Call to tighten Island’s gun laws
Friday 4th June 2010, 2:59PM BST.
Jim Rigby fears that what happened in Whitehaven this week could happen in Jersey if the laws are not changed.
A FORMER Centenier and gun officer who warned that Jersey could become the scene of another Dunblane massacre has repeated his concerns about the Island’s gun laws in the wake of this week’s Cumbria shootings.
Jim Rigby (71) says that the Island’s laws should be tightened to restrict the amount of ammunition that gun owners can hold in their homes, and that responsibility for gun control should pass to the States police, not honorary officers.
He has also called for ‘a sensible discussion’ on gun control.
However, Home Affairs Minister Ian Le Marquand has defended Jersey’s gun laws, saying that
they are tougher than the UK’s, which in turn are tougher than most other countries. Unlike the UK, Jersey requires licences for air guns, but the Island did not follow the UK in adopting a full ban on handguns.
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There are certainly a lot of unhinged people in Jersey. Let’s hope none of them have access to guns.
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I would question why anyone would need to own a gun in any circumstance. If an enthusiast who enjoys playing cowboys and indians with like minded adults then why can’t he play with a replica?
The fact is that the more people who have access to guns the greater the possibility of the type of tragedy that has just afflicted the UK happening, it’s simple statistics.
Ban all guns except those owned by the police and armed forces – full stop. It’s a lot harder for some loony to kill a dozen people with a baseball bat than a gun.
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kneejerk reaction.
most gun owners are sane folk.
its when people loose the plot, that is the problem.
don’t need a gun , a determined nutter, could trawl the internet and no doubt , find a method of dispatching, a good number of people in one go.
even the most level headed amongst us , could flip, with todays pressures of living.
look at the chap in the michel douglas movie “falling down”.
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Tighter control than the UK as per Le Marquand – Airguns bad, handguns good?
You couldn’t make it up.
Why not do as suggested, all ammunition stored elsewhere (e.g. in a gun club under double key control)?
That would work.
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Mulvie,
I enjoy my sport, and just like any other sport I like the variety and the choice of the tools I wish to use.
I like many others have keen interest in firearms and the ability to own them is just like for anyone who has a passion, a joy to be able to do!
A total ban is a pointless exercise, it is statistically proven than any country that has banned firearms still has and in many cases has an increased illegal use of firearms.
If you wish to argue this point, please contact Derek Bernard of the Jersey pistol club who im sure will be more than happy to show you 31 years worth of research to this point!
Mr Rigby, why ban handguns as the article suggests should of been done. I see since the ban the uk’s handgun crime has dropped. Oh actually it hasn’t has it. When was the last handgun related death in Jersey?
Ammo is already limited for most people who are not competitive shoots in that calibre, there is however:
A) only so much ammo someone can carry/ load in to a gun and spare mags.
B) only so much time to use it before people start running away.
C) only so much until the Armed response unit find you.
What happened in Cumbria is awful, but don’t blame the firearms for it.
This man had a total psychotic break down. If he hadn’t had access to his firearms, what would he of used, a knife? would he of just bought guns illegally? maybe he might of gone completely nuts and made a bomb? Could of just driven down a crowded street in his taxi!
Knee jerk reactions and scaremongering will not solve things.
Maybe cross referencing medical records is the way to go.
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The UK has and I quote everyone from poloticians to the BBC ‘Some of the toughest gun laws in the world’. Please note the rise in gun crime over the last few years in UK, wit unlicensed firearms. Make owning guns a crime, only criminals will have them. Just waiting for the new bunch in Westminster to get the ‘Sun says!’ syndrome and another load of stupid un workable badly drfted laws making instant criminals of law abiding people.
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This is crazy, utterly crazy.
Mulvie – Are you kidding? You cant just ban all guns because they COULD be used for crime. They are also used for sport in Jersey every day.
Did you know every parish in Jersey has a gun range? (excluding St Clement)
I was in a .22 rifle club and shot at them all.
There are matches every week. We home some of the UK’s top shots who go to the UK and europe to compete and I have not even started on the Shotgun and pistol clubs who are also thriving.
You also cant really put a limit on the amount of ammo a gun user can keep. If I was still shooting .22 and I had a practise and a match on one weekend I would need up to 60 rounds to be on the safe side.
Keep the gun laws as they are. Currently I believe you need a gun cabinet, a license and a police officer to inspect your weapon and cabinet before you can keep a gun at home. You can then be subject to random inspections without notice.
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If Ian Le Marquand thinks Jersey’s gun laws are tougher than in the U.K. God help us.
In Jersey you can possess a revolver or semi-automatic pistol, in the U.K. these are prohibited. In Jersey you can possess a semi-automatic or pump action rifle, in the U.K. these are prohibited.
In Jersey you can possess an air weapon with over 12 ft lbs kinetic energy without a licence, in the U.K. you must have a licence to possess such a weapon.
So Mr. Le Marquand, what makes you think Jersey’s laws are more stringent than those in the U.K.?
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There are several gun clubs in Jersey, all run by responsible people and whose membership is vetted by the clubs and known to the authorities. Jersey shooters are world class and represent Great Britain in international events and long may that continue.
Of course it is tragic when an incident such as the one in Cumbria takes place, however, 1 man going berserk from a population of 56 million should not be used as an excuse to ban guns or tighten the already strict controls in Jersey.
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Since when did increased bureaucracy prevent anti social behaviour?
If you ban all guns, then only people of a criminal mindset who want to shoot people will be armed…. what does that achieve?
