Teachers to lead pay protest march
Tuesday 6th April 2010, 3:00PM BST.
UK Schools Secretary Ed Balls addressed the NASUWT conference at which a proposal for a Jersey rally was approved. Picture: David Jones/PA Wire
PUBLIC sector workers are to march through St Helier in the first high-profile demonstration over their ongoing pay and conditions dispute.
Hundreds of workers are expected to take part in the rally, which was called by Jersey’s biggest teaching union, the NASUWT, at its annual conference at the weekend.
Teachers will lead the march, from Howard Davis Park to the Opera House, but hundreds of other public sector workers are also likely to take part.
National and Island members of the NASUWT voted in favour of the rally after a UK teacher proposed an ‘urgency motion’ during the annual conference in Birmingham at the weekend. The union said that after the motion was proposed, all of the estimated 2,500 members who attended voted in favour of backing the Jersey rally.
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We have a right to have our Employer negotiate with us!
The States Employment Board Members did not even attend the last mediation. Ozouf states that they will not negotiate at all.
That is what this is about! Nothing Else.
It is in their hands to come back to the mediation table and talk to us. We will be there any time they want. But don’t think that this is about anything other than our contractual right to negotiate.
The States Employment board has lied to their workers for far too long and now it is time to make a stand. I, and many of my colleagues know that this is not about pay… it is time the public understood that it is not about pay, it is about not getting walked over.
Let’s make sure that the Jersey Education System gets the funding it needs to get the best graduates coming over to fill the vacancies.
Every Vacancy in a school is a non-specialist teacher teaching Jersey Students! Our Students deserve the Best from the 6th Richest Nation on the planet!!!
SO before you comment think whether or not you want the Best Teachers for your children? OR
do you just want the remnants who don’t get their first choice job in the UK ?
When conditions of service are so much better in the UK, why would you come here? Why do people use the Jersey Finance System? Because it is more beneficial to them …
Why do teachers not apply for Positions on Jersey? Because it is more beneficial to stay in the UK…
That is the choice and if the public do not support us, they do not support the principle of getting the best education system we can!
Support Teachers, Support your Children, Support the Future!
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Good for them. So maybe just to add another side to the story, perhaps the 1,300 people now registered as unemployed should arrange a similar attention seeking rally?
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This selfishness by teachers is disgusting. Everyone else are having to tighten their belts, but you lot don’t care. I hope someone has a few rotten eggs to throw on your way. Dont’ stop at the Oepra House, keep going to the ferry and take one to France where you belong!
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Fantastic, not that Ozouf and co will take any notice but at least people can see they are not alone in feeling angry about this and that other people on the island care about their services and standard of living as well as people from the UK caring about what happens to people here. Nice one teachers!
Now – how can the teacher and public sector worker hating commenters make the march sound ‘greedy and selfish’ or will it be a load of terrified ‘we’re being invaded by outsiders!’ comments….
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Comment 1 says “But don’t think that this is about anything other than our contractual right to negotiate”
JEP headline says “Teachers to lead pay protest march”
Which is the truth? I would suggest if the teachers want to prove it is about the right to negotiate and not simply pay increases that they hand back the 2% above inflation rise they have been awarded for this year and also the 2% guaranteed for next, this might elicit a more sympathetic response.
“I, and many of my colleagues know that this is not about pay… it is time the public understood that it is not about pay,”
Fine as above, give back the pay rise and prove it.
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Or, if any of the 1300 have a degree, perhaps, they could train to be teachers?
Or Nurses…. who have even worse conditions…
Or they could apply to be a public sector worker…
Or they could volunteer for a week in the classroom…
There are jobs in the private sector. A friend of mine has had 5 interviews in the last two weeks and was offered three of the positions…
All of the positions came with Bonus clauses and Private Health Insurance. Not something we are familiar with in the Public System…
Remember – Destroying our Education System will mean more unskilled workers in the future all fighting for fewer positions…
INVEST in your education and Health Systems!
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Nobody can dispute that teachers should have good pay and conditions, as they do a very important job. The problem is Jersey is in, or possibly just coming out of a deep recession and now is the time for all public sector workers to exercise restraint.
When the economy recovers it will be different, but now isn’t the time to go on strike or hold a march through the town.
I imgine most, if not all Teachers have secure jobs and a good pension at the end of their careers.This is something that many people would like to have – but fair play to the teaching profession; you have worked for your qualifications and expect due reward. Now however is not the time to be irresponsible, whilst others are losing their jobs, or taking pay cuts. Now is the time to cut you coat according to your cloth, until the good times return.
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Wow, comment three was the ‘gredy and selfish ‘ crew.
So Not Right#3 you paragon of fairness and reasonable virtue, you are actually advocating violence at a peaceful demonstration?
Not surprising though as it seems you cannot read (or spell for that matter) as, if you were able to read and form cogent analysis of a situation you would be past this ‘greedy and selfish’ mantra.
Tell me, do you favour and wear the all over shaven head style of haircut and wear large boots?
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Mulvie Le Phew…
1. We have been Awarded NOTHING for 2009.
2. We have been offered a 2% flat for 2010 (below inflation) so long as we accept redundencies within the Teaching Sector. This has not been discussed nor accepted by members because of the ongoing 2009 dispute.
3. The mediation recently had a list of conditions, many of which were low impact. The Employer sent someone with no negotiating power to tell us that they were not interested in talking to us.
4. We have tried to ensure that the public know that this is not about pay, but the JEP wants to sell NEWSPAPERS!
5. The last pay increase for teachers was awarded in June 2008 and over the last 10 years, the figure is something like 1% above inflation for the 10 year period with many years of below inflation pay (even during the boom finance years).
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I see they are going to lead the march on the day when we have a world leading cycle race in the town.
This will impact on the race and the damage tourism and hence damage tax take from the second biggest sector in the island. Well done teachers you really don’t care that we already have 1,300 out of work you want to ensure we have more out of work as well just so you can have over inflation pay rises. while not one of you has lost a job!!!!
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In all the hours of hot air expended on this subject, on our radio, tv, J.E.P, blogs etc, I have not ONCE seen, heard, read…..anything at all about the levels of pay, actual working week, average holidays allowed, perks, pension rights etc etc enjoyed already by these staff.
The general public are, as usual, kept in the dark regarding the real facts.
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Ironic aint it! If they had never wasted so much money on Haut de la Garenne then there may have just been some more money in the pot for civil servant pay increases. What did they need £7 Million? That was about 2 months work for Lenny Harper and Graham Power at the time
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As above, I also don’t understand the first comment which is that this ‘is not about pay’ but which then immediately goes on to refer to ‘funding … to fill vacancies’, the wealth of the Island, and the ‘conditions of service’ (which obviously includes remuneration). This all sounds rather like a debate over pay to me!
As to why teachers might come to Jersey, there is obviously the fact of far lower rates of tax/social security etc, and the fact that it is simply a nice place to live. Moreover, people from the Island will naturally wish to come back here to work. How does a Jersey teacher’s pay compare with their equivalent in the UK anyway?
Are there really so many ‘vacancies’ in Jersey teaching? The States of Jersey Official Report of the debate on 30th June, 2009 reports at 2.14 that in September of last year 20 advertised vacancies were the subject of 140 applications, including from 31 locally qualified people. All positions were filled. The 87 applicants from the UK must presumably not have understood that things were so much better for them over there.
Pay freezes appear presently to be routine amongst employers in the Island, other than those who are winding up or who are obliged to be making redundancies due to the economic downturn. We are all suffering, and it is, to my mind, both crass and unwarranted for teachers to be taking such action which is very clearly aimed at negotiating increases in pay. Perhaps they might reflect instead on the value of the job security which comes with such a position, as opposed to those who now find themselves severely limited in securing a living through no fault of their own.
As an aside, I’d have hoped that those teaching our young had a better grasp of basic grammar, the use of capitalisation and the use of punctuation, than is evidence in the first comment above.
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This is digusting! If the UK is so great then go there!
I will give my kids the best education by sending them to private school.
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This proposed labour dispute is redolent of the ongoing British Airways cabin crew action: unwanted, being held at the wrong time, not taking economic circumstances into account, and purely perverse.
That said, I have absolutely no objections to this group of workers or any other seeking an improvement in its pay and conditions – but not at a time when the world in general, and this Bailiwick in particular, is struggling to beat crippling recession.
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“I imgine most, if not all Teachers have secure jobs and a good pension at the end of their careers.”
Edna – This is one of the issues… Jobs are not secure and there are issues for UK teachers who come over and stay for medium terms before returning home to the UK – their pensions are not protected.
These are two reasons why the public must support Teachers and all public sector employees. To ensure that this mismanagement does not happen again!
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Yes, just throw money at the teachers, I mean as St Helier points out, there are loads of jobs in the paper tonight and to hell with the Multi-million Pound Black Hole because they can just ram up GST on us all to pay for it.
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@13
I know that there is only about one specialist Physics Teacher on the island. Several advertisements have failed until recently to have any applications at all.
There are currently at least 8 specialist Maths positions required across the island.
The response to a recent On Island Advertisements led to the position being re-advertised.
There are non-specialists teaching English and History as well across the island.
The system is starting to crumble…
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Judging by the standards of some of the students who cannot find a job do they actually deserve a pay rise?
