1

camelia

I don’t think that Dick will be replying anytime soon!Look under his original letter and see 37 comments now.

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3

PJG

thorpey #2
I don’t think people “hate” firemen.
Its just at the moment a lot of us think they are being selfish and unhelpful in getting the community back on its feet after a crippling depression.

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5

Martin

Get a grip, no one is saying that they hate Fireman, but lets come out of this bubble you live in and look at the bigger picture.

People are losing their jobs, FACT!!!

Middle earners as getting hit enough at the moment, so don’t want taxes going up anymore FACT !!!

Fireman in Jersey are one of the best paid in Europe, now yes Jersey is expensive place to live and they will say thats why, but come on, greed is what this is realy about.

I for one don’t back everything the states come out with, but on thei they have my 100% backing.

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7

Adrian

PJG who cause this depression? Why should my security, quality of life and standard of living be threatened because of incompetence in a different sector? I believe it was the finance sector wasn’t it, that caused these problems?

Martin and others when prices of everything over here come down to a more realistic level then I am prepared to take less pay. I am not made of money and I can’t afford more GST and other taxes just so that big business isn’t upset. Everyone needs to start paying their fair share.

IMHO it is bad to be doing this to the this group of workers. It is very lucky for Jersey that they have such dedicated people in the fire service, or else they could well be getting two fingers in response, and I wouldn’t blame them if they wanted to either.

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9

PLOD

The Hypocrits#8
“After all, why pay more when you can let the States employees bear the burden all on their own?”
You must live on another planet. Give me a call when you return from Uranus.

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11

Disheartened

PLG (10) – “I thought it was the idiots who borrowed money beyond their means to maintain repayments” – what happened to the lenders checking that the borrowers had the means to maintain repayments before lending in the first place?! In fact I remember a bank offering to lend me more than I wanted to borrow (and I’d already worked out what I could afford) when I was looking to take out a mortgage. Only that I’m fairly good with numbers that I realised I was being offered more than I could afford to repay – therefore can’t really blame others for ending up borrowing more than they could afford. Stop trying to shift blame for the credit crunch off of the finance profession!

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13

Pip Clement

‘I thought it was the idiots who borrowed money beyond their means to maintain repayments.’

Plenty of finance folk over here who are little more than indentured labourers.
Every month the salary flows in to their bank account and then most of it flows back to the bank in their mortgage, loans, etc.

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15

Martin

Hypocrits.

I can tell your from Jersey with a comment like that, public sector, is paid very well, go and live in the UK, for a while, then you will see what they get paid.

What a idiot

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17

PLOD

Wagtail#12
If you remove your head from the place you suggest mine is and after cleaning your glasses, reread my post, which is a reply to The Hypocrits#8 you will see that what you are saying, is exactly what I am saying, DOH
No apology required,

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19

Hypocrits

@ Martin #15

It’s “you’re from Jersey”, not “your from Jersey” and “an idiot, not “a idiot”.
How ironic.

For your information, I have worked in the UK.

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21

Adrian

PJG the reason sub prime was introduced was for some to make money on it. The fact that this “doomed to failure” scheme was allowed by the financial authorities just show how incompetent they are IMHO.

It is crippling the world economy. Now you mightn’t think this is much of an issue but I do. To blame people who might have trouble even signing their own name is plain daft. Those who thought up this scheme must have realised that it was likely to fail as far as I am concerned.

However it appears some are unable to see the link between implimenting a bad scheme and the resultant fire storm it caused.

In my opinion this disaster was caused by the:-
1. financial institutions who thought them up.
2. financial regulators who failed in their duty of care to the customer and other customers by not barring these products before they saw the light of day IMHO.
3. banking set up that has allowed virtual economic collapse.
4. ability to chop and dice bad debt and sell it on for profit leaving others to foot the bill.
5. those who bought these products.

I would award 95% of the responsibility to 1,2,3,4 and 5% to the end user. If any of 1,2,3,4 had been done differently the end result may well have been on the mild side or none existant IMHO.

This is why I hold the financial sector responsible for this shambles, which is what it is IMHO. So sorry but this flavour of suits are not my favourite flavour at present. You could well find that they aren’t exactly flavour of the year for the vast majority of hard working individuals who have been sucked into this whirlpool.

PJG I also must say I find your supermarket comparision is a bit daft. Since when has someone being irresponsible in a supermarket involved calling in the governments worldwide to sort it out, and since when has an overspend in a supermarket caused others to lose their jobs, homes etc and since when has an overspend in a supermarket caused your friends to bail you out?

PJG “The financiers may have some responsibility”

They have more than “some” and much much more than those poor individuals who were sold a non existant dream by others eager to make a profit IMHO.