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More scare mongering rubbish. How does this stuff get ink time?
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Thankfully very very few nutcases intent on mayhem have access to guns but what would stop them using a Car or knife as a weapon with equally deadly consequences,
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In Victorian times, a very large proportion of the population not only owned a gun, but carried it around with them. Gun crime was extraordinarily rare – arguably because anybody contemplating shooting someone knew there was a pretty strong chance that their intended victim would be equipped to defend him/herself.
Banning all guns, or further increasing the bureaucracy of gun control, sounds great, until you consider a couple of relevant facts:
1. In every country in the world which has acted according to that principle, greater controls have immediately been followed by a very significant, and lasting, increase in gun crime.
2. Ever-tighter gun-controls are very effective in dissuading law-abiding people, especially sporting shooters, from owning guns. They have absolutely no effect, in terms of the stated aim of preventing criminals from owning guns – since violent criminals are really not over-bothered about regulations and licences, and don’t have the slightest difficulty obtaining a gun when they want one.
3. Vastly more people are killed each year with kitchen knives, than with guns. The appropriate response, according to the wishful-thinking approach, would surely be to impose strict controls on the ownership of kitchen knives, or public access to kitchens – or to ban both altogether.
If the three facts listed above were not true, sporting shooters would not hesitate to support a totally restrictive regime, for the good of all. But the fact is that such a regime offers no protection against either criminal behaviour or insanity – and all the statistics, worldwide, going back a hundred years, show that greater restriction has always made the situation worse, not better.
If ever there was an issue which demanded a rational approach, it is this one. Traditionally, however, the approach of governments has been to placate prejudice, rather than to make decisions based on the facts.
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A mate of mine owns a gun, been with him to shoot clay pigeons. Was great fun albeit I was a bit shaky on the first shot knowing I had something potentially lethal in my hands but it was a well run afternoon. Hit some clays so was happy, we all went home. My mate who owns his own gun gave back all unused shells and was refunded for them. All guns were checked immediately after firing to ensure no shells (or maybe it’s called cartridges) were left in the guns.
All in all a fun day out, only one person had control of all the bullets/shells/cartridges whatever they are called.
Criminals will be criminals, nutters will be nutters you cant pigeon hole everyone who owns a gun.
What I did gain from my experience is that no one should be allowed to take their ammo home and thats all I believe needs to be addressed, if anything.
By the way what happened to le marquands tough stance on knife crime, ah I forgot, so did he!
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Chris Pace said:
‘A total ban is a pointless exercise, it is statistically proven than any country that has banned firearms still has and in many cases has an increased illegal use of firearms.’
Hmmm… if you ban firearms there is an increased ilegal use of firemans.. err is that because they are all banned & therefore all illegal?
‘B) only so much time to use it before people start running away.
C) only so much until the Armed response unit find you.’
12 dead in Cumbria, 15 Dunblaine & 16 in Hungerford. How much time are you suggesting is ‘only’ too much time?
‘If he hadn’t had access to his firearms, what would he of used, a knife?’.
When was the last time you saw a headline where a crazed knifeman killed 10 plus people?
And you own a gun – Lord preserve us…
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@ #8 Hugh Janus
You are wrong about the law regarding air rifles.
In the UK you can own a rifle under 12 foot pounds without a licence. In Jersey you would need a full firearms licence for such a rifle.
..and it’s not an air “weapon”. It’s an air rifle, or air gun.
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The shooting sports are the most disciplined of all sports. More people, sadly, have been killed at football matches. At Hilsborough more people were killed than Dunblane,Hungerford, and Cumbria put together. Are we to ban soccer? No of course not.Do we imprison anyone that looks like an Arab of course we do not.It is one of the many downsides of this wonderful world that we live in that we encounter such heart rendering tragedies.
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wherever there are guns,there’ll be shooting….by the same token you can buy a kitchen knife with a long sharp blade in many shops,the anger is in the user not the weapon…..a non stop diet of T.V. violence,encouraged debt,alcohol and other drugs illicit and prescribed,dumbing down and lowering of standards by so called leaders who have forgotten if they ever knew that good leadership and citizenship is by example not decree…..what else could it possibly be.
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#8 Hugh Janus
In Jersey you can possess an air weapon with over 12 ft lbs kinetic energy without a licence, in the U.K. you must have a licence to possess such a weapon.
As an air rifle shooter i can tell you that in Jersey you need a firearm certificate for any airgun,regardless of the power.In order to get my firearm certificate,i had to be police checked and the constable came round to my house and checked to see where my gun cupboard was,even though i keep it at the range.Rifles over 12ft lbs are used for field target(which there is no field target range over here that i’m aware of),or for hunting/pest control and i believe you have to prove you have the land owners permission and a legitimate purpose to own one(i.e work on a farm/pest controller,etc).
My air rifle is under 12ft lbs and is used for target shooting indoors at 10 metres and in the uk, and guernsey for that matter you don’t need any type of license for this type of air rifle.
If you know someone with an air rifle that doesn’t have a firearm certificate, i’m pretty sure the police would be interested!
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Pardon me for stating the obvious but..Was he licensed to kill his relatives/legal advisor/friends etc. No he was not! So where did a license fit into this particular equation.
There is an answer . It gives something for politicians to latch on to so as to exhibit a righteous ego , then they look as if they have done something popular ,which must be right!
To be fair Ian Le Marquand wouldn’t say that. Why?
Because he never says anything that doesn’t take at least three counter-indicatory statements .