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@Magnolia Man ‘but not at a time when the world in general, and this Bailiwick in particular, is struggling to beat crippling recession.’
Jersey has not borrowed in this recession, has several hundred million in reserves and is the 6th richest country GDP per Capita in the world. The money is there, it just needs some redistribution.
@tom – how can the march damage a cycle race held in another part of the island? How can the extra revenue for the tourist industry created by the influx of people from the UK coming to support hurt the tourist industry? The hotels and restaurants will be laughing, tourists, cyclists and now a whole load of teachers and fire fighters to acommodate.
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To quote tonight’s J.E.P., all islanders should live within their budgets and cut expenditure if it exceeds income. This principle is generally accepted, but controversy begins when decisions have to be taken about where economies must be made.”
I think Edna Cloud (Head in a cloud?) # 7, is right when she says teachers need to exercise restraint – as indeed does everyone else – until the economy is healthy again. It is only by working together that we will see the so called ‘green shoots of recovery’…..that also means the States need to motivate and negotiate a settlement. Autocracy isn’t an ideal form of government.
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@ Mulvie le Phew
Headlines sell papers. The truth is far more complex. This is about SO much more than pay.
@Tom
It’s a bike race. Deal with it.
@Ab
Nice…you would pack unhappy public sector teaching staff off to the UK to the detriment of the rest of us who can’t afford to send our children to private schools. What a lovely attitude.
@ Magnolia Man
Crippling recession? Huh? We are crippled because thanks to the introduction of the zero-ten tax policy we are minus the millions that used to be paid to us by foreign businesses operating in Jersey.
Without zero-ten we would NOT have a deficit!
So foreign businesses get to keep their money…yet local teachers are hit with a pay freeze and redundancies. Lovely!
Incidentally be it known that many of the changes to working conditions requested by the teachers cost very little to implement, yet still the States refused to even SEND someone of import to the meeting to discuss them.
Essentially the States are adopting a ‘talk to the hand’ policy…to which the only response is a ‘then talk to the strike’ policy.
Mick
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@21 – but its not a pay dispute?!
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Its nice to have a union to turn to isn’t it !!!!!
Shame the rest of us who are lucky to have a job have to either like it or lump it……..
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I have just thought of a good example of why this is not a pay dispute…
If primary teachers were given 10% PPA time, which is what secondary teachers are given (and which is standard in the UK), then this would almost certainly get the approval of the members.
If teachers were removed from having to work during their scheduled breaks (as they are in the UK) then this would almost certainly get the approval of our members.
Both of these are nothing to do with a pay rise. Both are about conditions of service which members of our profession enjoy everywhere else in the UK.
That’s right, the UK has been hit by a recession as well (more deeply than Jersey) and they are able to continue to implement these conditions with little effect on the economy. Why can’t Jersey? Which has not been hit as hard?
All we are asking for is a fair go! We are not expecting pay increases, we ARE expecting to have our employer listen to our concerns.
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“It is only by working together…”
Would be nice if it wasn’t a fairey tale. The problem is too much greed today, there are too many selfish people now in jersey who couldn’t give a damn about anyone else as long as they have loads of money.
Just remember we wouldn’t be in this mess if the government hadn’t brought in 0-10 and taxed the rich a proper amount. This is the core issue and the real reason for GST.
I don’t blame the teachers for wanting to protect what they have been promised. I would do the same if my employer tried to do this to me. There are things that are sacrosanct and pensions are one of them as far as I am concerned.
A promise is a promise and it should be honoured, failing to honour one’s promises leaves one open to being called a liar IMHO. I myself would never work for an employer that could do this.
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St Helier – 1. We have been Awarded NOTHING for 2009.
I don’t recall saying you had, neither did I or many others.
2. We have been offered a 2% flat for 2010 (below inflation) so long as we accept redundencies within the Teaching Sector. This has not been discussed nor accepted by members because of the ongoing 2009 dispute.
Below inflation? depending on what measure you use, as for this year’s 2% I have been offered nothing again neither have many others, I don’t expect anything next year either. Personally I’ll be happy to remain in gainful employment.As for accept redundancise, we were not given a choice.
The common thread running through this dispute from the side of those who are not public employees is disbelief that people in relatively safe, well paid jobs with excellent benefits ( 3 months paid holiday, pension, sick pay not restricted to 10 days a year without penalty – a certain well known bank )are complaining about money and conditions at a time whn people in the private sector face mass redundancy and uncertainty in their jobs. Let me tell you about conditions in the private sector, we’ve lost over half of our department and are expected to maintain the same level of service, this without a pay rise last year, this or next. This is the reality that we face, the perception is that as you have never existed in this reality you consider that it does not apply to you at a time when we face the worst economic crisis since the 1930′s – this is why you have so little support.
Now please explain in detail the terms and conditions that are so onerous to you to enable us to better understand your plight.
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10 bit of a cycling fan perhaps…? let’s be honest cyclists are a serious butt ache…the Lycra’d ones. bit pervy all that package bulging flashing and I find. to say nothing of the negative impact on drivers…Oh..! and that lie down number…A death wish if ever there was one.
Oh and that leg shaving for extra speed….yeah that’ll be right.
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Adrian # 26 It has been said that cynicism is an unpleasant way of saying the truth. I imagine you are right; working together would be desirable, but unlikely.I am a romantic and love fairy tales but as Private Fraser in Dad’s Army, always says. “We are dooomed, all dooomed I tell you.”
Never mind, there is always the elections – we can vote in another set of politicians who promise to do better.
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Blue Knight it would be nice but then people would have to share a bit wouldn’t they? So instead of doing what is right they try and stitch each other up for a few pence. Pretty sad but this life as we know it today, so much for the teachings of Jesus Christ. Hopefully the whole lot will collapse soon then we can get back to a decent life for a change.
Unfortunately I don’t have your confidence. Knowing what the electorate is like over here it will be the same old same old. The electorate is pretty dim IMHO, well they must be to keep voting for these idiots as far as I am concerned. I wouldn’t even contemplate putting the usual CoM candidates in charge of cleaning up the Royal Square, let alone running the island!
My honest analysis is carry on as we are with the usual standard of candidate that gets into the CoM and you can say goodbye to any decent future for the average person over here. No problem if you are rich or big business though as they are looked after to the detriment of the average person IMHO.
Sorry to be so brutal but I have always believed in giving my honest opinions. If you think this is bad what is worse my direct approach or the usual from the CoM spinning things as ok?
Private Fraser is closer to the truth than the CoM would want to admit IMHO. However you can’t go around upsetting the voters when you are only 18 months from an election and you want your men back in can you? No doubt it will be the same Tory candidates next time round. Come on electorate wakey wakey!
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@ Mulvie Your point at 5… give back the pay rise and prove it? …
How can we give something back that has not been given to us?
Why do people bring it back to Pay? It is about our contractual RIGHT to negotiate – one might say that the employer has a DUTY to Negotiate and they are not fulfilling that duty.
We want them to speak to us, not bankrupt Jersey.
If a Trust Company Broke Trust with a Client, we would all say, well, they broke their contract.
The States have broken Trust with us, their employees, and we are asking them to come and talk to us about fulfilling their Contractual Obligations…
Their response has been a resounding “The SEB says No!”…
That’s just not good enough.
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A couple of interesting quotes from Adrian:
“we wouldn’t be in this mess if the government hadn’t brought in 0-10 and taxed the rich a proper amount”
“A promise is a promise and it should be honoured”
So, shouldn’t the alleged promise to certain 1,1,Ks to keep their tax low be honoured, IYHO?
It is, after all, a topic which is close to your heart!
If I may quote from one of my previous posts:
“Most of the time I find myself understanding his (Adrian’s) point of view but from time to time he drops himself in it with inconsistencies!”
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ok, there’ll be a march…some agree, some don’t…the JEP ain’t saying when the march is….
anyone know?
also, will there be cake?
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The thing that makes me smile about the comments above is that the States must also be laughing, smiling and rubbing their hands. It seems it is the private sector vs. the public sector and this is what they want and you are all giving them what they want….an excuse to put up tax’s!
If and when taxes are increased the States will need an excuse to blame it on and the public workers will be the excuse. The Employment board have the power to end this dispute now but choose not to meet with the teachers. They have yet to also meet and agree with the manual workers and all the other departments that have not yet been spoken to. This is going to drag on for more than a year and will lead to tax’s been raised…… Job done.
Let’s be honest here…. private or public we all have to live and earn our keep, if this means fighting for our working conditions and contracts, so be it. We are all trying to earn a crust and any increase in tax effects us all. The increase in the cost of living effects us all. The world wide credit crunch caused by the banks in the private sector effected ALL of us. In the UK the Govt used UK tax payers money to save the banks directly and indirectly….. so some of you private finance workers remember you are in a job supported by the UK tax payer.
We ALL should support each other because if we don’t they win and we ALL suffer…….
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St Helier #18
Why are the States wanting redundancies when, as you say, there sounds like a big shortage of teachers already?
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How about a march by the Tax Payers of Jersey at the same time and place, to demonstrate how we feel about the Public sector’s demands that we suffer greater deductions to meet their interpretation of ‘fair’ pay and conditions ?
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#36
“How about a march by the Tax Payers of Jersey”
Taxpayers of Jersey? You lot don’t know the meaning of “Tax”.
