Call for new speed limit of 20 mph
Friday 26th March 2010, 2:56PM GMT.
Deputy Wimberley wants 30 changed to 20 in all built-up areas
DRIVERS could soon find themselves having to slow down from driving at 30 mph to 20 mph, if a politician has his way.
St Mary Deputy Daniel Wimberley wants to introduce 20 mph zones in all built-up areas – including St Helier, Five Oaks and areas of St Clement.
He announced yesterday that he intends to lodge a proposition with the States soon. Deputy Wimberley also wants residents in village centres to be given the option of a 20 mph zone.
He said: ‘This measure is aimed at road safety and an improved quality of life for Islanders. 20 mph zones are known to reduce serious injuries and fatalities caused by traffic accidents.’
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Personally i understand this idea due to safety, the problem i have is statistics regarding accidents, I can’t remember the last time someone was convicted for hitting someone that was fault of the driver. If there is try and find it on our wonderful web! The problem we have is not to do with a 30mph speed limit being dropped down to 20mph in built up areas its all down to education. Remember the green cross code! what happened to that or the be bright be seen! I have two teenage kids in my family and we had a disscusion about this a while ago, They said they were not taught the green cross code at school but they had seen the advert with the little girl who says if you hit me at 30 i have a 80% chance i will survive, funny thing is a friend of theres was taught the green cross code in the cub scouts.
What scares me if you go around town during the weekend there are kids walking straight out in front of cars with no care for themselves or the driver especially by New look.
A road is for cars cyclists and horses, a pavement is for pedestrians. Driving at 20 creates more pollution and has been proven by all car manufactures, and most countries. This is due to the car staying in a high gear with higher revs, If you have an automatic car try and drive at 20 and watch your fuel consumption rocket! Sorry guys this is fact.
Why change something that isn’t broken, Unfortunatly Mr Wimberley is trying to make a name for himself but keeps being shot down in a blaze of glory, The guy couldn’t even get his evidence sorted out when he was trying to stop the new incinerator and made a laughing stock of himself when they had to cancel the debate because he showed up hours too late.
To finish if we had a high number of speed related accidents in Jersey i would understand this action but statistics show the fault is normally down to the pedestrian being lazy, ignoring crossings or not paying attention to there surroundings and walking straight into oncoming traffic.
Here is the answer! if someone walks straight out onto the road and doesn’t look, gets hit by a car, whos fault is it? Would it be the driver who has done nothing wrong and using the road in the correct manner, or is it the pedestrian who wants to take a short cut and doesn’t care for there own safety putting themselves in danger, i would say the pedestrian. Education not laws
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Well Rosemary Bead is sure to be dancing for joy at this – however for most areas this speed limit will be absolutely ridiculous. Our traffic lights and zebra crossings have all been put in place by a clever committee of professionals under the assumption that vehicles will be travelling between 20 and 30mph – if you reduce the max speed to 20mph we will surely get congestion and traffic jams! Bath Street is a prime example – during rush hour you’ll be lucky to do 10mph but at off peak times a limit of 20mph would cause problems
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Ahhh, attempting to capitalise on the plight of the poor pedestrian mown down by that inconsiderate motorist on the underpass the other night are we Daniel?
I think you know what you can do with your proposition. (And, for the avoidance of doubt, it first involves rolling it up…)
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lets hound the motorist again, why not invest your time in looking for away to get unemployment down, mr wimberley.
jersey has far , far bigger issues than the speed limit.
or is your back to work plan to be the unemployed walking in front with a red flag..
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“This measure is aimed at road safety and an improved quality of life for Islanders.”
What by causing further congestion?
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No – No – No
This is a great way for the states to take more money off us but thats all. A much, much better way to improve road safety would be to actually enforce the speed limits that are already in place by using speed cameras. I dont want to see speed cameras in place around the island but rather that than making 20mph areas increasing the amount of time it takes me to reach my destination>Increasing the amount of time I spend on the road and therefore increasing my chances of actually having an accident anyway
If anything – speed cameras
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Or we could introduce some law to stop ped’s crossing the road anywhere except an actually crossing? In America its J-walking. Why should it be the motorists that pay the price when I think the majority of the time you will see it was the ped’ who was in the wrong. In Jersey that is.
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Come on folks, give the guy a break. He’s not talking about 20MPH island wide.
20 is a sensible speed for many places in Jersey.
Try walking through a 20 zone and you will soon discover that being able to drive at 20 is a considerable improvement over repeatedly putting one foot in front of the other in order to get from A to B.
Wheels are a great boon, treat their use with a bit of humility and gratitude, not as some sort of human right for speeding motorists.
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Tell me in town where you can go over twenty anyway? Try driving on the Mainland. Jersey driver’s are by and large much more courtous then UK. Yes there are the few, but they are very much fewer than here. Speed limits are the ‘Maximum Permisable Speed’ on the road. You don’t have to drive at the speed limit! I can’t think of the last time I have had a car in Fith gear on the Island.
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More daft ideas from the bike riding deputy from St Mary. Island speed limits are fine as they are they just need to be enforced along with the rest of the HIghway code. Cycles riding on pavements down one way streets in the pedestrian precincts in town etc and the idiotic motorbike riders doing 45 down an imaginary third lane on the avenue past static traffic etc etc .
What will he propose next 10mph with a red flag in front.
I agree motorists should use the road with consideration and most do but lower speed limits are not the answer, better enforcement is a far fairer solution.
Or as they say in St Mary on your bike Wimberley (roll on the next election!!)
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Being as we have so many people out of work let’s give loads of them red flags and get them to walk in front of all cars in built-up areas – almost as daft as Wimbo can i qualify for the States!!!
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Perhaps he should stick to cycling issues. if this guy had his way, the man with the red flag would come back.
Of course a 20mph limit will reduce accidents. So would a 10 mph limit.
It seems that this gentleman would like us to return to the days of the horseless carriage.
The 30 zones are slow enough, particularly where you are stuck behind some pedant who insists on going bleow that spped! Better to return to an all-island 4o limit. No-one wanted the 30 zones in 1987 and no-one under 70 years of age takes much notice of them anyway!!
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tree hugger
“the idiotic motorbike riders doing 45 down an imaginary third lane on the avenue past static traffic”
Sure isn’t imaginary if I can fit my bike into it. =)
Besides, lane splitting isn’t illegal. Don’t confuse confidence on a bike with idiocy. Idiocy is the car drivers that try and cut you off whist your doing it, achieving nothing but endangering the biker.
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We are becomming obsessed with speed limites, rather than road safety.
Driving south past St Lawrence School, as you approach the Parish Hall, Pub, shop and parked cars, you are supposed to be looking out for potential hazzards ! But no, in the distance, a large sign starts flashing ! It has a face on it which could either be smiling or sad. Driver and passengers start looking at this distraction, while the car continues past the shop, pub, parked cars etc.
Could somone please explain why we have these distracting signs, positioined out of the general line of sight for drivers ?
