UK university fees hike threat
Friday 11th June 2010, 2:59PM BST.
Andy Gibbs, Jersey's head of careers and work-related learning.
JERSEY students could be forced to pay more to go to university if the UK government goes ahead with a radical overhaul of higher education funding.
The Island’s head of careers and work-related learning, Andy Gibbs, said that any hikes in student fees in the UK were likely to be passed on to Channel Islands students.
His comments come after the UK’s Universities Minister David Willetts branded degree courses a ‘burden on the taxpayer that had to be tackled’ in what many are interpreting as a hint that higher fees are on the way.
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“Andy Gibbs, said that any hikes in student fees in the UK were likely to be passed on to Channel Islands students.”
Why? Channel Islands were deemed not british enough some time ago and are already paying full fees. This annoucement is about reducing the tax subsidy… a subsidy we do not get, so our children should not be affected.
But I guess they will be… again!
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I think it is helpful to look at alternatives rather than simply moan at the cost – in my spare time I’m studying for a law degree with the University of London by distance learning – total cost over three years should be no more than £3,000 (significantly lower than the Open University and far more prestigious). So those of you who want to study but can’t afford it should really look at this as a viable alternative – not quite as much fun I suppose…
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Mike R
You are so right-why should the tax payer fund the fees-who will benefit with much higher earnings in years to come-Yes the fees should be paid back
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I don’t wish to sound silly, but does Jersey not offer a student loan scheme.
The taxpayer shouldn’t be responsible for subsidising this….otherwise it should be open to all kinds of learning, like Mike R’s distance learning program.
I am not going to university (missed the boat on that one) but would like to continue my studies…..or do I not qualify because I work for a living, paying my taxes to educate everyone else?
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The fees Jersey pays for their students are absolutely extortionate. For my course (medicine) the fees charged by the Universities are c. £10,000 per year for the first 2 years, and then £23,000 per year for the final 3 years.
Add to that the cost of accommodation (easily £4,000/year). Bills/living/other course costs (£100ish/week when actually at Uni). Flights to and from the rock (£300/year).
Total fees for the 5 years: £90,000
Total additional costs per year: £8,700.
Total additional costs for 5 years: c. £40,000
Total cost for a 5 year degree: £130,000
Its a hell of a lot of money.
If the entirety of this was given as a loan by the States, would I be doing what I’m doing now? I very much doubt it.
When I’ve graduated – living in the ‘real world’, paying tax, renting/mortgaging somewhere to live, commuting etc – accruing interest on and trying to pay back a £130,000 loan really wouldn’t be an option. Bearing in mind the starting salary for a Doctor is in the region of £21,000.
Its worth remembering that all mainland students are subsidised by the UK government; Jersey is doing exactly the same thing. Its just that mainland students never actually see the true cost of their course, where as I get lumbered with a £23,000 bill from the University every year and hope that Jersey Student Finance have sorted themselves out and paid it.
To offer the entirety of fees/living costs as a loan (instead of a grant, as is currently the case) would be an absolute travesty and would be a massive disservice to the students of Jersey. I wouldn’t be against making slightly more than the £1,500 per year repayable to the states (put it up to nearer £3,500, which UK students pay), however I feel that the Island has no option other than to pay the cost of sending our students through University. Or else what would be the point of our schools achieving some of the best A-level results in the land?
I already work weekends whilst at University, and when I return home during my (extremely short) holidays, I barely have a day off from my holiday job… So I’m doing what I can to bring money in as well.
Of course we could all stuff Uni and go pick potatoes…
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John,
If you look at the salaries that consultants earn at the hospital (and many GP’s in Jersey earn much much more), you could easily finance a student loan.
If you were not willing to take out a loan to finance your studies why should taxpaysers finance them?
Of course you could not bother and do another job,the choice is entirely yours.
