Minister: Relax planning rules for supermarket
Tuesday 16th March 2010, 3:00PM GMT.
Tesco is one of the supermarkets that some people would like to see in Jersey. Picture: Gareth Fuller/PA
Protection for the countryside should be scrapped so that a new large supermarket can be built on the outskirts of town, according to a controversial new States report.
The findings are in the retail framework report – a copy of which has been leaked to the JEP – that was commissioned by Economic Development Minister Alan Maclean and has his support.
It recommends sacrificing environmental safeguards to give consumers greater choice and lower prices.
‘The minister believes that an additional large food store operator is essential to the Island’s retail sector, and will continue to work with potential entrants to encourage the private sector to introduce new provision in the sector,’ the report says.
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No, No! There are plenty enough shops at the moment. It will not result in lower prics as any new operator will just increase their prices to the competitor’s levels – this is what happened when Besants briefly built a new supermarket at the bottome of Trinity Hill, now Checkes.
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Please, please, please let us have a UK supermarket, Tesco are fine as are any of the big boys. I’m not niaive enough to think that prices will be comparable to the UK but the increase in choice would be very welcome. I’m tired of going to the UK and seeing all the things that we can’t buy.
For those against it you don’t have to shop at the new store and your choice of store will be much less busy enabling better shopping for you so it’s win win for everyone.
Of course it will never happen, too much vested interest on the part of those making the decision – nice idea though allowing the people of Jersey to shop where they really want.
And don’t let the poll fool you, those against are much more vocal than those for hence a greater response skewing the real result.
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We have been asking for another supermarket ever since Morrison’s was taken over.
With loads of talk and no action is this another red herring?
The 2 calling the shots would not like it though would they?
And indeed the C of C will do anything to block this happening in case in interferes with their cosy little set up.
We need competition,not just for cheaper prices,but for choice also
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I hope this isnt related to the Bartlett spin doctoring and centre page spread in todays JEP. The new ‘spud factory’ has already been earmarked for a potential footprint for a supermarket, if the factory fails. Change of use… only when it suits! People have been crying out for another supermarket for years – why all of a sudden has the department realised that competition is needed. Has Tom Scott fallen out of favour and Bartlett become the States new benefactor?!? Interesting to see how this little saga plays out…
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No No and No again…we have enough flippin shops here already…there are many small traders in the town who are struggling with the downturn.another big shop would only dilute what they have even further…this is what ruins places that once had character..you end up with only the big players…and Whammo they have a captive audience..and you’re at their mercy..all the interesting little shops that actually provided personal service and that were an essential part of community fold and suddenly you are living in a soulless version of Milton Keynes..or any other so called new town….the people become dissociated from each other adding to social breakdown……Then there is the matter of the countryside…any relaxation as they call it would simply be the thin end of the wedge…remember GST” No don’t worry only 3% won’t alter for ages.. Lies..we all know it’s just a tap that can be opend as wide as they like without coming back to us..so allow a supermarket in the countryside and soon after you’ll hear the pitiful bleating of Freddie saying ” well we had to allow this ,this and this ‘cos we allowed the supermarket and others now have a case to force our hand…Islanders stand firm against the rape and pillage of our island Home…or your kids will inherit environmental disaster,where old people will say,what have we done…you should have seen it 30 years ago..it was beautiful.
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please please lets have tesco come to Jersey so we get some competition and better pricing!
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I’ve said this before but a new supermarket wont be of any benefit to us. In the UK the prices are only as low as they are because of the amount of competition between the supermarkets. A new player will simply arrive in Jersey , drop their prices and wipe the floor with Sandpiper and CO OP plus destroy the central market. Once they had done this they will simply hike their prices up to what we pay now. What we DO need is a competition regulation body with the balls to make our existing players drop their prices to a realistic level.
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hMM, Tesco and it’s ilk are doing very bad things to the UK – My advice is to not let them get a foothold. TBH, it seems like they might already be putting pressure on certain people to change the law in their favour – a typical Tesco trick..
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yes let all the supermarkets in we have got six phone shops lets have six uk supermarkets see if that improves service and choice
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I have recently left the island, but in response to post no. 1 I would like to point out that when Morrisons (previously Safeway) sold out to CI Traders, our food prices went through the roof! Like many people we switched to the Co-Op, but even so our average weekly food bill rose by approximately 20%.
The less well off sections of the island community badly need the increased competition to help reduce their weekly food spend.
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Sadly you are never going to have the range of choices that you have in a UK or French supermarket.
There is just not the footfall to make it worthwhile stocking them.
I buy various herbs and spices off the Internet now because it is not possible to buy them in Jersey.
There are only so many shopping pounds to go round and you might find you end up with less choice as operators concentrate on core high turn over lines to try and maximise their share of the available market.
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I really don’t understand why people object so strongly to another supermarket. I can only assume they’re people who rarely visit the mainland or have never lived there.
Tesco offer far more choice and higher quality food than any supermarket over here does, and they have offers on nearly everything at some point. Perhaps they wouldn’t be any cheaper than here, but I know where I’d be shopping if they did come here and it would no longer be the cash cooperative.
It’s 2010, time to start moving with the times.
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Get a French supermarket in. They would make a nice change from all the boring UK brands that Jersey is lumbered with. A lot of their food is also far superior to much of the bland rubbish that comes from north of the Channel.
It should be cheaper to ship in from france as well so prices should come down. A win-win for the majority in Jersey IMHO.
I must admit I personally can’t see prices coming down due to what I perceive as vested interests over here.
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C’mon get pouring the concrete Tesco, Asda, Sainsbury. There are plenty of derelict fields and scrublands here. Got me qualies ma lav eh! got me gaff! Got me overpaid job in finance, now I WANT MY TESCO’s ….mission accomplished!
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Why is the question “in the countryside” what about the odeon site, 2 major carparks near by, either way, somewhere, anywhere. How can someone in Glasgow order a TV off play.com and have free delivery, surely it can’t make too much difference in price.
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Comments 2,6,9,12.You are talking rubbish. Im from a somerset town that Tesco were allowed to enter.Dont let it happen.Tesco have a habit of getting a foothold on UK towns then after all the local traders have gone, upping their prices. As for comment 4,Jo, I think you`re on to something……….
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Correct me if I am wrong, but the article refers to dropping the protection for building a supermarket in the countryside. Many of these posts so far are on about Tesco, maybe the picture was misleading.
I do not want any more of the countryside turned into concrete, or the traffic that will go along with building a supermarket on the outskirts of town.
Is there not enough empty shops in town to accommodate another supermarket?
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You definately do not want a Tesco – here in Reading we have 10 and other supermarkets are beginning to close down – a Co-op last week and the prices are going up all the time. Petrol goes up when there are special offers – KEEP TESCO OUT
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Yes Yes Yes, bring Tesco to Jersey. The supermarkets here are too expensive, offer poor quality products and lack variety. Competition is healthy !
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Checkers at Red Houses had a range of French goods at one stage and they were gradually scaled back due to lack of demand.