The sign in St Lawrence needs to be removed or repositioned as it is currently VERY DISTRACTING !
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i think it would be a good thing villages have 20mph havre des pas should have where there are lots of children
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ahhh…Daniel Wimberley = Rosemary Bead.
What a load of rubbish! I hope this guy is not picking up a tax paid pay check for this ridiculous contribution!
He seems as useful as an inflatable ashtray!
The current limits are of no use as it is because there are no cameras or traffic police to control them so what use will a 20mph limit be?
Idiot!
Besides, the roads are constantly being dug up so there is no chance of reaching an appropriate (above 20) speed!
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If the Deputy is so concerned for safety perhaps he should concentrate on remembering to wear a seat belt when driving. Especially when being filmed by the media.
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the flashing signs are quite good if you have a moped.
We have competitions at school to see how fast our bikes will go and the speed signs provide a very good way of seeing what speed we can reach.
Can we have some more signs please?
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This gentleman has an interest in cycling.
Migt I suggest that he puts this expertise to use if he wishes to improve raod safety. Specifically, lobby against the following:
*Cycling without lights at night;
*Cycling on pavements;
*Cycling against one way signs or systems;
*Cycling in the pedestrian precincts;
*Cycling without due care for other road users;
*Cycling through red traffic lights.
Perhaps when he has addressed these issues he might then, and only then, direct his misguided mind to the activities of the road tax paying motorist.
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#16 I thought the same myself.
Do we insist on flippantly spending taxpayers money and damaging the environment even more or can we actually have some evidence that the current 30mph limits are dangerous?
If we’re honest you can rarely get past 20mph driving through St Helier during the day due to traffic lights and cars being polite and stopping to let people cross the road. And at night the traffic isn’t heavy enough for 30mph to pose any danger to pedestrians.
Can we, for once, look at any collisions that have taken place and consider NOT whether the injuries sustained would have been less had the car’s speed been restricted even more, but whether the pedestrian was paying absolutely no attention while walking near or on the road?
We need to start telling pedestrians that roads are a shared resource and they have to take some responsibility for their own actions.
I stopped at a pedestrian crossing yesterday to let a guy cross, but it turned out he didn’t want to cross, he had just stepped onto the crossing to stand in one spot and play with his mobile phone, eventually I give up and drove over the crossing, THEN he decides he actually wants to cross. Some pedestrians are out and out morons and THEIR behaviour needs addressing!
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#3 Mike, I did wonder myself if that was what prompted it. Having seen where the incident took place and at that time, there is NO way anyone should have been crossing the road for the sake of avoiding the 50yd walk to the nearest lights.
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Chris
I have no problem with lane splitting just the inappropriate speed some bikes travel down it.
Furthermore 45 is in excess of the speed limit and undertaking at 50 and using St Ouens as a grand Prix track is. I have even spotted some bikes without number plates doing this…I wonder why!
The point is that far worse things go on unchecked than cars travelling through rural areas. Lets sort them out first
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This will never happen and if it did (April Fool’s Day is not far away) how will it be enforced? The Police do not have time as it is to deal with all the miscreants. How much time will be wasted on this debate? By time, I course mean taxpayers’ money as we pay all the politicians to listen to whatever has been dreamt up and submitted. It is time the focus was on the immediate big issues (with an eye to the future, as this is often forgotten), rather than waste more money. I for one am sick and tired of some of the needless debates that waste time and money whilst the important matters seem not to be touched upon. Fiddling whilst Rome burns.
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If we had gone Metric when we should have done we might have found ourselves looking at two ideal speed limits for Jersey.
40KPH for restricted areas and 60KPH maximum for de-restricted areas.
Perhaps, if people promised to obey it, even 80KPH for the Five Mile Road and Victoria Avenue.
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One has to wonder her real reasons maybe tax revenue?
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Looney idea. I could break that speed limit on my bicycle. Although without cycle registration plates, who cares!!
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Rosemary Bead you are unmasked, it’s Wimberley.
I maintain that it is impossible to be hit by a car unless you are.
A – intoxicated.
B – an imbecile
C – both of the above.
Look where you are going and stop blaming the driver for your incompetance. A 20mph town speed limit would lead to worse traffic chaos than we have at present.
Mr Wimberley follow these simple steps.
Remove head from ar*e, stop making headline grabbing statements, represent the interests of those you are paid to represent – NOT YOUR OWN.
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Instead of spending money on more signs – howabout enforcing the existing speed limits which seem largely ignored on many roads.
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This is an island with country lanes,has been a long time,we grow up with it,there are more without pavements than with..we know that..folks are not mown down in their droves because of it,as people watch what they’re doing and take care and, Oh no ! I’m gonna say it, sorry can’t help myself..”personal responsibility” Ah there I feel better already. Life can be dangerous,get over it,’cos you wont get out of it alive, I am fed up of seeing Tax quids wasted on things we should do for ourselves…I like Dan Wimberley enormously….but on this occasion differ a lot.
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In Jersey, many of us seem to be wedded to the motor vehicle and apparently just do not see the damage it is causing to us in so many ways – financial, planning, environmental, health, quality of life. The balance just needs to be redressed, that is all I am trying to do. And yes, I put quality of life for all above the desires of motorists, including myself when I drive. In Hull, where 20 mph zones have been rolled out for a while now, 72% of drivers favour 20mph zones.
Helen back 1# and Leah Holmes 20# both talk about the evidence!
1. “the advert with the little girl who says if you hit me at 30 I have a 80% chance I will survive,” unfortunately untrue. At 20 mph15% chance of death, at 30 mph 45% chance of death. (Department of Transport) This is why speed matters.
2. Leah writes; “And at night the traffic isn’t heavy enough for 30mph to pose any danger to pedestrians.” See above. Not true. That is the whole point. The roads and streets in an urban area are used by all, and we have to come to a better way forward.
Ah, she means the “pedestrian traffic”! Or does she?
3. Inside a car, “The probability of serious injury to a seat belted car occupant in a front seat at an impact speed of 30mph is three times greater than at 20mph.” Staffordshire County Council, report into speed limits.
Helen queries ’when was the last time it was the fault of a driver.’ Funny that I got a call from a man whose son had been hit FROM BEHIND in Bath Street by a van and was thrown head first into a wall. Speed is a problem, it causes accidents. But I will do as she suggests and take a very close look at the accident figures.
It IS broken. Unless Ms Back thinks around 400 injury accidents a year is just fine and dandy. Of which an average of 30 are serious/fatal. Go tell those who have just been hit that everything is OK as it is.
“cancel the (incinerator) debate.” This post must be some sort of joke. The debate was not cancelled, if this is Ms. Back’s concern for the facts . . .
Lula 2# “a limit of 20mph would cause problems “ to whom? A civilised street is one where no one class of road user threatens and spoils the quality of life of another. Civilsed streets exist elsewhere, why not here?
Lula and Joker 5# Congestion is caused by the amount of vehicles not by speed limits
Mike 3# “capitalise on the poor pedestrian” Don’t be ridiculous! My release went out before she was hit, and in any case, although some politicians may work like that I don’t.
