Firefighters vote for action
Wednesday 17th March 2010, 3:00PM GMT.
Members of the Fire and Rescue Service Association have warned that action could be taken from next Wednesday
FIREFIGHTERS are threatening to launch widespread industrial action next week after long-running talks over the controversial public sector pay freeze hit deadlock.
The Fire and Rescue Service Association warned that indefinite action will begin at 9 am next Wednesday unless the States reopens negotiations over pay and conditions.
The industrial action – backed by 85 per cent of association members in a recent vote – will include:
• Firefighters refusing to cover staff shortages, which could lead to crews being under-staffed.
• Off-duty officers possibly refusing to be called in to attend a major incident.
• Firefighters possibly refusing to back-up the Airport fire crews in the event of a major incident.
• The cancellation of staff training courses.
• Firefighters refusing to tackle fires on any ships passing through Jersey waters.
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Get over it, I’m sick of hearing about public sector employees threatening to spit the dummy if they don’t get their annual non performance related pay rise at or above the rate of inflation.
I didn’t get a pay rise last year and don’t expect one this year, I’ve got a job which is more than many. Ride the storm it will pick up and things will improve, I thought these people were professionals, they are behaving like BA cabin staff.
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Front page of the JEP fire fighters to strike over pay rise and under this 30 jobs to go at a bank.
So states workers strike over a pay freeze when most in the private sector have either had pay cuts pay freezes or lost jobs this year but the public sector want to hold the tax payer to ransom!
Fire service should be banned from striking like the army who are paid much less and have a riskier job! If they don’t like being banned from striking they can always look for a job elsewhere seeing as they are so badly treated by the states.
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Why comment on what you know nothing about. The firefighters have been effectively taking a cut in wages for the past 6 or so years, with most having to take on second jobs just so that they can get by, especially with our ever increasing taxes. Firefighters train to do their jobs so that they can save lives, they see and do things that alot of people will not be able to stomach. They do so much on this island behind the scenes that people have no idea about. It is about time they took industrial action, because for the past few years, it is THEY who have been taken advantage of.
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The industrial action planned by the firefighters has more to do with severe cuts imposed on them by the treasury over many years which they’ve had to absorb and still try and function safely. Concerns were raised ages ago about the safety of the public due to cuts but now it’s the firefighters safety that is being compromised as well. Perhaps if the public knew how their safety was decided on through statistics and accountants who actually have put a figure on the price of someones life rather, they would realise the camels back has been broken by firefighters concerns for the public rather than a pay rise.
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Just like the teachers isn’t it…all these selfish people who dedicate their lives to serving the community around them and yet expect a decent wage and working conditions to be provided as if it is their ‘right.’
The sooner they learn that it is we taxpayers that pay their wages and thus in effect ‘own’ them the better; if they don’t like saving lives and risking their physical well being for others I suggest they go and get a job in an office at a desk somewhere like the rest of us.
Michael
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No 2. They have been offerd a rise of 2%, that is not a pay freeze!
Statistics show that many jobs are riskier than Firemen.
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Tom h…the 30 staff have lost their jobs because the company they work for sold out and has nothing to do with todays economic problems.
Mulvie…the reason there is such a thing as minimum wages, low paid and no workers rights is because the unions have been eroded by a Conservative govt in the 80′s and 90′s. Where Unions are representing a work force terms and conditions are looked after, private or public sector. BA staff and other union represented employees are fighting to keep these terms and not have their contracts ripped up and threatened with the sack. It is only natural to feel jealous when you see other people earning more than you…but if the shoe was on the other foot then you to would be protecting your job and career. If the up and coming strikes from ALL sectors, UK & Jersey, help to maintain a healthy working enviroment, then so be it!
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Ref 1.
If the pay rise was performance relate then the states have not got enough money in the pot!
Ref 2.
The bank employees are going to be covered by the states for their job lose. As have the majority of bank workers (finance industry) who have received redundacy pay.
And as a footnote, where does it state that the service is going to strike?
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Having suffered a pay freeze, loss of job and now a potential related redundancy, my heart bleeds for them. I praise the work that they do, but they should not be holding the tax payer to ransom like this
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EEErrrrr…………aren’t firefighters taxpayers as well, or do you know different?
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The Jersey Handbook of Useful Emotive Phrases.
Chapter one. “Holding to Ransom”
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What else do you suggest they do John the second? Do a little dance in the Royal Square? Write off to Points of View?
No-one is being held to ransom. The firefighters are merely adopting a work-to-rule approach, essentially a withdrawl of good will aimed at the States of Jersey, NOT the tax payer.
btw sorry to hear about your loss of job, good luck with it all matey
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Don’t get your knickers in a twist, firefighters will be doing exactly what the taxpayer pays them to do.
News Flash: Firefighters Do Their Job!!
Front page stuff, isn’t it?
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Ref 6
Dave
Enlighten us please as to the ‘risker jobs’
2% pay increase, but with a lot of ‘attachments’ on the HR side.
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7 Mark G – BA staff and other union represented employees are fighting to keep these terms and not have their contracts ripped up and threatened with the sack
BA are on their knees, their cabin staff have in the past been paid considerably more than comparative airlines with better benefits. This and the previous threat of strike action before Christmas has made things much worse as people are simply not prepared to take a chance and book a flight with them. This means that a company that was already struggling are now in very deep financial do do because of the actions of their staff.
Any decent employee would see this and say, ” you know what, we had it good for years lets help the company out and adopt a collective responsibility approach” as opposed to lets screw them into the ground. This may well destroy BA and then where will they be, you wouldn’t have much chance applying for a job in a saturated market with BA as a previous employer on your CV, short term selfishness is what it is.
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They are well payed not over worked its a good job stop mopeing
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Sir,
I am writing in response to pending Industrial action by the Fire Service.
I am led to believe this action stems from long running talks with the employer over terms and conditions,the later being the main bug bear,as a pay dispute in the current enviroment would be a futile gesture.
