I do not get your point about children going to school in a brand new uniform. I did not attend a private school and my parents afforded me a brand new uniform each year.
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Toastedteacakes: “No.55 R G Bougourd I do not get your point about children going to school in a brand new uniform.”
Not difficult, T.T., if you read the entire post including the quoted text. Newbies normally have brand new uniforms. No doubt one of the full time nitpickers among us will be telling us that he had an older brother whose uniform…etc.
By the way it’s B for be, not G for got!
RBB
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Toastedteacakes
I’m sure you’d like to think that……fortunately I was too busy enjoying my childhood to care a jot about those at public school.
You seem to me to be a very confused person. You argue that State school education should not be subsidised by the taxpayer and yet you yourself used the very same taxpayer funded education!!
There’s a word for that!
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Born Warrior (40)
Excellent Post. I haven’t had such a snigger in ages. Well done.
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Adrian (39)you could adopt the same policy to housing/subsidies/unemployed etc.Social Services are provided by the state for the community especially for Education/Health and Housing.
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Think Toastedteacakes and Bornwarrior should start up their own website and stop monopolising this one!
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Compared to what – private schools have 15 in the class state schools 30 plus!
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Andy@67 – totally wrong on both counts.
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Toastedteacakes (1) Children are sent to States schools by parents who prefer to milk the system.
Too true. Just look at all those ‘oh so poor’ lawyers, accountants and sundry professionals who send their children to the two Jersey Collages, all be it with a miniscule top up fee.
Toastedteacakes, I agree with your plee that they should pay more.
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Toasted what’s its is a wind up merchant, don’t bite! I know three kids who went to Vic, one is in prison, 1 makes surfboards for a living (which there is nothing wrong with) leaving with 1 GCSE and the other committed suicide about a month ago. I am a Senior Audit Manager on £70k a year and went to St Lawrence, Grainville and Hautlieu. Proof that if you want to learn and get on in life you will do it whichever school you attend. END OF.
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No. 63 B S Deluxe I would point out that my perants milked the system by sending me to a non-fee paying school. I would have preferred an education at a private school as it is much more superior.
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No.69 Mark you have got the wrong end of the stick. My comment refers to the fact that folk complain about children being educated at privat schools. The fact remains that the perants of private school children are paying through their taxes and with a very high private fee each quarter.
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No 70 Fred you certainly graduated from States school with a big head and a chip on your shoulder.
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Toastedteacakes
school attendance is compulsory !
How can sending ones child to State school be milking the system ?
Or are you suggesting we revert to pre “education for all” times ?
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“Its not the school its the child. If a child is going to learn it doesn’t matter where they’re sent they will have a zest for education and will absorb it, like I did. If they don’t want to learn it doesn’t matter a blind bit where you send them they won’t learn.”
Believe me, we all went to school with a desire to learn, but when subjects that are initially interesting have the life and “zest” squeezed out of them, after a while you stop listening. I was actually taught Maths and English by my Dad and learned Geography by reading atlases, so uninformative and lifeless were our classes.
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@53, How can you tell by a tone that someone has no kids?
also i believe that education is affected by too many variables to have one solution to fix all of the problems (good teachers, good students, freinds, parents, facilities ect) its lucky dip on the right circumstances that decide how well educated you are.
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No 70, “End of”, yup we can see your schooling left you with a great mastery of the language. I wouldn’t let you near a client facing role.
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&73 – and a far superior intellect and grasp of the English language. I also said END OF.
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No 77 Fred A superior intellect as opposed to whom? Freddie Flinstone?
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Toastedteacakes (72) Mark you have got the wrong end of the stick.
Sorry but I think I have the right end of the stick. The two Collages are nothing other than States schools with a top up fee you are not living in the real world. If you think they charge a ‘very high private fee’, try a genuinely private school, your eyes will water.
What stick are you trying to grasp? Know your stick before trying to compare it with other sticks. I have been there and know the difference.
Strip away the States subsidy and the Collages offer little more than extra music, sport, some dusty gowns and a dash of status. The States still manage the Collages and pay the wages; they are States schools!
But you are still correct in your plea that the parents should pay more, you have not got it all wrong.
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#73 Going by your writings above you seem to be the one with a chip on your shoulder, about what I do not know. I guess it’s much easier for you to assume that everyone wanted to go to a private school. If you do have children and they do go to a private school please do not do them the disservice of teaching them that State school kids are just jealous of them, you’ll just turn them into horrible children.
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Fred (70) Could not agree more.
All the States schools, including the Collages have the full spectrum of society. That includes parents who spend time incarcerated.