Rozel 8# and Steve 15# Thanks!
Tree hugger 10# “I agree motorists should use the road with consideration and most do but lower speed limits are not the answer, better enforcement is a far fairer solution.” This sounds plausible. But how long do you want to wait? 20mph zones cut serious injuries by 40% Not to be sniffed at. We have to act on this, It is not just about the casualty figures though, it is about the safety and comfort and lack of stress for all users of our roads and streets.
joleb 23# I agree that Rome is burning . . .I tried to save the island deep embarrassment and a lot of money by stopping the “£106 million” but in fact £117 million incinerator, they did not want to know. I tried to change the policy on population of having more and more people in the island, with no end in sight, a policy which creates unsolvable problems. Again they did not want to know. And the Spending review looks like it is going to be a big disaster. So, errrr, not just speed limits.
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I paid £20k for my car, and I’ll drive it exactly as I see fit
It’s not my problem people don’t look before crossing the road
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29 Well done for your efforts on the health threatening incinerator and the rampant population growth too.and for the humanity to take part in public forum.why are the others so timid..not real politicians huh.
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#29 ‘What speed does what harm’ to a pedestrian is in many ways irrelevant, ANY speed could kill given the right variables. Pedestrians NEED to be made to use the roads sensibly, this is especially true for children and young adults. Until you do this there is little point doing anything else.
Every time I drive I have to accept the risk that some complete moron could choose to wreck my life just because they have no concern for their own. There is no comeback against these people, they are always the ‘poor victim’. What about the driver? Where did we get it so wrong? Day in, day out idiot pedestrians are causing psychological damage to someone who was just going about their journey as safely as possible. This is, to me, the real problem… that one section of society can do whatever the hell they like with no repercussions and no liability.
I have never in my lifetime come anywhere near to being knocked down, save for the one time a guy drove through a red light. He didn’t get me because I was paying attention and using the crossing sensibly. The reason I’ve been safe is because I have a brain and I choose to use it when dealing with traffic. This is not true of the many, many young mums (or others) I have seen in Jersey choosing to try and predict the light sequence and run across the road between cars, all the while pushing a buggy. Then there are just those who are completely oblivious to the existence of roads full stop!
Congestion is partially caused by speed limits, it may help you to understand this if you find a mathematician to model the scenario and do the calculations (although I doubt TTS has one). Personally I have neither the inclination nor the time.
As for the 400 accidents you quote I’ll be absolutely stunned if these have not mostly been caused by idiots (of the pedestrian OR motorist variety) who have chanced their luck time and time again, and are known to many of their peers to be a risk, possibly even known to the police. With the pedestrians there isn’t much that can be done to stop them crossing roads, but such motorists could and presumably should have had their licences removed at some point. And by removed, I mean permanently, a driving licence is not a right. Then there will be those that were inebriated or high. Again, these are people who simply should have their licences removed and never get them back.
Stop penalising all drivers unless you actually have the guts to remove licences from the ones that give the rest of us a bad name.
As for the traffic in St Helier at night, I regularly walk around town at night and I feel quite comfortable stating that you are entirely wrong on that front, it is not heavy enough to cause a problem.
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#30 Forgot to mention, maybe hooking those that have been hit up to a lie detector and asking if they could have avoided the accident by walking a few yards to a set of lights, or even just by paying attention, would give us a better idea of the real problem?
Also, what about the environment? I thought we cared about the environment? I guess not!
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Daniel Wimberley
And what are you proposing to do about the criminal and negligent pedestrians/cyclists?
It goes both ways….you cannot keep putting the blame on one sector of society.
130% of all stats are made up……so guiess what my recent studies say that for every 1 careless driver there are 1000 stupid cyclists and pedestrians who believe they can cycle or walk anywhere without looking where they are going.
Only today a stupid woman crossed a busy junction without even looking. If I hadn’t anticipated her stupidity you may have another “statistic”.
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Daniel Wimberley
….and whilst you’re at it please can you explain what these so called subsidised driving costs are (that you mentioned in another thread).
I do not believe drivers are subsidised and would like you to produce some facts. We pay through the nose in fuel costs, the roads are constantly being dug up through roadworks causing excessive aggrivation and inconvenience, some roads are unfit for purpose.
However, the bus service which we DO subsidise is sub standard. Sort this out instead of the speed limit and you may see less cars on the road!
Incidentally, how are cyclists contributing to the finances for road maintenance?
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Comment 36: Cyclists do not contribute towards road costs. They should, maybe introduce a nominal tax for registration of cycles. £100 per year should be affordable by most. Then perhaps that money could be passed on to the motorist i.e. reduced price on scratchcards.
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Leah excellent post, agree with Willie too, I’ve never been run over and I’m middle aged, then again I look where I’m going and don’t assume that cars will stop rather than hit me.
I too doubt Mr Wimberley’s stats, then again I doubt all stats, as BS Deluxe says 130% of all stats are made up and the other half are less than believeable. In America it is an offence not to look where you are going when crossing the road, why not here too, you wouldn’t prosecute a tree if someone walked into it why a car driver?
I simply cannot imagine how it is possible to get run over when crossing the road providing you are awake and alert. Children should be educated as to how to cross safely, if unable to do so they should be under the supervision of a capable adult. This leaves only drunks and idiots and I would consider those natural wastage.
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Wimberley. What rubbish the stats you are using are UK ones and have little or no bearing on Jersey conditions where overall road speeds are much much lower. Lets see the stats for Jersey in terms of road traffic accidents. AS far as quality of life issues are concerned the imposion of spped limits will make no differnce if they are not enforced. So stick with what we have and press for greater enforcement, far more productive.
PS make the most of your term of office it will be your last!
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I am really finding this difficult.
Well here goes, I AGREE WITH DANIEL WIMBERLY.
There I said it and it did not hurt too much
There can be no reason to doubt that to be hit by a car doing 20 is infinitely more desirable than being hit by one doing 30. Not to be hit by one at all would be of course be better.
But these pedestrian vehicle collisions do, and will continue to happen.
A 20MPH limit on and inside the St Helier ring road would make hardly any difference to how long it would take reasonable motorists drive across town.
It would though stop those who are hurrying to work / home from driving at 30 MPH along roads such as Broad street ,St Marks road, Halkett place by the market etc where pedestrians cross the road from between parked vehicles.
No matter what is done children will continue to cross at such places, OK ,so they shouldn’t, but it does not deserve a death penalty though does it ?
All a 20MPH limit would do is to make enforceable, what “good drivers” are doing anyway.
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Whilst I comprehensively disagree with Deputy Wimberley’s proposal I just wanted to say how refreshing it is to have a politician respond to comments on this forum, and not always relating to his proposals. I don’t know how many other politicians read comments posted but you don’t hear them having the stones to put their heads above the parapet and pass comment.
Come on the rest of you, what are you scared of?