It makes me very sad to see words like selfish and we “own” them being used to describe employees, surely even in Jersey the slave trade has ended .
Thankfully we still live in a democracy and the ability to discuss issues with our empoyers has not been removed.
We must remember we are only privy to certain facts in this article and i feel that negative responses to a one sided debate is an opportunity missed to fully understand the concerns of our Firefighters ,and that of any other bodies wishing to voice concerns and discrepencies for example Planning, GST,Schools ect………
Your future is unwritten ,know your rights
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hey, ease off on the teachers and firefighters. these are the people who have decided enough is enough and are eroding there own enjoyment of their jobs for the benefit of ALL, it’s not all about wages, it’s about terms and conditions, it’s about the ability to do their job safely and effectively, for the benefit of the tax payers (which includes the firefighters themselves). if people actually read the letters and listened to what was being said you would understand better. yes it’s a hard economic time, but it will pick up and our states workers will be left behind once again.
how about we get behind them all, support the cause which is that the government of jersey is riddled with incompetant overpaid individuals who spend (waste) our hard earned money on utter rubbish. these are the people who need to have a rocket up the proverbial
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Mulvie Le Phew “Ride the storm it will pick up and things will improve, I thought these people were professionals, they are behaving like BA cabin staff.”
I had to laugh at this.
Do you really think that once the rough storm has passed that employers will be flash with the cash?
Do you mean as below:-
Resisting cuts to their pay, conditions and pensions and possible job cuts as well?
As far as I am concerned an agreement is an agreement otherwise it isn’t worth the paper it is written on. You might tihnk different though.
tom h “Front page of the JEP fire fighters to strike over pay rise and under this 30 jobs to go at a bank.”
No one is loosing their jobs at this bank they have to be redeployed to Guernsey as the company taking over is not in Jersey’s top 500 so is can’t get a licence to trade in jersey I believe. I’m sure Senator Ozouf could comment on this.
As far as I am concerned people have a right to protect their pay and conditions. It appears other people don’t think they do!
Workers should band together to protect each other not attack each other. Talk about scoring an own goal! No ownder it is so easy to control the working man if this is what is going on IMHO.
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Performance related pay?……I haven’t seen any fires that havent been put out…..
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Striking is a cowardly act
Working to rule is only slightly less so.
If someone is not happy with their job, do the honerable thing resign, or grit your teeth and get on with it untill you find somthing better.
Do not on mass say if we cant get our way we will make your running of a bussiness so dificult it will be impossible to run, so much so it will probably crash and burn. After all the only thing we will lose is our jobs, we are good employees and can get a job anywhere.You as an employer have got everything to lose.
Then threaten that if your refusal to do the job properly is taken as a display of gross missconduct (the refusal to do the job in the manner the person who pays the wages says) we will get all our buddies in the unions that suply your essentials to blacklist you thereby making it impossible for you to run a bussines with the employees who are queing at the gate to take the jobs of those who dont want to do the job as is.
If you are a good employee your boss will bend over backwards to keep you happy, he will pay you well and give you good conditions.Because it is in his interest to keep you on as you are making money for him.
But if your nothing but a useless troublmakiing militant unionist, hell bent on getting as much as you can, with no thought of the future duability of the company, the boss will probably be only too glad to help you clear your desk.
When will people learn, unions are only there to protect the useless, lazy, employees who only want to ride on the backs of the honest hardworking employees who emploters would be only too glad to renumerate generously were it not for them having to treat the former the same.
Unions lower all their members to the lowest common denominator.That is why they are not alowed in the armed forces.
Just imagine it, union shop steward talking to a squady who has just machine gunned 10 Afgan resurgents down in an hour.
“How dare you kill so many enemy,you are making your fellow unionist soldiers look like the lazy sods they are, if you dont stop killing the enemy we will send you to Coventry.
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So what are they threating to do and why?
Ok, i understand that they are not happy with a pay rise of 2% (although 95% of the working population would snap your hand off for a pay rise like that at the moment) but more importantly , what are the conditions that have upset them? Are they being put in danger by under standard equipment? If so, they get my support. If it is just upset about money though, I will be sitting on the other side of the fence on that one.
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Tomcat #3 and Thorpey #4
Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t the extra duties introduced to fire fighters’ contract simply bringing them into line with UK fire fighters?
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Performance related pay… incinerator, euros!!!!
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19 Adraian – ah Adrain’s world where all is fair and the common man rules. Once upon a time there was a… no hang on, that’s another fairy tale.
Adrain there’s how it is, and there’s how it should be, meantime back here on earth…
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@ Adrian #19
“…Workers should band together to protect each other…”
Surely workers, as workers, should work. People should protect band together to protect themselves, but while people like you try and cause division between ‘them’ and ‘us’ that won’t happen.
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Tomkat
You go on about the Fire fighters are trained, for their Jobs, what about the soliders in Iraq, they are paid very low wages. Now not metnion any names, but I have a friend in thier and the money he earns is what is fact they are one of the best paid Fire fighters in Europe, Yes they do a great job and yes nobody is saying diffrent, but lets get real here the front page said it all yesterday, 30 jobs to go at a Bank, and the Fire Fighters are looking to go on Strike.
Greed comes to mind here, and its tax payers mony
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Wow PJG – Cool down man – It seems you are still really angry that Mrs Thatcher lost her job
I think you need to re-read the press releases a bit.
The tone of your message is that the fire service is ‘run’ by a militant union who protects slackers and incompentants. I don’t think it’s really like that anywhere these days old chap.
The Firefighters are just threatening to work to rule, which is actually just doing the job they are paid for. They have not threatened to strike. Not sure how you can justify this as cowardly.
Yes, pay is an issue but it’s not just that.
They have seen the fire service budget CUT every year and it has reached the point that safety critical training is not happening enough.
Imagine being in the position of being called to a rescue and not being familiar with a piece of equipment vital to the job.