We may be close to Normandy but we like our baked beans, burgers and tea.
There is probably more demand for Portuguese and Polish speciality foods in the island.
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This is straight WALMART problems.
We’ll end up with an out of town Tesco 24 selling most things cheaply and poorly… and no other retailers at all.. oh and the tax will not be paid on island either.
This is Alan Maclean using both brain cells simultaneously .. unusual and worryingly wrong!
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put them down the waterfront,anymore farming land taken up and we will have to move the cows to durells
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I honestly don’t understand why people are objecting, if you don’t want to shop there don’t,stick with what we have. As Mulvie points out your shopping experience will be the better for it as the current supermarkets will be less busy ( empty more like ) and you will be able to shop and park more easily.
Who knows they may even remove the “can’t park anywhere near the shop unless you have kids” restrictions.
The only legitimate objections I can imagine are from the CI Traders shareholders and the Nimby’s and they can’t be a majority.
Let em in and give us a choice, after all those voting against are really saying I don’t want it and I don’t want you to have it either.
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I see Zummerzet Zak, all those who have differing opinions to yours ‘talk rubbish’, an interesting analogy.
As for your example, Jersey isn’t a town, nor is it like a ‘somerset town’. I’ve travelled throughout Somerset at various times over the last 4 years, all be it briefly, and I came across no ‘towns’ that compare in any way to Jersey. Jersey isn’t a town and nor is it trying to be. We’re a busy and overly populated island with little competition and high prices.
‘Local businesses’ are disappearing here regardless of larger retailers coming over, there isn’t business for it. No matter how many people answer polls saying “I’d rather buy local”, when it comes down to it I’d guess most of them don’t, not in the current climate. If they did we wouldn’t be seeing more businesses struggling and closing down like we are. Tesco offer something different, it might not be suitable for a ‘somerset town’ but small somerset towns don’t have a population creeping upward of 100,000 people.
We don’t have the luxury of jumping in the car and heading upto Bristol when we DO need an alternative. Especially not with ridiculous prices for sea travel (coincidently a side effect of absolutely zero competition…).
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Yep no problem. As long as I can have planning permission to build a house in the protected country side where I have land. I wait with bated breath.Our politicans move the gole post’s as and when it suits, it makes me sick. This is the worst bunch that has been elected to protect what little we have left.
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Pip some of us prefer the food from across the way. Since Jersey is so closely linked to both Brittany and Normandy historically, why not have closer ties for commerce? You know it makes sense as we are only 14 miles from Normandy and 26 miles from Brittany.
If you think green, you would agree that excessive food miles don’t make sense, wouldn’t you?
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NO,NO,NO,NO,NO TESCO!!!!!
A 3rd supermarket maybe but please no Tesco! This island will suffer from it in the end.
If any, It has to be French. Jersey is becoming too Anglified.
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In response to post ’12′.
If ‘moving with the times’ means being like the UK – having 24 hour supermarkets 7 days a week, I’d rather be a behind the times islander.
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Why cant Dandara open a shop for us locals offering quality and value.
They already provide the island with luxury housing that all can afford,so why not have a Dandara superstore perhaps best integrated by calling the store “La Bargain bijou store”.
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People have short memories I am afraid to say. Morrisons decided that they did not wish to operate off shore outlets, and that is why they sold up. Tesco’s may be interested but they would have to be happy with the logistics of supplying an offshore outlet, and teh expected footfall. Then they would wish to build something resembling an aircraft hanger, which this article implies would be allowed, notwithstanding the local operators being required to build in keeping with the surroundings.
While I enjoy my visits to Tesco when in the UK, their stores, once established expand and expand. (The one I visit at Havant has recently been extended and other stores have opened next door. With ample free parking, who needs a town )
The powers that be need to tread carefully on this one, I think.
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French Supermarkets? No point really, at the end of the day the island is mainly British and we like our HP Sauce and baked beans. As pointed out before there is a French section already in Checkers Red Houses so a supermarket full of French produce would only appeal to the minority and certainly I wouldn’t do my weekly shop there.
In terms of prices I recently visited Tesco in Haverfordwest and on quite a few goods prices were not that different. But I would welcome another operator here such as Sainsburys or Tesco.
On another point it does amaze me how people use the presinct Checkers in Red houses which is only a stones throw away from the big Checkers when it is open even though they have to pay about 20% extra in the presinct as its a Checkers Express! Also amazes me how many people do thier full food shopping on a Sunday in the express store, again paying more! Why why why??!!
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To all of those people who are wanting a new supermarket and believe it will drive prices down I would ask did you want Spa coming here as well. Since the Spa has come here it has resulted in price hiking when you go to your local corner shop because they have to compete to get the business they require.
Before anyone says the opposite I will point this out, Spa will buy goods at a small price then inflate the sale price. Your run of the mill cornershop can start off by selling at lower prices but then realises that they can no longer get the deals from the wholesalers any more that kept them running their business. Why, because the Spa etc have bought in higher bulk and have the capacity to store products till end of sale value.
This means our small cornershops can only buy small amounts of a product at a time and therefore have to increase prices to cover their overheaeds whilst the Spa and other new conglomerates simply rake it in.
We are an island believe it or not and are supposed to look after our own, what a shame it is not that way anymore. Go overseas, perhaps to the far east to see how people look after their own then come back and decide if you really believe a new conglomerate is going to help our community.
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Yes Tesco shouldn’t be seen as the saviour for Jersey.
Consider the German chains which are rapidly gaing share here in UK such as ALDI or LIDL.
Many of products are not known brands, but are of comparable quality (they are German after all!)
Check the ranges at their www’s below, but enter a UK postcode to get prices eg SL3 0HB
http://www.aldi.co.uk
http://www.lidl.co.uk
They both have a weekly offer newspaper which is 50% food offers, 50% non food.
Though large in Europe I don’t believe they have made inroads in France.
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If the inner town retailers weren’t so greedy with their prices and picking and choosing what they stock then people wouldn’t be crying out for a cheaper supermarket. I personally would welcome a tesco or an asda with open arms
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Yes we could do with more competition in supermarkets, but ABSOLUTELY NOT in our ever diminishing countryside. Put it on the waterfront or next to our polution free new incinerator!!!!!
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At last, talk of another supermarket, just how many years has it been since we had value, I have lost count.
Safeway/Morrisons had some good deals, not seen again.
The supermarket sector needs another operator in Jersey, please no further delay. Do it!
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No, I think Jersey is taking way too much influence from the UK. I totally agree with matt74, posts 27 and 28.
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I agree with matt74 and Adrian ,
TESCO ? NEVER,NEVER,NEVER !! But a French supermarket ? Maybe, now that we have a French link with Cherbourg.
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Simply No.
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Will someone enlighten us as to precisely where this proposed new supermarket is to be built in the countryside zone ? Is it perchance between Maufant and Hougue Bie? There is ideal space within the reclamation zone.
