1

mistershifter

The same situation occurred in the UK when free nursery places were offered. In fact it brought about another problem which also has emerged here. There is now a glut of unemployed nannies.

Its not anyones fault per se, but when parents are given the option of free child care or employing someone, its an easy choice to make.

The outcome will most likely be same as the mainland. Some children found not having one on one supervision upsetting and didn’t like going to a nursery. Eventually the parents reverted back to having a nanny.

I know it doesn’t help the 200 children, but hopefully the situation will rectify itself quickly.

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3

PJG

John Rambo #2
It will probably be the hardworking, non moaning, childless, who will foot the bill and get nothing in return.
So this time, due to your choice to become a parent, you can “presume” you will get your two pennyworth.

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5

BS Deluxe

I hear you John Rambo.

I hope the application criteria is exclusive only to working parents.

Why would a non-working, benefit grabbing parent wish to send their child to nursery….unless it is to give them a few extra peaceful hours each day to enjoy their fags, lager and Jeremy Kyle!

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7

lula

Hear Hear John! The reason my husband and I haven’t tried for a baby yet is that childcare costs more than my husband’s income each month! We’d be better off if we both left our jobs to raise baby for 5 years than we would if we carried on working and put our child in nursery, however we are proud and want our child to grow up to be independant so we will wait until we are in a position to have a child…

remember – keep britain tidy… don’t have children you can not afford!

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9

eeyore

#3 PJG unfortunately this will happen to us all at some stage in our lives, either pre or post children.

#2 JOHN RAMBO

I was fortunate enough to get a free place for my daughter at a school nursery four years ago. This allowed me to go back to work, and start to pay FULL RENT. I now subsidise all those other so called lazy parents who are at home raising their children, themselves.

Do not presume to criticise those who want to raise their children until they are of nursery age.

I think though that there needs to be a fairer system in place for these nursery places. School nursery places should be allocated to children who will then go on to attend that school in reception class. This makes for a much smoother transition for the children. I know it did with mine.

Any parent who can afford to pay for their child to go to a fee paying school such as Beaulieu or JCG etc, should place their child in a private nursery still allowing for the 20 hours free nursery education. I think this is the fairest way to to do it. On reflection, perhaps the fee paying schools need to organise a nursery scheme so that the transition from nursery to school is easier for those children also.

John Rambo you need to be more informed before you make comments.

PS. When the say its a free place it isn’t really. I still had to contribute towards all the materials used by my daughter which was about £50 a term which isn’t a huge amount of money to some but to me at that time it was massive!

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11

Sarah

We tried to get our daughter into a states nursery in our catchment area and were offered nothing.

I don’t mind sending her to a private nursery but when the states nurseries have to take 20% out of the catchment area and I live accross the road I don’t think its fair.

As a working parent and only wanting the best for our children why should the kids who get into states nurseries get 30 hours free and my daughter only gets 20 hours free.

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13

jambo

I agree with #2 John Rambo

Some people give me the sob sob story, i couldn’t afford to pay, i pay back now pay full rent #9 eeyore…

Wow, you finally pay full rent (is that after 7 years living off benefits/free housing etc etc etc), i’ve never paid anything less, i even had 4 jobs at one stage just to put my kid in nursery and put dinner on the table and pay my mortgage. It just clearly shows how lazy people are and how easy they have it !!

Free nursery places for all those people that actually work is my call.

Carrying on watching/appearing on Jeremy Kyle the rest of you!

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15

Rozeljoe

@ Mogit #10

Interesting, I think its a cultural thing, in some countries, the grandparents look after the grandchildren, the parents go out to work and enjoy their young life. The kids grow up, have kids, the parents become grandparents and they then look after the new grandchildren. A sort or family leap frog. The family unit is important to them. Say what you think, but for them, it works and works well.

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17

User pays

I note that nursery education is not a statutory requirement. I would suggest that the states scrap all free places in the public and private sectors now theres a proper story.

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19

Robert

I know exactly how some of you feel, we have family members who do not work but get free nursery so they can what…… go to back to bed as they are still hung over from the night before, its a disgrace and the States need to have a good look at the situation, give free child places out to those who work and need them, if your not working then look after your children

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21

FOS

I am one of the parents who’s child was refused a place this year. Myself and my partner both work full time because we can’t afford not to and we live and pay rent in the private sector. Free 20 hours a week in a private nursery isn’t an option for us as we still wouldn’t be able to afford the remaining amount. We applied for a states place and was turned down. However we know a cople who are financially more stable than us, have only just arrived on the island, have not paid anything into the economy but their child got a place and ours didn’t. They aren’t even giving priority to locally qualified people.