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Oh dear here we go again ! quick lets tighten up the gun laws as if there are not more important things to be done ie education. Whilst I feel very sorry for the victims and their families this is not a regular occurrence thankfully unlike knife crimes ! Shooting clubs in Jersey are amongst the best in the world the rules and regulations are very strict. I mean for goodness sack your more likely to get run over by a bus then shot ! More people die from knife wounds then gun shots so what we going to do then ban all knives ? Come on people get real we are not all gun touting lunatics. I think it would be far better to educate our children in the correct use of firearms if we have to do anything. Our shooting clubs over here have some very very talented young shooters some of who represent the island both home and away. They are all very responsible and don’t need extra regulations and more hoops to jump threw.
Also if you ban guns then you will only send then underground where they will be unmonitored and unregulated.
Please have some sense and stop this stupid madness.
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Channel News this evening reported that there are 12000 registered guns in Jersey and 2000 registered users, that number alone worries me. Thats an average of 6 guns each. I accept that for some people shooting guns is a sport but why do they need to be deadly? why not remove the ability to kill people and retain all other charachteristics of the tool. Unless you are a maniac that wants to have the ability to kill, why does the gun need to be a deadly weapon rathern than a piece of sporting equipment.
I would argue that if it is possible to render guns safe to enable them to shoot and function in every way as they currently do except they are not dangerous then the only people who would object to this are the maniacs.
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every parish has a gun??? now i have done one in my pants! what!! with all these mad beans and alcoholics and drug addicts about!
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Hugh Jeranus # 16. Thankyou for the update…..thank God I got rid of my old 1950s model Webley .22. The law has obviously changed since I owned it.
Notwithsanding my error over air rifles, I still don’t think Jersey’s gun laws are more stringent than in the U.K.
P.S. It’s nice to know there is someone huger (of exceedingly great size) then me.
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Less legislation more freedom of information.
Stop spending on these law reviews and adjustments that do nothing and invest in freedom of information.
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Guns don’t kill people rappers do, I seen it in a documentary on BBC 2.
But seriously. Gun’s actually don’t kill people it’s the person holding the gun that kills them. Banning guns is a solution to achieving nothing at all. Plus by that logic that some people have here we should call for a ban on knifes for every stabbing. Now I don’t know about anyone else here but I for one love shooting rabbits and using my knife to cut them up.
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Gun laws in Jersey laxer than in the UK? Really? Then can someone explain why I have to have my paintballgun on my firearms license? I cant recall the last serious death related incident from a painballgun!!
All flippancy aside whilst deaths from firearms are terribly sad and tragic, as has been stated by the sensible posters to this debate there is no need to go overboard yet again of the legislation and control of firearms and their responsible owners. If we must have these knee jerk reactions perhaps we could conduct a poll of all deaths in the last decade that did not occur of natural causes in this island. Once established maybe we should use the not inconsiderable resources and time into reducing those deaths rather than wasting it on yet another pointless gun debate.
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“Did you know every parish in Jersey has a gun range? (excluding St Clement)”
How about campaigning for one.
In Samares Lane, next to the gym club, perhaps?
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Interesting comment and terminology from No 1. Mental health issues abound in all places, many of which have gun laws which are not as strict as those in Jersey.
Can I ask, please, what statistics or other evidence you rely upon and what are your qualifications in mental health issue?
I agree though, with the view that it is to be hoped that troubled people do not have access to firearms, although that must apply anywhere, not just to Jersey.
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Jerry said:
‘Vastly more people are killed each year with kitchen knives, than with guns.’
I think that is due to the fact that there are more kitchen knives than guns in circulation.
If there were as many guns as kitchen knives then I think that it is a safe bet to say there much be more gun related killings than knife related.
It’s called logic ask someone to explain it to you some time.
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Jersey law allows you to own firearms that you cannot on the Mainlnd, such as handguns. The ‘law’ on the Mainland is quite simple, the bugbear is that most of it is ‘enabling’ legistation. This allow people such as The Secratary of State, ie whichever polotician is in post at the time with an eye to the voters, to vary things at will by the stroke of a pen.
As an aside the law on the Mainland was changed so that paintball guns could be sold, provided they were under 6lb/foot power with out restriction. the result was as I know to my personal hurt, being sniped at by six and seven year olds, whilst driving busses! In my case after being hit in the face by such a projectile whilst driving, two pasengers were hurt. Fortunatley no one killed, and no major damage to property. So as a result of such stupidity, making things that were illegal, legal, now there is Violent Crime Reduction Act, so if I want to buy a pice of wood that someone could mistake as a gun, I have to jump through all sorts of hoops. If I want to buy a De-Activated firearm, that is a real gun, machined so that it cannot ever fire ammunition again, all I need is cash. If you can work it out, please let me know.
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Do you know I thought with age came intelligence and a better insight into lifes ups and downs – rights and wrongs and above all the ability to have lived through most problems and therefore be able to advice wisely those that are a bit less experienced. The stance taken here by this 71 year old indicates thats not always so. Mr Rigby you plainly do not understand the situation and are part of the knee jerk reaction that has not changed the effect of law on someone who is mentaly deranged ever.