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Well John! sad as your situation is, perhaps if Jersey added up the amount of tax which it has managed to siphon away from the UK your predicament would not exist. The UK is merely (and surely) ensuring that, like the reciprocal health agreement, taking back that which is rightfully owed to it. If Jersey cannot even house people fairly, the UK has no obligatiom (morally or otherwise) to subsidise Jersey students QED
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Dave (6)
I am aware of consultants’ salaries. However, I won’t be owning anywhere near that sort of money for near enough 20 years (by which time a mortgage, and a bit of a pleasant life would be nice). A loan of that size is an absolutely MASSIVE commitment at the age of 18, which I’m not sure I would have made. Also I can’t see many places jumping to give 18 year olds £100k+ loans.
Why should taxpayers finance them? Well… why should taxpayers fund the hospital (we don’t all get ill), the schools (we don’t all have kids), the roads (we don’t all have cars)… you get my point. Its because this society we live in tries to help people make the best of themselves, education should not be provided on the basis of wealth.
Some of us of course may even come back and pay far more in tax than we ever would have done stacking shelves. Swings and roundabouts really.
Quentin (7)
Not sure I get your point… But I’m the first to admit that my situation is not sad, in terms of money its a lot easier than my mates from the mainland.
The UK does not fund Island students, nor should it. Jersey funds their own students.
The only reason Jersey students get charged international fees is because the States of Jersey don’t fund the Universities directly. The UK government hands out £billions to the Universities annually, effectively subsidising their own students.
Oh, and I’m pretty sure tax evasion and the offshore finance industry has very little to do with the decision about how much to charge Jersey students…
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John 8.
Re: “Why should taxpayers finance them? Well… why should taxpayers fund the hospital (we don’t all get ill), the schools (we don’t all have kids), the roads (we don’t all have cars…you get my point….”
Taxpayers finance the hospital, the schools, the roads, etc., because they are ‘of benefit and available’ to the collectivity, whereas, the only person who will benefit from your degree is you…get my point?
Furthermore, the taxpayer should only fund students taking the degrees the modern world really needs (e.g science, technology and engineering subjects, foreign languages and business skills)…and not students taking useless ‘soft-subject’ courses, simply because they wish to live the student life for 3 or 4 years and come out of it with a ‘Mickey Mouse’ degree that is neither use nor ornament.
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Gods sake…..John, i hope none of these people giving you a grilling ever need you to save their lives!
I already have a degree…..thank you everyone for paying for me, but after reading these posts i would just love to put myself on a ‘Mickey Mouse’ course for September….how does jewellery making strike you? Or another good one i saw once….surfing lol.
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John and Flip me!
Perhaps try getting a job whilst you are studying. This may give you experience in your field……at the very least it will ensure you learn (in the university of life) to stand on your own 2 feet like the rest of us.
What a selfish bunch you sound…..you’re looking to earn your degree to be able to earn more money! Simple. Therefore, in time, you will easily be able to pay it back ….and then some.
If you are the rare breed who are trying to get into the profession out of sheer desire to help the needy…..then the material rewards would not matter to you would they?!
Higher learning is a choice not a necessity for life….therefore pay for your choice yourself!
I’d rather my taxmoney went to the hospitals, roads ands schools…..not given to people who think everyone else owes them a great life!!
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John, you may consider funding hospitals, roads, prisons etc. to be similar as financing students who are clever enough to and choose to go to university. I do not think it is the same, and most jurisdictions throughout the world do not think it is the same either.
I believe students should finance at least 50% of their education through a loan scheme guaranteed by the States.
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Flip me 10.
If John saves lives in the future (and I say “IF”), he will be very well paid (mainly by the taxpayer but also by private patients) for doing so.
With regard your desire for a ‘Mickey Mouse’ degree, I think you should seriously consider ‘Research into Car Parks and Parking’…you never know, it may come in useful in Jersey. If not you can always join the host of graduates with similar degrees who work in Call Centres.
P.S. I suggest you read Mike R (2)…now there’s someone I can admire!
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I do have a job, I have 3 in fact. 2 During term time, and one during the holidays back on the island.
Why should we fund schools then if the only people that are going to benefit are the pupils? University’s just another form/extension of schooling right?