#8 my partner’s parents don’t live here and although mine do just because they are grandparents it doesn’t mean that they are retirement age or could aford to give up work.

What on earth are the states thinking? There is only one man who reads though everyones application and decides which child gets a place and who doesn’t! How is that fair? How can that one man know from readiing a 1 page application who is more worthy or in need of a place?

We have been told that we have been put on a waiting list! Probably along with the other 200 people refused!

What a joke!!!

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23

Childless Joe

PJG 3 It will probably be the hardworking, non moaning, childless, who will foot the bill and get nothing in return.
So this time, due to your choice to become a parent, you can “presume” you will get your two pennyworth.

I’m with you there mate, I’m sick of paying more tax to subsidise other people’s kids. Giving up priority parking spaces at shops and supermarkets, not having unlimited time off work for maternity/child sickness, having to take my holidays outside of school holidays as priority is given to parents. My friends who also chose not to have children recently had to pay £3000 in repeat travel costs to the UK for hospital treatment that she would have got for free if she’d had children as the exemption limit is £40,000 higher.

Ironic isn’t it, because we choose not to have children and drain the system we pay more into it to subsidise those that do and yet are entitled to less out of it when we are in need.

I’ve nothing against people having children but I’m bl**dy tired of paying for it.

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25

lex

I don’t think people should be too quick to judge, it is a shame there are so many ignorant and narrow minded people out there like John Rambo. I was to return to work when my child was six months, I had a great job that paid well and I was in the process of promotion, however Jersey being Jersey my wages did not cover rent and nursery fees so I had no other choice but to be a stay at home mum on income support.
I am thankful that I made this decision as it made me realise what was important to me and my life as I got to spend precious time with my child, isn’t that why we have children!. Sadly many parents do not have this option due to mortgages, commitments etc.
One of the biggest treasures of staying at home with children is sharing in all the “first” moments. As a new mother, watching daily changes with your new baby as they grow is amazing. The first smile, first word and first step are all huge landmarks in the life of your baby. It you are not staying at home, you are likely to miss out on those special “first” moments of your baby’s development. Many mothers choose to stay of for these reasons not because they are lazy like Rambo claims.

I have worked hard since I was 17, I have paid into the system, paid my taxes, very rarely was a off work due to sickness and I was in the process of a degree (which I paid for) so I don’t see why just for the first few years of my child’s life I receive some help in raising my child at home.
While I became a full time mother, I have completed my hons degree, been on varies courses to gain further certificates and do voluntary work where I can all in preparation to return to work. So not all mothers not working are sitting around doing nothing as John Rambo claims, do you even know it takes to raise the work it takes to be a full time mum, I can tell you it has been overlooked as work because raising children is the hardest work I have ever done but by far the most rewarding.

Anyway back to the point, I had my child’s name down from birth, I am a single parent, a no income family, I do not drive (but learning) and my child did not get a place in nursery so it is not just the parents that do not work that are getting places.

And Toastedteacakes, most gradparent work, both my parent are in thier 60′s and are in full time employment as they just can’t afford to stop. I know my mum would love to look after my little one while I return to work but it is just not finacially possible for either of them.

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27

Nemo

B S Deluxe, Have you actually taken time to think that perhaps parents sending their child to nursery are doing so in order to return to work? How are mothers on benefit supposed to do this if they are unable to send their child to nursery? Oh by the way I am a mother on short term benefits , while completing further education, I do not smoke, I rarely drink (especially larger!) and I have never watched day time TV including Jeremy Kyle!!!!! Am I the exception, I really don’t think so.

Believe me, when you are a full time mother you do not have time to sit around and watch any television as you are out at parks, playgroups, Jelly clubs, Jumping Beans, Swimming, food shopping etc, the list is endless and when you are at home most decent parents will spend time playing and reading with their children or fit in their housework where they can!. Believe me we are not all benefit grabbing parent who only wish to send their child to nursery to get a few extra peaceful hours each day to enjoy our fags, lager and Jeremy Kyle! It is a shame you see the world that way!

Most wish to return to work and receive short term benefits as nursery costs are just so extortionate. I am not denying that there are people on benefits that really do take liberties and can work the system (and spend their days watching Jeremy Kyle) and sadly there are also bad parents out there but there are also a large number of mothers who have stopped work in order to raise their child at home for the first few years, who are on benefits and are just doing so until their child reaches nursery age then return to work.