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Fred, you could have made your point without disclosing your job title and annual salary. I know toastedteacakes may have provoked you, but you now come across as being rather arrogant, which is perceived as the result of a private rather than states school education.
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Think it is time to put this one to bed now.Interesting comments but has gone on too long and starting to get nasty.
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fred” I know three kids who went to Vic, one is in prison, 1 makes surfboards for a living (which there is nothing wrong with) leaving with 1 GCSE and the other committed suicide about a month ago.”
I knew there was a reason my parents didn’t send me there!
However it wouldn’t surprise me if you would have been earning more money now if your parents had done the “right thing” and paid for a private education.
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‘I am a Senior Audit Manager on £70k a year and went to St Lawrence, Grainville and Hautlieu.’
I know two stone masons and a plumber that graduated from St Helier Boys and they would view your £70k a year as more than a bit sad.
You should be making at least £200K to keep up!
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@85 LOL, I’m just fine on £70k thanks Adrian and am VERY glad not to have gone to Hogwarts
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I am really confused to what point Toastedteacakes is trying to make.
States schools are bad?
Everyone should have to pay for education?
Or we should have to pay more for education?
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camelia 66 “Adrian (39)you could adopt the same policy to housing/subsidies/unemployed etc.Social Services are provided by the state for the community especially for Education/Health and Housing.”
Indeed you could couldn’t you? The point I am making is that the states now have a user pays policy for most things they do. Why should schooling not fall under this remit?
Those that send their children to private schools are subsidising the rest as without these schools who only get a 50% subsidy from the states the states schools would cost more! So I would have to say those choosing the cheaper option are being subsided by those who are paying for a private education.
Also remember that these parents are also paying for schooling via taxes they are therefore paying twice unlike the rest. They due not get a rebate for not using states schools do they? Surely they should if they are providing their own education for their children? Would you not agree with this comment?
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No 81 Leah Holmes you certainly jump to a lot of conclusions, all of what you say is incorrect. the fact that you refer to Private School children as precocious brats leads me to believe that you have a green eyed problem yourself.
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Fred No 87 There was no requirement for you to attend a Private School as no doubt you introduced the ‘Hogwart’ mentality at the States school you attended.
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#90 What would I have to be green-eyed about, our local private school (like many) had a drugs problem. I had the choice twice to go to private school, I didn’t like the types of kids I had met there so I turned it down. I have met plenty private school’d precocious brats, that’s what put me off, nothing worse than a precocious brat frankly.
I don’t see the point in jealousy, make your own life how you want it to be and you only have yourself to blame if it doesn’t work out, but you keep kidding yourself that I’m jealous if it helps you out
It’s the typical unintelligent response from someone who assumes that private school education makes someone superior (despite all evidence otherwise).
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#87 fred
Indeed. I wonder if all the electricians and plumbers went to private school, they seem to do extremely well for themselves.
I have always hated ceremony and I hate tradition when it is purely for tradition’s sake (i.e. if there really isn’t anything sensible behind it). I can hardly imagine that I would have survived one day at private school.
Toastedteacake wants to deny us our own opinions. I made it clear I am fully accepting of a parent’s right to send their child to a private school (I just wouldn’t do it myself) but he can’t accept my right to not think private school is superior. It’s a real shame, but then people who think they are superior don’t like being faced with those of us who believe that all people are equal.
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#88 Me too, I think it’s just that he is superior to us, us mere little humans couldn’t possibly understand his point.
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No 91 Leah Holmes I stated that a private school education was superior to that of a States school. I did not state that a child attending a private school becomes more superior. You continue to object to private school children based on the fact that a couple of children you knew were precociuos brats.
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TTC Sadly the Harry Potter books didn’t get released until after my school years, so your argument (like the rest of them) is as sadly flawed as your good self.
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I went to private school. I hated every minute of it. Many kids I schooled with have done nothing with their lives and many have become incredibly successful.
I can’t comment on other people experiences, only my own, but, despite not enjoying school, the very fact that I have that school named on my CV helped me everytime I applied for a job, perhaps not so much now, but certainly in my younger days when I was starting out in my career.
This is not a Jersey thing, this is the world over. Just as attending Oxfoed or Harvard would in the UK or US.
We all want to give our kids the best possible starts in life, and I will do the same for mine as my parents did for me. I may not have enjoyed school, but, thanks to that school and the opportunities that have come my way since, the last 25 years have been incredible, the best thing of all, the next 25 look just as good!
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I went to a States School in Liverpool. Half of the year (of over 300 pupils) had been expelled or left by the time we reached 15 years old. Only 20 of the year went onto to do A-Levels and of those only 10 went to university, with about 5 getting a degree.