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@wiwolad The march is 24th April from Howard Davis park
On the terms and conditions stuff – all of it is done in the UK and its cost negligible and its all designed to, and does, improve the standard of education. So what’s greedy and selfish about that?
AND no one asked for a payrise now, they asked when would it be balanced out, when and how in the future could the pay freeze be compensated for when the good times roll around again, and if there no chance of compemsation could they talk about these improved terms and conditions. The answer was no, so its clear that teachers need to fight to protect the education of the kids as well as the right for people not to suffer a dictator of an employer.
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Teachers, firemen and all those others who feel disgruntled.
Remember to vote at the next elections (and by-election)
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March as much as you like.
Shout as much as you like
But do not, on pain of losing all sympathy from the general population use the weapon of disrupting the education of our children for your selfish gains.
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St Helier
norman conquest makes a good point. So many vacancies yet you say the States want redundancies. Maybe you can explain that anomaly? By what you’re saying it seems that we are saturated with teachers who cannot teach some of the more challenging subjects? If that’s the case why would you expect a surplus of jobs specialising in one subject to be protected a reasonable cause for strike action?
You said “If teachers were removed from having to work during their scheduled breaks…”
Did you mean breaks in the plural sense? Wow! I get 1 break, it’s called lunch and if it’s 30 minutes I’m grateful. Most are expected to work through their one and only break from time to time . If they don’t like it they look to a company that gives you your 1 hour a day. Same applies to teachers. Get over it.
You said “there are issues for UK teachers who come over and stay for medium terms before returning home to the UK – their pensions are not protected.”
Assuming Jersey teachers are not on the same scheme as UK teachers why would you expect those terms and conditions to be transferable? That would be like a Jersey civil servant moving to the UK civil service and expecting the same deal. No one would get that. Those moving to and from the UK are well aware of the effects on their benefits like any public sector worker moving to the UK or the private sector.
Yes you do have a right to negotiate. The employer said no pay rise for 2009 so now what, continue arguing and striking until you get a pay rise? Oh but it’s not about pay is it.
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Interesting quote yesterday from one of the union leaders representing 9 out of 10 of Los Angeles Department of Water and Power workers. (Who despite working for a bankrupt State, have just received guaranteed salary increases for the next 5 years):
Confronted with the complaints of angry ratepayers, he responded ‘..generally how they feel is not relevant’.
Coming shortly to a town near you …..
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If they strike let them go. The UK is in trouble and if the the UK J-Cats think they are better off going back then so be it.
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Ab (14)
You do realise that private schools need teachers too! If this issue is made big news in the UK then people won’t want to work here, whether for the states or in the private schools.
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The latest turn of events is that this march will now be joined by other public sector manual workers.
That, in my opinion, will surely destroy any credibility that the teachers may or may not have had with their planned actions. This will now simply be seen as a case of holding the island to ransom for more money.
It’s highly ebatable whether or not the teachers should be given more money, particularly in the current economic climate. However, the manual workers are a whole different story and they have little justification in joining this proposed march, it’s just a csae of jumping on the bandwagon and i for one feel that this will make a farce of the message that the teachers are attempting to portray.
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#34 Mark, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Divide and conquer. And as long as we’re all occupied being hacked off at teachers and firefighters goodness knows what is going on at the States. I was also told that Physics and Maths are understaffed across the island and those are certainly not subjects that you want a non-specialist to be teaching. Are other subjects oversubscribed? or is it admin redundancies that the States are planning?
It will be good to find out when the march is, see what the placards actually say, who knows, maybe we’ll actually get some truth.
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CLV “So, shouldn’t the alleged promise to certain 1,1,Ks to keep their tax low be honoured, IYHO?”
No because they shouldn’t have been made in the first place. I doubt many islanders would ever agree to this and I certainly don’t. No way would I be giving those with the most money preferential tax concessions. After all if 20% is the bench mark then that should apply to everyone after a few basic allowances, shouldn’t it, in a fair world?
As per work pensions these are there to enable the working class some time off before the grim reaper comes knocking if they are lucky enough to get there that is. The rich won’t need to worry about such basic things as pensions.
The rich do not need special concessions as they are more than capable of looking after themselves. If they don’t like it they have the choice to move somewhere else don’t they?
The other reason that 1.1k’s need looking at is because everyone else is having to pay 20 means 20. If my tax can be altered by the government when it suits so can theirs as far as I am concerned. Besides it isn’t as if they will suffer financial hardship is it? Unlike many elderly now who are being crippled by GST on top of high prices over here.
These are my opinions on this topic and I believe they are consistent with wanting a fairer soicety than what we have at present.
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PJG those at the top of pile are using the rest open your eyes.
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All of you who think that sending their Children to the Private Schools will help…
Which schools do you mean? VCJ and JCG are not private, they are states employed. Only DLS and Beatlieu are Private and they are pretty full already….
OK – and St Michaels, and all the other boutique schools for the ultra rich…
But by all means, please all apply to send students there…
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I want to reassure you all that you should not ever worry that private school teachers are any better teachers. They are trained the same, follow the same curriculum, many are paid on the states scale anyway with the same pension. I have known 2 teachers who couldnt hack it at states schools (basically werent good enough to handle some trickier children) they left and went to private schools! I dont think that is why most people send their kids to private school. Dont get me wrong, I am certainly not against states or ptrivate. Each to their own but I just wanted to clear up- many teachers have worked in both sectors!
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Its interesting that on here finance workers seem to have such a hard life. Everyone I know in finance say they are ridiculously overpaid for what they do. I meet them wandering around town because they are bored, having cigarette breaks when they like, popping to cake and coffee shops daily! And browsing the net, making phonecalls at work. It seems you lot on here are working in the wrong office!
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St Helier (18)
I have to agree with you, some subjects such as art and history are pretty easy to teach and require little or no skill. Others such as Mathematics and Physics even those high up in the finance industry earning hundreds of thousands could probably not understand.
So why would a Mathematician want to teach? I think the answer to the pay rise dispute should be increasing pay for Maths, Physics and perhaps Chemistry teachers and reducing pay for Art, Media and teachers of similar subjects.
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I assume Annie Du Feu that you are a teacher and know what is involved in teaching these subjects? Presumably you could walk into a class and teach art, music, art and similar subjects, whatever they may be!
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Annie,
The idea that some areas of knowledge are more important than others would lead only to a dystopian world – think Farenheit 451 or 1984.
To suggest that Art, Music, History or other subjects lack the rigour of Maths, Chem et al is to misunderstand the skills that are required in today’s world…
I have seen PhD Mathematicians fail in a classroom, and seen an Art Teacher save a student from a life of unskilled work by showing them the history of art and its many wonders. The student was a success at university.
Teachers are not important because of what subject they teach, they are important because of what they inspire in their students.
How can you ever remove the joy of success that a student feels the first time they walk off stage on opening night to a standing ovation?
Or seeing their work on exhibition for the first time?
That is what would happen if you paid teachers depending on what subject they taught…
No – to do as you suggest blames teachers for what many already acknowledge is a broken curriculum and one which is even outside the power of the Council of Ministers to fix…
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@ Annie Du Feu
LMAO at art and history being ‘easy’ to teach. I’d like to see you control a class of 30 teenagers wielding brushes and paintpots whilst teaching them how to approach an Impressionist representation. The skill in teaching is in TEACHING (eg the verb TO TEACH)…and this is a skill required and practiced by History teachers and Physics teachers alike.
I always laugh my socks off when idiots come out with that ‘those that do DO and those that can’t teach’…they seem to forget that TEACHING is a learned skill in itself. THOSE THAT CAN TEACH, DO.
For those of you wondering what we teachers over here are complaining about with regards working conditions, here’s a little day in the life.
Anne is a 42 year old English teacher, just returned from maternity leave. She has yet to receive 60% of her maternity pay but stands to lose ALL of it if she has ONE day off sick in the next 3 months. (WOULD NOT HAPPEN IN UK – NO SUCH LAW)
Anne arrives at school and promptly starts preparing her classroom. At 8.45 am there is a staff briefing.
Anne starts teaching at 9am. During her second period, three students started a fight in her room and told her to F@&% off when she got involved. Having called for help, one of the children was removed and the other two left for Anne to deal with. These children are regularly violent in the classroom (UNLIKE THE UK WE HAVE NO BEHAVIORAL UNITS AND SO ANNE MUST SIMPLY PUT UP WITH THEIR BEHAVIOUR DAILY. NOMINAL PUNISHMENTS ARE IMPOSED, THOUGH THESE ARE LARGELY INEFFECTIVE).
Her lesson ruined (along with the learning of that particular class of 30) Anne is about to sit the two down at break and discuss their misbehaviour with them but realises that she is now on break duty and instead rushes down the stairs and out into the playground to keep watch over 100s of other children. (WOULD NOT HAPPEN IN UK – THEY EMPLOY BREAK SUPERVISORS)
Lunch duty finished, Anne has a free period. She is about to find a chair in the staff room to sit in (having been on her feet for 3 hours) and start writing up a report on the fight incident from earlier, but then remembers that she is down to cover a Maths lesson for an absent colleague (second time that week). Off she goes to that lesson, hoping that some work has been left for her to set the children (WOULD NOT HAPPEN IN UK – SUPPLY TEACHERS ARE USED TO COVER ABSENTEE LESSONS)
Anne’s next lesson is spent dealing with an Asperger’s child who is having a hard time being picked on by his peers. Whilst leaving the classroom to help calm this pupil down (the rest of the class’ work is on the board) a pupil sprays Coke all over the room (WOULD NOT HAPPEN IN UK – SUPPORT PROVISION IS SO MUCH GREATER). Anne now returns to the room to find out how this happened. Focus of learning in the room has been lost again.