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29

NannieP

To Teacakes,as my user name suggests Im a grandmother and would just love to stay home and look afer my grandaughter age 3 but my rent and bills need paying too as with her parents,I dont have a choice.

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31

SJ

Well my daughter did get a place at the school of our choice. What schools did you choose. If you picked an over subscribed preschool you are less likely to get a place. its nothing to do with whose on benefits and whose in states. Last time i checked that wasnt on the form whether you were on benefits!

The whole thing will start next year again with kids not getting school places at the schools they wanted. Anyone checked how many children were born into the year that will start in september? That counts for alot as well!

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33

Adrian

If things weren’t so expensive over here then maybe women could stay at home with their children instead of being forced into the work place against their wishes?

Celine “p.s. PJG: today’s kids will be the taxpayers of the future paying for your pension and healthcare when you retire. You’ll get your ‘two-pennies worth’ and then some.”

Sounds good in theory but I think the whole thing will collapse due to the demographic time bomb and the lack of attention previous governments have paid to this looming juggernaut.

How can one working person support one retiree? Indeed how will one worker afford the health care of one retiree? The two don’t add up in my book.

Mind you, you could be literally, correct “two-pennies” might be all the next generation of retirees get. If this is the case I think there will be more than two fingers raised to the government don’t you?

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35

Leah Holmes

#18 I, presumably like PJG, have paid over my working life for my pension and healthcare when I retire. Your children will not be paying for it so don’t worry.

I feel your pain but having children is a choice and while I don’t believe childcare should be as expensive as it is, it certainly should not be funded by the taxpayer.

What I do suggest to those who are struggling is that they get together with some friends and hire a nanny privately to look after their kids, just 3 kids could potentially make this cheaper than nursery places.

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37

Overpopulated

£64 million government deficit, this is one of the many handouts that it going to have to be cut.

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39

Mogit

Rozeljoe – you are right it is a cultural thing in europe, but it doesn’t happen in JERSEY or in the UK, because the family unit is much smaller and the cost of living here dictates that all and sundry have to work to make ends meet, as for looking after my own grandchildren, i’m lucky – have never been asked to as I cannot commute to US on a daily basis!!!

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41

Little Bear

I was a supervisor at a large company and loved my job, however after having my child, my personal circumstances changed and I found myself having to give up work for a short time due to this and also my wage (despite being decent) not covering nursery costs and general cost of living such as bills, rent and food etc.

I became a full time single mother (a low income family now) while continuing my studies, I also do voluntary work and bank work, so do not sit around the house drinking larger and watching Jeremy Kyle and neglecting my child’s needs as some believe !!.

It is a shame that a handful of ignorant people tarnish people on benefits with the same brush. Believe me unforeseen circumstances can crop up at anytime in people’s lives and you can find yourself in positions that you never imagined. A friend had a lovely partner, just got a mortgage and had two beutiful children, lost her partner to cancer couldn’t pay the mortgage on her own, and is now a single mother on income support, living in housing so please don’t be too hasty to judge as everyone’s circumstances are different!!!.

I placed my child’s name down at birth for a preschool place(he is four in Sept). I was aware that I would finish my degree in the same year that my child would be attending preschool, thus enabling me to return to full time employment, paying taxes and putting back into the economy and thus being able to helping others that find themselves in the position I was. Despite meeting two of the so called criteria’s in the selection process, my child has been rejected a place at preschool. 20 hours a week at a private nursery would not suite my needs as I wish to return to work full time.

I am local lady as is my child and the rest of my family; we are all hard working, tax payers etc; however this does not seem to count for anything anymore.

I met a lady from a playgroup my child and I attend, who is not local and only been on the Island for a couple of years, she was unaware how the system worked so had not placed her child’s name down for preschool but wanted her child to start preschool January 2010. She phoned education who offered her two preschool places and within a month her daughter was attending d’auvergne. So to say there is an order of priority seems to be a myth and a complete waste of time placing a child’s name down at birth, there appears to be no real criteria in the state’s education system.

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43

jsybean

I would just like to know where all these children are as the nursery I worked in closed its doors at Christmas because there was only 7 children ??? Parents were not willing to drive out of their way to access a free place of which we had 16 !!
I am now unemployed and looking for a job in another nursery. For some strange reason a private nursery is not as good as a states nursery ! work that one out when we had a ratio of 1 adult to 6 children and the states have a ratio of 1 adult to 10 children !
I know were I would rather have my child.