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of course we need UK supermarkets. Jersey is at the moment to much beheind the time !! the food is so expensiv, the rent for small rooms is to expensiv!! and the salary is so small !!
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‘It recommends sacrificing environmental safeguards’ surely that is more worrying than having a Tesco
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@ George #
“…How can someone in Glasgow order a TV off play.com and have free delivery, surely it can’t make too much difference in price…”
Because their TV will be loaded on to a lorry of a delivery company that have a contract to deliver within the UK all of play.com’s domestic deliveries, at a price per delivery that would be impossible to offer to Jersey, as it would require a contract with another company which would not have the same infrastructure in place.
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@ eddie #39
“of course we need UK supermarkets…. …the food is so expensiv…”
You need to understand the reasons for this, a UK supermarket would not be charging the same prices in a store in Jersey s they would in the UK.
“…the rent for small rooms is to expensiv!! and the salary is so small !!…”
Do Tesco do cheap accomodation now too? and are they famed for their high salaries?
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NO,NO,NO,NO,NO,NO,NO! I cannot believe the Economic Development Minister Alan Maclean is even considering such a thing. He should listen to programms about the beautiful rural villages and lovely market towns in the UK that have lost their character and little shops etc that the communities have always relied upon due to HUGE supermarkets like Tesco.
My family like so many others these days are turning back to quality NOT quantity in the processing and buying of food. The independent butcher and grocers are returning, this is good news for us as we have control over what we are able to buy, NOT what we are forced to buy because HUGE supermarkets will wipe out that freedom of choice. We have enough supermarkets for the size of Jersey.
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#30 “People have short memories I am afraid to say. Morrisons decided that they did not wish to operate off shore outlets, and that is why they sold up.”
My memory of that disgraceful episode has not faded, Warren. I think that your explanation of the event is simplistic, to say the least!
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I live on the main land and Tesco’s here are a nightmare they buy up all the small outlets and put in what they call “Tesco Express”. There are no butchers or green grocers left in the town here as they could not compete with tesco prices
DO NOT LET THEM COME TO YOUR ISLAND, all your local shops will not survive
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Yes just bring them in and leave town to develop as a coffe, charity and UK franchise meca.
Out of town shopping on a grand scale with all the choice you could ask for and then there’s the internet for whatever they haven’t catered for.
New tourism slogan pasted around the cities and towns of the UK “Come to Jersey – same language – currency – food – drinks and shops. A real home from home”
Just found out that one of my favourite new local shops in Burrard St, offering a huge range of fair trade and ecological products not before availble locally, is to close its doors after only 15 months trading.
I don’t expect that this will be the only local business to shut its doors this year. But then who cares, its cheaper online, sometimes.
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#31
“Also amazes me how many people do thier full food shopping on a Sunday in the express store, again paying more! Why why why??!! ”
Most likely because they enjoy a little natter with the checkout girl who they always go to because she is so narce, eh, and calls them “Mulluv”?
Jersey shoppers are an absolute pushover where these firms are concerned. the last thing most inhabitants of this fools paradise have on their minds is price!
Just look at how many people never check fuel prices before choosing where to fill up.
As someone who visits Tesco from time to time, I can’t see why people rave about it. Give me Aldi or Lidl. Preferably both – it gives choice and keeps both on their toes.
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Pip Clement (20) We may be close to Normandy but we like our baked bean
Yes Pip, because there is no alternative, all our freight links are with the UK. Also baked beans are in origin a Guernsey receipt commercialised by Heinz. A bad example of an import into the Channel Isles.
Tesco, for all its many faults, is able to drive down prices by elimination waste within the supply chain. There are millions to be saved in Jersey. Easily enough to cover a few more States of Jersey cock-ups.
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Reg C.Coutanche (36) Maybe, now that we have a French link with Cherbourg.
Yes. A French alternative to Tesco, may be a viable and interesting alternative to Tesco.
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A better approach would be for the JCRA to tell Sandpiper to sell some of their existing businesses: Safeway, Checkers, Checkers Express and the M&S Franchises mean that with the exception of the Co-Op pretty much all food retailing is part of a single group.
That is what destroys competition. If one of the Checkers, the Safeway and 2 M&S foodhalls were made available to competitors that would do the job.
There is no shortage of supermarkets: you can always find a parking space. So we don’t need more big buildings ruining the countryside. What we need is competition.
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Surely it’s mere coincidence that there is an advert for Mulberry Estates right next to this article on the main web page!
PS for those who don’t know the owner is mentioned on this page as well!
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It’s pretty simple – bring in a new supermarket, and if you don’t like it don’t shop there. Let the people who enjoy choice have some and stop trying to ruin it for everybody.
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Yes for a new supermarket but not on the countryside.
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If Mr MacLean wants to impress we the public, and make a name for himself big time;
He must not have ideas of contributing to the desecration of our LITTLE Island.
It never ceases to amaze me how politicians try to convince the public, that what they are suggesting should be done; is what they really are in desperate need of .It is called sweet talk.The sweetness being laid on with a trowel.
If a mouth shouts long enough that something is so, eventually, most will be brainwashed.
It is sometimes not difficult to brain wash people, especially when they are already disillusioned.
Tricking them into believing, that this IS what they want
Well Jersey people are not as daft, as they are thought to be.
My suggestion to Mr. Maclean is, if he wants to desecrate something somewhere, he pushes off and finds somewhere else to do it, where there is a lot more room for his grandiose ideas.
Perhaps, one of the undeveloped land masses, like the North Pole. I am sure that could challenge his desire to make a name for himself! Leave our dear Jersey with some land, for the children of today, so that they may show their own children one day, how beautiful this island is.
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I can’t see it ever happening but god forbid that anyone would want a Tesco is behond belief their products are at the lowest range ever. I would love a Champion or any French retail outlet to come in but Tesco oh no ykh
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to prove my point look at page 37 of the Daily Mail today!!!
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Lidl or Aldi have different sized stores and could fit easily somewhere in town.
There are too many furniture and clothes shops in town,and not a lot of food outlets.
Hisnibs on the telly last night from C of C reckons we have plenty of farm shops and don,t need any more food shops
Farm shops a joke.mini markets more like it selling luxury food twice the price of supermarkets.
As for morrisons they were made an offer they couldn’t refuse and done hours before new competition regulation started IMO.
A done deal.
It was too popular and had to go,same as benest.
We were left with 2 supermarkets instead of 4.
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NOOOOO! What a crock! How can you just relax the laws because you think this might be quite a good idea. The law – Is the law! and it is so for a reason.
No to Tesco
No to ruining more of our countryside
No to bending rules to suit what the developers might think.
We have more than enough supermarkets already. And from what I recall every cheap english supermarket that has come over here has failed so far. Then we will be left with a building in a place nobody wanted one.
NO!