Do you:
a) go for it, knowing you might injure or kill yourself or the victim if you get it wrong
b) stand back with your arms folded and say ‘sorry mate, I haven’t had the training on this, you are just going to have to suffer’.
If you think there is any fireman anywhere in the world who would take option b then you are 100% wrong. Actually, forget just fireman, I think that applies to most other people too.
As far as an employer sticking up for their good employees, the employer is a national government.
The minister said last night on telly that even he does not have the power to increase his budget. All he can do is share what he has got with the likes of the police and the prison.
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23. joker. like your name suggests, joker. don’t comment of stuff you have no understanding on. makes you look foolish.
english firefighters get paid less, fact, cost of living in jersey is higher, fact. english firefighters by comparison get higher wages, you can look yourself on the website if you choose to be so educated, if not be ignorant and continue to submit your drivel. teachers wages i am unsure about but believe it to be similar.
the extra duties i believe you are referring to are the ones that are undertaken voluntarily without pay or reward, so to stop doing these “goodwill” gestures is not criminal, just normal.
as previously mentioned, and reported on bbc news and channel news last night, its terms and conditions they are fighting for, it’s erosion of our services, erosion of our education, of our policing, ambulance, prison etc are all being undermined whilst the fat cats sit pretty in the council of millionairs,
oh and for the record, if i remember rightly the council of ministers awarded themselves a bonus, just before announcing the “pay freeze”
so just remember that when you go back tom your finance job with a nice cup of coffee and a donut to search e-bay
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Joker, no the extra duties were already being done in Jersey by goodwill and no extra being given i believe, it was the UK Fire Services who took on the additional tasks and were payed very well for doing so. The local staff are basically going to work for what they are payed for. I see that Mr Ozouf expects every department to make cuts, apart from his,that makes sense then!
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Mean while back in Mulvie’s world scrooge is alive and well.
So I take it you would be quite happy to have your pay, conditions and pension cut because your employer decided it was the right thing to do and you would just accept it without question?
If you would you must be daft IMHO.
If you don’t stand up for yourself you will be taken advantage of.
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PJG total rubbish IMHO.
Striking is a last resort taken by upset workers because those in charge are not listening to them. The blame lies at the bosses door IMHO. If they can’t manage to keep their workers properly they should be sacked IMHO. Disgruntled workers lead to more sickness and less productivity and it is the managements job to make sure this doesn’t happen.
My advice would be to listen to your workers and encourage them to give of their best and not to alienate them. I would say this is not a clever thing to do as it can easily backfire on you.
“If you are a good employee your boss will bend over backwards to keep you happy, he will pay you well and give you good conditions.Because it is in his interest to keep you on as you are making money for him.”
The wrong way round IMHO, the employee bends over backwards to keep their employer happy or else they could well be got rid of. Employers aren’t employing workers for the workers benefit in case you didn’t know. It is a case of profit. If your employer could employ someone on minimum wage to do your job do you honestly think they would keep you because you were nice to them?
Unions have got you and everyone else the rights you have today through hard graft and sacrifice. I think you should show some gratitude for this instead of siding with the bosses like you appear to be doing.
As far as I am concerned unions should not be needed in today’s world. Unfortunately it says volumes that they are still required to look after the working man today IMHO.
Do you think it is right to kill foreign people because your government gives you permission to do so?
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I see alot of comments on pay, alot of comments on terms & conditions, but very little transparency at this time from both sides which would allow one to make an educated opinion on who the villains are in this dispute. Dont point the finger yet
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Martin, i don’t think anyone would disagree with you about the troops being paid so badly but at the end of the day, that is down to the UK to sort.
I think you should read the article about the bank jobs again before making comparisions.
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No 14.
UK stats show predictable jobs such as Fishermen, window cleaners, construction workers, scaffolders, and a few surprising ones, for instance, anyone who spends most of their working day driving: delivery van drivers, sales reps, taxi drivers.
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27. Martin.
I am well aware of the conditions and wages of our armed services having grown up within their environment and having family currently serving…separate issue, separate government.
It is also ignorate of you to assume I have no idea about firefighters’ wages, as well as your incorrect assumption that firefighters are going to strike.
Please read up, gain some insight and get your facts right before spouting off about a very important issue that you obviously have no (or maybe blinkered) knowledge about.
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I comment as someone who has served in HM Forces as an infantry soldier, worked in the finance industry in Jersey, and currently serve as a professional firefighter.
I have read several comments that compare firefighters to members of HM Forces serving in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Pay for soldiers has never been great considering the potential risk, but soldiers are made aware of the pay structure before they are asked to take the oath of allegiance. Believe me, soldiers moan about everything – including pay!
Many of your firefighters in Jersey are HM Armed Forces Veterans and have voted to take this very limited industrial action. Please consider this before you comment.
Being a firefighter in Jersey is not a dangerous vocation, but it is being made more dangerous by the increasingly limited funding for the Service.
More dangerous for us, more dangerous for you, more dangerous for our families and friends.
Please don’t think that this is all about firefighters’ pay packets. It isn’t.
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Adrian, you mean well and I frequently agree with you, but please could you knock this IMHO lark on the head? It’s getting rather like “Ginnot Amin?”.
Do you go to the bother of typing it every time, or have you set it up on an F key?
We all know it’s your opinion, for goodness sake!
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Adrian – So I take it you would be quite happy to have your pay, conditions and pension cut because your employer decided it was the right thing to do and you would just accept it without question?
Not quite that simple is it Adrian, if the company was on its knees ( as BA are ) or are facing severe job cuts in a difficult financial climate ( as the states are ) and I understood that the choice was to assist in a collective effort to enable them to continue then yes I would accept cuts to pay and pension to try to keep the company going. Then again I’m a team player and not a selfish ba**ard.
You seem to think that all employers are liars, out to give as little as possible and get as much as possible to their workforce. I submit that this approach is non productive as it discourages a workforce from doing their best, it disincintivitises. If the states where you get paid for turning up and doing a day’s work is optional then there is no incentive to adopt a collective responsibility approach.
