States deficit to hit £64m
Wednesday 10th March 2010, 3:00PM GMT.
The States deficit is forecast to rise to £64m
JERSEY’S expenditure is expected to outstrip income by at least £64 million next year, Treasury Minister Philip Ozouf has warned.
The Senator has also revealed that the deficit is forecast to be £49 million in 2012.
He released the figures to the States in response to a question by Senator Jim Perchard, who asked both for the latest projections and whether ministers were behind his drive to cut costs across all departments.
Senator Ozouf has told his Council of Ministers colleagues to investigate how they can make two per cent budget cuts next year and three per cent cuts the year after.
Senator Perchard’s question was just one which focused on the controversial spending review, which aims to cut £50 million a year from States spending by 2012.
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Great picture to accompany the story, presumably this is where some of the cuts can be made, we can have 3 men watch while 1 digs and reduce manpower by 50%.
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D’oh!
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Anyone surprised? All our government is good at is spending our money.
The states members used to only get paid their phone bills. Would any of the states members care to do that this year to save money since they all say they want to best for the island?
Spending £5 million on that farcical Esplanade roadworks wasn’t such a good idea since there was nothing wrong with it in the first place.
The best thing this government can do is disappear. The animals at the Zoo could run it better.
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‘Don’t worry dear! the gullible public will pick up the tab through 20 means 50 and 10% GST’ (they think its going to be 12% so we will make them happy before the next elections so that we at least will maintain our incomes’).
Urination and Brewery comes to mind.
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The hole gets bigger and blacker.
The States spend days debating whether wearing cycle helmest should be compulsory.
Jonathan Swift would have got at least one book out of this mess!
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And the biggest laugh was that the JDA and other new dithering deputies coming into the States in the last elections said they wanted to scrap GST on food or altogether. It doesn’t take a Masters in mathamatics to work out how much extra that would of cost the Island on top of this. Last one out please turn out the lights now because this Government doesn’t have a hope in hell of saving such sums of money in the future.
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Maybe the senators and politions should work for free for a year or so like they did in the war…
oh that’s right because the reason the island is in so much trouble is because they’re all too busy lining their own pockets to care about the actual people paying their wages…
why don’t they stop giving 16 year olds a house and an income for getting up the duff… a simple “you haven’t contributed to society so you have to sponge off your parents” should suffice…. we’ll soon see the number of teenage pregnancies drop
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The money is spent by the States and civil service….trips here there and everywhere,all in the name of who knows what….smoke and mirrors.just look at the overspends..who get’s fired for them..NO One….look at the most expensive options taken…who gets fired….No One.look where their pitiful gestures of cuts are pointed,patient transport and frontline staff…6 hours to be seen in A.7E,at the general,people suspended on full pay for years, no explanation to those of us who paid,the private sector could not afford such foolishness and ineptitude.yet the people put up with it…what is the matter with you people these failed mob are running us into the deck and we stand by and watch..this C.O.N is the bigest mistake we have ever allowed..it must be disbanded and a version of committee Govt returned…the boy Macon is spot on on this one…let’s all back him.For currently we are wasting far more than we need to raise.
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The Wizard of Oz will have to pull a lot of tricks out of his hat to sort this one out.
He might even fall down the hole like Alice in wonderland.
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@ lula #6
Even if you added the cost to the taxpayer of all the teenage pregnancies together for this century so far I don’t think it’ll be £64million.
“…the reason the island is in so much trouble is because they’re all too busy lining their own pockets to care about the actual people…”
I disagree, I think some of them care too much about looking like they’re caring, and being loved by the electorate, when they should be making hard choices that people may not like the idea of (GST for example).
I don’t think many of the States Members see their position as pocket lining; I can only think of one that’s given that impression; Dep. Pitman, on the night she was elected.
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I don’t think it is the few who choose to get pregnant to get out of home making the difference. The island has long been run on credit…same as everywhere else in the world…only now your discovering it and don’t like it. Jersey is run by a load of grumpy old men who are not looking to the future or the people but spending the future as we speak….your going down Jersey!
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Terry Le Sueur was a physics teacher at De La Salle, later a chartered accountant and then the Island’s Chancellor – alas he was no Iron Chancellor. Educated at Oxford University he should be switched on, but he and the new Treasury Minister Philip Ozouf, seem to have failed to see this deficit on the horizon. It doesn’t really inspire me into believing these guys are going to sort out this problem any time soon.
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How about the £30/40 million a year paid to wealthy landlords, some who own over 100 properties by way of rent rebate?
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Hang your heads in shame, all States members. I hope you read these comments and can explain exactly why we are in this mess. It has nothing to do with the loss of corporation tax companies etc. It’s just as everyone knows, as all here have said – you have been too weak, too stupid to stop spending our money, so blind as to believe that the “golden goose” would carry on laying forever and you could just carry on merrily wasting,wasting not spending, our money.