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Such a rezoning will allow a major UK supermarket to set up in Jersey on the cheap – thus instantly undercutting local stores. From many of the comments it appears that the local perception is that the UK supermarkets chains are run by cuddly charities whose purpose is some form of social support. I am not sure if this is just greed or whether so many local people are blind to the fact that these supermarkets are all very aggressive business units whose only motive is to maximise profits, pay huge bonuses to the elite executive and shareholders. Generally the pay and conditions for staff are very basic and they use their huge market dominance to decimate the smaller local shops and their bulk buying tactics have all but destroyed the smaller farm units which have been replaced by the massive factory farms.
Of course such a supermarket will cut prices, leaving Island shops empty and allowing these to be bought out cheaply. But as soon as the competition has been swallowed up they will want to maximise profits and with no competition there will be no ceiling for prices, Islanders being paid minimum wages and everybody currently working in the retail or allied trades out of work.
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There are now 23 Spar outlets in Jersey, the price of their goods are at best prohibitive, add the combined floor area of these overpriced shops together and you would have an area as big as a supermarket, the way it was created went sort of unnoticed.
Bring on another supermarket A.S.A.P. and erect it where flats are proposed, all they are interested in Jersey are flats, flats, and more flats, there are over 1,000 already up for sale.
Another supermarket would at least give us some competition and just as important, choice.
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OK I have nothing against a new supermarket in Jersey – Especially if it is a Tescos. it would bring diversity and cost of living down in Jersey, but I am very upet that the thought is to develop this supermarket on undeveloped land -What are you thinking ?!! Jersey is already overpopulated and getting uglier by the year with all these developments that no one seems to like – please don’t spoil it even more : (
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It’s a simple point but it needs repeating: we don’t need a new supermarket. There is the Checkers at Longueville, in Town and at St Brelades, the Co-op Grande Marche, numerous smaller Co-ops and Checkers express, the thing at the bottom of Trinity Hill, five M&S food halls. Then there are the farm shops all over the place and the markets in town etc.
That’s a lot for a population of 90,000. More than any comparable town in the UK would have.
What we need is competition. Keep the countryside green, and be especially vigilent to stop the suburbanisation of this still beautiful island.
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The trouble with Tesco and any of the large operators is that it doesn’t end with the selling of food, which by its nature should be competitive and encouraged. Tesco and the like cannot help themselves as they gradually encroach on many other commodities and trades such as insurance, mobile phones, televisions, fashion ware, children’s clothing, banking, credit cards,etc, etc. to the detriment of the smaller trader who evnetually goes out of business, leaving empty shops everywhere.
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The ugly Odean building is free, perfect place for a new supermarket, HOWEVER don’t expect the prices to be cheap, give it a year and they will go up to the same as the other outlets.
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@ bella #59
“Lidl or Aldi have different sized stores and could fit easily somewhere in town…”
bella do you not see that those sorts of stores do not operate independently, they are parts of a distribution chain, and that is where huge savings can be made. The cost of doing business is higher in Jersey because it’s a small market, and on an island, it doesn’t fit their business model which is why they’re not here.
“…and not a lot of food outlets…”
There are at least a dozen food outlets in St Helier within a 10min. walk.
“…As for morrisons they were made an offer they couldn’t refuse and done hours before new competition regulation started IMO…”
Is that the same reason they sold so many of their stores in the UK too bella? No of course it isn’t, it was because the Jersey store didn’t fit into their infrastructure.
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Bring it on. We have all had enough of the cosy duopoly enjoyed since the sneaky takeover of Safeway 24 hours before the Competition law came into effect.
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Take one look at this article today and see why we shouldn’t let Tesco in!!!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1258529/Protesters-bury-arms-concrete-stop-citys-18th-new-Tesco-built.html
Correct me if I am wrong but Tescos would not pay Tax in the island!! Who do you think would fill the gap?? The taxpayer that’s who.
I really wish people would see the bigger picture…
Why do we always have to be like the UK. We should follow the lead of places like Byron Bay in Australia who will not let these large corporations into their town. Last time I went there they didn’t even have a McDonalds. Bliss!!!
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#52 For once we’re in agreement. I would love to have ASDA choice and ASDA prices but it won’t be that way in Jersey, the prices will be higher and, like all existing UK chains there will be less choice than in a UK store. And if it fails who will buy the premises and put their own store in there?
We aren’t ensuring competition with the stores we do have, why not get that right first and then see if there is the need for another store? In the meantime I am increasingly going to local farm shops and butchers. Big manufacturers package everything for 4 or 5 people when we are just 2, it has cut down greatly on waste and as such has barely affected my food bill.
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Why doesn’t Jersey go back to its roots and get a French supermarket in? As far as I am concerned there is far, far, too much English influence in Jersey and it is time to cut the unbilical cord me thinks.
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@ Overpopulated #66
“The ugly Odean building is free…”
How ironic you should call it ugly, while I think it’s quite a good looking building; no accounting for personal taste I guess.
However while it may be unused at the moment, wasn’t a planning application already made an not passed for a supermarket at this site?
The issue being, I believe, traffic; which is why they want any new supermarket out of town. My personal view is that this site would be well suited, and the traffic problem could be addressed imaginatively, but I fear that the department involved lack that required imagination.
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i visit jersey a couple of times a year.although i do grocery shopping while im over there are things i bring with me from tescos.these things like coffee teabags,biscuits,baked beans tinned peas ect are cheaper for me to buy in tesco then in the island.the price of some things in your supermarkets are expensive.my veg comes from your farm shops.i love jersey but food prices aretoo high
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67 – J Lambrini – the Morrisons sale was slipped through in the final hours before it would have been scrutinised by competition regulation. The lawyers who worked on the deal knew exactly what they were doing.
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Great, lets have another supermarket……but don’t ruin the countryside and environment by doing so!!!
Surely they could “reclaim” some more land or use the Esplanade car park (and convert the present spaces to underground parking)???
Our countryside is rapidly decreasing and this stupid island will eventually become just a 9×5 concrete jungle……at that point the beauty of this island would have disappeared and lets face it thats pretty much all we’ve got left living in Jersey!
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….or gas place car park (with underground parking)!!
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….or just replace the ugly, unsold, overpriced Dandara houses/flats instead
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I fancy a nice extension out the back and, while I am at it, a second house in the garden to sell with a view to a profit.
I live in the countryside or green zone where, I have been told, no means no.
Can I have an exception made please? Or is there one law for one group of speculators and another law for everyone else? Sorry, I think we all know the answer to that one, don’t we?
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I voted no regarding building in the country side that which is left on a small island. This is not the case for the second question, do we want a large new supermarket in Jersey. God yes the prices are a scandle and even though the prices of food would not be the low prices offered in deep Wales or the North of England they would make the local supermarkets work if not run for their money.
where the old girls colledge is, demolish or maybe belozanne will that be needed after the new incinerator is on line. Five minutes thought no doubt others will have better ideas.
Davey
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Reading the latest Jersey Consumer Council circular, it is not surprising the local supermarkets and Chamber of Commerce have objected.
The differences between Jersey prices and the mainland are not just in pence but in many cases in pounds. Hence the local outcry from our greedy Rip Off merchants.