You then find yourself in a position where you expect to get what you have always had, a pay rise every year no matter what is going on in the private sector. These are unprecedented times for Jersey, I’ve never known it this bad. People are losing their jobs on an almost daily basis, if your employer tells you you have to tighten your belt chances are he’s telling the truth, then again if you work for a company and genuinely are not aware of their current financial status you must be a dozeball.
If you are fortunate enough to have a job, be thankful, keep your mouth shut and work hard to keep it. Unless you work for the states in which case threaten to strike cos you’ve only been offered an above inflation pay rise with one guaranteed for next year.
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I’m Andy Fly Me….What do you care if BA go to the wall. The workers who lose their jobs will be employed by the other airlines expanding and on less money, which i beleive you want them to have any by the sound of your comments?
So why do you care about BA?
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Mulvie as far as I am concerned I honour my promises, it appears you agree with them being broken when someone sees fit to. If this is the case then why bother making them?
If you think this makes people up for the job and willing to give their best then you are sadly mistaken.
I see it as the management’s responsibility to make people as productive as possible by being positive in what and how they manage and to be above board as to what is going on. Negative management is to be avoided at all costs.
It is sad that people like you keep picking on states employees and all appear under the assumption that the workers are all lazy individuals. If you believe this then don’t you think to ask what about the managers? No comment appears on them yet the workers get a good drubbing. Is management a different company or something?
I would say that the green eye is possibly clouding your judgement here. Just because they have a union looking after their interests doesn’t make then communists unlike some on here seem to think.
Mulvie “These are unprecedented times for Jersey, I’ve never known it this bad.”
Indeed they are, but at least I unlike many in charge, actually predicted this two or more years ago, when many others were saying everything was fine and dandy. If they had shown the same foresight then the panic button might not have needed to have been hit so hard, and more contingency plans might have been in place to handle this. I prefer proactive managing of a situation not reactive managing of a situation that appears to be the norm now.
Mulvie “If you are fortunate enough to have a job, be thankful, keep your mouth shut and work hard to keep it.”
Sounds good in theory but what about in practice when good honest hard workers loose their jobs through no fault of their own? What then?
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They say they are putting their lives at risk.
How many firemen on the Island have died carrying out their duties in the last 5 years.
Now look at Construction and the Armed services.
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In The Know #28
“The tone of your message is that the fire service is ‘run’ by a militant union who protects slackers and incompentants”
That’s very perceptive of you In The Know !
How else can threats of industrial action over the same pay and conditions for all, good or useless at there job, to be read ?
Unless you think its correct to pay a man for the job he is supposed to do rather than the job he actually does ? Why not an increase the wages for the good workers funded by a reduction from the bad ?
Adrian says
“Unions have got you and everyone else the rights you have today through hard graft and sacrifice. I think you should show some gratitude for this instead of siding with the bosses like you appear to be doing”
NO Adrian unlike the cowardly unionists who want to drag everyone down to their level I have achieved what I have through my own hard work. I consider myself to be well remunerated and know for a fact I have better conditions and pay than people in similar “unionised” positions. I do not need to ride on the backs of my fellow workers, although not in a job for life I am pretty sure that unless I cock up big style my employer would not sack me out of hand this being due to my good work record.
He is not giving me a raise this year due to the economic situation.
I understand his position, and will as has been said by many posters here “ride the storm”.
If my boss survives, so do I.
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Some incredibly stupid and naive people around “we own them” err what!?? I wonder if said person will be saying the same thing when his carcass is being dragged from a burning building? What’s the value of that sort of service?
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Anyone directly saving lives such as firefighters, doctors, nurses, they should all be highly qualified and highly paid.
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As for British Airways staff, they are the greediest lot in the industry.
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I was in The Police, our oath was to protect life and property, so at 0300hrs I pounded the beat watching out for houses on fire amongst other things while the firemen were getting paid for being tucked up and cosy in their beds until thy got disturbed by someone like me and had to slide down their grasy pole.Get a life!!
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PJG “I am pretty sure that unless I cock up big style my employer would not sack me out of hand this being due to my good work record.”
I am sure many others have had this same thought, until they ended up losing their jobs due to unforeseen circumstances.
PJG “If my boss survives, so do I.”
Does you boss make money from you? Do you get paid for example say £50/hour and does he charge out your services at £80/hour? I am not asking and do not pressume to ask what you are getting paid this is purely to assertain if you and your skills are hired out thats all.
If he does and there are others like you he is doing well then isn’t he? Are your wages approaching his wages? Are you getting the perks he is getting?
Are you getting as rich as he is or is he getting richer than you?
Is he more efficient at his tax returns than you?
Could he indeed pay you more this year, if you are, as you say, such a good worker? Surely efficiency and productivity should be rewarded at all times, and not just in good times? If he can afford to do this, then he should shouldn’t he?
If you are as good as you say you are at your job, and the rest are the same at your firm, I would say you boss has a easy ride wouldn’t you? If the workers do their jobs properly there is little need for the boss to intervene is there?
If I were you I would much prefer to be working in a co-operative so that the business was part owned by myself and others doing the work, so as to get a proper return on all my hard efforts.
Why let someone else get most of the credit/reward? Why let someone else hold your job in their hands? If you are as good as you say you are I would say you aren’t getting the returns you could be, and that by not being a part owner your are putting your job at more risk than you need.
Obviously if you are happy to be in that position thats your choice. I myself would much prefer a more secure job with larger wages and a slice of the profits and shares etc as I would view my own effort is worth it. Maybe you don’t think so yourself?
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Teflon, did you leave the Police because your reports were full of spelling mistakes and the bad guys got away, oh yes and you were busy counting your 12 grand a year more than the firemen
Paul C, good constructive comments, maybe you will be happier if one does, through lack of funding!