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45

BS Deluxe

Proud SA

“what benefits are you talking about !!! We are not locals but have no benefits. We pay soc security so your unemployed can lie about. We pay social security so your youth can have babies and raise their children on hand outs. Be careful what you shout about. The non locals may just all leave and the island may sink !”

I am local, but my fiancee and family are from SA….I presume by your name that you are too (apologies if not).

Please tell us why you left your own country because I know SA does not have much to shout about when it comes to looking after it’s own citizens. I am sure you have a much better quality of life now in Jersey….

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47

Diane

I totally agree with PJG (3) and Childless Joe (23).

If you can’t afford to have children without expecting financial support from the hardworking tax payers, then don’t have them until your situation allows.

I have said before on this site and will say it again – a woman’s ability to have children is a God given ability, not a God given right. Because you CAN does not mean you SHOULD regardless of curcumstance !!

There are several vomit inducing posts in this thread about baby’s “first’s”. Well if they mean so much to you, wait until you can afford to take the time off work (without income support!) before you have a baby. You know – like they used to do in the old days!!

That aside however, I think that the problem in getting a “free” space at nursery lies primarily with the States determination to be “politically correct” and have imposed conditions on these places accordingly .

When I read the article in the JEP I thought “for eff’s sake, how is there ever going to be any spaces left for the average Joe’s children?”. In case you didn’t read the JEP on Friday, here’s Educations criteria!!! :
“the schools must have a balanced classroom made up of vulnerable children, those with special needs and those who have siblings already attending”.

And to assist with this they also have an order of Priority for selection:

1. Children suspected of being at risk
2. Children with social, educational, physical or emotional needs
3. Children from families with particular needs such as very low income families, siblings with special needs, multiple births, parental illness, night shift workers.
4. Children with siblings in the school
5. 20 per cent of children may be taken from out of catchment
6. Date of application.

Going by priorities 1 to 3 you would almost be grateful that they didn’t chose your child for a place at their nursery!!

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49

Adrian

It is simple really. If things were half the price then only one parent would need to work wouldn’t they? This would leave one of them to look after their children so very few nurseries would be needed. A win-win all around.

This worked very well in the 1960′s when people could afford to live on one wage.

As a child I would have hated having to go to a nursery instead of paying at home, doing my own thing, in familiar surroundings, it was much more fun. It was hard enough being stuck in school at 5 years of age upwards. Another 3 years in school? I shudder at the thought. As far as I am concerned early years should be spent with one’s parents wherever possible.

Another option as BSD has already mentioned is for the employers where practical to do more to help the situation, that is if they are really interested in the problem. Mind you being in a profit driven world now, where is the profit in this? Nevermind back to the drawing board then.

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51

Granny G

Diane – If you think baby’s ‘firsts’ are vomit inducing, I feel sorry for you and any children you may have or have and as for your language-no wonder we have problem in this world.

As I stated before I hope YOU never find yourself in a situation where you have to seek help from the state. It could happen to any one of us so, do not be so smug, things can change in an instant.

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53

Frank Furter

Lets see we are looking at losing 400 healthcare staff and free nursery places are a priority?

In an ideal world there would be enough money for everything but as there is not free nursery places to those who have chosen to have children is exclusionist and unfair to those that have not ( and pay more for it )

If you choose to have children make sure you can afford it, I wouldn’t buy a Ferrari and expect the state to service and provide fuel for it. Parents get enough subsidies with healthcare and education paid for by non parents and preferential tax status also, they should pay more tax not less in a fair world using the user pays system.

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55

Alan

The free nursery care system was introduced at the last minute as an election ploy. It is too costly and should be rescinded – now. If parents wish to send their children to nursery; they should not be subsidised but pay the full cost.

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57

Billy

I thougt the point of the of the pre school was to help you child to get ready for school knowone seems to bring that up I have a place for my son I am a stay at home mum with a little girl as well why should he miss out I worked before and after I had my son but when I had my little girl I stayed home with them we do not get any help and I don’t expect it we rent our house and my other half works really hard so why should childen like him not get places and for all these people that think stay at home mums sit around all day I don’t have time we go to playgoups sport bugs juming bean

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59

Rozel Aubin

Doesn’t look like you get time to pause for an instant, Billy!