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I agree with one of the earlier comments about how you do the course. I’ve just signed up to do my business management degree at a cost of £3.5K spread over the 4 years with the Uni of London too. This means I can go to work gaining practical experience for the CV and gain the qualification. Uni life is fun but get with the times I’ll have the same qualification, none of the debt and 4 years relevant work experience.
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BS Deluxe
I did work while studying at college. I worked in a womens refuge voluntarily….. does the fact i worked for free make me a bad person? Was i, to please the masses, meant to get a paid job that would make no difference to people? Flabbergasted as ever.
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#1 In the UK papers it was about Universities raising their fees, this would obviously affect everyone studying at University equally (unless their Governments choose to contribute more).
#8 John, I get your point and I agree to some extent, although having studied Medicine originally I have many friends that are still fairly young doctors and they are all doing rather well financially, maybe you’re following the wrong path? We could all get ill and we did all use a school education, as far as I’m aware we don’t all pay equally for the roads though (?)
University is optional and does (allegedly) bring greater financial reward, although the public fail to realise that this is mostly not true of the sciences, still, for the most part I do believe students should retrospectively pay for their own further education.
Governments should help fund degrees that are essential to the general public (medicine, teaching, a few areas of law, etc) while jobs like nursing should move back to on the job training. However, this degree funding should be on the basis that (once qualified) the doctor commits to a minimum set number of years within the NHS, the teacher to State-run schools etc. rather than doctors heading off into private practice or teachers into private schools.
Despite now studying for a degree that Governments are trying hard to push, I (like 4 of my friends) also work full-time and pay for my own qualification. Yet for years, as a UK taxpayer, I helped fund kids to do degrees that are still of no use to anyone. Personally I’m glad, because when the Government badger me to teach I will be content that I don’t owe them anything.
And hey, a degree means nothing nowadays anyway and so I’ll have little option but to also fork out for a PhD. The joys!
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#15 Certainly study with the OU is looked upon very favourably by potential employers, I would guess the same is true of the University of London. I don’t know what UoL is reknowned for (although Mike suggests Law as one of their strengths) but I know the OU is well regarded for the physical and social sciences and you certainly have to be far more consistent in your marks than at a traditional university.
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John 14.
Mandatory education benefits not only the children but also the taxpayer and society. Without it our society would be unable to function. It imparts knowledge, common-coping skills and shared values. In principle, mandatory education provides the basis for a skilled workforce (the greatest key in solving poverty). Thus, we can view it as a public investment that yields benefits (to the collectivity) in excess of investment costs, your higher education does not…get my point?
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I would like to aplogise to Mickey Mouse for associating his name with degrees such as: Research into Car Parks and Parking, Windsurfing, Flower arranging, etc.
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What I don’t understand is how a UK price increase will affect us in the Channel islands. The UK does not subsidise us, we are not the apparent burden on their tax payers? My fees would cover 3 UK students.
As for everyone talking about loans – Jersey does NOT offer loans for students. The only loan available is a £1500 loan to cover the top up fee which the states don’t include in their means testing. In this means testing they don’t take into consideration mortgages or how many children your parents have. They also don’t include inheritance/trust money. which means someone with a £70,000 a year income wont get any help despite having 4 children and a student with a single mother but an inheritance behind them will get a full grant.
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Let’s start by scrapping free nursery care for all, or make it means tested in order it the present system is no longer abused. Then, maybe some of these monies saved can be used to assist our students.
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The right to a quality education is a core staple of any civilized society, and is rightly paid for by the tax payer. However, I think once you start talking about higher education the situation becomes somewhat blurred. Can you genuinely measure the benefit accrued to society as a whole by one degree over another.
Fair to say that the examples given above of medicine vs surfing are perhaps at the extreme of this argument. That said, one would expect over a lifetime the salary of a doctor would greatly surpass that of a surfer. As such, is it not therefore more reasonable for a medical degree to cost more than a surfing degree? How do you measure the likes of the arts or purest subjects such as maths and linguistics. The truth is you can’t. Everyone has their part to play in being productive to society in general.