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The working man has the right to withdraw his labour.those challenged over this are the Govt,not the public..they have no fight with us, They are one of the few groups who could pull this failed Govt down a peg…Go on I dare you.
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It could be argued that many of the special services undertaken by the Fire Service are an exercise in justifying their numbers.
If, in these difficult financial times the Fire service concentrated on fire fighting and rescue work – they would actually be under utelised.
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Toastedteacakes #45
Your 45 and 46 are at odds,
Are not British Airways staff, “directly saving lives” One only has to read the accounts of when an emergency has occurred how staff, “trained” reactions has reduced casualties, saved lives.
I agree with “As for British Airways staff, they are the greediest lot in the industry” though.
You are getting emotive, we are talking about jobs (skills given by an employer )here, not selfless superheroes.
truthseeker #50
The working man has the right to withdraw his labour
I agree with that statement 100%
Where I differ from you, is in thinking it OK to intimidate into liquidation the employer should he decide to accept this withdrawal of labour and replace said disgruntled employee with someone who is pleased to do the job.
Adrian
When disagreed with, Unions pull out the big stick (threaten industrial action).
Adrian. Surely even you must agree might is not automatically right and to threaten consequences should one not be agreed with is immoral and can be likened to demanding money with menaces.
If you don’t like your employer or employment resign. If there are no other jobs available become self employed, try that cookie for a while and see how easy it is. Its a free country.
Unless you are being intimidated by unions that is.
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Great idea – and if the Hotel De France catches fire again we could fly some firefighters in from Guernsey to make up the numbers to safely tackle the fire, whilst maintaining fire cover for the rest of Jersey.
Brilliant.
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53)
I would like to see Firefighters from GSY coming over here to try and fill their shoes. They dont know the equipment and they provide far less than the Jersey Fire fighters do. They dont perform inshore rescues or provide a line rescue capability – thats performed by the Ambulance Service.
Unions are there to protect Employees and most Terms and conditions Service members get today have been fought for over the years by these dedicated people looking out for members on again a voluntary basis.
Certain people on this thread forget – the ministerial government put the money on the table and then withdrew it in the states, which is not their right to do that. The dispute is partly about the removal of their free collective bargaining rights and the pre conditions set by the employer in addition to the pay offer. Fire Service terms have been eroded year after year and is becoming a safety critical issue for both members of the public and fire fighters alike.
The reason fire fighters haven’t died over here is purely down to luck. look over fire deaths in the Uk. they have grown expedentially over recent years due to poor and inadequate training. Thats why they are concerned over terms and budget restraints. FACT
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In a moment when the community is crying out for a change in leadership, policies and spending habits, the best Jersey’s leaders can do is launch yet another appalling attack on a workforce that is working hard to provide a vital service.
If spending cuts are necessary (and no doubt they are), then why doesn’t Jersey’s failing government start by reducing its harem of wasteful consultants?
If staffing levels in the public sector are too high and the terms of employment are inflexible and expensive, then why doesn’t Jersey’s failing government get to grips with a fairness-driven restructuring of its ‘top-heavy’ system?
Serious reform is necessary, but tearing up the accrued rights of workers is not reform.
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@Fred
My comment (5) about ‘owning’ the firefighters + teachers was intended as irony. You’re not American by any chance are you?
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Through learning a lot about firefighters in the last six weeks, I know that they practically have six days off in every eight. Work two days, work (sleep) two nights and then four days off.
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Six days off in every eight? You need to learn a bit more.
Start with this:
Firefighters are on duty and available to respond immediately to incidents for 42 hours a week.
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Sierra 2, get an application form then.
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t #59
All these cushy jobs are taken.
But should TLS keep his bottle and sack the firemen for gross misconduct, (he can manage “to rule” as well)there will be quite a few well paid jobs going to people who actualy want to do the job.
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PJG “When disagreed with, Unions pull out the big stick (threaten industrial action).”
Just think before this so called big stick it was a worker against the employer. Maybe you think this was an even fight?
Anyway even allowing for the unions, which you appear to think have so far pushed the pendulum towards the workers, have you not thought about what employers can use themselves without having to employ any black hat techniques?
Do you not agree that in the UK for example employers could make use of the following should circumstances warrent it? These include:-
the army
tha airforce
the navy
the police
private security
Also they have their influence on the government as well to fall back on should they feel they need to, and any influence they may have in the media.
PJG “Where I differ from you, is in thinking it OK to intimidate into liquidation the employer should he decide to accept this withdrawal of labour and replace said disgruntled employee with someone who is pleased to do the job.”
I have never known a worker intimidate their boss into shutting down a business. What is the point of cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face?
As per digruntled employees. Why don’t you ask the obvious question as to why they are? Maybe look at the causes and not the effect? This would save many industrial problems each year wouldn’t it? So in this case you give, they must have been caused to be disgruntled by something in the company. What is it? Do they have a fair point etc etc?
If a person has their wages, pension and conditions cut unilaterally do you not think this is a reason to become disillusioned?
What about the bargain struck on signing a contract, or does this have no validity? If it has no validity, as you seem to imply, why bother having a contract, as it is worthless IMHO? If it is the case then how can there be any trust?
As per getting a new employee would you not say, most, if not all, are pleased to have a job when they have none, or a worse one than the one they are applying for?
I am all for choices if there is a real choice but as you know not working isn’t really an option unless you are rich. Give most this choice and most probably wouldn’t choose to work, because of the increasing demands in today’s work place, IMHO. What does tihs say about work then? It is all down to cause and affect as far as I am concerned.
PJG “If you don’t like your employer or employment resign. If there are no other jobs available become self employed, try that cookie for a while and see how easy it is. Its a free country.”
Why should someone have to leave a job they could prefer to do, rather than something else, because they don’t get on with their employer?
Becoming self employed may not be an option for many for a variety of reasons not all bad. Anyway you haven’t gone down that route even if it could mean you get a better reward for your efforts. If people like you, who allegedly are very good at their jobs, can’t be bothered being their own bosses and cutting out the middle man then what hope is there for the rest?