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No 1 & 3, these types of incidents are nothing to do with mental illness. You are far more at risk from someone experiencing the normal human emotions of jealousy, anger, fear, resentment than you are from a mentally ill person. Never mind that you wouldn’t have a gun licence if you’re mentally ill anyway (you do need to be medically signed off for firearms). The media (and some of the public) may like to brand every shooter like this mentally ill because it puts some ‘distance’ between them and such an event (i.e. it could never be them that behaves this way, they have nothing in common with the killer), but the fact is we are all more at risk of harm from the perfectly sane people that we call family or close friends. Human emotions make people kill far more than mental illness ever could, please don’t continue this erroneous stereotype. Goodness, if I wanted to make myself as safe as possible I’d choose to have more mentally ill people around me and less sane people, more often than not the mentally ill turn their emotions inwards.
No. 5 There is so far NO evidence that this man suffered any psychotic symptoms, in which case he did not suffer a psychotic breakdown. Even if by chance he did suffer a psychotic break recently it wouldn’t explain his behaviour. Symptoms of psychosis are hallucinations of a visual, auditory, olfactory, gustatory, tactile,… type, they are all based around our senses (nothing to do with emotions), and are all symptoms that many sufferers simply live with really quite well on a day to day basis. Then there are delusions, again these are usually of a form where the anger is turned inwards, or of a grandiose form (grandiose tends more to be exciting than persecutory), not of a form where someone will pick up a gun and shoot others.
What does explain his behaviour very well are the simple human emotions of anger, hatred, jealousy and fear. When these perfectly normal emotions reach extreme levels THAT is really when people are a danger to others.
People, please stop peddling these ridiculous stereotypes about mental illness, they have been disproven time and time again. We are all capable of doing great harm to others, we choose not to! The minute we fail to realise that we are actually capable of doing such harm is when we do become a danger to others because we stop moderating our behaviour!
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I don’t understand why people have to keep guns and ammunition on their property, as it seems to be an accident waiting to happen to me!
I think the police should keep all guns under lock and key and only allow certain people to use them after strict checks are done, otherwise another tragedy like Cumbria will most probably happen one day!
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Leah,
Point taken and I apologise for using that term out of context.
I would like to point out the following to all those that think the police are the only people that should have firearms.
The more recent ones.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8515712.stm
http://www.inthenews.co.uk/news/business/police-fined-40k-as-officer-shoots-colleague-$1329431.htm
http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/News/Metro/5439182-147/Police_officer_shoots_colleague.csp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/5242564.stm
These are a just a few shootings by so called safe a responsible people.
Its then all too easy to start picking out the military ones.
“I think the police should keep all guns under lock and key and only allow certain people to use them after strict checks are done, otherwise another tragedy like Cumbria will most probably happen one day!”
I have to ask the question, what happens when the person in charge of the centrally held weapons decides to have a moment of unbalanced clarity.
The fact remains, if someone wishes to cause their fellow man harm, guns or not they will do it!
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He’s not that bloke off Rising Damp, is he?
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Wiser men than me, have said it much better than I could…
“People who object to weapons aren’t abolishing violence, they’re begging for rule by brute force, when the biggest, strongest animals among men were always automatically ‘right.’ Guns ended that, and social democracy is a hollow farce without an armed populace to make it work.” L. Neil Smith; The Probability Broach
“And I cannot see, why arms should be denied to any man who is not a slave, since they are the only true badges of liberty.” Andrew Fletcher; A Discourse of Government with Relation to Militias, 1737
“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” Cesare Beccaria, On Crimes and Punishment
“The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave. He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion.” James Burgh, (1714-1775); “Political Disquisitions: Or, an Enquiry into Public Errors, Defects, and Abuses” (London, 1774-1775)
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Evidence that knives can be just as effective – once the government removes the citizen’s ability to protect themslves…
March
23 – Zheng Minsheng 42, killed eight with a knife in an elementary school in Nanping, Fujian province, China.
April
28 – Just a few hours after the execution of Zheng Minsheng, in Leizhou, Guangdong another knife-wielding man at a different elementary school wounded 16 students and a teacher.
29 – in Taixing, Jiangsu, 47-year-old Xu Yuyuan went to a kindergarten and stabbed 28 students, two teachers and one security guard;most of the students were 4 years old.
30 – Wang Yonglai used a hammer to cause head injuries to preschool children in Weifang, Shandong, then used gasoline to commit suicide by self-immolation.
May
12 – An attacker named Wu Huanming, 48, killed seven children and two adults and injured 11 other persons with a cleaver at a kindergarten in Hanzhong, Shaanxi. The attacker later committed suicide at his house.
18 – at Hainan Institute of Science and Technology, a vocational college in Haikou, Hainan, at least 5 men charged into a dormitory wielding knives at about 2:30 am and 9 students were injured, 1 seriously. The local men attacked the dorm in an act of revenge and retaliation against college students following conflict the previous day at an off-campus food stall in which 4 students were injured, for a total of 13.
Dead = 17
Wounded = 71
And not a gun in sight….
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If it wasn’t for guns we wouldn’t be where we are today!
I know this sounds weird to say but the gun was one of the biggest inventions ever, it lept us all forward in tecnology. We wouldn’t have half of what we do now if it wasn’t for gunpowder or the gun, We wouldn’t have gone to space in the 60s, we wouldnt have the car beacause it was gunpowder that started the combustion theory,
I know guns have a bad press, in fact the use of guns has dropped dramatically since the 50s 60s and 70s, Do people remember in the 60s and 70s Uk when bank robbing with automatic wepons was common place.
Yes there will always be people with a grudge, if its not a gun they can use they will find another form of weapon. Sad to say but true.