The cost of a degree is the product of a mix of inputs, primarily the demand over supply. The demand often driven by the rewarding nature of the course or vocation that follows. That may be either financial for some, moral or both (e.g. Medicine. Have you met many poor doctors?)
In short, because of the complexity of appropriating “value” to a degree, I don’t think it is right to burden this cost entirely on the tax payer. Some subsidy is warranted, particuarly for the talented but needy. Otherwise, I say let the laws of supply and demand dictate the cost and who pays it.
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Flip Me
What is your point with comment 16?
I never said you were a bad person for taking up voluntary work, but getting a PAID job would help with your educational COSTS.
The taxpayer should not fund your higher education, this is your choice…..however, I don’t see why the states couldn’t offer to loan the money and you could pay it all back once you get a good, paying job????
I find it rather amusing how so many people can read one comment and completely twist it into something that was not said
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If you can’t afford it don’t go, that’s what happened in the old days!!!!!
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John,
Come back to Jersey, freind of a freind was on 80K as a doc. Not old either!! And we all know GP’s here are on a fortune…100K+ so the 130K loan seems about right tbh.
Lots of people I know now are downsizing to pay for the kids to go to Uni, maybe thats why there are so many gaffs for sale at the mo??
Mogit, never a truer word said.
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When I completed my degree I had difficulties getting work in the area related to my degree in Jersey. I had to leave Jersey, travel halfway around the world to get work because of this problem.
I think what should of happened and I believe should happen in the future is: Once the degree is completed, the graduate should be given a short term contract at the hospital where they are paid less then their colleagues and a certain percentage of their monthly wage taken out to pay the States back.
I believe both sides would be happy with this arrangement. The states would be getting their money back and the graduate would be gaining experience. But in my case some other countries health care system is now benefitting from the skills I gained at University which the States of Jersey paid for.
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Yankeedoodle 23.
This is not a question of pleading special cases because, at the end of the day, the final judge of the value of a degree is the market. Therefore, students should not be allowed to waste their time/taxpayers money on Mickey Mouse ‘non-courses’…such as Flower arranging…that no employer will value.
I’m not saying that flower arrangers – if that is their title – do not have moments of glory (at weddings, funerals, etc.). What I’m saying is that these ‘non-courses’ should not be degree courses at all, they should be apprenticeships or, in some cases, simply short training courses.
The university system is riddled with ‘non-courses’ that young people pretend to study before embarking on a life-long career at the local corner shop. No offence to grocery-shop assistants but, as far as I know, a smart appearance and a bright personality (and not a degree) are the basic requirements for this type of job.
What the modern world needs is people with enduring skills. So, we must be realistic, ‘Mickey Mouse’ degrees are worthless.
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25. Mogit.
Great idea, we don’t want poor people getting an education.
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J-Cat I would disagree, poor people do get an education. They attend States schools at no cost.
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Maybe it’s time jersey thought about setting up its own university, giving islanders free education and charging fees for international students. Jersey has so many business experts im sure that it could offer many high quality, desirable degrees attracting over-seas students. This way graduate talent would be maintained in the island and Jersey could begin to promote itself on a world stage.
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#21 Confused? It’s not a ‘UK price increase’; the individual UK Universities are considering raising their fees. That affects EVERYone who studies at a UK university. Jersey people currently pay the full fee, that fee is possibly being raised, ergo what you pay will be raised. The cost will be raised to UK students also since their Government is not going to contribute any more than they currently do.
The UK grant system never took any of what you mention into account either, it was a ridiculous system that penalised the ‘middle group’ and benefitted only those who knew the best way to fill out the forms and the key phrases to use.
The States don’t give loans but they do give subsidies, I suspect this may be dependent on what subject you are studying(?)
#29 Throughout most of my distance learning degree I have been earning a bit above minimum wage but have been working part-time so don’t earn much (my choice to help my study). There is no excuse nowadays for poor people not getting higher education IF they truly want it. With distance learning some Governments (and other bodies) do still give financial assistance. Equally there is nothing stopping them training to be a plumber or electrician, and then they won’t be poor for long.