Just when will any of you have the gumption to address the public employees payroll, not just the pay rises but the impact on the pension funds. For decades you have had your heads in the sand. AS Cyril Le Marquand can not come back, maybe, judging by his tough words today, Gordon Brown, if he’s out of work come May, will be able to come here and take the tough decisions you have all ducked for so long.
When will you do what we all must – live within our means. And stop pretending we must play the role of a world power.
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Its all well and good to warn of a known deficit, after all the writing has been on the wall for long enough. . .
What is required, and I don’t feel the present numpties have the ability or the brains to instigate, is complete overhaul of States procedures. Cull the lazy works, the ‘got my day in’ crowd. This attitude is rife amongst not only workers but managers also. Hold departmental heads responsible if projects go over budget, unless there are exceptional circumstances. If not cut their wages and the spend on the next project until each and every department is working efficiently.
Reward Departments, and I mean the workers if projects come in under budget. This will require all duplication of jobs / tasks in separate sections to be cut, and yes departments will have to work together.
The Sates are the only people who can control what and how they spend, so stop telling the electorate about the Black Hole, ‘Oh woe is me’, take positive action and do something about it now!!!!
That is if they have any idea where to start . . .
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At least our Treasury Minister is beginning to come clean. Of course if we look at actual versus planned expenditure the hole is £100m. If the States plan to make £50m in expenditure cuts, guess where the other £50m is coming from ? Yes, us the taxpayer. The figures may be palatable if there wasn’t the prevalent waste existing as a cancer throughout the very structure of the States. Unfortunately it is too late to seek for a little bit here and a little bit there over three years. The wall is coming and Jersey will smash right into it. Just look at Guersney and the IOM.
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Re #12, I thought that the rent rebate scheme was a bad move when introduced, as it distorts the market.
With interest rates at an all time low, now would be an appropriate time to scrap the rent rebate scheme and mortgage interest relief on domestic mortgages and allow both the rental market and owner occupier markets to adjust as necessary.
(Incidentally, I am a landlord and also there is a mortgage on our private residence
)
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Couldn’t the J.C.B. just dig a bigger hole and put all the States goverment in it, because that would be money well worth spent!
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Local people doing local things for local reasons. My god! the bubble that is Jersey. The Liliputians are certainly running the show here. The League of Gentlemen was a good comedy but when it plays out in real life …well! its a different story.
You crack me up you guys, you really do
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Stop all benefits and give out contraception. Way too many prams around and us who work have to pay for those who push !
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Here is a million pounds savings worked out in under a minute:
Get rid of 12 constables (saving £510,000), and reduce remaining states members pay to £30,000 (saving £500,000).
If only I could be a high paid civil servant on 150K per year to help Mr Ozouf then I could come up with some more genius ideas such as this.
Please note, the honour of being a states member did not used to have the benefit of pay.
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I wonder if the States of Jersey will print Jersey banknotes to pay for this deficit, similar to the Bank of England.
(I’m not suggesting that is a good idea. Probably the Bank of England would stop them nowadays, but I understand this was done successfully in Guernsey many decades ago.)
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With regard to the “New Man” in Treasury why is his name being with held? I thought that Ministerial government want was supposed to be transparent?????
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@ Overpopulated #12
“…How about the £30/40 million a year paid to wealthy landlords, some who own over 100 properties by way of rent rebate?…”
Are you suggesting that to sort out the deficit the SoJ stop Income Suppport?
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Look folks, there are two options here.
1) Increase taxation, by upping GST to 6% and getting some more from the 1(1)ks; or
2) Big cuts to spending in health, education and social security.
The deficit is £64m – we won’t cover that by saving a few thousand here or there (though every penny counts).
And yet the fools in the States believe that they can afford to spend a day discussing whether to make cycle helmets compulsory.
If you all want me to step in and save the Island I am happy to stand for Senator next year.
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At least he will “robustly oppose any attempt to increase GST above 3%.”
Well that is what he said in his election manifesto…
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I think the photo says it all…
How many overpaid states workers does it take to dig a hole…hmmm 1 in a JCB and 6 men to stand and watch!!!
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It was the Finance who made the money. I dout the States are spending more money now. Finance industry is in decline. It would have been great to find in the see mineral resources… The only resource left is low tax.
…next is going to be inflation therefore house prices will go down. The prosperous island is destined to enter the real World.
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Thanks for that Mr Ozouf, how about you repay your massive expenses to plug 0.0089% of that black hole!
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Im with Lula, Stop giving the irresponsible and anti-social such an easy time. Stop giving teenage mothers new flats with all new appliances, stop giving people who have never paid in, benefits that the people who do work may rely on some day.
Then stop states building projects that the majority dont want to see happen, a change freeze on development island wide.