Lunch time (30 mins) and Anne spends 15 minutes dealing with the Coke sprayers before making her way to the staff room to wolf down a sandwich before the bell goes.
The afternoon lessons pass relatively well. At the end of the day Anne must supervise the children as they fight their way on to the bus (WOULD NOT HAPPEN IN UK – EXTRA SUPERVISORS PROVIDED).
It is now four o clock, and Anne is sitting in on some detentions. She phones the parents of the coke sprayer and the fighters, to be told that she is the teacher and it is therefore her job to sort out the children’s behaviour.
At five o clock Anne finishes her filing (WOULD NOT HAPPEN IN UK – ADMIN STAFF PROVIDED) and goes home. She spends an hour marking books, and half an hour preparing for tomorrow’s lesson. She also spends 30 mins on the phone chatting casually to a fellow teacher about the school, the children, etc
Glancing through the comments pages on thisisjersey.com she sees a lot of people accusing her of being greedy and selfish; apparently if she doesn’t like her job she should ‘get the boat.’
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Okay, so a question for all you parents out there. Your child is one of Anne’s pupils. Do you think that they are receiving the best education that they can be, based on Anne’s day? What recommendations would you make to improve the teaching and learning conditions for all?
Same ones we make, probably, and have been for years. We are ignored. So we will continue to make them, be it on strike, via a march, on these boards, WHEREVER.
A lengthy post I know, but one that should clear up a few of the queries raised over the past few weeks.
Mick
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When teachers are off sick sometimes the class is split around the school with a folder of work- even 4 year olds! This is not the education they deserve in such a rich island. This is all to save costs of getting a supply in.
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“So why would a Mathematician want to teach?”
Does it work that way around? I grew up with people that wanted to teach and as they grew up they worked out what subjects they excelled at then taught those subjects. Others studied a subject, but later in life realised they wanted to teach and moved into teaching (not because they’d failed at something else).
Such people would tend to say they want to be a teacher rather than that they want to be a mathematician.
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What a spiffing idea. I know many others who are not teachers who want more cash and better conditions. – why don’t all public and private sector workers join the march and make it an all island affair. That’ll show the government the error of their ways grrrr……
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#55 Well said. Who is going to train to be a teacher when that is what awaits them? Tomorrow’s teachers AND children deserve better.
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I haven’t posted on this forum yet as I am still undecided as to how I feel about this. I support the teachers as I believe they deserve better, but I also know that these are difficult times.
It is interesting to read peoples comments, some I agree with, some I don’t, but I can understand why people have strong feelings and beliefs either way. After all we are all entitled to our own opinions, and quite rightly so.
However, occasionally I come across a comment where I wonder whether the poster is writing such a ridiculous thing to a) provoke a response, or b) seriously wind people up. (I believe this is called trolling?)
Annie De Fue @ 52 is one such comment. Or perhaps I am misunderstanding her humour.
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Facts are that 400 who worked in Jersey finance lost their jobs in 2009. Jersey has the highest number of people out of work for decades ( around 1,300) and a looming deficit of a mere £64,000,000. Lets mention the gold plated index linked pension that we help, through our taxes to pay the public sector, which most outside of the public sector cannot afford.
We gave as a goodwill jesture one million pounds to top up the teachers pension fund.Is this still ongoing annually ?
Lets not also forget that teachers, and other public sector workers get paid substantially more than their UK counterparts with far less tax to pay, about 30% for headteachers.
To be fair Jerseys Government were plain stupid to accept a one off £1,000 pounds incremental pay rise at the start of the year.
That said, the public sector should all have a 2% wage increase, ( the civil service have accepted )and then tell us which of their number are going to resign ( or be sacked ) to pay for it. There are obviously many teachers who are not happy with their lot and can do better in other employment.
Not wishing to be rude but why are so many teenagers leaving school without being able to read and write JEP article by Jerseys unhappy employers.
Finally scrutiny places in the public domain ( please read panel report ) that there is a problem with the contractual arrangements with teachers as class sizes are getting smaller ( less children ) but teachers still have to be employed. Not in the private sector folks.
Are you not being just plain greedy ?
Davey
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Those who can’t do it teach it.
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Several months holiday a year and big fat pensions my heart bleeds!
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Adrian
So from your comment #48 am I to think you believe its justified for teachers to seriously disrupt a youngsters schooling and possibly the rest of their lives by exploiting their vulnerability, because “you” think some bosses exploit their workers.
Since when have 2 wrongs made a right ?
St Helier
If this really is not a pay claim from militant selfish cowards who do not have the gumtion to leave their jobs for better ones, and they really do want to do their bit for the struggling community why not say so. By not asking for a rise, and then suggesting some conditions that will not cost the taxpayer and will also satisfy the teachers ?
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PJG do you have learning difficulties by any chance? HOW MANY TIMES must you be told that the proposed action is simply work to rule and will NOT affect pupils’ learning, exam prep etc in the slightest.
Mick
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PJG exploitation must be fought wherever it rears its ugly head. It is plain wrong and should be consigned to the bin of history.
Unfortunately capitalism encourages the worst of human traits. It is also failing the vast majority to the benefit of the few IMHO.
As per the teachers a few days off of school for the school kids won’t do them any harm. However it will put the establishment in its place which is a good thing as far as I am concerned. I don’t like arrogance and intransigence especially when a valid argue has been put forward as to why things need to change.
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Mick (60) you say that this proposed action will merely be a work to rule, and indeed in an earlier thread you said exactly the same thing in response to my tirade about a strike which would hold the parents of the island to ransom.
To that I’d say fair enough, if you’ve got issues with with bosses ie the States refusing to even open a debate, then that’s a reasonable step and nobody could reasonably deny you that right.
However, in your post at (55) you say, ” we will continue to make them, be it on strike, via a march, on these boards, WHEREVER.”
So, Mick…please tell us once again (for those of us with learning difficulties) – Strike, or No Strike?
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St Helier 16
“This is one of the issues… Jobs are not secure”
Newsflash…..nobody’s job is secure….we are in a recession and hundereds of people are losing their livelihoods!
MLP 27
Well said…I think a reality check is in order for these academics.
St Helier 31
“It is about our contractual RIGHT to negotiate ”
Somehow I don’t believe this otherwise there is no reason for the States to give you the “right” to negotiate and then subsequently refuse any request you make!
Dan 51
…..and they are likely to be the next unfortunate redundancies I should imagine!
Mick 55
Several flaws to your typical day for “Anne”. If a teacher is absent often then perhaps disciplinary action is required…who says they are not just bunking off?
Why are you allowing drinks (or food) in the classroom?
Where is the headmaster in all this and what is his role these days?
I still don’t see how “overworked” you teachers claim to be. 8:45 start and 5pm finish with 30 minute lunch (excluding free periods and breaks when they don’t have to cover absent teachers!). Try working a straight 10 hour day, dealing with stressed colleagues, unruly management and over demanding clients, no lunch or breaks generally but coffee and food at desks whilst working. Welcome to finance.
Now grow up and get back to teaching…blame your absent colleagues for any extra volumes of work you have to do to cover for them.
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@Tobias,
Sorry to hear about your learning difficulties.
A strike occurs when a section of the workforce refuses to perform certain duties in protest at their working conditions.
The teachers’ strike will see us refusing to do break duties or other aspects of the job not stipulated in our contracts.
As we are contractually bound to turn up each day and teach, mark etc…so we shall continue to do so (with pleasure, as the success of our students is paramount).
Hence no child’s education shall suffer, merely the States, who will be inconvenienced into finding alternative means of covering those roles that we will not be covering as part of our strike. They will HAVE to.
We are holding this ‘strike’ (which is essentially the adoption of a ‘work to rule’ policy) in order to make the points I have specified in my lengthy post above.
Simply MAKING them gets us nowhere, as years and years of having done so to little end will testify.
So yes to STRIKE…but one that should NOT affect the childrens’ actual education.
Hope this helps your understanding.
Mick
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To be fair to Senator Ozouf and CM Le Suer they have spent enough of our money on consultants and had plenty of statistics and relevant economic information to know that Jerseys golden, top of the hill days are over. So as we slide down the other side they ( yes we know give some mixed messages ) but the ones I and others are picking up is that we are heading for serious financial deficits.
Philip Ozouf is crashing his foot on the brake and even Terry Le Suer is making an attempt at using pulling up the handbrake.
When Jersey goes bust, because corrective economic action is not taken seriously. Then the public sector, like the rest of us will wish belts had got tightened sooner, while jobs were still available.
Question
If an island as small as Jersey( 12 x 5 miles ) cannot control it spending now, how is it going to pay off its depts, when it is hundreds of millions in the red ?
Davey.
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@ BS Deluxe
My heart bleeds for you poor little financiers in your suits sitting at your desks all day listening to the nasty man being mean to you down the phone. Awwww ders bedder poor liddle men.