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there are some hilarious posts here.
particularly funny is 31 beaumont
i spent £15 on a sledgehammer and i will use it how i want. does that mean i can remodel your nice shiny car?
for 36 bs and 37 ken – motorists themselves are subsidised:
1 when you count how much money you need for the land to build then to maintain/run car parks. i would happily pay bike road tax if i get a share of the rebate on the purchase and construction cost of just 1 multi-storey
2 cars wear out roads. doubt if i can do that on a bicycle
3 cars cause environmental damage – noise, dirt, fumes – do you fancy paying your fair share to rectify climate change?
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Most roads (apart from special times) have more cars using them than pedestrians. Where’s the democracy in giving pedestrians all the rights?
How many accidents involving pedestrians do we have anyway that are the motorist’s fault (eg. mounting a pavement or speeding in town and hitting someone)? Not enough, in my opinion, to penalise all drivers and make their journies longer and more stressful.
We’re in danger of implementing laws that halt evolution. “Survival of the fittest” (or in this case people who take care).
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42 You obviously do not buy petrol or a car park season ticket!!!!! Moterists pay their share I can assure you
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So apart from the cyclist and pedestrians going about their daily suicidal routines. Have you bothered to ask the daily drivers how they feel about your idea’s?
I’m not talking about the 9-5 office worker and school run mums as this is grid lock time anyway, I’m talking about the trades, the van drivers and everyone else out using the roads as part of their daily work.
I personally don’t think I or my colleagues would get any work done if driving between jobs meant hitting 20mph zones every minute.
Think i’m over reacting, what’s classed as built up. All of 5 oaks? all of bagatelle road? Mont Millais? St Saviours road/hill? TOWN? Queens road? La route de st Aubin? La route de orange? La route de quennevais.
All very very built up areas with lots of kids and people, however these are all major transit routes.
The fact of the matter I feel your wrong on this one.
Whats the first thing most irate people are going to do after sitting in 10/15 mins of backed up traffic that’s either making or made them late for something. Throw caution to the wind and speed! What is your 20mph sign worth then?
20mph does saves life’s, but that means jack when someone decides to hit the happy pedal break the law and speed. Can you stop someone doing it, answer = No!
What happens if all these built up area are made 20mph and traffic starts to back up?
I’ll tell you, everyone will just hit the nice muddy narrow unsuitable and dangerous country lanes. All they’ll do then is make what is already boarder line insane get worse.
Don’t believe me, go stand at the S bend on the top of mont Cochon at 7.30/8am and what the half asleep near misses that happen there every morning.
Of course the knock on effect of all this could be less cars on the road. Then we can watch the mighty public transport system take/cope err fall over with the extra strain. Marvellous!
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So Daniel Wimberley wants 20mph speed limits in St Helier, St Saviour and St Clement. Well last time I checked nobody in these parishes voted for you.
Do as you please in St Mary by all means – that is your mandate (oops – too late). But extending your half baked ideas beyond the parish line is undemocratic!
You are in the states to represent the people who put you in there – this is why we have senators and deputies. I did not vote for you so why should you suggest what the speed limit should be on my street.
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haricotfou
“for 36 bs and 37 ken – motorists themselves are subsidised:
1 when you count how much money you need for the land to build then to maintain/run car parks. i would happily pay bike road tax if i get a share of the rebate on the purchase and construction cost of just 1 multi-storey
2 cars wear out roads. doubt if i can do that on a bicycle
3 cars cause environmental damage – noise, dirt, fumes – do you fancy paying your fair share to rectify climate change?”
Are you for real!
Petrol and parking costs alone pay for this.
What is you point with comment 1? We pay for parking spaces….they are not free!
comment 2….there would be no roads at all if it were left to cyclists! Road tax is hidden in petrol duty so we pay to maintain (and use)the roads…..cyclists DO NOT!
comment 3….there is enough hot air and rubbish coming out of the mouths of blinkered cyclists to do enough damage to the ozone thank you!
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Some testing comments here, thanks folks, makes most Questions in the States seem a bit mild. Just to let yous know, will reply on Thursday. Tomorrow is deadline for comments on the Island Plan, and I have spent a fair bit of time on that already so that’s where tomorrow is going!
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#37 “They should, maybe introduce a nominal tax for registration of cycles. £100 per year should be affordable by most”
Well, that should kill the cycling trade stone dead!
Don’t forget that oodles of bikes are bought with the good intention of being used on some perfect day in the future. In reality their tyres go flat and the chrome gets pitted and rusty from being kept in a damp outhouse.
Would these cyclists buy on impulse if there was a £100 charge on top?
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I remember when they made the island lanes 15 mph and every one I spoke too all agreed that they felt like me that such a ridiculous low speed was more dangerous, because we had to keep watching our speedometers, just in case one of the honories jumped out at you with his speed gun and clocked you for speeding. The result of this was a lot of swerving, as you tried to watch your speed.
I hope he doesnt get his way, cos we all know what a lazy bunch they are in the states, and how this is a chance for them to make easy money out of the poor beggars, with their speed guns. In the end people will stop using town for their shopping and this could have a detrimental effect on businesses.
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Jersey Liz#50
What a sorry argument against speed limits.
Any one who cant drive a straight line and be aware of their surroundings at 20 MPH should surrender their licence, they are a danger to other road users.
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#40 PJG “No matter what is done children will continue to cross at such places” Why? I never did, I valued my life. But then I had parents that actually loved me and so taught me about crossing the road. We were also taught about it at school. Put the emphasis back on educating people about crossing the road properly, that (and licence removal for negligent drivers) is the ONLY way to ensure pedestrian safety.
I drove down past the Post Office last night and could have hit an older couple who walked out in FRONT of the bus they had just disembarked, of course I didn’t hit them because I was paying attention, but should they be punished for their idiocy? Yes. Who would have been blamed for hitting them though? Me, even though I was only doing about 15mph! Hardly right.
What Mr Wimberley and all the 20mph fanatics completely fail to see is that the people who speed just now will continue to do so, they also suddenly seem to forget about our environmental concerns! The people that drive drunk or under the influence of drugs just now will continue to do so. They drive at the speed they want to drive and that speed won’t change, even if the speed limit does. And so the problem will continue until they bring in proper punishment for dangerous drivers. Why are they so averse to removing licences? Someone needs to explain that one to me because I really don’t get it.
#50 I agree with Jersey Liz that speed watching is dangerous, it really is, driving by ‘feel’ at a safe speed for the conditions and surroundings is the preferred option if you want safety on the roads.
#43 I completely agree with your comments on halting evolution. Idiots now rule because we have molly-coddled them into not needing to learn. We are engineering a society that takes less and less responsibility for itself while wanting to cut teenage pregnancies, domestic abuse, drunken violence etc. The two just don’t match, the only way to cut these societal issues is to make people take responsibility for their own actions. If we can’t even expect people to look out for their own life when crossing the road then how can we expect them to have the brains to do anything?