Whats even worse is the factories that make the guns are all goverment owned and sold by goverments! current numbers indicate there are 2 guns for every human on the planet! now thats scary.
the only way you can stop the use of fire arms is to stop the production and after 100 years it will be rare to find a gun that works, well maybe the AK47
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This subject comes up again and again. Jersey has always had a very lax outlook on Gun Licensing. How on earth can a “Constable” i.e an unpaid, untrained person grant a firearms licence? The answer is although the criminal checks for the issue of a Firearms certificate are done by the professional States of Jersey Police, the certificate is granted effectively by the Honorary Police Connetable.
As we all know most of what goes on regarding the antiquated Honorary system, needs reviewing. Their whole role needs to be relinquished and allow the trained professionals to do the job that the Centeniers and Connetables “play at” week in and week out!
I am fully aware that some gun collecters within the island have more ammunition stocks than the States of Jersey Police’s Firearms unit. Whyn is that i wonder? Are they going to defend the island when the next invasion takes place? Some “collecters” have over 150 different weapons at their home address. Im pretty sure you can only fire one at a time so why would you want 150?
Please do not ban firearms though. Its not the pistol, rifle or shotgun’s themselves that kill people. Its the person who pulls the trigger. Tighter control needs to be made on how many weapons and ammumition each person can have on their licence. All the States Police can do is make sure the applicant has no criminal record. They can make recomendations as to what weapons should be allowed but in the end the Connetable grants the licence. Lets the States of Jersey Police do the lot and let the Police Chief grant the licence. In that way he or she can stop people gaining access to weapons that you cannot even fire in Jersey as is already the case.
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Senator le Marquand is mistaken in that jerey laws are stricter, for instance in England automatic shot guns are banned and a winchester shot gun can have five cartridges loaded. In Jersey they are not and therefore a person over here would have been able to kill twice as many people without reloading.
There are some gun ethusiasts here that are theoretically licenced to hold thousands of of rounds of ammunition. Lets have a proper debate on the issue. tthey say its never happened herein Jersey. Thats what they said in whitehaven.
Jim Rigby
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Helen Back
“If it wasn’t for guns we wouldn’t be where we are today!”
Try telling that to the indigenous North Americans and multitude of other peoples who have been wiped out by the sacred gun!
The gun has no other purpose but to kill or at the very least maim.
I would imagine the use of guns in bank robberies has decreased because it goes hand in hand with the increase in electronic crime. It is easier to rob a bank by hacking into client records or cloning identities these days.
However, you may notice that gun crime, particularly used in gang murders, serial killings, spree killings etc, has increased drastically since the 50′s, 60′s & 70′s…..as has knife crime.
I am not one to lobby for the banning of guns because some psycho has gone mad, but why is there a need to use “live” ammunition for sport?
I’m sure with advanced technology today they can create a harmless alternative for the shooting enthusiasts….for heaven’s sake we can clone humans and create synthetic life…a harmless bullet should be child’s play!
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“However, you may notice that gun crime, particularly used in gang murders, serial killings, spree killings etc, has increased drastically since the 50’s, 60’s & 70’s…..as has knife crime.”
BS Deluxe may be correct, but if you strip out gang related crime then actually the proportion has been and remains very low. Crackheads shoot each other over who owns the corners – was ever thus. If Jersey wants to keep crime low what it should do is keep known criminals out. Its not exactly complicated.
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It could be equally argued that if more people had had guns this latest nutter would himself have been shot before he managed to kill so many. Indeed the news has reported that three unarmed police officers had to back off when threatened. After so much resent discussion and time devoted to guns laws by the States, gun clubs and other interested bodies what does Mr Rigby expect to gain from even more discussion? Sorry, just another has been who is missing the spot light and seeks to take advantage of this very tragic and sad event for a bit of publicity. It has probably escaped notice but the States have some very big problems ahead which needs their urgent attention – as well as being asked to make the tea and set up a cleaning rota.
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More people are killed every week through drink and drugs so why is alcohol not banned? my son is 16 has been shooting .22 rifle for the last 4 years it keeps him off the streets gives him something to do for 3 evenings a week in the season and it has also increased his social friend base, take that away from him and what will he do? stand on street corners and be a burden on society?
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#35 Cheers Chris, you caught me having just had an earful of TV stations giving it “mental illness this, mental illness that,…”. It can’t help that the words are so similar, but psychopathy is a combination of very unpleasant personality traits, where psychosis is a disturbance of the brain’s normal function. There is no medication to treat psychopathy and, unsurprisingly, prisons are full of people who meet the criteria for being classified as psychopaths.
The main concern for mentally ill people holding gun licences is suicide rather than homicide.
Totally agree with your post at 35 though. I had a friend in the Armed Response Unit and the situations they got called out to were unbelievable, 3 were men who found they couldn’t pull the trigger on themselves and waved a gun around in the hope that ARU would shoot to kill!
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Donald Pond
That’s only half the battle….how does a “known” criminal become “known”….they were all first offenders once!!
Just because someone doesn’t have a criminal record it doesn’t make them any safer if in control of a firearm…….many a serial offender has committed several crimes before eventually noticed and caught.
In my opinion there is no room for live ammunition in sports…..this is only intended for killing and should remain with the forces.
As Chris Rock once said….it’s not the guns that are the problem it’s the bullets. If we made the bullets so expensive to buy then if anyone got shot you know they’d deserved it because it would have cost the shooter a fortune (or somethinbg along those lines).
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….if bullets were so damn expensive to buy then there’d be no more innocent bystanders because the shooter would take extra care to make their target.