We don’t claim to be overworked btw…just that the conditions that we work in are not optimal for effective teaching/learning. If I came and flung peanuts at you all day as you worked at your desk you wouldn’t claim that you were overworked, but merely that your working conditions made it such that you were finding it hard to do you job properly. Ditto with us teachers.
Overworked vs poor working conditions – big difference.
Food ISN’T allowed in the classroom btw. But then children always do exactly what you tell them, don’t they.
Your instruction to ‘grow up and get back to teaching’ tells me all I need to know about the kind of splenetic ignoramus I am dealing with here. Enough.
Mick
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I can’t comment on the conditions that teachers are fighting for but I do know that a numbers of newly qualified teachers have returned to the island and are working supply as they cannot find a permanent post.
I would also love the generous pension package as I don’t have a pension plan!
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Is it me or did it all go ti*s up when they banned corporal punishment in schools? When I was at school there was the cane although many teachers preferred the fist. It worked for the most part, except with really thick kids who never seemed to make the connection between misbehaving and getting a kicking, kept the teachers fit mind.
You simply would never have told a teacher to F Off, or sprayed Coke, caan’t be much fun being a teacher these days, hitting the kids was a perk of the job.
Why was this banned and why was no working replacement put in place? Same as the adult world where a burglar can sue if he gets bitten by your dog when entering your home. Meantime you can’t take measures to stop him raping your wife and killing you.
I think the teachers have a point regarding unruly and disruptive pupils but that’s not what they are striking about is it? it’s about money as far as I can tell, even theough they keep denying it.
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This is not a dispute between the Teachers and the council of Ministers but a demand that more monies should be taken from the people of Jersey and given to the public sector. Perhaps therefore the teachers should first explain to us why we should have to pay higher tax and GST to pay them off. Indeed many commentators in their haste to jump on the anti government bandwagon seem to forget that the money required to pay teachers has to be taken from their pockets as well as the pensioners, unemployed and those struggling to meet their basic living costs. We are not all rich and most of us have not received a pay rise for many years, indeed many have had their pay and conditions substantially reduced. We are reminded that over six thousand signed the anti GST petition yet it seems these same people fail to understand that tax will have to rise even further to meet these demands.
If the Teachers want to negotiate then let’s open up all the Teaching jobs and let everybody apply. Those currently unemployed could be given a state grant to attend university and achieve the necessary exams. The Teachers want to negotiate a “commercial” salary then they also get commercial employment conditions and lose their special status of guaranteed for life job status and gold plated pensions.
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What we need is smaller classes under 20 like the private sector.
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Cathy @72
If you don’t have a pension plan then that is your choice. Anyone can take one out.
And whilst I agree that the benefits of pension plan is a generous one it certainly is not free; We have to pay for it. Mine costs me just on £300 a month!
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Cathy, states workers pay into their pension plan, its not free – if you are foolish enough not to pay into a private pension then you only have yourself to blame!!
I am sure states employees would love bonuses every year (which there are plenty in the private sector still receiving)but they don’t even get a contribution to a Christmas ‘do’let alone retirement ‘do’s’ which they have to pay for themselves.
I know people in the private sector who have been told to keep quite about last years paid for Christmas ‘do’ and bonuses paid!!
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St Helier: “don’t think that this is about anything other than our contractual right to negotiate.”
Are you seriously suggesting that if SEB agrees to negotiate, but the teachers did not receive a pay rise or any other benefits following that negotiation, the teachers would be fine with that position?? I doubt it. This is clearly about money, however you try to cut it.
All we are seeing is the Unions stiring up trouble to justify their existence.
No-one has the right to negotiate in today’s market other than to say: if i don’t get want I want I’m gone. But of course even that is limited due to the lack of jobs.
Teachers in Jersey have a very good package. Starting (!) on £30k, having very nice working hours and long holidays and not having to deal with the most troublesome children.
What exactly is the teachers’ problem? Having to do playground duty? Having to mark books after school? Having to work like the rest of us!? Having to find something to do while they twiddle their thumbs during their long summer break!??!
They have already been offered a guaranteed pay rise of 4% over the next two years. Most people have taken pay cuts or accept pay freezes due to the economic climate. Count yourselves lucky.
Your interests would be far better served by accepting the current situation and the offered pay rise on the understanding that when times are better, you will expect to be rewarded for acting the public interest now.
If, when times are better, you still have no ‘right to negotiate’, the public is likely to sympathise. If on the other hand, you push for a negotiation now when times are bad and the majority of people have no sympathy, you will not acheive much of a settlement and are likely to damage your ability to negotiate further when the times are good.
Ultimately, this action is not in the public interest nor, in the long term, in the teachers’ interest.
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@ all those who talk of ‘Gold Plated Pensions’
The Jersey superannuation scheme is not anything like as good as the UK Teachers Pension Scheme.
The average Teachers Pension Scheme payout in the UK is £9k per annum.
What on earth is ‘gold plated’ about that???
The ONLY good thing about teacherspensions in the UK is they are less prone to disappearing due to a stock market disaster as they are held by the government.
NOT gold plated, just safer, and the point is that all pensions should be as safe and instead of griping about it, join your union sort it out. The more of you there are, the more chance you have of making better changes for yourselves and for the society you live in and the one you want your kids to live in.
And another fact before anyone goes on about the bad bad unions – 70% of FTSE 100 companies are unionised. Unionised companies have employees that are better paid and live longer. These are facts.
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Mick #65
No, I do not have learning difficulties.
I do not think, no matter how its dressed up that a work to rule / contract is a strike and it worries me that someone who is teaching our children does.
Do you suffer from learning difficulties ? or are you just so self centred you cannot / will not see the struggling community (your employer) all around you.
You say,
Hence no child’s education shall suffer, merely the States, who will be inconvenienced into finding alternative means of covering those roles that we will not be covering as part of our strike. They will HAVE to.
What an absurd simplistic statement from a supposedly educated person. I was earning a living in the 60s and can assure you its not that simple.
The removal of good will(work to rule etc)is industrial action and the employer will act acordingly.If the employer as in this case cannot afford the demands made they will have to shut down the schools as it will be unsafe to continue without teachers good will.
Go on strike, again the schools will be shut.
Pupils will suffer either way!
Schools make no profit, The longer they stay shut the more money the employer saves. No lost production in material terms, Your employer can hold out much longer than you. Only the future of our children will be harmed, and hear me well, no matter how well you and your Trotsky mates dress it up YOU WILL BE BLAMED.
All the time the schools are shut you and your militant mates get no wages, no wages no mortgage repayments, Its you that will HAVE to.
Its been asked a few times on this site, how about an answer.
If the teachers in the UK have it so good why don’t you have the guts to up sticks and go work there. I for one do not want such militancy teaching our children
I have a niece and her husband who are both qualified teachers working in London who would jump at the chance of a job in their native Jersey, even if it did mean swopping the threat of being stabbed for a few extra duties.
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The thing that makes me smile about the comments above is that the States must also be laughing, smiling and rubbing their hands. It seems it is the private sector vs. the public sector and this is what they want and you are all giving them what they want….an excuse to put up tax’s!
If and when taxes are increased the States will need an excuse to blame it on and the public workers will be the excuse. The Employment board have the power to end this dispute now but choose not to meet with the teachers. They have yet to also meet and agree with the manual workers and all the other departments that have not yet been spoken to. This is going to drag on for more than a year and will lead to tax’s been raised…… Job done.
Let’s be honest here…. private or public we all have to live and earn our keep, if this means fighting for our working conditions and contracts, so be it. We are all trying to earn a crust and any increase in tax effects us all. The increase in the cost of living effects us all. The world wide credit crunch caused by the banks in the private sector effected ALL of us. In the UK the Govt used UK tax payers money to save the banks directly and indirectly….. so some of you private finance workers remember you are in a job supported by the UK tax payer.
We ALL should support each other because if we don’t they win and we ALL suffer…….
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Mick (69)
Thanks for the reply, that does indeed help my understanding.
You see, when newspaper headlines scream, “teachers to go on strike” it causes splenetic ignorami such as myself to immediately jump to the erroneous conclusion that schools will be closed and thousands of parents forced to take emergency time off work. Perhaps that’s partly the reason for the backlash you chaps have been receiving?
BTW, one hopes that you don’t talk to your pupils in the same sarcastic vein that you address some of us simpletons on here… remember – patience is a virtue, and indeed I would have thought it a prerequisite for anyone in the teaching profession.
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76&77
The pension plan is generous and the cost of maintaining it is obviously going to have an indirect effect on terms.
Looking at the recent turmoil of unit linked pensions I actually think I have been considerably sensible rather than foolish (I didn’t say I hadn’t made other provisions).
K – I suspect that most employees are told whether or not a bonus may be given when taking up employment and they factor that in to whether or not to accept the job offer, so I don’t see how that is relevant?
It isn’t just States workers that pay into pension plans but most workers these days
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Mick 71
My word let’s hope you are not the spokesperson for the teaching fraternity because your PR skills are abysmal.
“My heart bleeds for you poor little financiers in your suits sitting at your desks all day listening to the nasty man being mean to you down the phone. Awwww ders bedder poor liddle men.”
What a pathetic retort and for that you deserve to be treated with utter contempt by the rest of us who don’t have it as EASY as you teachers!