Also, has anyone considered variable signs? They’re a much better idea. 20mph during the day (you can’t do that speed in most built up areas during the day anyway), 30mph at night. That way only drunks and idiots risk getting hit, and there are plenty of others to take their place.
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Leah Holmes #52
Cast your mind back to when you were a youngster.
Did you never walk to school daydreaming about that hunky teenager from the boys school, were you always alert to traffic at 360 degrees around you. If you were I reckon you were a one off
You may have been the perfect child but does a lesser one deserve the death sentence for a moments inattention to what mummy said about crossing the road.
Does a drunk deserve to die even if its his first time out drinking.
Are you advocating euthanasia for any over 50s who have a senior moment?
Have you never heard of defensive driving, and wondered why its taught.
As for you agreeing with Jersey Liz please see my previous comment on useless drivers.
As for your post office episode
“Who would have been blamed for hitting them though? Me, even though I was only doing about 15mph! Hardly right”
please explain how you arrive at this erroneous conclusion. Had you been doing 30 as is legal in this street, what have you done wrong.
Surely you agree it was only your lack of speed that saved the day. The couple would have been “blamed “not the driver.
Please explain how if “driving by ‘feel’” instead of speed limits is advocated by law, how a driver who is driving at 100 MPH on green lane could be prosecuted. a boy racer would only have to say “it felt right to me”.
St Helier is full of traps for the unwary motorist and pedestrian, an enforced 20 mph would reduce accidents and even you must agree there will be more chance of a pedestrian surviving a 20MPH one than a 30MPH one.
Now we look at enforcing this lower limit.
Basically only a few loonies drive at above 30MPH in town, they are few and far between to try and catch (over and above present controls) these would be exorbitant in prosecutions V police manpower. The most prevalent danger is the motorist who thinks because town has an all over 30MPH limit its safe to drive at that speed on any occasion. A few well placed speed checks would soon educate them to a safer 20.
How much time would be lost by a motorist driving through town at 20 max instead of the occasional 30, Maybe a few minutes, certainly
NOT THE LIFETIME A DAYDREAMING CHILD MIGHT LOSE.
gain for Pain a 20 MPH limit must be winner.
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Dpty W, could you please concentrate on real issues affecting the island instead of your own personal two-wheeled hobby horse.
Nobody calls for 20mph limits except you and a perhaps a small number of vociferous whingers.
We’re lucky if we can do 5mph around town these days anyway, thanks to all the zebra crossings causing gridlock.
Please research a bit more on speed limit legislation and the 85th percentile rule, as you’re not supposed to bring in lower limits that would make more than 15% of motorists transgressors.
Also, the slower traffic is forced to go, the less spread out it becomes, so you end up with a constant stream of traffic and it’s even harder to cross the road – defeating the object entirely.
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When I was a kid, we were taught how to cross the road safely, wheras now, the message to children is that it is OK to be hit by a car, as long as it is only travelling at 20 m.p.h.
The cars of the 1960′s invariably had sharp chrome trim, bonnet mascots etc, and you really did not want to be hit by these vehicles, even if they were only doing 5 m.p.h. Whereas now, modern cars are actually designed to be pedestrian freindly with rounded edges and deformable bonnets etc.
The message to youngsters is therefore very confusing, when they should be taught that they should avoid being hit by a car in the first place!
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whoever voted for Deputy Wimberley? Go get a job (if anyone would employ you)
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Deputy Wimberley thank you for standing up and being heard on this important issue. Something I have been quietly campaining for, for many years.
Ever since my little pet, wee Bob, my beloved little Jack Russel was mown down by a maniac speeding driver in St. Aubin, I have been campaigning for a reduction in the speed limit, in his memory.
This is one step closer to a 20mph Island wide speed limit, which I shall be writing to you again soon.
This is justice for the elderly, the children, the small pets, and the disabled of Jersey. For a greener and healthier Island, and for a safer and slower paced Island, and I applaud this proposistion. Go Go Wimberley!
As for all the commenters deploring this, shame on you. I believe you are losing the fight.
Rose x
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47 bs deluxe – well, bs does rather seem an appropriate label.
if you seriously think that petrol tax and parking charges would pay to buy build and maintain the roads and car parks, you are living in a separate reality
you also seem to think that you have an innate right to burn fossil fuels – well, did you hear – since the dinosaurs died, they arent making any more.
and 44 tree hugger – you are absolutely right in your guess that i dont pay fuel tax or parking fees. thats because i DON’T OWN A CAR and never wish to. i bike to work, and take my children to school in a trailer.
however, you are as misled as bs if you think that motorists pay for all the damage they cause. i say it again, as i think you missed it
- burning petrol = climate change. when will you agree to pay to fix that?
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The perceived right to drive at speed has certainly gone to some people’s heads.
However, there is no need to be downright obnoxious to Mr. Wimberley and Mrs. Bead because they don’t share your reckless outlook.
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We all know that driving at 20 mph might reduce risks.
So would driving at 10 mph. Or 5mph. So would pedestrians wearing a suit of armour. So would everyone wearing a crash helmet in cars with “three point” roll cage. So would banning stairs in houses.
The question is, where will all this limp wristed nonsense end?
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Thank you for keeping up with the posts Mr Wimberly.
I have to ask on all the people of Jerseys behalf, can you please find out why on such a small island with high taxes for road users of all ages, why the roads are in such a bad state.
1, St johns main road is in a terrible state, The camber of the road has sunk from betty may fasions all the way past the old B&Q site. This road was closed for a long time in 2008, we were told the road was being not only relaid but sorted out once and for all.
2, Commercial buildings, The road has collapsed in many place and is causing a hazard to all who use it.
3, Airport road is full of holes, on saturday i got the shock of my life when my car hit a hole that was bigger than my tire.
there are many more to mention on the page.
I believe there is something wrong when we have so many road layers and the roads fall apart in just over a year. How can we be critisized by DVS over our vehicles or have money taken off us for speeding, roads are just as important for road safety.
This doesn’t happen in France or in England as they have a 5 to 10 year resurfacing turnover.
We need to get this sorted before we look at speed limits. If the roads were done properly once and for all it would make a better enviromental impact on us all, Less road closures, less waste, less polution from burning tar all the time. From what i have seen and been told and read not one company can do a good job and i think the substandard laying is keeping a lot of these companies in jobs as they know there is a quick turnover on resurfacing. Keeping taxes high and stress at a max
Just a thought!
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Cycle helmets would increase road safety.
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Deputy Wimberley: the little girl in the advert I think was an actor and the comment “if you hit me at 30 I have a 80% chance I will survive,” was just a voice over. You could equally state that cars being driven at sensible speeds never cause any deaths to pedestrians acting equally as sensibly. Yet it is the sensible driver most of these silly speed limits criminalize. We can’t enforce a 40mph speed limit. Imagine how much more dangerous our roads would be when 98% of motorist drive at 20 with just a few with a few weaving in and ort at 80 plus.
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58 haricotfou. Given your views on transport I am not sure you are qualified to comment on speed limits.