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61

PJG

Perhaps an incentive to reduce the population, a “green thing” to eack out our plannets natural reserves, would be to increase the tax benefits received by parents of only one child by, say, 50%.
Give no tax breaks to parents of 2 children, after all they have had one so cant really call the second an accident.
For the 3rd or subsequent offspring start introducing tax penalties.
I am sure there would have to be a bit of tweaking to cope with divorces, parent deaths etc. Bur what a wonderful world it would be. we could all do as we like and not be labelled scroungers.
Maybe we could reduce 20 means 20 for people who have irreversible sterilisation.

And in answer to Celine # 11.
I shall soon be retiring on half wages, I have been contributing to that pension for 40 years. The pittance one gets from the States can hardly be held up as good value for all the social security money I have parted with during my life.
“You’ll get your ‘two-pennies worth’ and then some”
I dont think so.

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63

Leah Holmes

#61 PJG, so right. There is a definite environmental need to discourage people from having more than two children, if this has to be done using financial discouragement then so be it. Childfree people are already heavily discriminated against in the workplace and in the taxes they pay, now we have people destroying our environment by continuing to overbreed. Unfortunately there isn’t a single politician (worldwide) with the guts to promote the ‘stop at two’ campaign until they can be sure there are an adequate number of childfree people to vote for them, they would rather secure their own vote than look after the environment?

#62 I understand your explanation of what the nursery place is, but unless it is compulsory for you to send your son their it should not be funded by the taxpayer in any way whatsoever.

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65

Fatima

DIANE

”a woman’s ability to have children is a God given ability, not a God given right. Because you CAN does not mean you SHOULD regardless of curcumstance !!

”There are several vomit inducing posts in this thread about baby’s “first’s”. Well if they mean so much to you, wait until you can afford to take the time off work (without income support!) before you have a baby. You know – like they used to do in the old days!!”

”I appreciate that circumstances can change and that at some point I too may find myself needing help from the state, but I can promise you that it will not have been of my own doing because I do not, and never have, lived beyond my means.”

Diane,I am a mother and I agree 100% with you. Very well said!

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67

Sam

Why can’t women have children and enjoy free nursery care? When they announced it we thought it was the best time to have another. Its about time the States of Jersey gave its people something back and free nursery care paid for the State is hardly too much to ask after all it is the next generation for the Island. I think the States should put more money into this in order to cover the extra places, it is the children that deserve it and with the extra money saved we can now take them on holidays.

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69

BS Deluxe

Sam 67

You just don’t get it do you!!

The States aren’t paying for this “free” nursery….it is US the taxpayer and we DO NOT want to!

We are paying through our noses as it is and struggling to survive….free nursery is not an essential so think twice before you CHOOSE to have another kid that you want the rest of us to pay for!

As much as you’d like to save money so you can enjoy a holiday with your offspring I would resent having to pay for it and not being able to afford a well-deserved holiday myself!

Pure and simple selfishness!

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71

sarah

Just a point

The states nurseries are 30 hours per week

the private nurseries are states funded for 20 hours per week.

So are the toddlers being refused to states or for the 20 hours according to the article

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73

bella

I,ve said it before and i,ll say it again-If you can,t feed them don,t breed them!
When I had my son I was presented with a bill for £7.7 shillings on leaving maternity hosp,that’s what they charged-£1 1shilling a day-A mans wage was about £9-10 a week.
Told them to send me bill,never did pay it.
I didn’t have a pram till baby 3 months old.bought from catalogue paid monthly no family allowance then.
Glad the pill came out soon after!

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75

Kim

eeyore….you have hit the nail right on the head. We were lucky enough a few years ago for our Child to receive a free nursery place in a states school. It helped our child a great deal to settle into Reception having attened the same school nursery.

Education should give nursery places to those who wish to attend that school. Parents know in general if they do not intend to send their children to a states school, so as you say, if they can afford to send them to a private school, then they can afford to make up the difference over the 20 hours in a private nursery.

From the age of 6 months our child was in a private nursery full time as my husband and I both HAVE to work and the fees were £1,000 per month for over 3 years, so I guess that 20 hours free per week is a blessing as we could have done with that a few years ago. However, Education should have thought about how they were going to give the free hours away in the first place and in agreement with eeyore, should have gone to those who intend to attend the school from reception age, because it really does help.

Not only have states places been given to those who will be attending a private school from reception age, they don’t live in the catchment area either, which is doubly unfair.