Let’s have Lidl or Aldi so that the less well off can buy the basics much cheaper and we can all get a chance to buy some different and often better quality goods. Having lived in France for four years, I do know the advantages of being able to buy from these stores.
The other alternative is to put a control on mark up prices. Goods in Jersey should be no dearer than those in the North of Scotland. Supplies from France should be cheaper still and it would not be difficult to arrange a contract with a French supplier so that prices were maintained at the same level as in France which, after all, is only 36 nautical miles away.
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The prices of our food are directly related to the cost of shipping and the wages earned by those who load and offload the goods.
The Co-Op keep and re-invest a lot of money in the island which gets spent over and over again boosting the economy.
A UK group will not pay tax in the island and all profits will be removed out of the local economy. Like all shoppers I would like more choice but I do think for the size of the island we don’t have it too bad.
This isn’t a sound economic decision and what is more concerning is that the decision for a new supermarket chain to operate in the island seems to be fairly advanced, despite the fact that there are many concerns about what the island (as a whole) will actually benefit.
The potential loss of a green field site, no taxes, no profit circulating on island – what exactly are the benefits?
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#73. Heather
Do you seriously come on holiday to Jersey with teabags, biscuits and tinned peas in your luggage?
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74 j-cat
And the deal wasn,t done overnight,would have taken months to prepare.
In UK They will not allow the same company to open any more stores within so many miles as it stops customer choice and value.
Even recently the co-op in UK had to sell off somerfield stores to another group if in the same town.
But here anything goes.
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@ J-Cat #74
“…The lawyers who worked on the deal knew exactly what they were doing…”
Yes they did, but the introduction of monopoly and competition laws was not the reason for the sale, it would have still been sold in line with the re-structuring of the merged Safeway/Morrisons business.
The deal may have been completed to a deadline to make it easier for the two parties, but had these laws been in place what do you suppose the outcome would’ve been? Who else would’ve bought that business? Do you think an independent operator would’ve?
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@ BS Deluxe #75&76
“…Surely they could “reclaim” some more land or use the Esplanade car park (and convert the present spaces to underground parking)??? …”
Tesco already looked at this site, but required the road sunk for their traffic needs as I understand it.
“….or gas place car park (with underground parking)!!…”
Tesco already applied, but were refused. Anyway I don’t think that would be the best location.
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Can’t believe everyone is so opposed to Waitrose opening on the island. Currently I’m not aware of anywhere that sells behuga paste, tiramida or jars of speccia sauce. I always have to fill my suitcase when I’m away and now they’ll be no need.
It’s expensive but hey so’s living on Jersey.
Bring on the culinary delights!!!
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‘Can’t believe everyone is so opposed to Waitrose opening on the island. Currently I’m not aware of anywhere that sells behuga paste, tiramida or jars of speccia sauce. I always have to fill my suitcase when I’m away and now they’ll be no need.’
Even if a Waitrose opens in Jersey you will not get that kind of stuff, there are just not enough people who share your tastes to make it worth stocking on an island with 90,000 inhabitants.
I like olives stuffed with real bits of anchovy. I either bring them back with me or make them myself. The only ones available in Jersey are the vile ones with a squirt of tasteless anchovy paste in the middle.
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#86 There just isn’t the room in our shops for all that stuff. We have to sell two types of pasta, actually they’re exactly the same but one is branded in Polish and the other in English!
Do the shops think Polish people are too stupid to know it’s Spaghetti just by looking at it?
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J Lamborrari
According to the news article today they had already considered close by next to the Odeon, tear down the old cinema and use it for parking. I’m surprised by this because someone recently said the Odeon is a listed building.
It would be funny to see how Grande Marche would cope with a large competitor on its doorstep though
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Get the French in proper food, better ambiance and the chill out factor might spread to cranked up residents over here. They have a better quality of life as they don’t put work before everything else unlike many over here. They have their priorities right IMHO.
Pip 90,000 you don’t that do you? i would say it is well over 100,000 myself judging from all the extra on the roads lately, unless we have had a massive influx of visitors that is, and no one has told us!
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86
They sell Waitrose products in Safeway.
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If we allow the countryside to be sacrificed to allow Tesco or anyone else to build a crass out-of-town carbuncle just to give us more variety of mass-produced junk then that will be the final nail in the coffin of trying to save what little is left of the green fields of Jersey!
Once we permit this invasion then there will no stopping development in the countryside as all developers will argue that their development is of equal importance to Islanders and demand an exemption to the Island Plan.
Also we should be trying to help our local small shops and not aiding their demise.
Once the countryside is covered in concrete there is no going back and while some may like the idea of more variety in their weekly shop we will regret it one day and look back and realise exactly what we have allowed to happen to our little Island.
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@ BS Deluxe #89
“…According to the news article today they had already considered close by next to the Odeon, tear down the old cinema and use it for parking. I’m surprised by this because someone recently said the Odeon is a listed building….”
The Odeon is a listed building, but that won’t prevent it being knocked down if a viable plan that the planners like can be drawn up.
The 2006 application that included a large supermarket was for the site adjacent to the Odeon building, with parking above or below the store, the Odeon building remained as I understand it, and was not part of the food store development.
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WAitrose is already in the Island. Sandpiper have the franchise for it. To those who expect a third supermarket to be cheaper clearly they haven’t a clue on the costs of freight to bring our food into the supermarkets. I would love to see a French Supermarket in because of the choice not only of food but non food items but I don’t see it happen anytime soon.If heaven forbid Tesco came in UGH! the prices would not be the same as the UK you still have GST on it and the freight costs which are so high you would not believe.
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Please please please let us have another supermarket I am so bored with the two big ones, but not a French one! A tesco or Asda would be fantastic ! So please stop talking about it and get it built .
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A BBC report last year stated that one in five of every pound spent ends up in tesco. The stores are a very minor part. You worry about companies such as Dandara? Having personal experience of how Tesco’s treat their staff over here, and Jersy has a lot less employment protection.
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This is another giant CON from the com.and not about offering cash strapped citizens better prices and more choice at all.It is all about changing the planning laws to build on what has hitherto been green land,the rape and pillage of the countryside,a Govt that can’t and wont control it’s insatiable spending,wants to let in more people and dilute our quality of life, the infrastructure is ailing as it is try to see a specialist at the hospital and see how long, and still they want to let in more,the incinerator and the extension at Val de la mare resevoir all spell unbridled overcrowding = more houses =scrap the countryside rules and finish the island off
Hello ruined quality of life forever more..let them know you see through these lies..if it was about another shop it could have been in town…so why not…? let us be against our own downfall…the jews were lured into the gas chambers .as they were told they were really nice showers,something that they..yes wanted..wrong.
again lied to by those with the power.
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personally, if we are to have another supermarket I’d prefer it to be a continental group.
Super Valu (well the ones I’ve been to in Spain)offer a great variety of food at reasonable prices….even with the poor fx rate to the Euro!