So to summarise if you work in 1,2,3,or 4 you are working in a system that supported this approach either directly or indirectly to making a profit IMHO. What do you say now?

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23

Martin

Hypocrits.

Thank you for correcting my spelling, now

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25

donald pond

“Would Mr Shenton be prepared to give his life for a stranger each time the phone rings, no questions asked? Would Mr Shenton be prepared to go through months of training initially and continually to keep his physical condition and knowledge base updated…”

Hold on – you can only give your life once. And when was the last time a fireman in Jersey died anyway? Being a fisherman is much more dangerous.

And most of us have jobs that need initial training and then CPD. Its par for the course these days.

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27

Adrian

donald good to hear from you again I was beginning to wonder whether you were away on holiday. Maybe you agree with my comments?

As per fishermen why aren’t they being paid more if they are doing such a dangerous job?

Safety1st “..regardless of what brought things down, now we must all endure it.”

Would you bail out your nextdoor neighbour because he had been a numpty and couldn’t affort his mortgage?

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29

donald pond

“As per fishermen why aren’t they being paid more if they are doing such a dangerous job?”

Adrian,
you really do ask odd questions. People get paid according to supply and demand. There is little physical risk to being a premiership footballer, hollywood actor, hot-shot lawyer of brain surgeon. Such jobs are well paid because not many people can do them. If we were to pay fishermen more than Premiership Footballers the price of fish would have to be at least £100 a pound.

Now, is there a shortage of firemen in Jersey? Is there a shortage of people wanting to be firemen? If the answer to both questions is no, then firemen are not being underpaid. Simple as that.

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31

thorpey

donald, shortage of firemen, definately yes.Through massive cutbacks, we’ve lost personnel over a number of years, at the moment it’s being called ‘managed vacancies’ another ridiculous play on words. This isn’t only in the wholetime members but also our part time crews as well, who we rely on heavily at protracted incidents. Years ago we had a crew that could respond as a third appliance to back us up at a house fire, standard procedure, but that has long gone. Manpower wise, which is critical to us achieving our tasking and basic safety, we now feel is heavily compromised. So when people pipe up on here without knowing proper facts, which aren’t always accurately portrayed in the media, it does get peoples backs up.
As for shortage of people applying,no there isn’t,but not everyone makes the grade at selection and there can be problems when recruiting. Hope this answers some of your questions, regards, thorpey.

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33

Miss Anne Thrope

Donald Pond bang on my friend, waste of time though as these people will never get it. Firemen are well paid for the job they have chosen to do. As for danger, many jobs are dangerous though few take steps to minimise this reisk as comprehensively as the fire service. My late husband died whilst carrying out the job he loved, he fell from a 3rd storey window, he was a burglar but that’s not his fault, poor chap was dyslexic and thought he was applying for a job as a bugler.

I wonder how often do firemen have to attend a fire, once a week, less? I work in the telephony dept of a bank and I answer the phone non stop throughout the day. As for cutbacks, we’ve lost half our department but are expected to maintain the same level of service. We didn’t get a pay rise last year and won’t this, unlike the moaners in the public sector we know to keep our gobs shut and be grateful we have a job. Our annual bonus was withdrawn last year, no notice no explanation just ” you will no longer be eligible for a performance related bonus”

Those of us outside the bubble of states protection know this reality, for some reason even when explained those within do not.

Working as a fireman is a good way for a person of average intelligence to earn pay and benefits above what would otherwise be achieveable. It requires committment and the ability to watch TV for extended periods of time, you must also know how to turn on a tap. If you want to apply just call, but not during the evening as they are busy ( 19.00 Eastenders, 19.30 Corrie, 20.00 The Bill )

And please don’t tell me I’ll regret my words when my house burns down. First of all I don’t plan to burn it down and second if I do, those people paid to attend will do so ( providing it’s not during prime time TV )

Thorpey I appreciate you taking time away from the telly to respond.

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35

Adrian

donald “There is little physical risk to being a premiership footballer,”

So how come they keep getting injured all the time then?

donald “Such jobs are well paid because not many people can do them.”

The only one in your list that would go in mine is brain surgeons the rest are two a penny as far as I am concerned, and aren’t worth what they get paid.

Why are you comparing fishermen with footballers when you were previously comparing them to firemen and this was the point I was asking you about?

I would have thought firemen will becoming into shorter and shorter supply since many of today’s generation are classified as couch patatoes and are getting progressively over weight. Fancy a 30 stone fireman getting wedged in your window when he comes to rescue you? Thats if he could get up the steps first!

Miss Anne Thrope “We didn’t get a pay rise last year and won’t this, unlike the moaners in the public sector we know to keep our gobs shut and be grateful we have a job.”

Get the violins out! You would make me cry if I was gullible. You don’t work in the sector responsible for this mess do you?