Then review what these fat cats who do nothing but have long, pointless meetings in the states are getting paid and we will soon see a difference.
Like yesterdays report on a mystery man being bought in to help sort out Jerseys finances. I wonder how much he is being paid and why is there nobody in the states who could have done this anyway?
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Social Security needs to step up and research more on where the money that they are giving away is going to.
Cut down on road works as really they aren’t necessary, the roads are fine and will be fine for a couple of years.
States members work for a year or 2 for nothing, as they claim they are working for the island and not for themselves.
Get Guernsey to pay for half of the new incinerator if they are using it.
There, that’s a good few million clawed back with out us taxpayers having to pay.
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The States may well have to come up with some pretty smart ideas if they’re going to sort this out.
It doesn’t really surprise me that this is happening : tourism has been in decline for too long and now the golden goose of the local economy – finance – is also in decline.
If this deficit represents a short-term hiccup, a sort concomitant to the recession, then this shouldn’t really constitute a real problem; the Island could then build up financial surpluses in the good years to compensate for this.
However, if the finance sector does not recover, I feel the Island could well be heading for financial ruin – what then, States members?!
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#25 I agree with your two options. The only problem is that there is no point us giving the States more of our money unless we can be sure they are capable of looking after it. We could give them £64 million more for it to be lost on projects that can no longer go ahead or exchange rates.
I am happy to pay more tax but only once they have proved they have a grasp on handling it.
I also agree with Lula. While it is not a massive cost at the moment it is still worth halting the process now. Statistically these kids will just follow in their mothers’ footsteps (getting pregnant even earlier). The only way to halt it is to prove to people that any child they have will be their own responsibility and it won’t be up to the rest of us to house them and pay for their basic needs.
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Peter #28
“It was the Finance who made the money. I dout the States are spending more money now. Finance industry is in decline.”
And your proof of that is….?
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The proof is in the figurs. JERSEY bank deposits were down by 20 per cent while the value of funds under administration fell by 30 per cent in 2009.
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#25 & 33. Although I absolutely disagree with increasing taxes, another way to raise income is to increase Social Security Contributions. I’m sure the Coucil of Ministers is looking at that already. With cost cutting one would naturally look to the big spending departments, however all areas of the States in my view would need to contribute their bit to savings and stopping waste. Another way to cut costs is to hold departments to multi year plans (annual budgeting is a nonsense) and to consider what the states does, whether it needs to do it, who pays for it whether it can be done better, more effeciently somewhere else.
As a taxpayer I would hope the CoM is already looking at this…
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#34 & #35. Absolutely right to look at funds under deposit and administration. Also note the funds under investment management, although reporting a 4.4% rise, this has to be considered against the backdrop of a 22% rise in markets over the period. It really does look to me that these point to a structural change and a decline in the finance industry as we know it.
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The whole idea of a democracy is that we vote folks in to do what’s best for All of us,they are paid by us to be accountable…. the taxes raised are to be used for the common good…but not here.. what the people want is disregarded by this Cartel we have allowed to spring up called the C.O.M..or CON as I call them,they operate in an Autocratic way,negating democracy..and rub it in when their chief says things like “I don’t care if 100 Thousand people vote against it” ,You’re going to have it any way, so endeth fairness and hope,the only way forward now is dismantling this Govt and restoring the old committee system where proper checques and balances are in place guarding against this megalomania that has allowed the current hideous state of play…we can not blame it on the recession…but the profligate way they have handled the housekeeping of this dear island. The Jerseyman was notorious for his carefulness with his money to the point of being teased about it,we have sleepwalked into this situation..and like the story of the kings suit of clothes,bought into the unreality…time for an awakening and a rapid return to sanity and good old common sense.
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The structural deficit is not £64 M. and is no were near it. The question was asked by Jim ( I own most of Rozel and St Martin ) Perchard, prompted by his mate , the Wizard of Oz(“Wizard”),of our Dear Philip.
Put this simply for some folk here. The Structural deficit is our current account. We may be overdrawn, or prehaps not, The problem is we cannot believe the Wizard, as he continually misrepresents our finances. Our saving accounts stands at near £1 Billion, who saves when you are Broke ?
The real problem is the expenditure of our government, not on public services, but too ambitious projects which we cannot afford nor need. Cavern under the fort, steam clock, incinerator, cutting the old town off from the New, now wanting to reverse it. The £40 Million given to developers at the waterfront because they did not have the guts to see off a speculator who paid £200 for the site in 1963.
Constant government failure, now perpetuated by the Wizard, is the cause of deficit, not happened by hard working middle Jersey, who keep the wealthly elite of Mr Ozouf and his ilk in power.
You cannot put off the election for ever Philip.