AS far as fossil fuels are concerned viable alternatives are being reserached and when they become available I will use them. Until them I will use what is available especially when there is more than enough left to keep us supplied for the foreseeable future
Unless you dress in hemp etc and live in a non plastic non electric world you will leave a carbon footprint. get real.
In any case a lot of the evidence used to demonstrate global warming has been shown to be exagerated or fabricated so who do you beleive!
So how can I pay for something which nobody really seems certain about.
Hiding in the past is not going to help
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treehugger..
stop being as lazy and complacent as the herd.
alternatives are there if you want them. think pedals. bus. walking. scooter. electric car. its all there if you can be bothered.
as for the recent climate-gate scandal- this has been an unfortunate aberration. go look at a glacier, or ask the citizens of the maldives, or any other low lying islands to see if sea-level rise is real or imagined. or a polar bear drowned for lack of solid ice.
as for 20mph speed limits (admittedly the focus of this thread) there is no doubt that the impact on soft-bodied victims is reduced at lower speeds. there is no evidence that traffic will be any different. i also concede that its a relatively redundant measure, given that traffic in congested areas rarely if ever makes +20mph.
but the fact remains- the only way to make the environment safer and better for everyone is..
fewer cars on the road.
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#58 You having children has caused much more damage to the environment than any of us could ever do driving a car… that is fact! So look closer to home if you want to apportion blame for climate change. Cars are not even a blip on the climate change list of cause compared to breeding.
#53 Funnily enough NO, I was well aware that a car could kill me! Not exactly rocket science to realise that I don’t want to mess with cars. My nieces don’t do it, I walked to school with a large group of friends, none of them did it either. We weren’t perfect, we just valued our lives.
As for drunks, if they are THAT drunk they get what they deserve. It is completely wrong that some innocent driver, driving within the speed limit can have their life ruined by some drunk idiot not paying attention. It is time to start targeting pedestrians for the damage they do to others by causing accidents. As for the story of what happened to me the other day, the drivers are always blamed by some. Doesn’t matter that I was driving more than 10mph below the speed limit at the time, some people (see Mrs Bead) will always blame the driver.
20mph damages the environment more and WON’T be enforced so those that currently drive at 40, 50, 60 will continue to do so.
I am a very good and very experienced driver, however (and this is backed up by the AA and RAC) driving at 15mph in conditions and surroundings that can easily take a higher speed feels wrong, you actually feel like your car is grinding to a halt, and naturally you tend to speed up, that is why you end up watching your speedo and that is when it gets dangerous. It is especially difficult in an automatic. It is fine in conditions that warrant it because how the speed feels is usually dependent on the conditions.
Anyway, back to the environment, most accidents are caused by people who should have had their licences removed well before now (or by pedestrians, animals not on leads etc), why should the environment that we claim to care about so much suffer a lot more because the States have failed in their duty to protect us from reckless drivers.
If you honestly believe there won’t continue to be reckless drivers and that they will continue to hit pedestrians at 40+ miles per hour, be my guest, but that is incredibly naive of you. Me, my friends, my partner, his family, their friends, my colleagues, WE are not hitting anyone with our cars, never have and unless an idiot pedestrian or attempted suicide comes our way, never will! Those that do will continue to do so.
I am against bad and reckless drivers, totally against them, just as I am against bad and reckless pedestrians and animals not on leads when near roads. Don’t punish everyone for the mistakes of a few without even trying to punish and change the actions of those few first, it’s pathetic, it’s defeatist and it shows that the Government is failing in its duty towards us.
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For goodness sake. This Deputy is another one of the publicity hungry group of politicians who just pursue their own agendas and thrive on the media coverage. Why even think about lodging this ridiculous proposal now when there will shortly be something coming forward from the group of politicians who were charged with reviewing Island speed limits and who actually undertook public consultation. The only reason can be because he thinks the “official” proposals won’t be in line with what he wants personally (even if he had the backing of the 250 or so people who voted for him and as most of my family live in St Mary, he can take it from me that he lost most of that support a long time ago) and so therefore his only hope is to circumvent democracy and try to do his own thing. Politicians are supposed to work in the best interests of the Island, not just pursue their own pet projects without any real mandate.
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48 Daniel Wimberley
“Just to let yous know, will reply on Thursday”
only a day late thus far….but still waiting for your pearls of wisdom!!
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#67
“even if he had the backing of the 250 or so people who voted for him and as most of my family live in St Mary, he can take it from me that he lost most of that support a long time ago”
So who are the good people of St Mary going to pick next time, Milo?
Maybe they could elect someone who is mad keen on having car rallies down the green lanes or motorbike scrambling from Grève de Lecq to the Devil’s Hole every Sunday?
Somehow I think that Daniel Wimberly has the island at heart and isn’t simply in the States to expand his cycle touring enterprise.
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A bit long, but thanks for these comments
MAKING LAWS TO LIMIT RISK
#33 Leah writes: “‘What speed does what harm’ to a pedestrian is in many ways irrelevant, ANY speed could kill given the right variables” Leah, why so irrational on this issue? Of course it is not irrelevant. Legislators make laws like this on the balance of probabilities, on accurate assessments of risk. Are you seriously suggesting we base the laws of Jersey on exceptional cases rather than “most cases”? I know we just have passed that Jersey should have a law on cycle helmets on exactly the opposite basis, that does not make it the right thing to do.
#60.Captain Peacock is sort of right on the money. The question is: what risks are we going to do something about, and what ones are we going to leave? And if we do decide to tackle a risk, than we need to know that the chosen measure is effective.
By imposing cycle helmets, the States decided to tackle what we know from UK data to be a very small risk. There was no local evidence of the degree of risk at all. The official government report stated that no firm conclusions can be drawn at present about whether helmets actually work or not.
In deciding to go for helmet laws, they created a far greater risk – of additional disease from increased inactivity. It is known that cycling gives great health benefits. It is also known that helmet compulsion reduces the number of people cycling. So the States voted for increased health costs. And this additional risk has been quantified and it is far greater than the risk which helmets might, and I stress might, avoid. Therefore it was the wrong decision.
However the evidence in this case is very different. 20 mph zones are known to reduce accidents and injuries. KSI (Killed and |serious Injuries) go down by around 40%. Our 31 KSI per year in Jersey is 31 too many. So are we going to sit back and do nothing?
ACCIDENTS HAPPEN. DO THEY, AND IF SO, WHY?
#38.Mulvie Le Phew
“I simply cannot imagine how it is possible to get run over when crossing the road” See my post 30 paragraph 7. Try imagining a bad driver. Or a moment of inattention. Accidents happen. Leah 52 and 66 with her perfect family who have never and will never hit anybody, seems to think we can wish this away.
#66 Leah Holmes “the States have failed in their duty to protect us from reckless drivers.” This reminds me of the finding about rogue fishermen, without licenses, who were selling substantial amounts of fish. The panel looking at this were told that “we know who they are” This sounds a bit similar. I shall bear in mind this notion that a very few drivers are causing all the accidents, and somehow not losing their licenses. I think I will look at age too and nationality. In fact look for patterns. Apparently analysis of causes does not happen at present, will soon see!