Yes indeed it would be nice to try a “cookie” if indeed there ever was one on offer in the first place.
How can one be free when one has millstones around one’s neck? Wouldn’t work be a classic example, for the vast majority of people in today’s world?
At the end of the day all a worker is trying to do is pay their bills and survive. If you take away their ability, or make it a lot harder to do so, it isn’t a very clever thing to do IMHO. It can lead to big problems, and social unrest, if done to too many people.
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@ Adrian #61
“…Just think before this so called big stick it was a worker against the employer. Maybe you think this was an even fight?…”
1 employer, 1 worker negotiating over 1 job; sounds even to me.
“…Why should someone have to leave a job they could prefer to do, rather than something else, because they don’t get on with their employer?…”
They don’t have to, they have the choice to.
“…Do you not agree that in the UK for example employers could make use of the…”
What on earth are you talking about?
“…What about the bargain struck on signing a contract, or does this have no validity?…”
Okay, so where there is a contract are you saying that it should be stuck to absolutely? For example, if a union worker agrees to his contract, and the employer takes on a non-union worker for more money the union worker doesn’t ask to be paid the same? Yes or No Adrian; should the unions never ask for any variance to a contract signed by a member?
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J.Lamborrari “sounds even to me.”
Just because something sounds even doesn’t necessarily mean it is, does it?
J.Lamborrari “They don’t have to, they have the choice to.”
If you have the choice of starving or not starving do you really have a choice?
J.Lamborrari “What on earth are you talking about?”
Please click on the link below and read.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1926_United_Kingdom_general_strike
Then report back your findings.
J.Lamborrari “Okay, so where there is a contract are you saying that it should be stuck to absolutely?”
In normal circumstances YES.
I would say the bit where it says you wage, or salary shall be £x per year. (An employee should assertain whether the employer is happy to maintain this bargain by maintaining spending power of said wages each year, as without this the employer is reducing wage costs, in real terms, each year, at the expense of the employee.)
And the bit where it says you will work for x hours per week.*
And the bit where it says you are entitled to x days leave per annum.*
And the bit where it says you need a sick note after x days off.*
And the bit where it says you are entitled to x weeks full pay off sick.*
And the bit where it says your wages shall go to half pay after x weeks off sick.*
And the bit where it says if you hit the boss you will get the sack. (this also applies to everyone else in the company)
**And especially the bit where it says you have an indexed linked pension, when you retire. I believe those planning well in to the future would have done their best to secure one of these when they were much more widely available.
*You wouldn’t expect this to go up or down every year unless through extreme circumstances, or with prior mutual agreement.
**This is your gold standard as without this it is much harder to have an enjoyable and stress free retirement IMHO for the average person.
x denotes what has been agreed between the two parties. (whatever that may be)
J.Lamborrari “if a union worker agrees to his contract, and the employer takes on a non-union worker for more money the union worker doesn’t ask to be paid the same?”
That would depend on circumstances wouldn’t it?
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“…Just because something sounds even doesn’t necessarily mean it is, does it?…”
But in this case it is. If you disagree please prove it.
“…If you have the choice of starving or not starving do you really have a choice?…”
Clearly you do, yes.
“…Then report back your findings…”
So, by ‘employers’, you specifically meant the UK government, and only for specific purposes? Even though you countering a general argument about unions, you choose to use a specific example to ‘prove’ a specific point, yet you don’t qualify your statement as specific; an oversight Adrian, or just simple spin?
“…In normal circumstances YES…”
Come come Adrian, surely YOU don’t need to add any caveat to a yes or no answer??
“…maintaining spending power of said wages each year, as without this the employer is reducing wage costs, in real terms, each year, at the expense of the employee…”
Apart from what you are saying is not specifically true; so what? They sign a contract that say £X, they can’t complain later and threaten their employers the way unions often do. To use your own example, the day BEFORE the general strike in 1926, the union workers refused to print the Daily Mail, because it did not support their ‘cause; I’m pretty sure they were employed to print the paper, not edit it??
“…That would depend on circumstances wouldn’t it?…”
It’s surely a yes or no answer isn’t Adrian? You keep changing your mind Adrian, I’m afraid you need to be more consistent in your arguments. Of course the problem is you arguments don’t actually work once you think them through do they?
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Adrian #61,
I have been self employed. I found the security of working for a company much better for my family. thats one of the reasons I respect employers. Have you tried it or are you speaking from one sided ignorance ?
“I have never known a worker intimidate their boss into shutting down a business. What is the point of cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face?”
Textiles, Coal, Steel, Shipbuilding, need I go on?
“Why should someone have to leave a job they could prefer to do, rather than something else, because they don’t get on with their employer?”
I cant believe even a died in the wool red like you could pose that question. If you want to run a company on your terms, get your own company and take all the inherent insecurity and possible profit that goes with it. A person has the right to sell their labour, no one should be forced buy it.
“At the end of the day all a worker is trying to do is pay their bills and survive”
Yes Adrian so is the boss !
Adrian
This is the year 2010.
Gone, or should be are the you and us of the luddite.
Unions need to work with their employers to make the company profitable.
If that means cutting ones cloth some years then so be it.
Remember a worker can flit from job to job chasing the buck and conditions, in fact, this was the norm 10 years ago. an employer has no choice but to make the company competitive or lose everything !!
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PJG in the following example which position would you rather be in?
Someone like Bill Gates or a lowly worker in the same company? Which would have more security IYHO?
PJG “I found the security of working for a company much better for my family.”
How can that be? Surely if you truely valued security you would be your own bos, if you are good as you say you are?
Coal, Steel, Shipbuilding, destroyed by the unions. Are you having a laugh? They did their best to keep these industries going only to be let down by the government who sided with the employer IMHO.
“Gone, or should be are the you and us of the luddite.”
Yes it should be but it never will be as long as we have this style of capitalism. It is a constant battle between workers and management in many if not all companies would you not agree?