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Bernard #3, and Lula #7 you both suggest that states members should work for nothing. Annie du Feu #21 suggests a 25% pay cut. I have a suggestion – you stand for the states at the next election and promise to give the salary away to any good cause. If you don’t get elected promise to do it anyway as a point of principle. Impractical? Can’t afford the rent or the mortgage? There’s a saying ‘put up or shut up’.
We used to have members that were unpaid and the States was full of wealthy people that didn’t reflect the population and was seriously undemocratic.
50 states members x £40K salary =£2M a year. All states members would have to work for nothing for 30 years just to clear this years defecit!
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The Treasury Dept has advertised for a personal assistant for the Treasury Minister Senator Philip Ozouf. It really is unbelievable that after the “get tough” on spending speech from Senator Ozouf he is now employing even more staff for his own department.
Here’s the new one’s just advertised for Accountant – Treasury Management £55k for 37hr week. And Capital Accountant £63k again for a 37hr week.
Even in tonight’s jep jobs are being advertised for a legal adviser with a wage of £96K. Treasury are also advertising for a finance and accountancy manager with a wage bill of £63K for a 20 hr week! Yup that’s right folks…and that’s why were bankrupt.
Jersey simply can not afford to keep employing senior civil servants on these wages…..this will only lead to further increases in taxes….yes folks that’s you and me paying for it yet again…..
Senator Ozouf is making no effort to stem this flood of jobs in our public sector. These jobs are costing us a fortune and I do not believe for one minute that we don’t have people in Jersey that are capable of doing these jobs. If they are needed at all that is.
Perhaps Senator Ozouf could start by getting rid of his new assistant that we are now paying £31,445 for.
As a taxpayer I want to see real savings made…which as you can see is still not being done. Let’s hope if a bye election is called that new blood gets elected with some idea of what the real world is about!
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This deficit works out at £711 per person, on top of 20% we already pay per year. I already pay over £5,000 per year to the States in income tax.
WHAT ARE THEY SPENDING THE MONEY ON!!!!!
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Wilson – Many members of the states have income from investments coming in that would cover this – many more also have full time jobs doing something else and they play politics in their spare time… and no I am fully aware it wouldn’t close the gap but they put us into this mess – why should the taxpayer have to give up more money to resolve the issue when those responsible are still being paid almost double the wage I get (and i work in finance!)
40k a year… for wasting 64mill a year
justice?
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Wilson Riou
Let’s look at the older members of the states and the more wealthy ones. Chances are their mortgages are all paid and they have a healthy bank account, so why give them £40,000 a year? They will all say that they are in government not for the money. OK, then don’t give them any.
They have all gotten us in the mess that we are now in and yet they are not accountable for! If you made lots of mistakes at work, you would be sacked. Fact. They have messed this island up and people like you are just letting them get away with it or even worse supporting them.
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I resent paying tax to people incompetent of spending it properly. How many times have we dug up the avenue, evidently hiring more than necessary? What next, another pillar with a toad on top?
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How about we pay the members of states based on their performance? If they do a good job over the course of the year, they get paid well. If they mess everything up, they get the sacked and not paid a penny. Based on the performance of this current government, they would be paying us!
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40 Wilson Riou
“We used to have members that were unpaid and the States was full of wealthy people that didn’t reflect the population and was seriously undemocratic.”
Apart from paying these members now what exactly is the difference???
As far as I see it, decisions made do not reflect the population and it is seriously undemocratic!!
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Lula you said ‘Many members of the states have income from investments coming in that would cover this – many more also have full time jobs doing something else and they play politics in their spare time… ‘
You’d have to provide evidence because I think you are incorrect about the ‘many’. The Register of Members’ Interests would inform you – its completely transparent.
I’m surprised you think that many are able to live off investments, since you work in finance you are aware that there was a stock market collapse in the aftermath of the credit crunch aren’t you? Many people lost their capital not just the income. Those with money on bank deposit earn little more than 0%.
You asked if them getting paid double your salary was justice – no its life! Many millions in the developing world live on $1 per day. You earn 54 times more than that, if you want justice give your salary to Oxfam.
Just a thought you could double your salary if you stand (and win) at the next elections!
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BS Deluxe #47
You said ‘As far as I see it, decisions made do not reflect the population and it is seriously undemocratic’
Democracy is giving all the right to stand for office and all the right to vote. That’s what we’ve got. The fact that you or I question some or all of their decisions and that they don’t keep everybody happy all of the time is not undemocratic. That’s the nature of it.
Perhaps you could question whether we should have a one day general election (like Gsy) or other electoral procedural changes to improve the quality of our island democracy.
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Bernard #44
There could be a case for means testing members of the States but it would need the backing of the States – turkeys / Christmas etc.,
You said ‘they have all gotten us in the mess… and yet they are not accountable.’