I will try to respond in a manner in which a person of your your ignorance and immaturity may understand…Awwwwww poor liddle teachy weachy’s. We can’t handle a room full of impressionable kiddy widdy’s because we lack the backbone and wisdom to deal with kiddy widdy behaviour. We have no personality or character and no idea how to earn the respect from our kiddy widdys and we get weally upset when they don’t do what we say!
You say “We don’t claim to be overworked btw”
Well tell that to some of your colleagues!
I have learned through many comments from various teachers on these blogs that you all seem to be moaning about different things….some are moaning about being overworked, about covering break times, about covering absent staff, about working during holidays…..oh and above all about the right to NEGOTIATE. Of course nobody is moaning about their PAYPACKET are they!!??
If you treat your kids the same way you are treating the general public with your spin and BS then no wonder they have no respect for you!
Your conditions aren’t that bad at all…..and you know it. The right to negotiate is irrelevant if there is no room for negotiation….and you know it. A teachers benefits are good….and you know it.
If you cannot do your job properly and control your students then perhaps you should try a different vocation!
You are just throwing toys out of your pram as far as I am concerned!!
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#72 “I would also love the generous pension package as I don’t have a pension plan!”
Whose fault is that, then?
Perhaps you can’t see the point of unions as well as not planning for the future?
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PJG “you and your Trotsky mates”
Don’t you think that name calling is innappropriate, PJG?
How exactly do you arrive at this descriptor?
Or do you just think that it is another useful emotive phrase like good old “Holding to ransom”?
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85. Rozel Aubin – please see my reply on 83, which answers yor comment.
I don’t quite follow your thought processes and how we got to unions?
I would love to hear your comments on the number of recently qualified teachers that are currently unemployed – I don’t think they have a union for that?
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Mick,
It would appear you have no idea about teaching in the uk. I was born and educated in Jersey, left to go to uni to become a teacher. When I qualified I wanted nothing more than to come back to Jersey and give back what I had been given, but there were no jobs for me in Jersey when I finished. Was then offered one end of September which was too late as I had already accepted a job in the uk. So I have to remain the uk. Your little scenario of ‘Annie’ is just what we have to put up with in the UK and I get paid over 10k less! Keep dreaming that everyone is so much better off than you.
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Mick
It would seem you’ve been found out !
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Hi, Cathy. glad that you have made alternative provisions (83).
With regard to unemployed qualified teachers, there is nothing to stop them bcoming union members. In fact when I went to teacher training college (a long time ago) the teaching unions were more than happy to recruit student members.
Later I moved into non teaching work in the London education service and joined a local government union. I am currently an active steward but have not been employed since 1997. I am now a pensioner but my input to the trade union movement is still made very welcome and I no longer need to pay any dues.
I would ecourage everyone who has a job of any sort in Jersey to shun the anti union culture which exists in Jersey and which helps nobody but the already wealthy establishment. There is plenty of personal satisfaction to be gained from helping everyone to enjoy better working and pension conditions.
Apologies if I misconstrued your earlier post.
Rozel.
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The teachers are right to march more, industrial action is the only thing the wizard of Ozouf and Le Sueur will understand, not to mention the self interests of the ruling elite.
The Com. have drawn a line in the sand, there can be no turning back now. Take the neccessary action against the ruling elite.
You will not be on your own. 1300 Nurses will join you, then we will see how long the 1 (1k’s ) stay when the schools are closed and Nurses working to rule. If Nurses just took thier lunch breaks, A&E, Theatre and all night shifts would cease.
The fire brigade, para medics and manual workers should all follow suit.
Lets run this Island for islanders and not the ruling classes who would have us as a slave and master relationship.
Lets be clear what the offer to the Public sector is.
1/ a pay cut for 2009.
2/ a pay cut for 2010 and 2011
3/ slashing of pensions
4/ Massive cuts in services to the Public
5/ Job losses.
If the Com think Unite will support this, you are in a for years of action, right up to the election when your own seats will be filled by decent island people. Aka Kevin Keen and co.
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With reference to pension perhaps the Teachers could just remind us of how much additional tax the public already need to pay to make up the current deficit and this is before their current demands are met?
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Some of the comments appearing are quite frightening in their nature, implying that Union membership is required to secure a public sector job. So much then for the free negotiations being “demanded” which now appear hollow. This is becoming a “join the Union and obey orders to strike or else” agenda. As most of our tax already goes directly to meeting the salaries of teachers and public sector workers and the cost of meeting their current pension deficit is many times our rainy day fund any attempt to meet their demands will create additional hardship in our community.
This is not the battle of the public workers fighting the COM, it is the Unions fleecing the People of Jersey and unless we can unit and fight this threat, these Unions will bankrupt the Island in exactly the same way as the “Greedy Banker” did to the world economy.
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Do yo realise the overly generous public pensions will bankrupt this island.
The whinging going on at the moment by many public employees will pale into comparison.
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Jersey Girl,
I did my PGCE in London and taught for several years at a large North London Comprehensive. I then returned to Jersey and was instantly shocked at the disparity in working conditions. FACT.
BS Deluxe,
Found out? Huh? What on earth are you talking about? It seems to me that you have a limited grasp of the situation. You bang on about how great teaching conditions are over here but let’s me honest…you haven’t been in a Jersey classroom since you were a child, have you? Your posts are based upon assumptions; you know nothing of what it is to be a teacher over here. Just keep ringing the same ‘greed/selfish/holding us to ransom’ bell and defend your corner for the sake of pure argument alone.
I am vacating this thread now for fear PJG starts comparing the Jersey Teaching profession to Nazis or some such tripe. Just bear the following in mind:
At the centre of all of this are the pupils, your children. We want them to have the best education we can give them. At present the quality of their education is under threat. We teachers find this unacceptable and are complaining loudly about it.
This seems to annoys you. You would rather we just shut up and get back to delivering a substandard education? But hang on, aren’t you also complaining that standards are slipping, that children are leaving school unfit for work? Well then surely we should be thinking of ways to improve our education system?
But hang on, we can’t do that because the minute we start making suggestions on how to do this you get ANNOYED and start slagging us off.
We really can’t win, can we? Nice work, guys.
Mick
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To Mick and other teachers,
I think you have made a big mistake in deciding to protest about conditions whilst a recession is on. Why did you not protest earlier or wait until after to protest? How do you expect to get support when your average worker is facing redundancy or the sack.
Frankly your union is a joke, they have had plenty of years to gain better conditions yet for some reason they wait until times are tough for everyone and yet still expect your average layman to support them. To me, it seems that your union has actually let you down yet you cling to them for the hope of something better that they should have sorted out years ago.
What have your union leaders been doing in the past ten years, seems to me that they have been sorting themselves out.
I have nothing against teachers, and I agree that without them what will happen to our youth. However, I think you need to understand that its not just the states of jersey minister idiocy that has let you down, its also your own union.
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Unions are needed for one reason and for one reason only, to protect workers from the management/employer. Some on here would have it that unions are the bad guys. Time to wake up and smell the coffee as some would say.
Since when does not being in a recession get anyone a pay rise? I believe employers will use any excuse they can lay their hands on for not paying cost of living, they always have and they always will.
Grateful Fool since when has it been acceptable to entice people with promises of nice pensions etc then taking it away from them maybe just before they are due to retire? Would you not classify this as misleading people I certainly would.
PJG doesn’t think there is a need for unions because he thinks all employers are such nice people, and that they will always look out for their employees regardless of anything else. O to live in such a world
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http://www.nasuwt.org.uk/SouthEast/Jersey/TheCaseForPay/index.htm
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91.Anon
It really scares me how narrow minded some people are in this island.
“take the necessary action against the ruling elite”
I would hope that the calibre of our teachers has prepared them to ensure that their concerns over conditions are not hijacked by a small number of uneducated people and frightening comments.
Anon – why are you whinging about how long the K’s stay when schools are closed and nurses work to rule. There are 14,000 children in this island and if the schools close, there will be a lot more than “the ruling classes” leaving. The teachers wouldn’t have to march for conditions as they wouldn’t have a job and job losses would be a self fulfilling prophecy!
Read the comments on this page. Do you think they are all written by “the ruling elite”? Do you think everyone works in “finance” or is it possible many of us are regular Joe’s and Josephine’s” who are at best having pay freezes and conditions re-negotiated?
Many people here (like myself) think the teachers do a wonderful job, but are concerned at the timing of this march and many of us are also having to amend our expectations to ensure some form of job security.
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I have read all of the comments above and feel saddened………
As I sit in my lounge I can see the high pile of GCSE coursework projects that I am re-grading, in preparation for their being sent off to the examination board in May. On my USB stick I have a “to do” list that I need to complete by the start of the Summer Term – not because I am disorganised but due to the fact that I have been recently promoted and want my employers to know that they made the right choice. However, it would appear that I sit and twiddle my thumbs in the holidays.
Then I read about Anne on #55. I too have had days when I have chosen to be so busy that I have forgotten to eat, until I felt faint. I don’t resent this time spent with a rumbly tummy – during that time I have spent quality time with students, parents and my colleagues, doing the job I have been happily doing now for nearly twenty years.