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just a point….the minister for economic development is also an estate agent.Says it all
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Don’t build supermarket here on Jersey.
Rather build a bridge to France, even toll bridge. That will sort out high food prices problems, and few others as well.
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“Rather build a bridge to France, even toll bridge. That will sort out high food prices problems, and few others as well.”
Build that bridge and Jersey will inevitably become a left hand drive area.
Great for the motor trade, no doubt, and the continental juggernauts bringing food. France will acquire their long lost offshore island by stealth.
Is that what most of you want?
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#100 Unfortunately a road could make Jersey a target for crimes that it currently manages to avoid due to being an island. Like my island back home there are certain crimes you simply cannot commit because it just takes a phone call to the ferry terminal or the airport to stop anyone leaving without being checked.
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@101 :
If Jersey didn’t go to left-hand France wouldn’t force that just because of the bridge. Bridge don’t mean joining UE, or accepting UE rules. Or ‘acquiring’ Jersey by France. If the bridge was build it would be border crossing.. With border controls etc. Jersey is not a part of EU, or even Maastricht, so it wouldn’t be just pass-trough like going from town to another town.
102 Leah:
Instead of making a phone call to the airport or ferry terminal anyone could be checked at the border.
Of course there are threats like increased crime. For many of islanders – drop in ridiculous house or rent prices is also a threat. For local greedy – it is definitely a threat.
But I can see much of benefits for normal, ordinary people living here. Much more than threats. Look at the bright side. Much more competition in food and other industries, much more tourism, no weather-dependent logistics, (not even mention ridiculous monopoly-driven crossing prices). Jersey could have a build (and it probably would) gas pipe alongside, electric connection to France’s network. All toll fees could feed States, if States made proper law.
Perhaps one or maybe few companies would have to go, like Condor.. but I believe that, in general, bridge would be profitable for Jersey and people living here. Cheaper food, cheaper houses, lower rents, cheaper home heating, cheaper trips to France and rest of Europe, cheaper export of Jersey made food, more tourists, and generally more business here due to easier access. And Jersey would no longer depend only on finance industry or turism limited by ridiculous prices of Condor.
Don’t you agree ?
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ASDA please!
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Everyone in the world who drives a vehicle, should drive on either left or right of the road end of story. Better for mass production, the environment and better for road safety. A win-win all round.
If a road link to France cuts down on:-
-over population,
-destruction of the environment,
-the greed factor,
-aids diversification,
and it makes:-
-people happier and more content,
-the standard of life better for everyone,
-house prices affordable for everyone,
-off island travel affordable to everyone,
-goods sold in the island cheaper,
-the island more competitive worldwide,
-the island more able to feed itself,
-the island self sufficient or much more self sufficient as per power production from tidal, wave schemes,
and it doesn’t cause:-
-too many adverse environmental issues,
-crime to rocket throught the roof,
-the island to go bust if it were to build a bridge,
then, I for one, say bring it on.
Closer links to your nearest neighbour and the rest of Europe is a good idea, especially when most of population in Jersey have links to these areas.
For those on about cutting costs this is a must, unless you are one of the ones who prefer things this way for whatever reason? A harbour and an airport do cost rather a lot, especially for a small population.
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It appears to me that Slawek has got a better understanding of things than certain others I could mention, on here.
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@ Slawek #103
“…Much more competition in food…”
If everybody goes to shop in the EU, you will see the closure of local retail, and just competition between the frence supermarkets for those customers that are now forced to travel at best 3times further for their shopping.
“…and other industries…”
Same for most other retail industries as with food retailing: massive job losses.
“…no weather-dependent logistics…”
I agree, very little will be being brought into the island except in private cars.
“…(not even mention ridiculous monopoly-driven crossing prices)…”
Oh, so it’s not just a single bridge you’re planning to build?
“…All toll fees could feed States, if States made proper law…”
I’m pretty sure the French are going to notice us creeping up to connect our bridge, even if we do it at night, and I’m sure they’ll not let all the tolls go to the Jersey end.
“…Perhaps one or maybe few companies would have to go…”
I’d put my guess at at least 50% of retail and non-finance companies.
“…I believe that, in general, bridge would be profitable for Jersey and people living here…”
But aren’t you suggesting that many people will move to France for cheaper homes? So the few people left here, many of whom will be out of work now remember, will be profiting how? After all taxes will still have to be raised, and you all but destroyed income from GST and income taxes and rates, while increasing significantly the numbers on benefits.
“…and generally more business here due to easier access…”
What business?
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Hello..hello..truthseeker to citizens of Jersey…this is Not about food or prices it is most definitely about Immigration….at least smell the coffee…..
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@ Adrian #105
“Everyone in the world who drives a vehicle, should drive on either left or right of the road end of story…”
Lovely idea Adrian, and if the roads were made from gingerbread, nobody would be hungry; and if cow shat gold we could all buy homes with pools and enjoy endless summers, thanks to having swapped horrible winter for sunshine 400days a year (yes 400, I added 35days; all of them Bank Holidays!)
“…If… ….and… …and…”
Ah, bless you Adrian; you’re just becoming ever more ludicrous in you’re postings; it’s becoming fun to read them, where previously you were really annoying me.
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Good old J.Lamborrari no ideas of his own but happy to slag off others who aren’t in it just for their own pockets. No wonder Jersey is in such a mess.
Nevermind in J.Lamborrari’s world of win by all means as long as its legal he will soon see how bad things can get. I hope he enjoys it!
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P.S. I knew you would crack at some point! Not long now. My offer still stands from the other post by the way if you are up for it? If not you can always slink off somewhere else.
Have a nice day now
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It’s amazing how there always seems to be money for booze and fags, no matter how expensive the food is claimed to be….
It’s just a matter of priorities!
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@ Adrian #109
“Good old J.Lamborrari no ideas of his own but happy to slag off others who aren’t in it just for their own pockets….”
You’re advocating a bridge to France to enable you to go shopping at cheaper stores. Sounds to me like you’re thinking about your pocket Adrian.
I’m suggesting that that’s a stupid idea.
So you’re right in that I haven’t suggested any stupid ideas of my own, and I think it is important that bad ideas are challenged.
Quite the opposite to what you accuse me of Adrian, but you’re never one to let the facts cloud your thought process and get in the way of an attack or insult are you?
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@J Lamborrari 106
“If everybody goes to shop in the EU, you will see the closure of local retail, and just competition between the frence supermarkets for those customers that are now forced to travel at best 3times further for their shopping.”
How can you be so sure ? I would say that because transport cost will be down local retailers could lower the prices to keep the customers. If they didn’t want to compete and lower their prices they would go. Simple as that.
“Same for most other retail industries as with food retailing: massive job losses.”
Really ? Or maybe retail boost due to much more turists ?
“I agree, very little will be being brought into the island except in private cars.”
What you saying is really very interesting.. So now we do have to bring in goods from abroad, and opening direct link will remove this need.. Because everyonce will jump into their cars and go to France to buy just few rolls..