As far as I am concerned an employer is going to get away with what they can especially on the wage front, as it is part of the capitalistic way of doing things. It is called maximising profit. People should be getting their fair share and anything less than that is wrong as far as I am concerned.

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37

Leah Holmes

#10 “I thought it was the idiots who borrowed money beyond their means to maintain repayments.
Your ordinary working folk wanting more than they can earn. ”

Not at all. You go to a bank, declare all the information you have about your expenditure and someone you are told has had all the required training and is an expert in this area (which the applicant probably isn’t) will tell you what you can afford. Most people won’t question it because the same advice is being given by the same advisers to others and others are managing to keep up their repayments fine.

The fact that myself and maybe others didn’t trust the adviser and opted to take out a lower value mortgage does not put the blame on those that did trust the adviser, he/she is meant to be the expert after all. Why not trust the person who has had all the training, sat the exams etc?

The blame for this situation lies fairly and squarely at the feet of a very greedy finance industry and, to some degree, with a previous UK government.

As for ‘vocations’, it may be a surprise to some private sector workers but just because something is a ‘vocation’ doesn’t mean you shouldn’t get paid properly for it.

Also comments about supply and demand, it’s one thing to be a teacher or firefighter, it’s another entirely to be a GOOD teacher or firefighter! Certainly if supply and demand was applied to teaching then teachers would get paid a lot more because really good ones are few and far between! As for the person who said not many people can be ‘act’, have they watched films lately, how many of the Hollywood bigshots are actually good, it’s about hobnobbing, who you know, who you sleep with, and MOST importantly LUCK!

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39

God's Mentor

Let’s face it a firemans wage is a good one for people who haven’t got a lot of qualifications – simple as.

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41

donald pond

Adrian,

Even you must be able to see the absurdity of your argument: “The only one in your list that would go in mine is brain surgeons the rest are two a penny as far as I am concerned, and aren’t worth what they get paid.”

So Hollywood stars and premiership footballers are “two a penny” are they and “aren’t worth what they are paid”? They get paid vast amounts because they generate vast amounts. Millions of people see Matt Damon or George Clooney’s name on a poster and they happily pay £6 to see something on the strength of the name alone.

The same with a Lionel Messi – people will travel and pay to watch him play, will pay £40 for a replica shirt with his name on it. And as he generates millions for his employers he wants some of that back. The same, on a lower scale, with the rainmaker partners at law firms, who are the most valuable.

By and large, people get paid proportionately to the revenue they generate for their employers. It isn’t done according to “Adrian’s ideas”, it is done according to the ability to get others to part with their money.

If they were “two a penny” they wouldn’t get paid millions: they get paid millions precisely because they are rare and irreplaceable. Unlike firemen.

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43

Adrian

Miss Anne thrope “most of us were completely unaware of what was happening until it hit the fan.”

Maybe you and others should pay more attention to what is going on then? I don’t work in the sector you mention, however I knew this was going to end in tears quite a while ago, and was therefore prepared for the inevitable that has so surprised 99% of people worldwide to date.

As per finance you don’t work in sub prime then and you don’t/didn’t know what it is either.

What other areas of finance are there that you don’t know anything about? Are they all good areas and run properly? Are there any other special schemes that could end up having a similar impact to sub prime? Do you know? Do you even care?

donald I answer your comments with valid points then you side track elsewhere with your answers.

donald “Millions of people see Matt Damon or George Clooney’s name on a poster and they happily pay £6 to see something on the strength of the name alone.”

How sad. I tend to watch films because they are good I don’t just look out for Mr. X or Mr. Y. and think oh goody this film must be good and I must spend £6 to see it!

donald “And as he generates millions for his employers he wants some of that back.”

What do you mean by some? 50/50? Or 99.9/0.1? I would be expecting more like half wouldn’t you for all this work?

donald “By and large, people get paid proportionately to the revenue they generate for their employers.”

What proportion are we talking about 0.1% for the employee and 99.9% for the employer? If it is these sort of proportions then it is a parasitic relationship as far as I am concerned.

donald “they get paid millions precisely because they are rare and irreplaceable.”

Sorry but they are not as rare as you make out and they certainly aren’t irreplaceable. Those that approach this status are the likes of Pele and George Best.

It is interesting to see how much you know about football. Are all your other topics as widely researched I wonder?

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45

Borrrrrrb

No. 39 – Re:God’s Mentor
jog on with your drivvle! I’d insult you, but you’re not bright enough to notice.
A lot of Firefighters in Jersey actually have a degree. It’s typical of the narrow mindedness of people like you with your sweeping statements!
As Thorpey would say; “Get back to your colouring” – Legendary
Love you Thorpey!

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