Please do not think that time off school is taken lightly. When I am ill and in need of time away from work, my cover work is sent in by 730 a.m. and although in most cases it is not the work that I would have planned to do with the students if I were there, I always make sure it is relevant and achievable in my absence. When my children are ill the story is similar, but due to the fact I am lucky enough to have a supportive family I often feel the pull to my students is greater than the needs of my child and I opt to go to work and leave my child with their Granny (that is not easy to admit).
My heart sinks when I read that my professionalism and capabilities as an educator are questioned due to the fact I choose to work in the States Sector rather than the Private Sector. This is a choice, not a case of “luck”. I know that when I wake up each morning I am in the right job, at the right place and that I would not want to be working anywhere else…..or any other profession. I know that whatever the day brings it will be an education for both me and the students I teach.
Yes, I agree, we teachers work shorter daily hours then others in other professions. However, when the bell goes at 310 p.m. I spend until 430 p.m. calling parents re the day’s events or at staff meetings until 4.45 p.m. Then there is the treadmill that is motherhood until the children go to bed at 7.30 p.m. By 8.00 p.m. the laptop is out and my evening is spent either marking, planning, researching or creating certificates, new resources and much to my husband’s disgust I usually close the lid around midnight. Now, don’t get me wrong, I do this because I am ambitious and because I want to do it…..but is this not reassuring to the doubters?
I worked in other areas, in law firms, States Depts for a year in between teaching jobs when returning to the Island and found that the need was not there for holidays (I took two weeks off in the year and coped nicely), whereas I feel so drained nowadays I look forward to my time off, as a well earned break (although those GCSE projects are still there!). Also, during this time I knew that at 5.30 p.m. my job was done and I didn’t have to think about work until the following day (although I do realise I was ONLY A TEMP!!!).
In the 20 years that I have been teaching, which is not that long in the grand scale of things I know, I have seen many changes. Meeting time allocation has risen, students class sizes have grown, behaviour has deteriorated (of students that is, not teachers
), more workload has created more absence due to stress, leading to more cover and less planning time, duties have doubled (while in the UK teachers at the school I was at opted to do duties and were given the incentive of free canteen lunch for the favour!), to name a few.
I have just reread this and know how it sounds. Forums like this open up a plethora of different opinions, but I look towards my pile of work and know that a little part of me has been a bit hurt by some of the things I have read tonight, they will have to wait until tomorrow now when I am feeling less “bothered”.
So, now I know that I am about to hit the “Post Comment” on the bottom of here so best I check my spelling, my tenses etc as I have told you that I am a teacher so am opening myself up for criticism (although if you do find any mistakes, I am not an English teacher).
Honey
PS In tonight’s JEP, 10th April, M Osborne wrote a letter named by the Editor as “The teachers should be grateful to have jobs”. I so am, Mr/Mrs/Ms/Miss Osborne. I have friends who have been made redundant in recent months and know that I am lucky to be employed. However, please be aware that I chose to have my two beautiful children over buying a house (how do people in Jersey cope with both?), I have never asked for help from the States and have worked the whole of my adult like…..oh, and I too will not be able to afford a holiday this year and this is not due to a “greedy” lifestyle.
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Honey…. that’s all great, but you appear to be missing the point.
No one disputes that teachers work hard and often have to deal with stress. But so does everyone else! Your post reads like a moan about the fact that you have to work for a living.
Decent salaries, a guaranteed pay rise of 4% over the next two years and final salary pensions. What more do you want? When you compare this with the fact that most people are facing pay cuts or freezes and even redundancy, it is a farce that the teachers consider themselves so hard done by in these circumstances.
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I do hope these teachers are do their protest they do it in their own time. I am tired of my children having supplie teachers constantly.
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Adrian – you really are good are misreading peoples’ comments. If there is no money then there will be no pensions (or jobs). Simple economics and nothing about misleading people.
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The selfishness of people, especially within the current state of employment, is beyond me. The thousands of unemployed desperately seeking work or those who have been made redundant after years of service arn’t marching through the centre of town kicking up a fuss, making demands and acting like a bunch of spolit kids.
Everyone has to work hard, deal with the stresses of an everyday working life and put up with pay freezes/cuts and still try to make ends meet.
If people are so unhappy with their jobs then why not find another?!…I thought that teaching was one of those professions you got into because of the fufilment/satisfaction that providing education to others can bring however I am clearly mistaken and as 101 Jonty puts it, it must be the ‘Decent salaries, a guaranteed pay rise of 4% over the next two years and final salary pensions’…my bad.
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Jonty
I apologise if my comment read as a moan (I write as I speak and am far from negative in my approach to life), and I really don’t feel like I have missed the point.
What I wanted to portray was that, yes, I work hard and at no point did I say that other people don’t. We, in any industry, all have a service to provide to each other, and I would hope that all people are committed to their job as much as I am.
I really just wanted to point out to the people who appear to be negative to teachers that there are reasons why we feel that there is a need to recognise that times have changed and that conditions of service need to reflect this.
If you reread my comments you will see that I am more than aware that there are other people out there in other jobs that are under a great deal of stress, not knowing whether their jobs are secure or not. In fact I have said on many occasions in private conversations that I feel privileged to be in the profession I am as it is “safer”. I have family who have opted for voluntary redundancy in the last few weeks and also have friends who were made redundant a week before Christmas……so please be reassured that I do not feel hard done by, and I am realistic.
My comments were made just to justify what I do to those who felt obliged to give their own opinions on what they thought I did/didn’t do.
Please remember that if you had not had inspirational teachers you would not be writing with the intelligence and fluency that you do.
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Ab (14) If the UK is so great then go there! I will give my kids the best education by sending them to private school.
Dear Ab,
If this dispute is not resolved soon I will expect to see you and your family down at the Elizabeth Terminal on your way to a better life and education in the UK. Good luck to you. Higher taxes and higher school fees, but if that is what you want, go!
All Jersey teachers, bar a very few, are States of Jersey teachers, all on the same pay scale.
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#100 Honey (this isn’t a criticism of Jonty in anyway) I just read it as a straightforward statement of what it is you do with your day and the choices and sacrifices you have made. How much you love your job really comes across, it’s good to hear and it made me smile.
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Honey, at least your post was honest and heartfelt, even if I don’t necessarily agree with all of it. It restored my faith in a profession that produced the likes of another teacher poster, Mick whose sneering, sarcastic tone against the rest of the world (and they all work in finance, in his universe…)does the profession no good whatsoever. He took me right back to some of the arrogant, patronising individuals who taught me 30 years ago. You reminded me that there were, indeed, inspirational teachers as well. Cyd Le Bail rocked!!
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100. Honey
A beautifully written comment and as Farmer Geddon (108) stated, your post came across as sincere and heartfelt.
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You are more than welcome.
GCSE coursework now looks more appealing. It will be completed by the weekend!
Cyd Le Bail did rock Farmer Geddon – I too was lucky enough to be inspired by him
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Yup, good on you Honey; lovely posts. Your benevolence shines through as does the fact that you are no doubt an incredibly hard working and effective teacher.
You’re still getting your pay cut, however. And don’t expect your conditions of service to improve any time soon. You will still be labelled ‘greedy’ along with the rest of your profession. And you will still be pointed to the harbour should you raise any more objections about any of the above.
So for every one of you lovely teachers out there prepared to simply put up with this state of affairs there will be one like me who is prepared to fire back with gusto at the likes of some of the posters here…before heading back to the classroom in a week’s time to help their students conclude a successful year of learning.
btw my comments are ALWAYS aimed at the individuals to whom I am responding; Farmer Geddon’s claim that I appear to be sneering at ‘rest of the world’ is utterly false.
Honest and heartfelt needn’t always mean cosy, pal.
Mick
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@ BSDeluxe post 68
8:45 start and 5pm finish?
Where did you get that from? Will mention that to my Mrs when she is in at 7.30 most mornings, will mention it to her again when she is marking books at 9pm.
10 hour day? wow! I think you will find that is the norm in most professions now, not the the important, heady, mighty world of “Finance”.
Remember that your Johnny big potato colleagues coined the phrase “Lunch is for wimps”
Whatever I think about what is going on with the current situation, there is so much rubbish spouted in the comments above by people who as previously stated, have not been in a classroom in 20 years.
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I support my Union and will be active with my support, but as you say Mick, will carry on next week and in the future whatever the conclusion re pay.
As for the “you know when the next boat is…………”, this would never be a temptation. As a Jersey girl with children of her own now, I know that despite what you read in the JEP Jersey is a great place to grow up, due to its safety and its education (even in the States Sector, where my children attend
), so thanks, but no thanks.
Great to think I am a “lovely” teacher Mick…..wonder how many of my “lovely” students would agree!
Honey
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Once again i say…
1. There is no guaranteed 4% pay rise… if there was, believe me, all of the Unions would have said YES THANK YOU immediately.
2. If I pay 6% of my Salary into a Pension Fund… why is that a stick to beat me with? Its money that is part of my salary that I am forced to pay into a pension… that’s probably a good thing as if i was in the private sector, i would see it as a deduction… but its not. It planning for my future… And if the government mishandles that fund, then why should they not rectify it? Its not my fault that government mishandled the pot? But that’s not an unusual story in jersey is it? Government mishandling the money they are entrusted with…
3. The Teacher Scales are not secret…. google them. But while you are there, remember to google the average house price in Jersey with the average house price in UK (including and excluding london). And don’t forget to google the comparison basket of food, and petrol. Absolute Values mean nothing, it is the relative value of the salary that is important… but as Disraeli said… Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics… so make sure your Stats are good….