THE STATISTICS
#39 Quite agree. I will look at the stats and challenge why we have 400 injury accidents a year. Yes I suspect our injury rates are lower and the severity also. The question remains – are you happy with 400 injuries, of which 31 are serious at a cost to society of £20 million? And, yes, I did challenge TTS on that figure.
ENFORCEMENT
“Stop penalising all drivers unless you actually have the guts to remove licences from the ones that give the rest of us a bad name.” Entirely agree that far better enforcement is needed, this is the one area where the official speed review got it right, with a points system and a tougher approach.
WHAT ABOUT PERSONAL RESPONSIBUILITY?
Leah #52 wrote about personal responsibility. Quite right, and if it is eroded then it does damage. Children should learn by being given supervised freedom, whether it is climbing trees or riding their bike. The right way to do things is modeled by the parents or an intelligent trainer. In the end they are competent enough to continue the learning from experience on their own.
But how can they be encouraged to learn responsibility and skill if the streets are full of morons, drunks and psychopaths as described in postings here. Oh, I forgot: morons, drunks and psychopaths behind the wheels of cars.
You see, the morons, drunks and psychopaths who are walking and cycling mostly do not kill or damage others as a result of their choice of transport. Whereas the ones who are driving can and do. And that is why there has to be a legislative framework.
The 40mph limit has made a massive difference to Jersey, the 20mph zones are a further step in the direction of better more peaceful and safer street spaces
MOTORISTS – ARE THEY SUBSIDISED?
#36.and #47 BS Deluxe and #44.tree hugger
Subsidised motorists: accidents £20 million per annum (TTS estimate); congestion: £6 million per annum, (TTS estimate); car parking, cheaper than most places, covers the cost of providing the car parks, but no payment is made for the value of the land itself; a proportion of health costs due to air pollution and inactivity; road maintenance costs 3 1/4 million 2010;
Versus Income from fuel duty 2010: under £21 million. Plus GST on car sales. Not enough I fear. Motorists are subsidised. How else can you explain what happens in Jersey?
And thanks to haricotfou #42 for his/her faster version of the same thing.
THE BUSSES
Busses – yes, if the contract made sense, and if real effort was made to increase usage, then the required subsidy would drop. I believe that huge savings are possible. I am on scrutiny working on this.
#45.Someone lots of challenging points, thanks. That is why I am taking this proposal round for discussions. And I think you will be pleasantly surprised at the changes planned for the busses.
STATE OF THE ROADS
#61.Helen back
Why the roads are in a dreadful state?
a) because we have not spent enough over the years on road maintenance, just as we have done on child protection, with the results we read about in the paper recently, and the Hospital, ditto; our housing is £75 million behind on maintenance, our sewerage system is £150 million short, etc. This is all because of historic refusal of past governments of Jersey to raise the necessary funds to pay for a modern state. It is a shortsighted and unsustainable policy.
And b) it could be that TTS and their contractors are incapable of fixing roads. I say could be as I am no expert in this area.
And c) because the massive lorries which trundle along our roads and especially along the main roads you mention do far far more damage than they pay for. I drove my mum to Corbiere today – road was fine. When was the last 40 tonner delivery to the lighthouse?
How much to remedy the backlog on all the roads? You are looking at another massive sum due to past neglect.
CONGESTION
“Congestion is partially caused by speed limits, it may help you to understand this if you find a mathematician . . .” Have just checked – this is an incredibly complex area.
But, in simple terms, isn’t congestion when we are waiting at a traffic light, or when we are crawling through Beaumont? In neither case is a speed limit of any relevance.
An example: higher speeds demand greater distance between vehicles so they do not automatically lead to greater flows.
BITS OF NONSENSE
#55.Warren J “ . . .the message to children is that it is OK to be hit by a car” Please show me the road safety leaflet with this statement in. Oh, there isn’t one. Why did you write this sentence then?
#63.Sanity “We can’t enforce a 40mph speed limit.” This too is clearly nonsense. Compliance to the 40 is very high. I was pondering on this fact only today. Virtually all drivers in Jersey stick to the 40. There are various reasons for this. One of them is that it is enforced. As a glance at the Magistrate’s Court Reports will prove
AND FINALLY
“Where’s the democracy in giving pedestrians all the rights?” get over it Matt. Civilised streets are common all over Europe. For example, Goettingen has a pedestrian zone about a mile across, no problems at all, so stress free to walk around, shop, chat, go to work . . .and not have to worry about being run over.
This stuff is COMMON elsewhere. It will cut injuries. It will improve the feel and comfort and safety of our streets for all users. What is the problem?
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leah holmes- so breeders are to blame for climate change? i think you need to do some more research.
i think you will find its the per capita energy usage that counts, not the overral number of people on the planet. and are you arguing against the continuation of the human race?
so no, humans per se do not cause climate change, its the irresponsible over-consumption of resources by those – mainly in the developoed world – that achieve this.
so do yourself a favour. walk a bit more or catch a bus.
and bear in mind this – todays children will grow up more environmentally aware than you could ever hope to manage, and when they become doctors, carers etc, they will be here to wipe up your dribble and feed you your medicine.
ps more 20mph speed limits will save you from those ‘drunk idiots’ that apparently deserve to die beneath your wheels when your reaction times degenerate along with your eyesight
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Haricotfou
I think it is you that has the problem not the rest of us so wound up with your green propoganda that the planet has to be saved at the exclusion of all else. Given the current defrocking of a great deal of this nonsence you could be struggling for a cause when the Maldives are still there 30 years hense and polar bears are still arround and the glaciers rebulid as we go through another normal climate swing.
In the mean time you enjoy your push bike and leave me to enjoy my car
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I notice you had no reply to my #54, DW
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treehugger…
‘green propoganda’?! (sic) – you mean you don’t think that the ice caps are melting? you don’t think burning petrol contributes to this phenomenon?
this is a free country, and you can drive your car down blissful ignorance boulevard, right up to the point where theres no petrol left.
if you’re right, and the maldives are still here in 30 years, i will be delighted, and i will fully recant my beliefs. i’ll be fitter than you while i am at it.
however, how do you fancy looking the (ex)residents of maldives in the eye should you have it wrong?
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Haricotfou
1) The Glaciers are melting but how fast and the link between this and the rise in carbon content in the atmosphere is the subject of much debate.
2) A replacement for petrol will be found before it runs out in the next 30 or so years.
3) The Maldives were fine last time I was there.
4) Not sure how you can make assumptions about my fitness but at least I choose to take my exercise in a way which is less disruptive to the general flow of traffic and I stay within the law which is more than can be said for most of the push bike ridedrs I see these days!
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How about cyclists that go over 20mph? would they be prosecuted? In fact how about those that go up one way streets in the opposite direction as they believe cyclists shouldn’t adhere to the highway code? Or those that cycle on the pavements in town?