We are not born here locally, we have both worked since we have been on the Island and we have no grandparents on the Island. We chose to have kids because it is our choice and we have paid our taxes and extortionate nursery fees at £1,000 per month. We have never claimed benefits and expect nothing for free, but if it is going for free, then it should be fair!

Education, if you want to prioritise who you give your states nursery places to, here’s a little help:

States Nursery:

1. The child intends to go to that same school from reception age.
2. The child lives in that/or close to that catchment area.

Private Nuersey:

1. The child intends to go to a private school.
2. Catchment area first, or surrounding area.

It would be a little more fair if parent/s were working in either case, but due to various circumstances, I guess this is not always practical. I have had friends who have wanted to go to work, but cannot afford to because they get more money on benefits at home than if they go to work. Perhaps the states should be looking at this first. its ridiculous if people want to work but cannot because they are worse off. They would also not be able to afford to pay nursery fees and should take some priority if they clearly wish to return to work.

Hopefully Education will look into this before next year!

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77

Leah Holmes

#74 Nursery is a privilege NOT a human right. On an evolutionary basis the care that your child has a human right to is the care of being nursed and cared for by its mother, NOT by strangers at the expense of the taxpayer.

Don’t play the human rights card falsely, it does real causes a great disservice.

The taxpayer has a right to only fund essential services not optional ones. Nursery is optional.

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79

J Lamborrari

@ bella # 73
“…I,ve said it before and i,ll say it again-If you can,t feed them don,t breed them!…
… …Told them to send me bill,never did pay it.”
Do as you say not as you do, ais bella?

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81

Adrian

Do children really want to go to nursery school when they could be enjoying themselves at home?

I for one would have hated going to a nursery when I was young. Being stuck in school for a minimum of 11 years could be seen as a prison sentence, why bang on another 2-3 years at the beginning?

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83

donald pond

Good work folks. No sign of progressive thinking here.

Seriously…we sent our kids Little Foetus and Mini Foetus to a nursery from the time they were 2 and a half. They both loved it. We had to pay £800 a term but had the choice of sending them anywhere. The cost meant that only those who worked or could afford it used nurseries.

For number 3 we can’t get a nursery place for love or money. The system worked well before: there were perhaps difficulties for some people who needed to work but were struggling to afford childcare. Unlike some, I have sympathy for those people and have no problem with them being helped.

But the ridiculous new policy means that we spend a vast amount of money on subsidising places for the very wealthy and for those who are on benefits and could look after their kids while/instead of watching daytime TV. As a result there are no nursery places left. But as with every other States policy, the result (though not the aim) is to benefit the very rich and the very poor at the expense of middle Jersey.

And remember, we were willing to pay £2,400 a year to send our child to nursery. Instead the States are spending a similar amount to prevent me from doing so. Thankfully we don’t have a budget deficit so can afford to throw money away!

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85

Leah Holmes

#84 Donald, I’m sure you would recognise that the system you suggest needs to go even further. Currently very capable children are held back by a rather slow education system, this can turn children off of education before they even get to university age. The system needs to have the flexibility to cope with the more able, the average, and the less able, but in the last couple of decades the system has been failing the more able. I would prefer a system based far less on age and more on capability.

True that boys do not thrive in a classroom environment as well as girls, this situation has got even worse of late in secondary education. The difference is that in secondary education boys fair just as well in the classroom but only if they are in single sex schools. I wonder if it’s evidence that there is a very strong argument for bringing back a decent school uniform as opposed to the ridiculously revealing clothes girls now wear!

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87

Adrian

donald kids don’t need to start nursery school at 2 and a half to 3 this is propaganda as far as I am concerned. Can you honestly say that this is in the best interests of a child?

As per your own circumstances why bother working when you don’t need to? Why not spend some quality time with your children? Before you know it they will be grown and gone.

Children shouldn’t be regimented at school till at least 7 IMHO. I hated being dragged to school aged five years, I much prefered spending my time playing at home or on the beach. However my mother had no option but to send me against my will to school. How can this be right?

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89

J Lamborrari

@ Adrian #87
“…donald kids don’t need to start nursery school at 2 and a half to 3 this is propaganda as far as I am concerned…”
But not all parents can afford to take time off work to care 24/7 for their children. It’s not ideal, but that’s life.

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91

donald pond

Adrian,
I would prefer people looked at my comment (83) more than (84) as it is more on point.

But I think from the age of 2/3 children need to spend at least half of their time with other children. I think this time should be spent outside the context of formal learning – beaches, parks, farm visits etc. But basically, children learn off other children: they learn to share, they learn that they are not the centre of the world, they learn independence.