You are incorrect all members are accountable to the electorate at each election. There’s no job security there, they have to balance doing what they think is right for the island against what is popular. Not easy which is why most of us don’t do it and just harp about it instead!
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I would look into the viability of:-
1. upping tax for 1.1k’s as they are in the best position to be able to afford more.
2. Moving the cap on social security up to at least £100,000 to tap those earning a good wedge.
3. Triming down management posts to enable saving to go on improving what services we have at present.
4. Capital gains tax once a person owns more than one property in their own name.
5. CGT applied to all companies that trade in property.
6. Reward competent in budget work and sack incompetent people.
Wilson buy shares in the JNWW Co. then if you can get them. I’m sure they are paying more than the bank rate at present. What with metering coming in it could be a very lucrative to time invest in them.
“all members are accountable to the electorate at each election”
It doesn’t seem to make any difference though does it?
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At this rate, how much time left before the States hit bankcruptcy, like Antigua etc.?
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Wilson Riou
“You are incorrect all members are accountable to the electorate at each election. There’s no job security there, they have to balance doing what they think is right for the island against what is popular.”
That may be so to an extent, but we have to wait until an election to try and oust those not worthy of their position. This means that a lot more damage could have been inflicted by their incompetence until then.
What we want are the bad performers, time/money wasters and pure incompetents removed from office immediately upon making their horrendous mistakes. Maybe then would they take all necessary precautions with their decision making and consider listening to the public more.
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Adrian # 51. You are bang on buddy…….
“Triming down management posts to enable savings to go on improving what services we have at present.”
“Reward competent ‘in budget’ managers and sack incompetent bosses and staff.”
I don’t disagree with your other points, but the above are the easiest to implement…..Go on Terry Le Sueur, I dare you to do it.
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Ozouf and Le Sueur have lost the plot, in fact most of the States members have too, I ignore most of the nonsense they come with. I would like to try and help the people of Jersey but not not in the way the the government is. They are awful.
John
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Cheers Blue Knight it is only common sense at the end of the day. Oh dear there isn’t much common sense around now is there? No wonder we are in a mess.
Apparently the UN has put it on the critically endangered list along with “get it right first time” and “within budget”.
I tell you what if I was in charge heads would role at every adverse event. After time this would weed out incompetence as people would know that they were to be held accountable with their jobs and pensions on the line.
I am sure this would focus minds to the desired degree. As far as I am concerned, with big wages, comes big responsibility and with this the expectation for excellence, not incompetence. Incompetence should bring its own reward – the sack.
Just in case this hadn’t sunk in my moto would be:-
FAILURE ISN’T AN OPTION.
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£64 million deficit – what are they spending it on? It would appear someone has decided that Jersey set up a welfare system to mirror the disaster that is big welfare in the UK. The UK is borrowing to finance this system – how long before Jersey is doing the same.
Get rid of free nursery places for all, stop paying any benefits to immigrants – phase out the rent rebate scheme (tax payers money going straight into the pockets of people who can own more that 100 properties)
Probably wipe out the deficit in one stroke.
But, they would rather discuss cycle helmets!!
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Adrian #51
To my comment that ‘all members are accountable to the electorate at each election’ You said ‘It doesn’t seem to make any difference though does it?’
That could be because the majority of the electorate don’t see things the same way as you, or it could be that politicians simplify the issues in the hustings and find solving them when in power a lot more difficult This is just a Jersey problem see Obama and Brown’s performance!
I do agree that the public sector seems to grow at the expense of the private and that can only continue with economic growth which has stopped.
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Wilson 70% don’t vote. Why not? Most I know are totally *issed off with things and cannot be bothered to vote as they believe it will make no difference. They don’t trust government to do the right thing.
I believe most of the 70% would vote for non-establishment candidates so I think we could move forward to a better place, if only we could encourage them to vote.
Yes you are correct the majority of voters don’t see things as I do but this isn’t necessarily a majority of people over here, is it, bearing in mind only 3 in 10 vote!
However we still find non-establishment candidates like Stuart Syvret, who is disliked by the establishment, still repeatedly topping the poll. Why is this if those in charge are doing such a good job?
Another thing I have issues with is candidates espousing to hold one set of views and promising to act on these suddenly doing a U turn and doing the exact opposite once they are in power! This to me is blatently misleading the electorate, and I just wish the voters would see this for what it is and get rid of these sorts at the next elections.
However if it is a successful Senatorial candidate doing this you have six years to wait before you can take action against them for this. I believe these candidates know this and use it to their advantage, then nearer the next elections they start spouting the same good ideas they originally got elected for the first time round! This to me is dishonest and playing on the electorates wishes. It also appears to me that the electorate have amnesia over these little tricks and keep falling for them.
As far as I am concerned promises are meant to mean something and are meant to be kept not changed with the weather etc.