I am now a lawyer.
Where does my statistic fit into all of your analyses?
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#95 Now who’s assuming? I didn’t say I object to all private school kids, I clearly stated that I’m sure there are some perfectly normal and kind kids but the bratty ones make themselves very visible. They put me off going, they put others off going, and yes, I got to know them and disliked them before finding out they went to a private school. It made me consider that maybe private schools teach the kids to think they are superior to others, but as an adult I’ve come to the conclusion that it’s probably more the parents that are doing that.
I don’t believe a private school education is better because, as I also said previously, I believe the key part of a kids education is parental input and encouragement. My parents would have wasted their money sending me to private school because I would have got the same grades (if not lower grades), and would still have gone to Glasgow to study Medicine. Nothing about attending private school would have changed my education after school, there aren’t any such things as ‘private universities’ to go onto so what’s the point?
But if you want to waste your money and send a child to private school I have no issue with the fact that it is entirely your choice.
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Protagoras said;
“Man is the measure of all things: of things which are, that they are, and of things which are not, that they are not”
Sadly for Jersey it seems that we have a new version;
“Money is the measure of all things: of things which are, that they are, and of things which are not, that they are not”
Too many people in the island confuse their material wealth with their value as human beings.
Education should be about developing a sense of yourself as a human being, moral and social values and an understanding of the world and society as a whole.
What is the point of schools as sausage machines that churn out people who do not seem to care how their money is made as long as there is plenty of it?
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One thing is for sure, the kind of teachers attracted to work in private schools are there for an easy life. It’s scary that there is still such a boring, regimental and didactic style of teaching going on in these stuffy victorian establishments. State schools attract teachers who care about children and want to give something to society. I know where I’d send my children.
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#100 Well said Pip. Unfortunately people who do bow to the money God seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that not all of us do. They assume it must be to do with jealousy, we know we just have a different perspective as to what is important in life.
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98. Big Mitch – I am now a lawyer. Yes, and?
Hold on whilst I arrange the ticker-tape parade.
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Simply stating a fact Bob, an example, perhaps you havent done so well in life?
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Toastedteacakes (95) You continue to object to private school children based on the fact that a couple of children you knew were precociuos brats.
Were you a precociuos brat? Or just suffer from a asymmetrical view of the world?
Private, States subsidized, or States funded; extra resources will have a tendency to facilitate a higher standard of education. On that nobody disagrees.
What we object to is you arrogant assumption that “Children are sent to States schools by parents who prefer to milk the system”
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Big Mitch, now why did I expect you to respond in that fashion?
There are ways of stating facts. The fact that you gave you fact its own paragraph suggests you think you’re rather flip-hot (to quote Father Ted).
I’ve done alright thanks, but don’t feel the need to disclose my job title or annual salary to anybody to have self-worth. Respect isn’t acquired through status in my book.
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101, what tripe you spout. Sadly the state schools have to follow the regimented national curriculum which breaks learning down into little gobbits so that kids can’t see the links across their subjects and result in the universities having to spend a good year or so getting them up to speed of 20 years ago. Private schools have more flexibility in how they teach and what they teach. Certainly how you describe it doesn’t bare any resemblance to what goes on at the likes of St Pauls or Winchester. I don’t make any comments on the worthiness or motivations of teachers in either the private or public sector because that would be a flailing unsubstantiated generalisation. I do know that during my 7 years at state secondary school no teachers were ever sacked during that time and there were some pretty poor ones there. I would call that one indicator of an “easy life” as you describe it.
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#98 Weird how it’s so different from one place to another. Our 5th year (the final year required for university entrance) had approx. 90 pupils, around 1/3 stayed on for a 6th year. I’ve caught up with a large number of them and heard about some others. They’ve either completed degrees in very respectable subjects or gained professional qualifications and started up their own business. Only 3 left before 5th year, one is a famous fashion designer, one in the RAF and the other unfortunately died in an accident while still 16.
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#101 teachers in both Private and States schools are good. I have children at a private school and the teachers are not lazy they are extremely committed hard working professionals.they put in huge amounts of afterschool/ pres school teaching as well. My children are there because it is a school that offers a christian education, and also because the state school that would have suited them was full when we returned from being off island for a few years. I have had experience of both kinds, I do not think that nice shiny schools improve a childs education just mearly makes them more comfortable.
Bob as for De La Salle you obviously need a trip to specsavers as you did not notice that the Primary school is a fairly new building it is lovely and I am sure they would have welcomed you to have a look around at their open day, it was advertised.