PJG a boss can shut a down an unprofitable company dump the workers and start again you see it happening all the time in places like the UK. Where is the risk in doing this? I don’t see much myself. These bosses can leave big debts that no one can get recovered from them due to L.L.C. ‘s, is this right in today’s world.
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Perhaps the Jersey Tax payer should threaten to go on strike and refuse to pay all these dissatisfied public workers until the economy improves and we all receive the pay rise we think we deserve, full guaranteed job security and an index linked final salary pension. Or does this sound inconsiderate and childish?
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as the saying goes “if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys”
I for one would be happy for the emergency services, teachers and healthcare workers getting paid what they deserve.
I would also be much happier for the benefits system to be overhauled so that people aren’t given “easy” money to lead fairly extravagant lifestyles without having to work.
Then perhaps the money saved from these very generous handouts can be used to pay the wages for the more deserving (as mentioned above) !
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Adrian (48)- definitely someone who has never run their own business!
“If he does and there are others like you he is doing well then isn’t he? Are your wages approaching his wages? Are you getting the perks he is getting?
Are you getting as rich as he is or is he getting richer than you?”
I really can’t see that with your “all for one and one for all” attitude, you would earn more in a co-operative? Would YOU put your home on the line to set a business up?
I agree with PJ on this one,
Who is responsible for the rent, the phone bill, the electricity bill, the ITIS returns, the Social Security @ 6.5% they pay on your behalf? Who takes the risk, issues the contracts, pays for the holidays,and(like most small business owners) work long into the night balancing the books?
That is why your boss, if he is lucky, will earn more than you – because his initiative and drive and risk taking will hopefully be rewarded.
As long as my boss values me, rewards me (within the means of the business) I like most, am happy to have a job.
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Samity the tax payer can’t go on strike now, they could when they paid annually but the states saw to it that this option was taken away with ITIS. Maybe foresight for once? Maybe not.
As per pensions I would say you if can’t get an indexed linked pension you are risking your retirement. The way things are going it will only be the rich who will have the option of any meaningful retirement soon. If this is what people want this is what they will get. If you are happy with this, then no problem, if not, do something about it, instead of moaning that others are getting it! Remember if the majority demand change it will happen. However voting for the same old “same old” won’t achieve anything IMHO. So the ball is the court of the voters to get the types in who will see that they get what they should be getting in fair and just world.
To me it isn’t childish wanting job security, this is what people like PJG go on about, that is why he works for someone else, instead of working for himself, so why isn’t it happening in reality for the vast majority of hard workers?
It definately isn’t childish to want to have some sort of retirement not dependent on welfare payments isn’t it? Everyone moans about welfare but then go on to attack those wanting to stay away from it. Not logical in my book at all.
What people need to realise is that there is a big enough cake out there to feed everyone properly and therefore everyone should be demanding a bigger bit for those lower down the food chain IMHO. If you think this is daft then what is the point of having money sitting in bank accounts doing very little whilst other starve to death? Is this what a compassionate and caring society would do? Does one person really need, £1B, for example to get by in life and to be able to afford to live properly?
BSD I would agree with both ends being brought in line. It is about time things got sorted out. Jersey can’t afford this luxury anymore, or should I say, the middle earners can’t afford this luxury anymore. If you are a middle earner you must see what I say has merit.
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Cathy if things were as onesided as you and others say no one would consider being a boss would they?
“Who takes the risk?”
Very important question to ask. Who exactly takes what type of risk?
Risk has been dramatically reduced by the L.L.C. How many directors of these companies loose their houses, or anything of real value when one of these goes under? So they have bills to pay so does everyone else!
People are employed for a reason like balancing the books this is part of a function of running a business. Everyone knows that this is part of running a business.
Should people feel sorry for those running a business? Should you feel sorry for someone earning a return for someone else’s labour?
What about someone working at say £30 an hour for a company. This company leases out this employee to another company at £60 an hour. I wouldn’t say there was a lot of risk here would you? All this type of company needs is people like PJG who will do a good job and make them lots of money.
There are two sides to every, story yes there are owners working very hard and employing three or four staff. I have never denied this, but not everyone in business is using this type of business model are they? There are other ways to run a business.
As per putting your house on the line do you need to do this when you set up a L.L.C?
“I really can’t see that with your “all for one and one for all” attitude, you would earn more in a co-operative?”
I think there is a good chance of earning at least as much if not more. Think about it, if everyone has an imput then everyone will succeed or fail on their group efforts. Would you work harder or not in this position if you had more to gain?
At present an employer could if they felt so inclined pay their staff peanuts treat them like **** and demand a big return. If times are hard and there are no jobs about these employees have little choice but to grin and bare it unless they decide to go on welfare that is.
Since these workers get little pay the state will be making up this shortfall via child allowance etc etc and they will probably be in accommodation paid for at least in part by the state. Guess who is paying for all this? Yes the jolly old tax payer you and me! Is this fair and just?
At present a worker can do next nothing at work and get paid a big wage. Is this fair and just?
At present a worker can brown nose the boss for preferential treatment. Is this fair and just?
A group is stronger than an individual and will outperform an individual.
Like I have said before there is more than one way to look at things. Everyone has their own point of view on things. I don’t think these ideas are extreme or communistic like many others seem to imply.
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Adrian “What about someone working at say £30 an hour for a company. This company leases out this employee to another company at £60 an hour. I wouldn’t say there was a lot of risk here would you?”
If there was no risk Adrian everybody would be doing just that – wouldn’t they?
A merchanic would be much the same as you have described paid £30 and charged @ £60 – by the time they have located and paid six months rent on a suitable property, complied with H&S laws, registered with the necessary bodies and bought a stock of paint, tools, thinners, sprayers etc. 95% would rather not take the risk of losing money and work for someone else on a weekly pay that they obviously felt was reasonable when they took the job.