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Over 3000 dead on 9/11 lets ban aircraft
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Sanity
“It could be equally argued that if more people had had guns this latest nutter would himself have been shot before he managed to kill so many”
You’ve given me visions of a society akin to the wild west!
On the other hand, if we had armed police patrols and officers on the beat this would perhaps reduce the threat too……rather than arming potentially untrained (or unstable)civilians.
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Mick 45
The difference is people kill THEMSELVES through drink and drugs…..not innocent bystanders.
Why are you always so dramatic?
Last time I looked shooting was not the only activity in existence.
There are plenty of alternatives for your son if lethal firearms were (rightly) banned so he wouldn’t need to hang around street corners….unless, of course, that is how you intend to bring him up!
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I dont care if we dont win gold medals for shooting in sport,
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‘There are plenty of alternatives for your son if lethal firearms were (rightly) banned so he wouldn’t need to hang around street corners’
Hear, hear, BSD.
Jersey is full of wonderful recreational opportunities for young and old alike. When they have exhausted all the local opportunities then they can travel and broaden their minds, once they’ve earned some money.
No need to hang around in Jersey, let alone street corners.
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51,
Two words for you, DRINK DRIVING! Of course they just kill them selfs!
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In Switzerland, as a matter of law, every man has to have a gun. They don’t seem to have a huge gun problem.
I used to think that guns were bad and should be banned but that way the only people with guns are criminals and guns become an object of desire and status, rather than a rather simple but powerful tool to be respected.
You can’t have too many guns, in my opinion.
As we see everyday with drugs, banning things doesn’t work: it just drives the profit into hands of criminals.
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#49 Mick, better ban homes as well, lots of people die due to accidents in the home.
Of course we could start work on a better, fairer, kinder society where people have more respect for each other and for the sanctity of life, might cut the murder rate.
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Criminals have guns so maybe we all should otherwise we are at a disadvantage.
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Chris Pace @ 54
……Yes, you are correct, but drink driving is already banned!!
Please keep up with the discussion
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Im keeping up perfectly well.
I know drink driving is banned, so is shooting some one. Banning it doesn’t automatically stop it from happening.
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#41 Mr Rigby, to be held on the mainland on a Section 3 Shotgun certificate a firearm may have no more than three rounds loaded at any time. So a pump gun or bolt action shotgun having one round in the breech and two in a magazine. You are however incorect to say that an ‘Automatic’, by which I belive you mean a ‘Semi automatic or ‘Self Loading’ shotgun (technicalities in this matter are vital) cannot be owned. The criteria is that any shotgun with a capacity of more than three rounds is a Section 1 firearm, and requires a firearms certificate. As a point of intrest, one 20th century head of state did come to power with the banning of all privatley owned firearms in his manifsto, a certain Mr A. Hitler.
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#58 “but drink driving is already banned!! Please keep up with the discussion”
Indeed, and so is shooting people. The discussion is about whether those problems are solved by attempting to ban guns, or cars.
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I find it completely ludicrous that there are those on this discussion forum calling for the banning of sport/target shooting. What a great idea, take away a sporting institution because of the offchance that of the hundreds of perfectly safe and sane local sports shooters we have on this island they might, just might mind you have a moment of madness and decide to go on the rampage. Having been a member of the St Johns small bore rifle club since I left the British Army I can tell you that it is one of the most enjoyable ways of spending time with other like minded individuals that I could care to mention. The clubs involved adhere to an incredibly strict and safe attitude to all firearms and ammunition carried on their premises and it is a fantastic opportunity to teach young adults a safe and responsible attitude towards firearms. All of the members of these clubs take their responsibilities very seriously indeed and it would be a great shame and to much detriment if these institutions were closed down because of a few individuals with a what if complex.
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Tony B:
Thank for the insight about Hitler. It is always worth noting that the impulse to ban things is the start of the road that leads to genocide. I would also add that vegetarianism is the start of facism.
Everyone should have a gun, and a fishing rod. If we had to kill our own food we would respect it, the environment, and the sanctity of life much more.
I won’t buy tofu and I won’t kill anyone because of their race. It makes me sick that people think I’m a wierdo.
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“Indeed, and so is shooting people. The discussion is about whether those problems are solved by attempting to ban guns, or cars.”
Its people.
Get the right people from the start and you don’t need to start banning stuff.
THINK OF THE SAVINGS!!!
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60 – Tony B – mention of Hitler = you lost the discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin‘s_law
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What do we ban next? Paintball?
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I think the main question here is what is to stop anyone with a weapon (including armed police) suffering from stress and going on a psychotic rampage?
There appears to be no real identifiable method of stopping this sort of thing happen. Yes they can restrict the gun laws, making it more difficult for people to get access to guns and cartridges, and possibly carry out yearly mental health checks on the owners. I doubt though that this would stop a ‘madman’.
A total ban on guns wouldnt work either.
Guns are here to stay Im afraid.
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Jerry & Chris Pace
No….really….keep up with the discussion!!
My original point was in response to Mick saying alcohol should be banned because many people die from drinking…..drink driving was NOT mentioned.
It was Chris in his subsequent post (missing the point I was making) who mentioned drink driving.
Are you up to speed now?
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#68
It was BSDeluxe who asserted (post 51) that drinkers do not kill innocent bystanders. Chris correctly pointed out (as just one example) that drinkers do harm other people when they drive. He could have also mentioned drunken assaults.
BS Deluxe’s constant sneering tone does neither him, nor his argument, any credit.