In an ideal world, children would be brought up in the home until 3, then half time in nursery until probably 5 or 6 (4 is clearly too young for school, especially for summer born kids) and then full time school with formal learning starting at 7.

But I think staying at home until 7, unless you have a lot of siblings, is not a good idea, even if it was practical (which it isn’t for most).

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93

Leah Holmes

#86 Did I say I agreed with taxpayer’s money being spent on drug addicts? I’m pretty sure I didn’t!

Childcare is a choice, needing childcare is a choice, it is all a choice. While I don’t agree with money being thrown at drug addicts and drunks, any one of us could (given the ‘right’ circumstances) end up needing these services.

We can choose not to get pregnant until such times as we can look after our own child without relying on the taxpayer.

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95

donald pond

“We can choose not to get pregnant until such times as we can look after our own child without relying on the taxpayer.”

Actually Leah, the reason why this (misguided) policy was brought in was precisely so that people were not prevented from going back to work through being unable to access childcare. The States policy to maximise tax take is to increase the proportion of the population in work. In other words, this policy was introduced to bring a net benefit to the taxpayer.

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97

Leah Holmes

#95 Donald, saying it is a net benefit assumes that you don’t think the planet is overcrowded. All evidence says it is, and since both public order and health improve with lower populations it is clear that less public money would be needed if people hadn’t bred so much. Children being born to parents who put their own lives ahead of the needs of their child are causing society to have to spend a lot of money on policing, health and insurance! There are parents choosing to go back to work simply because they consider what are actually luxuries as necessities. I have no issue in saying that if you have a child, that child and its needs come first, above everything. You chose to have them, they didn’t ask to be born!

I don’t recall childcare being brought in because there weren’t enough taxpayers! If people want to go to work and have ‘free’ childcare then tax the salary they get more to pay for said childcare.

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99

Matt

It concerns me a little that people appear to be using this States hand out to have more children and use the money saved to go on holidays which has been said some posts up. The Island cannot afford to be abused in this way so perhaps these free nursery places should be means tested now. I was all for it at first but reading that I am not for it anymore.

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101

J Lamborrari

@ bella #92
“…I own my own house,so what?…”
My point was that some people might find it hard to purchase their own home when they know they have unpaid debts, obviously you have no such qualms.

“…I,m writing about 20 years before,forgive my ignorance…”
Of course I’ll forgive your ignorance, nobody can know everything, but ignorance doesn’t completely absolve you of responsibility surely?

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103

donald pond

“This is exactly why it should not be free…..those who already pay private nursery fees so they can get back to work are being discriminated against.”

That was my initial point at (83). This current policy tries to solve one problem – a small number of people struggling to pay nursery fees – by throwing money at everyone sending children to nursery. The result is to penalise those who could already afford nursery fees.

And here is the very interesting knock-on problem. Those people – the higher earners – are precisely the ones who the States needs to be working to keep the income tax receipts up. But if they can no longer access nursery care because those who do not work have taken the spaces in the free for all – then they cannot work.

So, the States send a load of money in an attempt to increase the tax take and instead penalise middle Jersey for no benefit. Sounds familiar?

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105

Leah Holmes

#102 Well we could go into the exceptions to the rule but there just isn’t the space

It’s much easier to just accept that most people will generalise when short of space, if you’re concerned that their generalisation is their complete opinion then why not ask rather than ‘correct’ them?

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107

Selina

I don’t think that 20 hours free nursery should ever have been advertised to all parents. The lack of spaces is now obviously evident. I live in St Helier and was not offered a space for my child in a States Nursery and when looking into the Private Nurseries have found that they are all full. Also you only get 20 hours free term time, and your child has to attend the nursery out of term time and you have to foot the bill for this. Surely if 20 hours free is offered, your child should be able to attend the nursery just for those hours as they would if they had got a space in the States Nursery. I currently have two children with a child minder so that I can go to work and am lucky because the Private Nurseries in St Helier are only offering you to go on the waiting list.

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109

Sarah

Leah i perfectly accept that you dont want kids. nor does my best friend. Thats fair enough each to your own lives.

I just dont like the constant ‘we pay for your kids’ or ‘we pay for you to sit on your arse all day’ I actually am intending to do voluntary work when my daughter goes to pre school. ive been at home with her for the last 3 years of her life instead of farming her off to nursery, to go and get a job that makes us worse off than we are if im not working. my fiance does work, in essence i dont like teh scroungers any more than you do because he is paying for them as well!