There are ways if people bother to find them. Of course, intelligence will always (rightly) be a barrier to higher education.
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No 26. Re GP earnings – I think you omitted a zero from your figure?
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‘Maybe it’s time jersey thought about setting up its own university’
Great idea #31, then they would really broaden their minds (I don’t think) by never even leaving home and seeing how the less silver spooned have to live.
They would all qualify in thinking the definitive “Jersey Way”.
They would soon have it ingrained in them that loopholes in laws are great for the economy and that public employment is only for greedy scroungers, trade unions are evil and the devil should take the hindmost.
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England, Scotland and to some extent Wales have always been leaders in the world in higher education. Many foreigners come to England or Scotland, and if really desperate to Wales to get higher education e.g. degrees, masters e.t.c.
Why should’nt the Jersey students have to pay just like the foreigners?
Jersey has a lucrative local economy, which can offer the students a viable means of a career and opportunity and a life. Its a bit like having a coal mine on your doorstep.
If the States are going to fund students, then make them do degrees that have input into the Jersey economy, and why not send them all to Wales where its cheaper and relatively good value for money, rather than paying for them to go on holiday to the more expensive universitys for three years and then watching as they come back and moan that they cant get a job. Where is the control?
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Born Warrior 19.
You are correct, mandatory education does offer these benefits. But so does [optional] University Education. Should we start charging students ridiculous fees to use Highlands as well, after all that’s non-mandatory education.
Mike Oxlong 26.
Perhaps I will come back to Jersey at some stage. However I will have very little choice in the matter for very many years to come. I tell the NHS where I would prefer to be (that may include Jersey), and if a) there are jobs there and b) I beat others to the post, I will get the place. However they’re at pretty much free will to send me where ever in the country I need me and this may change every year or two.
Phyz 27.
As above, it would be pretty much impossible to complete even half of full medical training (to consultancy) in Jersey. Remember the General is pretty small when compared to most UK hospitals and doesn’t have the capacity to train many specialties. Also many specialties aren’t present in Jersey… If I wanted to be a cardiothoracic surgeon for example, the nearest centre I could train is Southampton.
Also, say I was doing a degree in chemistry, there are very few positions in Jersey that need chemistry grads. Perhaps a few teachers and a couple of States positions at best. Will we still tie these graduates to coming back to Jersey when there are no jobs for them?
I agree with what many say about ‘mickey mouse’ courses, but when you start debating their usefulness to society, and base funding on this you will get into some very very murky waters indeed.
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John 36.
The benefits of education are unquestionable, as I said earlier, it is the basis of a skilled workforce. And, without doubt, society receives externalities from all workers…including those with a university/higher education.
However, the rate of return of a university education is far greater for the student than it is for society. Therefore, once society has given you the basic tools (mandatory education), it’s up to you to decide whether or not they are sufficient for the job in mind. And if not, given the budget constraint, you must ‘chip in’ and get the ‘required tools’ for yourself. In other words, get out of the pram and push.
As for wading in murky water when it comes to “Mickey Mouse” degrees, I disagree. The market decides their value and uses the most transparent of methods: “Supply and Demand”. Unfortunately, any investment in these ‘non-courses’ will have little or no returns and, very likely, the taxpayer will have to spend even more money when the “Mickey Mousers” are unemployed with families to raise.
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#37 So true Born Warrior. And even with worthwhile degrees the number of people leaving university and never using them (when the taxpayer has funded them of course) is scary!
I’d imagine it’s extremely rare for someone to pay their own way through university and then not look for employment that uses that degree. Personally I’m not willing to help fund 3-5 years of optional education where the student does the minimum to get by and has no or little intention of ever using that degree.