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#67 I’ll refer you to my first post on this issue #33. Please do not continue the completely disproven (but popular belief because people are just media sheep) that these kind of crimes are due to mental illness, they aren’t. I can quote you study, after study, after study that proves that mentally ill people are no more likely to cause you harm than anyone else YET (and this is the key point) when mentally ill people are portrayed in the media 78% are portrayed as incredibly violent, the rest are portrayed as miserable! So, if you believe mentally ill people are more violent you are simply a media sheep!
FACT: Mentally ill people are NO more violent than anyone else.
Psychopaths are far more likely to be dangerous, but that is a personality disorder. It is NOT actually an illness (never mind a mental illness), and it cannot be treated! Psychopathy is part-genetic, part-environmental, and basically it just means you’re a really nasty person with a great ability to appear charming and to manipulate.
Psychosis (from which we get the word psychotic) and psychopathy mean two ENTIRELY different things. The first poses you no danger, the latter poses you a lot of danger.
For once can people get this through their heads and stop making life continually more difficult for mentally ill people who are already struggling enough without this utter nonsense being spouted about them? People can moan at me for going on about this, but this is a serious issue and public misconception continues to stop mentally ill people getting help, and some of those people end up killing themselves!
So what made Mr Bird kill? Probably the same as what makes most people kill… anger, hatred, jealousy, fear… ALL perfectly normal human emotions (not mental illnesses!)
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The question is not whether or not we should ban guns – the real question is; “What type of society do we live in?” Is it a society governed by every control seeking and fear mongering imbecile and their personal views – or one governed by universal principles of liberty and personal freedom?
Sadly, rational and reasoned discourse has given way to emotional, illogical, and unreasoned diatribe.
It is the individual’s right to decide how they live their life. Government is responsible for ensuring security of the person and property, and equal justice between individuals. It IS NOT the government’s role to preclude by force of law any choice which the individual is free to make regarding their own life. Any other view begins a descent down the slippery slope that leads to tyranny and oppression.
The English Bill of Rights (1689) recognised the citizen’s freedom “to have arms for their own defence”. Had the British citizenry of today prevented their government from removing this right, then the shooter in Cumbria would have been challenged by a responsible citizenry who exercised their rights and obligations within society, and been despatched at the Taxi rank – saving 9 lives. Knowing that his fellow citizens were ready, able, prepared, and lawfully entitled to meet his force with opposition in the protection of their lives; he may have made the choice to simply end his own life.
There will always be people who break the law and impose their will onto others or commit horrendous acts of violence – as there always have been. However, failing to recognise the inalienable right of each person to defend their life, and the lives of others, serves only to make us all slaves to the strongest among us and strips us all of our liberty. It returns us to the Dark Ages.
It seems that a large number of you are willing to dismiss the hundreds of thousands of lives lost in the struggle for our freedoms, rights, and democracy and freely give away those rights which cost us so dearly. And for what? A false belief that you will be more secure?
I heartily agree with Benjamin Franklin, when he said: “They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
I also hope that you’re all over 6′ tall, 20 stone, and have a serious right hook.
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Leah,
With respect, the public don’t really care about the minutiae of what a psycho / madman is.
Madman, personality disorder, psycho, mentally ill – it all means the same when someone takes a gun and kills innocent strangers…
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I guess you could also ban single men over 18 and below 99 from having guns as Hungerford, Dunblaine and Cumbrian shooters all fell into that category. Of just ban single men between those ages! Lets just thank our lucky stars that we don’t live in the land of the free where in 24 hrs virtually anyone can acquire a virtual arsenal of semi – automatics.
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#66 ‘What do we ban next? Paintball?’
Not a bad idea. Got to be one of the more asinine activites thought up in recent years.
Seriously, though, what bothers me is why quite so many people are so interested in owning, using or even knowing the intricacies of, guns.
Guns must surely rank amongst the most diabolical inventions and you would think by know that mankind would have progressed beyond wanting to use them for fun.
I, for one, lost interest in them when I was about ten or eleven and when on field day at school was more than happy to sell the use of mine to another boy who was too far back down the queue to be issued with one.
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Jerry
Please keep up….this is tiresome.
68 was BS Deluxe….i.e. ME.
You have taken my comments out of context and if you read the comments Mick originally made and my response….and take it in the context they were written then you may understand it better!
My tone was not sneering….and “constant”? Where do you get that from?
I would suggest if you get lost in a conversation or butt in half way through that you take a little time to get the full picture before making unfounded comments……it only makes you look silly
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BS DELUXE: I fully expect Jerry to post yet again, insisting that he knows, better than you do, what your words mean; that is, of course, his right – but we really will ultimately have to agree to disagree: I simply do not share (and no amount of hectoring or twisting of your words will make me share ) Jerry’s analysis of the situation, nor of his argument, nor of the best solution to any of the issues highlighted by this case – and therefore, no further reply will be forthcoming we hope. I hope that, at least, is clear.
Finally, having served on a number of appointments commissions, I’m afraid I don’t share his faith in their ability to necessarily make the wisest, or most ethically sound, decision. Quis custodiet custodies?
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#75 BS Deluxe (yes I CAN read who submitted a particular post – why does he keep assuming that anyone who doesn’t agree with him is a bit dim – perhaps his Mummy always told him he was the only one in step?) – whoops, he’s got me doing it now; but one can only take so much BS
1. I’ve followed this discussion from the beginning, and understand the posts quite adequately; the ‘context’ argument is pathetic, when BSD clearly and unequivocally stated, ‘Drinkers do not kill innocent bystanders’. Equally clearly, such an assertion is nonsense.