The public sector does tend to grow every year especially in the civil service due to the ever increasing bureacratic nightmare called the modern world. I would also put the increases down to empire building as well, as I believe this is a way for bosses to increase their responsibilties and consequently bodes well for a payrise and increased indexed linked pension to go along with it!
I myself would love to go through all these states departments with a fine toothcomb. I bet I could effect cuts and even increase the quality and maybe even the number of services run by the states. I am a believer in having people doing things and not observing things. The way things are being done observing seems to take up a disproportinate amount of time and money. I think it is long overdue to redress the balance.
Certain people may not like this approach as it could signal the end of their very well paid careers! However I believe we cannot afford this luxury anymore as the good times are past us now.
Even if it weren’t for changing world opinion, economic downturn, overpopulation, destruction of environment, the demographic timebomb about to engulf not only Jersey, but the rest of the western world, is going to have a massive effect, on not only the workplace over here, but the retirement aspirations of a whole generation who are going to be adversely affected due to grandeous promises by their predesessors. All types of pensions I believe are going to become all but worthless as well. You ain’t seen nothing yet IMHO.
Like it or not spending is going to have to be reined in as is the growth in higly paid observer posts as I call them.
I would prefer to effect these changes without putting out rafts of workers to make these savings. All this will do is cut tax revenues leading to increased taxation or cuts in public services. It would be much more practical from an economic point of view IMHO to get rid of as much management as possible to effect these increases in efficencies, at the same time as putting fewer people out of work, these managers if they are any good, would have a much better chance of getting another job as opposed to a low grade worker who could end up on welfare.
These ideas to me seem pretty logical however no doubt those at the top of the heap would do their best to prevent this happening due to the parrallels of the turkeys at Christmas scenerio IMHO.
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#52 – the States are indeed already backrupt.
Applying latest accountancy standards to the States Accounts (not an easy task) and properly valuing the PECRS pension scheme leaves one in no doubt I’m afraid. The sooner the Jersey public realise this the better, the current assembly and civil service largely gets away this this with public support. Guernsey and the Isle of Man have already woken up, I guess the Jersey public is waiting for another unexpected cash pile to be found as in the past, but these days that just won’t happen.
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“I myself would love to go through all these states departments with a fine toothcomb”
Adrian,
You mean a fine-toothed comb. Ordinary people don’t comb their teeth.
You go on about 1984: go and read Orwell on Politics and the English Language: http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm
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@ Adrian #51
Normally I’m careful to quote another person before I comment, but this time I hope you don’t mind if I paraphrase;
‘…
1. Tax a tiny minority of people I think are rich.
2. Tax the rich.
3. Sack them(work-shy management), they’re rich and evil, don’t even think of looking at the good(working class) people.
4. Tax success.
5. Tax success.
6. Reward competent in budget work and sack incompetent people…
…Abandon democracy unless who I vote for wins…’
You’ll not the only direct quote is point 6; I find this odd, as I can’t imagine Adrian championing any kind of a bonus culture to reward those doing a good job, or allowing employers to sack underperforming staff without the wrath of a union!
I should make it clear that this is just a light-hearted dig at the consistency of your tunnel vision in the dislike of wealth.
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Sorry about that. You can blame my 1960′s states school education for that! Yes George is very insightful and was years ahead of his time!
Nothing worth commenting overwise then? Quite happy with the size of the civil service and the amount of managers in the states then are we?
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Adrian,
Even taking a selection of your recent posts, you are all over the place mate. First of all you advocate:
‘Triming down management posts to enable savings to go on improving what services we have at present’
Or
‘I would hive off as many management posts as possible and pay the higher grade workers a bit more to cover these areas. It would save a lot of money’
Or
‘I have always believed in cutting jobs at the top first to release funds elsewhere like the front line’
Or
‘I myself would cull the pen pushers and management to enable the money to go where I think it is really needed, on the shop floor’
Or
‘Surely this has got to be good all around, except obviously for those getting big wages and big pensions?’
So unless I have drastically misunderstood you, you are all for sacking the high earning managers, but retaining the lower paid ‘workers’. OK got that.
But then your humanitarian side comes out:
‘I would prefer to effect these changes without putting out rafts of workers to make these savings. All this will do is cut tax revenues leading to increased taxation or cuts in public services.’
And
‘ I would prefer to have a happy content workforce which is more productive. A revolving door policy to employing people is not one I would advocate’
And
‘the less someone pays in tax the higher someone else’s tax will be unless you cut government expenditure to compensate for the difference.’
So you want to get rid of the higher earners, but to have a ‘happy content workforce’ and to achieve this ‘without putting out rafts of workers to make these savings’ ?