“Oh, so it’s not just a single bridge you’re planning to build?”
No just one. It should be financed by States, but even if build by private capital prices can be much easier controlled. And while ferry company can complain due to high and variable cost factors, like fuel prices, etc, and finally they go and take their toys cutting off island from the rest of the world, the bridge will generate just minor and fixed predictable costs, apart from initial investment of course).
Toll fees are the way to generate long term stable predictable income, either for States or for any private investor. If French put some money into the bucket yes, they should also have rights to take some money out. But then, and only then.
“I’d put my guess at at least 50% of retail and non-finance companies.”
You may also put 100% to try to “enforce” your point of view. In this case +50% is as worthless number as any other.
Same story like with cycling law – remember ? One gives out-of-his-hat numbers to justify something ‘right’ in his personal opinion…
“But aren’t you suggesting that many people will move to France for cheaper homes?”
It could be. If people struggling to live here due to high rents that would definitely help them.
“So the few people left here, many of whom will be out of work now remember, will be profiting how? After all taxes will still have to be raised, and you all but destroyed income from GST and income taxes and rates, while increasing significantly the numbers on benefits.”
Again – “few” will stay and “many” will go. Do you have any justification for that ? I don’t think so…
If some went, some others would come. If people stared to move out of here house demand would drop, greedy landlord would be forced to lower their prices. I believe that at then end everyone would benefit…
That’s my personal opinion. You have put too much demagogy and almost no real arguments to change it.
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Shut up about a bridge. It would cost several billions and so nobody is going to do it. End of.
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@Slawek #114
“…How can you be so sure ? I would say that because transport cost will be down local retailers could lower the prices to keep the customers…”
You’re right I can’t be sure, it’s my opinion, but the same is true in reverse; you can’t be sure either. I just don’t think it’s a good idea to bet a couple of billion pounds on you being right.
“…Really ? Or maybe retail boost due to much more turists ?…”
How many more visitors do you expect to come to Jersey and shop for clothes or washing machines etc.?
“…What you saying is really very interesting.. So now we do have to bring in goods from abroad, and opening direct link will remove this need.. Because everyonce will jump into their cars and go to France to buy just few rolls…”
Well if people aren’t going to be using the bridge, what is it’s point? You say it’s property costs
“…If French put some money into the bucket yes, they should also have rights to take some money out. But then, and only then…”
Well I don’t see them giving away the land where the bridge touches down their end, so them taking from the bucket is a foregone conclusion.
“…In this case +50% is as worthless number as any other…”
Fair point, you’re right; but again the same is true in reverse, your figures are worthless too.
So let’s assume we can’t predict the outcome, only the capital cost of around £1,000,000,000 (a rough, conservative, guess, I’ll accept another reasonable guess from yourself if you’d prefer) is it a good idea, to build this bridge on the off-chance that it’ll work?
“…Do you have any justification for that ? I don’t think so…”
You’re right I don’t have firm figures researched, but I’m saying that if YOUR equally unjustified estimates are correct, and property values reduce as people move to Normandy for cheaper housing surely that will have a knock-on effect to taxable income, and the need for imported goods, something you seem to suggest won’t be the case.
Some of your arguments are contradictory of themselves, not just of mine.
“…That’s my personal opinion. You have put too much demagogy and almost no real arguments to change it….”
Okay, likewise I’ve stated just my personal opinion, and could point to your unfounded accusation of local greed in support of your argument as greater demagogy than anything I’ve said.
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@115 mad foteus:
There are 19 bridges in the world longer than 20km (so more-less suitable to link Jersey with Europe):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_bridges_in_the_world
One of it, King Fahd Causeway in Saudi Arabia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Fahd_Causeway, 28 km in length, crosses Persian Gulf and it costed $1.2 bln, which is only 30% of Jersey GDP.
Judging solely on this example bridge to France is not so out-of-reach.. But probably you are right – nobody is going to do it.
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Physically you could build a bridge to france. But try to find the project financing for that.
Most projects of this sort need a return of 10% a year to get off the ground. Let’s say we could do it for £2bn (I don’t want to think of health and safety standards in Saudi).
That means the bridge would need to generate a profit of £200m a year. Or around £2,000 per inhabitant of Jersey. If it came in on budget, not allowing for repairs etc.
Lets keep it real.
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@116 J Lamborrari
True, my numbers are equally un-justified.
My point is that, althought I would like to see another supermarket, like Lidl or ASDA here, I don’t believe that it will help sort out hight food prices. Shops, market small – or super- are here (and in every other place) just to make money for their owners. Just like any other business. So so long as people are be limited with their choices the prices will be kept high. Simple as that. Perhaps prices will be few pences down, but I wouldn’t expect any significant differences in longer term.
Only true freedom of choice will sort this out. Ether by introducing bridge, or another ferry connection with prices on the the same order as on other routes.
BTW – when I lived in UK I used to pay 30F Dover-Dunqerque for a car, no matter how many traveling inside… That would be enough to keep food prices down here.
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@ Slawek #117
“…it costed $1.2 bln, which is only 30% of Jersey GDP…”
Just for clarity, could you either give us Jersey’s GDP from 1986, or a guide to the increase in building costs over the past 25years; just so those figures make any kind of sense.
Also, and this is just my opinion. That bidge you’ve chosen to use as an example, I don’t think would be a suitable design for any Jersey/France link; it’s low level and has an awful lot of supports which wouldn’t allow marine travel underneath. Probably a better bridge design would be the bridge on the other side of the same island to Qatar; it’s under construction at the moment apparently at a cost of ~$3b. Now I make that approx. 50% of Jersey’s GDP, but I shall defer to your figure for Jersey’s GDP, which means rather than being ‘only 30%’, at today’s prices such a bridge would cost around 75% of Jersey’s GDP to construct.
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Better do it soon than later then before finance goes me thinks. Then it will be too late and the golden eggs will be gone, as well as the developers.
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@ Slawek #119
“…Only true freedom of choice will sort this out. Ether by introducing bridge, or another ferry connection with prices on the the same order as on other routes…”
But you must accept that if either were to be put in place, the capital costs, and running cost would need to be met. I simply don’t believe that the every man woman and child would benefit to the tune of £1,600+pa to justify building any such bridge (and that doesn’t account for repairs or ongoing running cost of said bridge, of the loss of income to the economy which would also need to be accounted for)
It’s like you proposing, to save people money, that we make all food free; yes it’ll work… but how’re you going to fund it??
“…when I lived in UK I used to pay 30F Dover-Dunqerque…”
Very roughly 30FF was about £3 wasn’t it? Well obviously I don’t know how long ago you’re talking about (obviously more than a decade ago), but a quick Google got me a price of £74. So yes, I’ll concede, that if we could get prices for travel from yesteryear today savings could be made… however I have to live in the real world.
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“But you must accept that if either were to be put in place, the capital costs, and running cost would need to be met.”