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111

Thinkof the child

Most comments so far have forgotten that today’s 3/4 year olds are vulnerable members of our community who don’t have a voice but are society’s future. We need to give them the very best start in life and good quality learning experiences to develop their social, emotional and intellectual development are vital and trained professionals working in partnership with parents can help them become respomsible adullts. Recent brain reserch shows most dispositions and attitudes are established before 7. All children need to learn socially at this age so nurery is NOT about the parents but the child. States money spent at this stage is more effective than in adoescence.Children born to parents who are themselves needy need professional help more so they are not behind in development at school age.That’s why there are freeplaces for all.

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113

Leah Holmes

#109 Sarah, tell me when I’ve ever suggested mothers sit on their arses and I’ll give you a medal! I would never suggest such a thing, I respect people that stay at home with their child, just because I don’t want to do it myself doesn’t mean that I dislike those that do.

Anyway, none of this changes the fact that people who don’t have kids do partially subsidise those that do and I don’t see how anyone can consider that to be right. There are many situations in life where people require the work benefits that are given to parents, but they are only ever given to parents for some reason.

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115

J Lamborrari

@ bella #10
“…As for my debt from yonks ago,they can take it out of my mansion and vast plantation,when i,m gone…”
That’s very big of you bella, but why not just pay your bills during your lifetime? What would you say if I suggested I wouldn’t bother paying my Income Tax, but if they want to take it from my estate after death that’d be just fine?

“…Wonder what you own?…”
What difference would it make to you?

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117

bella

1 debt my dear,just 1 £7.7s.
As it happens I could have gone to the parish at the time,and they would have paid it.
You my dear seem to be obsessed with what others have Thats the difference.
As I have to go hosp monday for eye check-up I will give the money to admin and tell them my guilty secret,if they don,t accept it,which I,m sure they will not,I will throw it in the fountain for charity.
Will that satisfy thee lord?

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119

J Lamborrari

@ bella #117
“…You my dear seem to be obsessed with what others have Thats the difference…”
Not true at all bella, I didn’t ask if you had a house did I? You mentioned it openly.

“…I will give the money to admin…”
Just be sure to account for interest, a pretty standard interest rate for delinquent debtors is 2% per month, so I make it that you owe approx. £205,000.00.

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121

Adrian

J Lamborrari maybe you could apply this to certain other groups and see what happens?

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123

Adrian

“What if somebody chooses to send their children to private school, do they get a reduction in their taxes?”

Of cause they should, why should they pay twice for the same thing? A bit unfair really isn’t it?

Just think everyone who pays a fee to a private school is saving the tax payer probably around 50% in the cost of schooling for that child. Now multiply this up by thousands and you get quite a big saving for the tax payer wouldn’t you say?

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125

Leah Holmes

#122 You really do read what you want to and then go on a rant picking a fight with whoever, whenever…

You will get a pensioner’s TV licence if you live that long, but actually TV licences aren’t mandatory, just remove the feed into your property. I’ve already said certain drug and alocohol-related healthcare should be paid for (fights etc), but addiction could happen to any of us given the right (i.e. wrong) circumstances and you could only withdraw care if you were very careful to provide far better mental healthcare (often the cause of addiction!) As for income support, any one of us could need that also. So I’m not really getting what your point is.

As for nursery, my mum stayed off work till we went to school, but also paid for us to go to various groups and activities to socialise (not taxpayer-funded ones). So I (again, already stated) see my SS as paying retrospectively for my schooling (regardless of where that schooling was) but I don’t include childcare in that, that’s my opinion, I’m perfectly entitled to it, and there are parents who feel the same way!

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127

Sarah

Leah i know you didnt say it about mother, i should have made myself more clear i meant other posters. Sorry about that.

I dont particularily like having to subsidise those that do sit around all day and have more and more kids as a money making scheme. We pay for anything our daughter needs, including her glasses which we could claim back off various charities and the states if we wanted we have been told but we prefer to pay ourselves if we need anything.

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129

Leah Holmes

#127 That’s cool Sarah, you sound like a loving, sensible parent, not the kind that anyone is going to be annoyed at. I am aware we are all subsidising many layabouts (parents and non-parents alike), hopefully someday the States will crack down on them. Please note that I have no issue with you currently using any services you are entitled to, that would be wrong of me. I would like the system changed but while it is as it is you should make the most of it.

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