And even with your in-built prejudices, you acknowledge that sacking people will put up taxes for everyone else. But surely your solution of sacking the highest earners will have the most marked affect on everyone else’s tax rates ? (Which will lead to higher taxes for all, plus further cuts in government expenditure, leading to further redundancies, which increases the tax for everyone etc.. )
And if I wasn’t already confused enough, your views on nursery places…
‘It is simple really. If things were half the price then only one parent would need to work wouldn’t they? This would leave one of them to look after their children so very few nurseries would be needed. A win-win all around.
This worked very well in the 1960’s when people could afford to live on one wage.’
So you would rather sacrifice workers earning a good wage, who are more likely to be able to afford for their wife to remain at home, in order to keep in positions those earning a lower wage, who are much more likely to want to avail themselves of free nursery care.
So by your logic, you increase the number demanding free nursery spaces, whilst cutting the government’s ability to provide these places through lower tax receipts.
Your comments are merely demonstrative that you are deeply resentful of those who have managed to better themselves (Remember that a large number of the ‘managers’ you wish to sack are ‘workers’ who have through their career, moved up the grades) and your never ending posts are largely subjective, ill thought out and predictable. I notice that one of two other posters continue to indulge you, however perhaps you might have a more productive hobby if instead of incessantly bitching on websites, you stood for the States (again) to test the level of acceptance of your ‘views’.
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Adrian says
“I tell you what if I was in charge heads would role at EVERY adverse event. After time this would weed out incompetence as people would know that they were to be held accountable with their jobs and pensions on the line”
Its not that I disagree with your red to blue turnaround,(nice to see you have been taking note of the advice given you by some of the posters here) but how long do you think the unions and human rights bleeding hearts would alow you carry on this bullying ?
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428 CJ #60
You claim Jersey is bankrupt! Where’s your evidence?
Looking at the last States accounts Jersey’s balance sheet showed assets if £1.5 billion of which £600 million is in the strategic reserve as cash.
It’s got a current account deficit of £65M approx 10% of annual income (UK is about 20%).
And a public employees pension deficit of £200M+ which could go up or down depending on markets.
Jersey has some real problems in balancing its books without dipping into the strategic reserve and we are seeing the results at the moment.
I don’t see any evidence to support your allegation that the island is bankrupt. Could you tell us why you think it is please?
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Adrian #59
It’s more like 55% don’t vote but you have to assume not all will support your views. If voting was compulsory like Australia it might not skew things as much as you believe (or hope)!
Senators in for six years? We should have adopted Clothier reforms completely!
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J Lamborrari I know it was before your time but when Income Tax was first introduced it was a tax on the rich only.
Here is what I think, which is somewhat at variance from your thoughts on what you think, I think. Hopefully you understand what I am saying here?
1. Have a fair and just taxation system meaning everyone is on the same tax structure.
Comment:- I’ll take it as given that you disagree with this, as you nearly always disagree with what I say.
2. Also tax the rich as they fall under the same remit as the rest in my tax structure.
Ditto comment number 1.
3. Not all workers are useless and workshy which you appear to insinuate at every turn.
4. Not all managers are good at the their jobs which you appear to say at every turn.
Ditto number 1.
5. Incompetence should be rewarded with the sack.
Ditto number 1.
6. I would tax success as you can’t tax a lack of success can you? i.e. no money means no tax in my world.
Ditto number 1.
7. Reward competent in budget work and sack incompetent people…
Ditto number 1.
8. Raise the ceiling for social security contributions to at least £100,000.
Ditto number 1.
Bring in democracy to an assembly which is not democratic IMHO.
Ditto number 1.
As you are well aware employers can sack incompent workers and do so frequently.
Ditto number 1.
I don’t dislike wealth at all as the more wealth there is the more tax that can be collected, a win-win for the majority in any given society.
Ditto number 1.
Hopefully that makes things a bit less grey for you?
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If this was Jersey PLC, they would not be employed any longer.
Remember come election day VOTE THEM OUT……
Even their advisors have got it wrong, SACK THEM …..
For their salaries we could employ experts, on we have tried that OR HAVE WE??
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james 1 thanks for your input.
Have you never be somewhere where there seems to be a lack of indians and an excess of chiefs?
As per the first part I would say trimming down to the least number possible is good as this saves a lot of money and also has a big impact on the pensions bill as well, which
is good for Joe Public IMHO.
What would you do? Would you
a) cut the workers out but leave all the managers?
b) cut down on your largest expenditure per unit first or last?
c) something else?
Yes quite right the less people paying tax the higher the tax bill for the rest. I’m sure you would agree.
However should you dump 400 workers onto the dole queue would you risk
a) having lots out of work
b) having a good chance of a few of these workers never finding another job again and if they did it would be too poorly paid so they would fall out of the tax bracket and thus cause a tax shortfall for others to make up
c) making the recession much worse over here
d) collapsing the labour market due to over supply?