Yes, 30% or 60% of Jersey GPB (I coudn’t find any statistical info about Jersey in 1985) is quite significant, and potential investor (States ? private ?) must have it and must be sure that he gets money back plus profits. But I wouldn’t be bothered with running costs. No fuels usage, no staff. Repairs, inspection – perhaps – but how many ? One in 20 years or so ? That’s why I believe the bridge is a good investment with low running costs.
After all – bridge could be more than bridge. It’s a matter of someone’s vision in fact. Why not use pylons as wind power-plant base for example ? I’ve heard/read about some company planning to build wind farm. Why not connect those two things ? Then sell green electricity, but also green electricity certificates to EU, and make extra return on this. I’ve heard/read about some company planning to build wind farm close to Jersey. Why not allow them to build such a windfarm-and-bridge, all-in-one, sharing investment expences and income ?
Another potential source of exta income – cable and pipes along the bridge.. Gas and fuel supply for the Islanders.. So perhaps JEC and Jersey Gas would be interested to add few ££££ here…
It is definitely not like proposing “let’s make food free”. It is like proposing good investment, not cheap, but with guaranteed very very long term stable and predictable income. Win-win scenario – good for potential investor – good for people living here, and also can be very good for environment.
It is probably not good for greedy landlords here.. Not good for greedy retailers… Are you one of them ? (disclaimer: I’m not saying that ALL landlords and/or retailers are greedy here…)
“Very roughly 30FF was about £3 wasn’t it? Well obviously I don’t know how long ago you’re talking about (obviously more than a decade ago), but a quick Google got me a price of £74.”
Well, first, by writting 30F (not 30FF) I meant £30. I should probaby write 30GBP. Second – it apparently was too quick Google…
http://www.norfolkline.co.uk (select one way, 4 adults, car under 2.4m height, just 7 day ahead) – £17 per trip in the night, £27 in the middle of the day. Sail every two hours. And Norfolk is only one of few ferry lines operating Dover-Dunkierque, and Eurotunnel is not so far away.. So ? Why it is possible there, and not possible here? Is it really only economy of scale ? I believe not, but that’s my guess only.
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@118 mad foetus
I missed your post in first place.
“That means the bridge would need to generate a profit of £200m a year. Or around £2,000 per inhabitant of Jersey. If it came in on budget, not allowing for repairs etc.
Lets keep it real.”
Yes, I fully agree – let’s keep it real and lets NOT say that a bridge will last 10 years so it must pay back in 10 years.
This is investment for long, very very long future. The bridge will last at least 100 (one hundread), very likely for much much more years.
How it is possible that such an investment is profitable somehow for other countries (or even counties sometimes), even when they do have alternative ground link ?
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@ Slawek #123
“…But I wouldn’t be bothered with running costs…”
Must be nice in your world.
“…Repairs, inspection – perhaps – but how many ? One in 20 years or so ?…”
What are you planning to make your bridge out of? You should suggest they use this magic material on the islands roads, ‘cause (and I’m not sure, maybe there’s some evidence somewhere??) that a road like the Victoria Avenue, for example, probably needs repairs more than once in 20years.
“…That’s why I believe the bridge is a good investment with low running costs…”
That’s why I’m not going to waste too much time trying to explain further why you’re hopelessly wrong.
“…Are you one of them ?…”
Whether I am or not, it wouldn’t change the fact that your ideas about costs and economies are just plain wrong.
“…Second – it apparently was too quick Google…”
Not a case of too quick, just I didn’t go searching out a cheap deal at 4am, on a specific day; I just took the standard price. If you’re trying to justify how cheap this bridge would be I think it’s disingenuous to use such extreme examples. For example, that same sailing over the next few days is £27, £52 and £42(for the nearest available sailing as they are not every 2hrs on everyday as you imply)
“…Why it is possible there, and not possible here? Is it really only economy of scale ?…”
Do you seriously see no difference in a market of 60,000,000, and 90,000?
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@ Slawek #124
“…Yes, I fully agree – let’s keep it real and lets NOT say that a bridge will last 10 years so it must pay back in 10 years…”
You’re totally not understanding the economics Slawek, you really need to listen to what you’re being told, and either except it, or come up with valid counter-arguments.
If this bridge gets built the money will need to be borrowed from somewhere; let’s use a loan rate of 5%APR; 5% of £2bn is £100,000,000, that’s before you pay off any capital investment. To keep the maths simple we’ll do this over 25years and not take any variances into account; so each year you need to make a profit of at least £180,000,000.00 to avoid getting further into debt. And that’s before taking into account any running cost which you don’t believe in!
Do you disagree with any of these figures? Can you seriously continue arguing that a bridge makes economic sense? Please offer your own figures if you think any of my estimates are wrong.
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@J Lamborari (125 &126)
I am focusing on proposing new ideas which could help Islanders, while it seems that your only one goal is to prove that I am wrong. You intentionally ignore ALL positive aspects and influence of proposed solutions, focusing on attacking side problems.
Lets see: mad foetus in his example assumed that since bridge is estimated at 2bln, deriving from his tat then each Islander should put £2k next 10 year. He assumed 2bln (fair enough) and TEN years time horizon (d..n far from fair). I just pointed out that using 10 years time horizon is cheating (I don’t know proper English word here, misleading is way too light). What was your response ? You completely ignored fact that a bridge will serve Islanders, their children and grandchildren 20 times more. Instead you told me I am NOT understanding economic. But yes you are. You just prove that you are economic guru, first ignoring all possible income and savings, and second using 5%APR loan rate in government loan. Have you ever seen any government obligation (which is a government way of borrowing money on the market) with 5% yearly return rate ? And I am not talking about obligations issued by emerging market economies, because Jersey in not the one.
Another example. I pointed to example of low UK-France ferry fare, £20 for car + four adults, as another way to introduce real competition here and keep at least foods and other goods prices low. Why you cannot accept reality ? Everyone can go to mentioned Norfolk website, put 7 days ahead date (which I wrote in previous post), put car + 4 adult one way, and everyone can see that YES, there are £17+£4.5 fares, Dover-Dunkierque one way, in the middle of the day, not only 4am as you suggested. You brought an example of £52 per. Yes, fares on that route can be even higher, I saw £100 and more on the same route. But that was not the point. Cheapest Condor fare on St Helier-St. Malo route, for car + 4 adults is on the order of £100, if you book 3 months ahead, Standard is around £140, and this easily peaks to almost £180. What I am telling you that Condor prices are MONOPOLY prices. End of story. Only TRUE competition, or alternative can change this.
What is wrong with you? Is your only goal to prove that someone is wrong, just because then you are right ? Are you filling better then ? Ok – fine. I admit – I am hopelessly wrong and just economic illiterate. Happy now ?
Now I am waiting for your proposal. What can be done to sort out high food and homes prices ? What will be economically justified. What will work in 100% and in long term ? Do you have you own idea ? Can you give any example?
Or you’re just focusing on criticising others ?
Must be not nice in your world.
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