2. I get the ‘sneering’, and ‘constant’, from the fact that BS Deluxe is, erm, constantly sneering – where else? What else could one call this ‘Please keep up’ patronising BS?
3. This is an open forum. By definition, no-one can ‘butt in’. Not even the people who disagree with BS Deluxe.
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#72 So what you’re saying is the public are a complete bunch of morons? Well, no surprise there.
And the discintion I pointed out does matter, it matters because nonsense like that which you spouted costs lives. It is extremely difficult for people to admit to and get help for mental illness and for every one who doesn’t get help the risk of suicide is very real.
You may have a need to distance yourself from killers by calling them monsters (and yourself a human), or by claiming some illness caused them to do it (one that you don’t have of course), but fact is any one of us has the potential to do what they did given certain circumstances.
Good luck to the public anyway, while they fear mentally ill people they happily (and unwittingly) embrace psychopaths. Of course, when that person kills them we can just decide they were mentally ill after all can’t we? How pathetic.
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R B Bougourd #66
“Got to be one of the more asinine activites thought up in recent years.”
What does “asinine” mean? I can’t be bothered to look it up
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Jerry (wearily) I fail to see how you can translate, the drink driving argument– unless you have simply decided that your wilful misinterpretation is somehow more valid than the words which were actually used.
You have not attempted to ‘distance yourself’ from any previous comment. On each occasion, you have said, as clearly as you know how, that the conspiracy theorists tend to group the gun lobbyists with the drink drivers, and that this is a view which you can understand, and which has some rational basis – even though you don’t share that view. Again, you prefer your ‘translation’ to what you have actually said.
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#72 It was MANKIND that took their guns and killed innocent strangers, just plain, old, simple mankind. This public that “don’t really care about the minutiae” are 100% MANKIND! Guess that means they really should care.
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Leah,
I don’t see the point in trying to distinguish between mentally ill people and psychos / madmen. That is for the scientists, normal joe public are intelligent enough to, if really pushed, consider the diffrences, but when describing what happened it is quite fair to say he was a psycho / madman, because he was.
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#79 ‘What does “asinine” mean? I can’t be bothered to look it up’
-Things like paintball!
I can’t be bougourd to explain further (but I did look it up before using the word, to check that it was appropriate).
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Today, Nelson Mandela will not be attending the opening of the World Cup, because last night his great-grandaughter was killed by a man who had been drinking, driving his car. It is the person using the weapon, in this case a car, who is to blame not the gun, the knife ……
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Im not a gun fan nor am i a hater. its the classic old saying. Guns dont kill, people do.
Yes if you banned all guns then it would be impossible to go on a shooting spree, but when was the last murder in jersey? let alone a nutter going through town shooting people.
Anyway if i were that determined to go on a rampage i could just as easy have through king street in my car at 60mph! or throw a match into a petrol station or open up a stand giving away free icecreem but secretly ive poisoned it, that would get loads because everyone loves icecream!
If there aint a problem then dont try and fix it. The only people with guns are the sporting people and they respect the rules more then anyone as its them that will suffer if they dont.
The biggest threat in jersey is slipping on someones dropped kebab on your way to the taxi rank. or getting man handled by one of the “doormen” that have some serious small man syndrome. they are hillarious. they hate anyone bigger then them
whilst were on the subject of small people can we have some sort of control on the size of umbrella that small people are allowed to weild while walking through town at lunch time. I thought i was on some sort of Gladiator assault course yesterday trying to get through town with both eyes still intact at the other end. Thats more dangerous then guns!!
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#28
excellent idea great site for a new gun club in fact why dont they just share it with The Demond Gym club !! problem solved.
Honestly people our gun laws are the best there is mental health etc etc etc all play a part in some crimes but hey dont tar everyone with the same brush. Also the idea of everyone keeping the guns at police headquarters is fantastic NOT woop woop open invitation for some mad idiot to get in help himself and have the choice of weapon to do it I mean what a suggestion and so everytime you want to go and shoot for your chosen club on practise nights and then again on league nights you have to go get your gun take it to where ever then return it yea right great idea
Come on people get real you can walk out of your house and get run over by a bus so what we going to do ban busses ?
Oh I know wrap up in cotton wool and then wear a gun proof suit Oh please what ever next ?
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I think quite a few people are missing the point.
The gun laws may be fine. The question is why is “live” ammunition necessary for sport?
Ban “live” ammunition for sport and everyone is happy…..I’m sure technology could create harmless pellets that would perform just as well o the range?!
Guns don’t kill……bullets do!
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Jersey boy 85.
Re your comment: “Anyway, if I were that determined to go on a rampage, I could just as easy drive through King street in my car at 60mph…or throw a match into a petrol station…or open up a stand giving away free ice-cream that I had poisoned, that would get loads because everyone loves ice-cream…”
Jersey boy, you frighten me a hell of a lot more than guns…
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#82 “normal joe public are intelligent enough to, if really pushed, consider the diffrences”
Clearly not, as your first post more than proved! All the evidence shows that the public believe TV dramas over fact, that’s hardly intelligent is it?
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#85 ‘Anyway if i were that determined to go on a rampage i could just as easy have through king street in my car at 60mph! or throw a match into a petrol station or open up a stand giving away free icecreem but secretly ive poisoned it, that would get loads because everyone loves icecream!’
#88 ‘Jersey boy, you frighten me a hell of a lot more than guns’
I expect that some promotion hungry detective has already started a file on Jersey boy’s psychopathic thoughts.
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