As for the secondary school you didn’t notice the building contractor signs and the fact that the old 6th form block is no longer. The swimming pool gym block is covered in scaffolding too. Don’t forget they do not get the same money that say Vic or JCG get from the states, yet their fees are around the same. they have to manage on that. Last year the states didn’t allow VIC and JCG to charge as much in fees as they were going to they held it at cost of living, I would imagine that won’t happen this year. Vic and JCG are states schools they are not private they are single sex selective fee paying states school.
I know children from both private and states schools and there are good and bad, polite and damn right rude in both types at times. As with general society it’s a mixture. I went to a states school and it was not very good at all, but times have changed and thankfully states schools are much better than they were in my day.
Yes I also agree, parents paying fees are also paying twice. If I stopped sending my children to private school I would be £1414 a term each better off, and my children would be educated in the States system at no additional cost to me. Excepting of course the ratio of child to teacher would increase by one in each class.
If we all did that the states would have to employ a great deal more teachers, then we may start having to pay more tax for it.
Nathan
As for the £9000 in grant from the states for university sorry but that only applies to those that don’t earn above the means tested limit to the rest of us, its going to cost £14000 a year for an average uni to send a child if you include fees and living costs etc. I know as friends of mine are paying it, they do not take into account other children or your mortgage costs not a big mortgage these days but still paying for another 10 years yet.
20 means 20,GST increases removal of soc security cap etc etc is going to hit the fee paying parents the most, those on SOJ salaries have 6% school fee increase this year and about the same last,yet no pay increase. A 2 % increase this year doesn’t really cover, the extra those in this bracket are paying . You could start to see the states schools getting somewhat bigger if what ever they think of next, hits the same group. (I don’t know what level it is. Is it middle income Jersey or high paid Jersey )? That seems depend on what you earn yourself as to how you view it I think.
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No 96 Fred Harry Potter books may not have been written during your school time but warts on hogs have always existed
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No 108 Leah Holmes It is good to note your rightous attitude as a human being. I assume your lack of concern for money will lead you to donate most of your earnings to a worthwhile cause
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#111 Toastedteacakes, what’s righteous about stating what my peers from school went on to do? In case you didn’t read the first 3 characters it was a response pointing out the contrast towards how another non-fee-paying school did. I would suggest it goes to show that it simply isn’t all about the school!
But you keep kidding yourself that private school is automatically better, I’m going to keep believing it has a heck of a lot more to do with the parents.
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#111 And yes, assuming that none of my friends and family are struggling when my time comes, ALL my money will go to carefully chosen charities. That’s not righteous, it’s common sense! Are you going to get buried with your money stuffed in your pockets or something?
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Specs @ 109.
Most people seem to write their comments on asusmptions or hearsay. You have obviously based your comments on experience and fact and this is most refreshing. Thank you.
Going off on a tangent though, I always wonder why so much is made of people bowing down to the so called money God. What does this mean?.
Should I feel guilty because I have a good job that pays well. Isn’t this why we all go to school and/or college to make something of our lives.
I have worked hard to get to where I am and to provide the lifestyle that my family and I enjoy, and I’ll be damned if anyone is going to make me feel bad about it.
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No 111 Leah Holmes I’ve no idea where I’ll stuff my money as long as those people who milk the system dont get their hands on it.
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#114 “I have worked hard to get to where I am and to provide the lifestyle that my family and I enjoy, and I’ll be damned if anyone is going to make me feel bad about it.”
That’s it, big bean, the ultimate level of success is to be so successful that nobody else matters. You sure live in the right place to have people cheering you on! Even the unsuccessful are dumb enough to worship the concept.
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I have children in both the private and States sectors so feel I can comment reasonably knowledgably.
Firstly, all schools have good and bad teachers. What a terribe sweeping comment to say teachers go into the private sector for an easy life! A good teacher in any area will give a commitment to a child and that takes hard work, time and dedication.
Whilst private schools are subsidised by the tax payer, they are not subsidised as much as a States school pupil. My understanding is that the child I have in States schooling is costing the economy more than the one in Private education.
Both my children have a lovely group of friends they spend time with and interestingly enough the financial position of each group are very similar – some wealthier parents, some single parents and both groups have parents renting in the private sector or living in States accommodation.
It is too easy to generalise and the level of unsubstantiated comments on here are an indication in themselves, not of the school that someone attended…but on how much attention they paid to their lessons!
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#114 Big Bean, no worries, having money doesn’t automatically mean you worship it! The attitude that gets displayed on here regularly is one of ‘having money makes me superior’ now THOSE people do worship the money God!
It’s not to do with how much money people have it’s their attitude towards it.
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