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Ugh! Will people just stop moaning. The system is there for people to use/abuse it as it is. Whether people like it or not life is not fair, and in some cases people like John are fortunate to get on a course they enjoy, and will bring benefits to others. Whether those benefits are in the form of saving someone’s life to paying increased taxes on higher earnings then so be it, and if the tax payers supports this, again deal with it. Tax payers should know when they pay their tax they will get some benefit in some way out of that payment. They should also have the perspective to know that some money will help support those people who really cannot actually afford to live in Jersey for whatever reason, through sheltered accom, benefits etc. The sooner the moaners on here realise that life is about taking the opportunities available to them, rather than bellyaching about others the better. If prospective students were not able to have the opportunity or wide range of courses to choose from, then the development of services and technologies would flounder. I salute those that are supporting themselves through courses, but I also encourage those from all backgrounds to excel, and that in some cases will lead to further education being required and support from my tax payments, and long may this support continue, or do we want those without a direction in life and no chance to go on to further education to end up at the bottom of the economic food chain bleeding the system even more? BS Deluxe, Born Warrior, Dave, stop moaning and deal with the fact that life is not always going to work out exactly how you want it to, and sometimes for the improvement of society as a whole you need to allow your politicians to use tax payers money to support the education of its population.
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9. Born Warrior
“The only one benefiting from your degree is you”
So when you get sick, you won’t be in need of a doctor?
Everyone is always moaning that immigrants are taking local jobs, but when a local lad studies to fill an essential highly skilled job, you moan???
Can’t have it both ways, I’m afraid.
Also, how is Medicine a “Mickey Mouse Course”.
John – Well done on doing something worthwhile with your life, and all the best of luck to you!
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Anna G.
Firstly my love, I suggest you read all my posts, then comment. I never said Medicine is a ‘Mickey Mouse’ degree, and I never said I don’t support funding either…I said that I don’t support funding some of the over 400 degree courses which should not be degree courses at all.
As for your articulated concerns for the quality of my future care as a patient, then I think you should do some number crunching. Looks like the UK is in a state of over-provision.
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Stop the moaning 39.
Was that a rush of judgement I read there? Sounds to me like you are moaning about the opinions of others…but obviously moaning is fine as long as you are the one doing it! By the way, if you think the system is there to be used and abused, well let me tell you something, those who abuse it or allow it to be abused are taking away not only from those who pay for it but more importantly from those who might need it in the future. Get it? Doubt it.
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Why can’t I rid myself of the idea that some people object to paying university fees simply because they didn’t go to university, and so bitterly resent those that do..?
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43. Sylvester Sneekly
I think you may have a point there…
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#43 Maybe we resent it because we actually PAY to go to university ourselves!
Uni is optional, that’s a fact, and you (apparently) earn more because of getting a degree, so why shouldn’t you pay for it yourself? Why should someone who left school and worked hard through an apprenticeship to become a plumber or electrician pay for someone who took a different route, especially if that person just uses it as a 4-year holiday from real life?
It’s a choice to go to Uni, it makes sense that you pay for it yourself.
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Leah – what about those who can’t afford to go?!
Someone who wants to be a surgeon but comes from a poor family has to just accept he would be better off working in finance or doing an apprenticeship?
If those who did courses to become doctors and surgeons were just from families could afford it we would end up with an elitist medical department.
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43. I must agree that the only people i’ve heard complain are those who didn’t go to uni themselves.
And yes tax payers money goes towards those who will later potentially earn more money…and therefore potentially pay more tax!!…some of which will go towards the next generation of uni goers, but you wont see them moaning about sponging students because they’ve been there themselves.
38. I did a history degree and now work in finance (shock horror in jersey). However i only got this job because i got a good result in a well looked upon subject from a good university, so because its nots relevant to my job (though i suggest you should look beyond the subject name and think about skills the degree may have taught)was i unworthy of any financial aid during my course? I did by the way have part time jobs throughout my degree to try and help pay my way, yet am still paying off debts!
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I got a good degree at a proper university, and that is why I am critical of the way that Jersey currently funds higher education.
I would say that the people who wish this gravy train to continue are mainly students or parents of students.
I appreciate that a degree in medicine is more deserving of funding than the many media studies, sports science degrees etc. etc. that Jersey currently funds but can someone please explain to me the benefit that Jersey derives from paying £100,000 to enable a student to obtain a qualification and eventually a highly paid career, which by his own admission, is unlikely to be in Jersey?