Now on the other hand if you removed many highly paid individuals you reduce the cost to run things by a much more substantive level per unit. It also frees up more money to employ more for less cost per unit at the sharp end thus releaving areas under pressure.
If these individuals are as good, as some say, then none of them would be out of work as they would be snapped up by the private sector wouldn’t they? This means no one is left on the scrap heap then. So as they would be earning at least as much if not more in the private sector it is a win-win all round I would say.
“So you would rather sacrifice workers earning a good wage, who are more likely to be able to afford for their wife to remain at home”
This rarely happens does it? So I would say this was irrelevant.
“This worked very well in the 1960’s when people could afford to live on one wage.”
Indeed it did, if it could then it could work now. However the cost of things are so exorbitant now that soon it will require three wages per family to get by IMHO. As far as I am concerned women shouldn’t be forced to go back to work when they have a child. This is my opinion on this matter others are free to disagree. I know of some who spend as much if not more on their child’s nursey fees and extra tax contributions as they make as wages. If this is the case why bother working?
As per people getting on I have no objections to that as long as they don’t tread on others in their rush to the top or BS their way up as some do.
These views though contrary to many others views on here are no less worthy than certain others.
All I have done is put the other side of the coin out there for people to mull over. If they don’t like it thats for them to decide. I’ll debate with others, or not, as the case may be. If others make points to me I’ll respond just as when I see points with other posts I’ll respond to them. I can’t see any harm in that can you?
None of my posts are bitching as you so call it. Just because others don’t like it doesn’t mean it is bitching. I make valid points as far as I am concerned. If others “know” better so be it.
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PJG I don’t see this as a turnaround it is basic common sense in my book. I never pigeon hole my ideas into red or blue as both have good points, just as both have bad points. I’m sure you would agree with this?
I must admit I didn’t know that unions and bleeding hearts supported incompetence and rewarded it.
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Wilson if your percentage is correct that still leave more than twice the number of votes up for grabs. This could have a dramatic effect on the political landscape.
I can only go by gut instinct and as nearly everyone I know who doesn’t vote wouldn’t vote for those in power I have a tendancy to believe that yes these votes would make a difference.
I’m sure you would agree the only way to prove this is to make voting compulsary, which I think it should be, as it is too an important issue not to bother with IMHO.
I personally hope for a change as I believe we are on a hiding to nothing if we carry on as we are, but others are convinced the other way. Time however while dictate who was right and who was wrong.
I totally agree with you on Clothier what was the point in it, if it was only going to gather dust in the states archive?
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@ Adrian #72
“…I can only go by gut instinct…”
Thankfully others use considered thought.
“…and as nearly everyone I know who doesn’t vote wouldn’t vote for those in power…”
If they don’t vote then of course they wouldn’t vote for the person in power! Anyway, there’s a long list of people who do vote, and they voted for those in government. If you’re suggesting that everybody who didn’t vote would’ve voted for losing candidates then you have to question their collective intelligence if they now complain that their chosen candidates didn’t get in; and would we really want the government that would’ve been voted in by people too witless to think that not choosing their government would lead to a government they didn’t choose?
“…I think it should be, as it is too an important issue not to bother with IMHO…”
So important an issue you’d force people who don’t care to vote? That sounds like a terrible idea. 8 out 10 cats would agree!
“…I personally hope for a change…”
Except the things you don’t want to change, ais Adrian? Some things you can’t accept need to be changed, even though they’ve run the course and are now doing more harm than good.
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Adrian #63
“Sorry about that. You can blame my 1960’s states school education for that! ”
Never your fault is it Adrian.
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joker if you ain’t tort propa its not yor fault is it? I myself blame the teachers and the new fangled ways of doing things introduced in the 1960′s. You can’t beat the 3R’s IMHO.
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Adrian
As much as like your little battles, particularly with Mr J Lamborrari at present, I do think your latest comment to Joker is absurd ..
“joker if you ain’t tort propa its not yor fault is it? I myself blame the teachers and the new fangled ways of doing things introduced in the 1960’s. You can’t beat the 3R’s IMHO.”
IMHO learning should be the responsibility of the individual after school age (where they should only be expected to learn the basics to start their adult lives). Further education and self development should be an ongoing responsibility of oneself….you cannot blame anyone else for any shortcomings. Surely in the 40 odd years since you left school you have managed to learn more than your 1960′s state school teachings???
….unless you were being ironic in your post to Joker (excusing your purposefully bad grammar of course)?????
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BSD you gotta have a laugh sometimes you know! Note who I was replying to, the clue’s in the name
However there is some validity in it as many people do struggle to overcome learning problems once they are adults. Spelling is one of those things that is hard to get right when you have learnt it the wrong way.
It is better to learn the correct way rather than undo bad habits which have become inground later on. Indeed I would have to say it is far better not to learn incorrect ways of doing anything as it is a waste of time and effort.
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