4. While you are google the salaries, google the terms and conditions of UK and Jersey Teachers…
5. Another comment raised the question of why we have waited until now… well, we have had arguments with our employer every year. However, the difference is that these fights have been resolved because they negotiated with us. We didn’t get what we wanted and they didn’t get what they wanted, but both sides accepted that compromise was necessary.
This year is different. The employer decided not to talk to us. They decided to not negotiate.
I’m sorry if that means that we are ingrats…. what it really means is that we are taking a stand.
The comments on here show the level of appreciation that teachers should expect. When i was a student, i never would have raised my voice or said NO to a teacher. IT would have been a clip around the ear there and then another at home from my parents.
These days, the level of abuse that teachers are expected to put up with when in any other situation, the “customer” would be told to leave and not return…
I can see from comments here that if the Children of certain posters came home and said “hey, I’m going to be a teacher”, then there would be disappointment.
Until Teachers (all of whom are degree educated, many of whom are Masters Educated and some are PhD educated) are seen by the public (or should that read Private Sector) as necessary, the education system will not be fixed. Forget about the wish list that was put to the government…
My hope is that anyone who has been critical of teachers thinks – “What have the teachers done for my child”.
@Kate 102 – yes, the protest is on a Saturday. It won’t affect OUR students. I have seen parents take less interest in their children than they do in their own work. Sometimes, I feel that their grades are a reflection of the partnership that we have forged…
If you doubt the sincerity of teachers towards OUR STUDENTS, then you don’t know any teachers. Try getting to know one and actually find out what the dispute is about.
And remember, sometimes you have to stand up and do something… not because its popular, but because its the right thing to do!
This is definitely one of those times.
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St Helier – Don’t the public have to contribute 15% to your pension?
What about our right to negotiate?
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These teachers deserve the boot! Understandable when there is clear unfairness, but here we have teachers, unlike everyone else, unwilling wo pull in their belts. Opportunism, which is only going to backfire on their reputations.
It isn’t like the teaching quality in Jersey is any good anyhow – so why should I pay for incompetence and layabouts prepared to go on strike?
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It isn’t just teachers who are unable to have a holiday every year – I have only just had to postpone my three business class tickets to Florida to February of next year!!!!
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Perhaps you poor put upon teachers need a bit of what jersey post employee’s are looking forward to. A 24% pay cut in some instances. I think they would love just to accept no rise for 1 year!!
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112 Mike
“8:45 start and 5pm finish?
Where did you get that from?”
Well, if you read my post properly you may note that it was in response to Mick @55′s comment. Incidentally, he is a teacher!
“rubbish spouted in the comments above by people who as previously stated, have not been in a classroom in 20 years”
….which would also include you!
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Sanity 115.
I may be wrong however
The states of jersey do pay into the teachers pension fund. It should be at an equel rate to the payment that the teachers pay into their pension pot. However due to financial missmanagement by the states they have failed to fullfil their oblightion for a number of years and therefore there is a deficit that they are having to make up by paying a higher pecentage over the next few years.
This is the same with all the puplic sector pensions. It is yet another example of the States of Jersey letting down it’s employees.
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Martin 11: we pay fees to banks, insurance companies, gas, elcetricity etc… all the time for the services that they provide: much of which goes to ridiculous profits and their employees pay. Not once would I request to know how much the people at my bank earn, their holiday times, pensions health info etc… 14: are you stupid?!!! private teachers are seeking the same pay deal you snob.
Why must we bow down and be walked over with no rights to negotiate because we work in the public sector? The people who have in that past received bonuses in the private sector have completeley forgotton about how their greed and taken for granted approach might effect the economy now.
AND 1300? get some education then, a good one that you pay for and then you can get and deserve a well paid job.
If you want a house building, and pay a low price expect a poor quality house.If you expect good service, pay the price. This island needs to get its priorities right and forget about steam clocks that break and bronze toads!
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JDG – Perhaps we should negotiate with the teaching unions as to how much we should deduct from the Teachers pay to cover ever bodies pension to the same amount.
Or is the right to negotiate just one sided in favour of the teachers?
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Here’s an idea – more work for more pay …
Teachers can work an extra 6 weeks/year and do basic childcare for my kids, so I don’t have to pay while they enjoy 12 weeks off per year.
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“we pay fees to banks, insurance companies, gas, elcetricity etc… all the time for the services that they provide: much of which goes to ridiculous profits and their employees pay. Not once would I request to know how much the people at my bank earn, their holiday times, pensions health info etc”
The difference is that in most cases you have CHOSEN to use those services and so you have no right to know what they earn….whereas we, the taxpayer, have NO CHOICE in paying your wages so the least we expect is to know how much we are paying to ensure value for money!
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Sorry…my post 124 was directed at tom @ 121.
Furthermore tom, these service providers you pay for are businesses and therefore exist to make a profit. Teachers are public servants.
BTW your grammar & spelling is appalling (whether or not you are an english teacher is irrelevant).
Maybe it is you that needs to “get some education then” teach!
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I have to say I am astounded at the poor grammatical skills and lack of reality some teachers are showing on this forum.
Your attitudes are doing very little to sway public opinion in your favour. In fact, you are probably doing more damage than good by responding on these forums because you are simply confirming many of the opinions we already have of you teachers.
Honey aside, the likes of Mick and tom have offered nothing for the public to be sympathetic about!
It’s no wonder the kids are leaving school with very poor, basic, academic skills these days!
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Here’s another one for the Jersey Handbook of Useful Emotive Phrases:
“The likes of…”
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Hello Matt,
“Here’s an idea – more work for more pay”…….please be reassured that :
(1) If you were to go into a school during the holidays you would find a large number of teachers, in their rooms, preparing for the following term. Those in the secondary sector are this Easter offering examination and revision sessions as well as offering coursework catch up for those who may have fallen behind for whatever reason.
(2) If they are lucky enough to have this time off, but have children of their own to look after, they are working evenings to make sure that they are fully prepared to teach your children in the coming weeks.
“Teachers can work an extra 6 weeks/year and do basic childcare for my kids, so I don’t have to pay while they enjoy 12 weeks off per year.”
(1) We all make choices in our lives, the professions that we want to work in and whether we have a family. I, as well as having the two children of my own, help out my friends and family who are out at work by looking after their children during school holidays.
(2) You have the option of removing your children from school (although this is not recommended by the Education Department) during term time so that you can take your family on holiday at a cheaper rate. If we go away we always pay over the odds. I do not begrudge this, as I said earlier, we choose our profession and our lifestyle – I knew this when I made my choices.
(3) I am sure that, if I added up all of the extra hours, in the evenings that I do both within term time and during the holidays it would add up to at least the extra six weeks per year you are requesting. My husband used to be of the same view as you before we met. He now gets very angry when people pull this one out of the bag. Time spent on the laptop, is after all, not time spent with him!
Hello BS Deluxe
“It’s no wonder the kids are leaving school with very poor, basic, academic skills these days!”
Over 95% of the students that left the school I teach at last academic year left to go onto further education, many of which will in two years go on to university. I agree that there appear to be more students with learning difficulties in school then when I was a student, however, teachers cannot be fully responsible for this. We, as parents, also have a responsibility to make sure we do our best as parents with our children to make sure we support them throughout their education to ensure that they reach their full potential and are able to follow their dreams into adulthood. Education is a partnership, one that works to its best when the student, the parents and the schools work together as a team.
Honey
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BS Deluxe
You appear to me to be little more than a trumped up troll, your comments on this and many other threads serving as little more than inflammatory rags waved in the faces of those attempting to provide answers to questions posed by other posters.
Pretty much ALL of your posts end with some kind of insult designed to offend and goad. Looking back I see that much of my spleen (for which I apologise to any I have offended) has been caused by some of your more barbed comments. I should really have known better than to lean over the bridge and start shouting at you.
You don’t even make sense. Your last comment suggests that the fact myself and another poster have provided you with little to feel ‘sympathetic’ about has a direct bearing on the quality of children’s education these days.
Another inflammatory mark designed to insult a) all teachers and b) the island’s youth.
What purpose does your post hold? What point are you making? You are merely attacking for the sake of attack – pure Troll activity.
Your moniker says it all – B*** S*** Deluxe indeed.
Mick
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Perhaps people who support teachers aren’t teachers! Im not, but thankyou for pointing out my dyslexia.
Thats the problem with society today, the lack of respect and derogatory way the public view people who work very hard and get abused on a daily basis and regularly go above and beyond for their profession and the students.
If people dont like the service that the teachers in Jersey provide perhaps they should home school and teach their little darlings themselves. After all, its so easy.
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At BS Deluxe post 119
I would imagine he is one of the few who start and finish at these times. Oh and I will mention how easy she has it when she gets back from school over the last few days. Oh hang on its Easter hols…..exactly.
I notice you dont really answer all points, just how hard done by you are.
You will find I have been in a classroom in the last 20 years, being married to a teacher, you generally have to help out. So you are wrong on that count.
There are good and bad and lazy in all professions, the sweeping statements made in here are laughable.
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Having just read Micks latest post I am inclined to agree that BSDeluxe is in fact trolling.
Classic troll traits include inflammatory comments, personal attacks and not answering any points.
JTM?
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