You have bought up a number of different points which are digressing a little, but of course you are entitled to your point of view and I wouldn’t express an opinion as to whether or not I consider it Communistic – I do however think the opinion, and subsequent conclusion, is just a little simplistic?
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I am a Tax payer and I support the Firefighters 100% – they have to train hard and they work hard when they are on duty. I know quite a few fireman and none of them would strike – they are merely (saying they will as has been pointed out several times!!!) work for what they are paid to work and are not going to do overtime. They are there for our protection and it is not just fires they deal with, what about the flooding that many people suffered – who deals with that?? What about car accidents, who will cut you out of your car if you are unfortunate enough to need that specialised person who can use the cutters to get your roof off to expel you safely and without further harm or your child? Please think before you slate our firefighters – who were the ones raising money for cancer last week-end all in their own time for the sake of others – so please give them support not abuse!! If you cannot give them support then just try doing their job for a day and then make your comments!!
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Adrian – as a taxpayer and therefore technically the employer of these public servants are you prepared to pay the additional tax required to fund these pay rises? I ask because in the past you have been very negative towards GST etc.
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Good to speak to you Sanity.
A few points to a very valid question.
These are the following options as far as I am concerned:-
1. wages go up and we pay more tax for this if nothing changes.
2. wages stay as they are and we risk losing firefighters.
3.Also annoy them at the same time by trying to errode their pensions and conditions which after all was promised to them as part of their signing on agreement. So this is an ethical point IMHO. When is a promise not a promise?
4. those that can pay more do so and we don’t pay more tax ourselves.
5. cut some highly paid jobs from elsewhere that may not be required anymore (after an audit which I have already suggested elsewhere)
What would you do?
I know what I would do if I were in charge.
P.S. I believe that the firefighters aren’t quibbling over pay it is the conditions that is winding them up. So the pay issue may actually be red herring mighten it?
If they aren’t after extra pay then points 1. 2. 4. and 5. are largely irrelevant wouldn’t you say?
Please remember to do this job you have to be fit and willing to put your life on the line at any time of day or night. If you are still interested, as you may view it as an easy job, then what are your views about cutting someone from a car crash who let me put it delicately isn’t in a good state? I personally don’t think many could do this.
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Adrian
“It is about time things got sorted out. Jersey can’t afford this luxury anymore, or should I say, the middle earners can’t afford this luxury anymore. If you are a middle earner you must see what I say has merit.”
I am not rich but I am a middle earner and I am disgusted to hear that I potentially pay more income tax then some 11k’s in this island….according to Deputy Pitman’s recent comments!
Shocking and a complete kick in the teeth for middle Jersey as far as I am concerned.
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I would say there are quite a few who support those who allow this by voting them into office IMHO.
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Cathy what I post isn’t meant to catch people out or trick people.
I believe I have made valid points here. If people can offer a reasoned rebuttal to what I have said I would be interested in analysing it myself.
My example which I believe is as equally valid as your example would be:-
Someone works for an accountancy firm. They earn say £30 an hour and they get charged out to work for clients at say £60 an hour. Is this a very costly thing to do for an employer? Does it cost £30 per hour to look after this employee? I would say no as the overheads are minimal. I would say the profit was good in this example.
Now multiply this up by 10 or 50 or 100 staff as good as PJG says he is by his own admission. (No disrepect meant to him here by the way)
What happens if said owner doesn’t work for this company and owns other companies just as successful as this one. He may be on the golf course all day or living in Barbados doing no work just enjoying himself doing nothing at all. He may live in a tax free place as well.
All I am basically saying is depending on company set up, any owner of any company, anywhere in the world does not have to:-
give a damn about the employees *
work hard
work at all
work for the company
pay any tax
* they may not give a damn because this is what they pay the management to do.
However it is equally possible for them to do all of the above.
As per what you said here “by the time they have located and paid six months rent on a suitable property, complied with H&S laws, registered with the necessary bodies…”
Does an employer/owner need to give damn, get stressed, get worried, spend much time, if he isn’t working for his company and he has competent management and workers in his company performing all these tasks for him and they are making him a profit?
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@ BS Deluxe #76
“…I am disgusted to hear that I potentially pay more income tax then some 11k’s in this island….according to Deputy Pitman’s recent comments…”
Why the disgust? Deputy Pitman’s recent comments on this site were not the full picture, he’s just trying to stir up disgust in people to win favour.
Would you be as disgusted to hear that you paid more in tax to the SoJ (through both GST and Income Tax) than Carlos Slim Helu, the richest man in the world (according to Forbes Magazine) and worth a reported £36,000,000,000.00!
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J Lamborrari
I understand deputy Pitman may have been trying to stir up some anger but at least he provided us with solid facts that he has access to.
Why the disgust?
Well, as a part of the hard working “middle Jersey”, whom I would guess are the largest tax payers as a whole, I have little disposable income after all tax, soc sec, rental and living costs are deducted. I also have very little “me” time because I am working all hours and those I don’t work I am too tired to enjoy my free time.
Then I see at one end of the spectrum those who milk the benefits system and quite a few living in states accommodation who seem to have a much more “life enriching” experience than some of those who work hard for a living….at the other end of the scale I see that again “middle Jersey” is paying more than some of those who can comfortably afford to at least pay what they owe to the system (i.e. the same as everyone else in percentage terms).
I am working hard to provide for myself and my family, to not become a burden to the state or society and I contribute to helping the needy through my taxes and other charitable donations. I resent my taxes being wasted on generous benefits to those less needy than others and I resent those who can easily afford more but who are not even paying their share.
It’s about time people started taking more responsibility for themselves and their actions and relying less on the state (and taxpayer) to bail them out all the time and for the states to stop pandering to the very wealthy and start taking what is due to the island and it’s people.
Please explain to me why you think I shouldn’t be disgusted.
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@ Adrian
You talk a lot of sense Adrian my friend, but how do you find the time to write so much great stuff on this website? Its truly amazing IMHO. Are you one of the 1400 unemployed??
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