As a limit of 20mph wouldn’t affect congestion as it is the amount of cars on the road that causes gridlock (according to the good Deputy) how about 2 cars max per household? That would be a plus for the environment rather than spending an extra 5 minutes in a car to adhere to these stupid 20mph zones. How about prosecuting stupid drunken idiots for walking in the road (or sane Jay walkers for that matter?) On my motorbike i came across a drunken idiot who fell asleep on a zebra crossing!
Rosemary bead – why was your pet not on a lead? Why should I suffer a ridiculous speed limit because your dog ran out in the middle of the road… incidentally if it ran out in front of a motorcyclist would you have given a damn if that motorcyclist would have died or ended up crippled as swerving out of the way for an unexpected visitor to the road (no matter what speed you are doing) is bound to have repurcussions.
Incidentally are you going to reduce fuel costs as the cars are much more efficient at 30mph than they are at 20…?
Just a few things to think about…
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Deputy Wimberly #30
Congestion IS caused by variable speed limits. You only have to look at the way a motorway grinds to a halt when temporary speed limits are put into place and you get the accordion effect. The same will apply on busy roads when drivers slow from 40 or 30mph to 20mph and back up again.
Also can you confirm whether the number of accidents and fatalities is increasing or decreasing? I think it’s the latter.
Speed does not kill Deputy, humans do whether it be the fault of the driver or pedestrian. More time should be spent educating drivers/pedestrians about alertness and road awareness. Who is more likely to respond to a hazard in time:- The driver doing 50mph 100% focused on their driving, or the driver doing 30mph screaming at the kids in the back whilst adjusting the stereo volume?
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Daniel Wimberley
I am very disappointed in your response. I was hoping for some pearkls of wisdom which may sway me towards your argument. Alas, no…..in fact I am even firmer in the belief you are talking nonsense!
““We can’t enforce a 40mph speed limit.” This too is clearly nonsense. Compliance to the 40 is very high. I was pondering on this fact only today. Virtually all drivers in Jersey stick to the 40 There are various reasons for this. One of them is that it is enforced. As a glance at the Magistrate’s Court Reports will prove”.
Your statements are nonsense. As a driver myself I often see youngters or foreign-plated cars speeding. I also see reckless driving by farm vehicles, namely tractors, quite regularly. I never see any traffic police on the roads so how on earth can you say the limit is enforced. Apart from the odd spot check every now and again there is no possible way these offenders can even be noticed let alone punished!
When was the last time you took a drive around Jersey in peak traffic? Or even on quieter roads??
Regarding your motorist subsidies “Subsidised motorists: accidents £20 million per annum (TTS estimate); congestion: £6 million per annum, (TTS estimate); car parking, cheaper than most places, covers the cost of providing the car parks, but no payment is made for the value of the land itself; a proportion of health costs due to air pollution and inactivity; road maintenance costs 3 1/4 million 2010;”
Accidents are surely paid for by insurance otherwise why on earth do we need to pay extra for the privilege? Perhaps you should charge these “accident subsidy” costs to the offenders instead of spinning it as a subsidy to the average motorist!
Are these TTS estimates of the actual collateral damage caused by accidents or the accummulation of overinflated charges by public services for dealing with the aftermath?
How are we being subsidised for congestion? In my opinion, the poor one way systems, parnets driving kids to school and constant roadworks are the main cause of congestion not volume of ordinary traffic. Just look at the roads now…..they are empty in comparison to a school day!
Should we be charging those who dig up the roads all the time? Maybe then the powers that be would think a lot more about digging up the same roads over and over again and complete what they need to all at the same time!
Car parks…we pay for the service (+GST) for a space to park. Why should we pay for the value of the land to….surely the people we are paying parking (rents) to already own the land??!!
When I go to buy a sandwich in town I am not paying for the value of the land on top of my actual food item….or am I????
Using your figures, you take £21 million off the motorist, but only £3 1/4 million is used for road maintenance…..in other words the states are skimming £17 3/4 million off the motorist.
If you bring in your lower speed limit you may drive too many people off the roads….then how will you make up this £17 3/4 million deficit??
You are clutching at straws when you mention air pollution and inactivity as an excuse.
I would argue that Bellozane or the airport may be the main cause of any air pollution in Jersey ahead of traffic.
You say “You see, the morons, drunks and psychopaths who are walking and cycling mostly do not kill or damage others as a result of their choice of transport. Whereas the ones who are driving can and do.”
Again where are your hard facts and figures?
Do you live in the real world? You see, the morons, drunks and psychopaths who are walking and cycling recklessly CAN & DO cause fatalities. Usually because some poor innocent driver has had to swerve to avoid them!
You are totally biased and blinkered and for that reason you have no argument!
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Well said BS deluxe , spot on!
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treehugger & bs..
theres none so blind as will not see.
you add nothing to the argument, and your position seems to be ‘i’ll do as i please and see how it all turns out’
1. glaciers are melting. despite all the recent shenanigans, you won’t find a reputable scientist who disputes that mankind’s industrialisation has had a noticeable impact. and the russians – and all nations with a coastline in the arctic circle – are jockeying for position over territorial rights.
2. well lucky you. that means you don’t have to do anything but make sure you use up your share?
3. are you trying to really make a point here?
4. was a general point – cycling is better for you (and everybody else) than driving.
thankfully the new generation are taking responsibility for cleaning up after you.
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Haricotfou
I agree there are none so blind…including yourself.
Like most I do my share for the enviroment but I am not a zealot nor do I take matters to an extreme. I do not use my car for short journeys I can walk, I turn off lights and turn down heating,recycle etc. All countries have a carbon reduction target which can be reached through sensible reductions in usage. This does not mean we all have to take to the road on push bikes or inflict ridiculous speed limits on the motoring public to support a crusade againts cars.
No body will need to clean up after me.
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Haricotfou
Apart from cycling here and there instead of driving please enlighten us on all the planet saving acts you participate in daily.
My guess is you are just blowing a lot of hot air…..which incidentally is contributing to global warming. So unless you have any reasonable comment to make do us all a favour and go for a nice healthy walk or something!
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ok treehugger & bs, you are obviously stuck in the past.
i don’t crusade for any of the nasty things that would upset you, like speed limits. but it is pretty certain that characters such as you will only be forced to change their ways when the oil price goes stratospheric again, as it will.
i don’t use a car; i don’t buy exotic things that need air-freighting, i do use low wattage light bulbs etc – all of these things are modest and reasonable.
i consider myself a part of the solution – you are part of the problem.
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haricot
You talk nonsense.
20 mph limits would be draconian!
Perhaps you would be better off campaigning for electric cars instead of reducing the speed limit if you are that concerned about pollution and petrol prices!
I don’t care what fuel I use (as long as it is affordable)….I care about reaching a destination in good time!
You may have too much time on your hands but a lot of modern society are kept very busy….it sounds to me like you are the one stuck in the past!
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