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#46 Holly, that’s the point of the whole loan system, you pay it off retrospectively! Still, some of the people on my course did work for a few years first and save some money as Medicine is expensive and you do what you have to do. They will reap the rewards and they most certainly won’t stay poor if they graduate Medicine. The fact that Jersey doesn’t offer loans is another isse, and one for those of you that have a say (the electorate) to do something about.
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I don’t get what the big deal is with medicine, I don’t know a single doctor that can do anything further than a good website… say webmd.com
Surgeons yes, medical practitioner… pointless!
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Steve 47.
Well Steve, you (and Sylvester Sneekly) made a mistake there, at least where I am concerned. I got the required ‘qualies’ (and more) for my profession. I studied in Europe and worked all the way through…like thousands of individuals with particular capacities and aims, who choose to specialize in places where there are favourable conditions for effective learning.
You, on the other hand, are the perfect example of what I said earlier – the degree benefits the graduate and not society. It is the work a person does which benefits society. If your only ambition/opening was to work in finance you should have studied for that field and taken your ‘hobby’ subject at your own expense (as it is obvious that you have no desire to share the skills and knowledge you gained on your history degree).
This is why schools/parents should encourage youngsters to channel their capacities into positive outlets, in such way that natural talents are not squandered and the maximum benefit ‘for all’ can be achieved…because leading “der-der” students into the arena of ‘non-courses’ is simply a drain on resources.
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Why dont the States start charging fees for States schools? The amount of Landrovers and Jags I’ve seen in States school carparks indicates that the parents are milking the system.
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Born Warrior 47.
There are very few history related jobs i can think of i could argue would benefit society rather than fulfill my (in your opinion) purely selfish wish to study the subject. History is one fo the oldest and highest regarded subjects to study at university, i was unaware it had now become a ‘hobby’ subject. Would you rather i was using my degree to write a historical book or to work in the industry most important to Jersey? I would have thought using my degree for its ‘proper’ purpose would be the more selfish and least beneficial to society out of the two. At the end of the day i am perfectly aware that my taxes will go towards helping future students, i dont resent them for it, university is about more than just a degree, it taught me many skills without which i would not be the person i am today. I’m not going to apoloise for that
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As you say Steve, your studies have made you what you are today, thus confirming the fact that higher education benefits the individual and not society. However, it was not my intention to make little (by using the word ‘hobby’) of an excellent degree such as yours but, it is you, who has allowed your studies to become an interest outside your regular occupation…I just put the label on it.
P.S. If you had decided to work as an educator, researcher, writer of historical material or documentarist, your skills/knowledge/work would also have benefitted the collectivity.
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Hats of to you if the subject that you studied also lead you to a career you enjoy (you havent mentioned what it is you do?) I currently live at home whilst i pay off my debts and save money, this would not be possible if i immediately persuade some of the careers you suggested. Education would mean at least a further year at university (god forbid i should squander anyone elses taxes) and the other careers are simply thin on the ground/non existant in Jersey. This does not mean that once i have paid of my debts and can stand on my own two feet i wont attempt a move into such a career, for all our planning we can only get jobs that are available, especially in the current climate. We work, we pay tax, everyone has to, by getting a degree it increases the chances of earning higher wages and earning them sooner, thus paying back society for the support it offered you plus more, which in turn future graduates will pay back. It is a selfish attitude towards society to decide exactly who and what you’re personnal contribution should be spent on depending on your particular views on such subjects as the one we are debating right now. Schools are funded by tax payers money, A levels are not compulsory so therefore should tax payers money be kept from 6th formers and colleges and they should pay their own way?! Afterall they are in the most part still learning general subjects which wont benefit society, however they wont get far in society without them (most likely ending up on benefits and therefore demanding even more of your money)
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51 & 54. Born Warrior
Are you able to provide us with some proof for your repeated assertion that “higher education benefits the individual and not society”, you know facts and figures, things like that?
Many thanks!
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Sylvester Sneekly 56.
Oh, I see, governments have been discussing this for years – right, left and centre, and you want proof and figures…things like that.
Well, I shall try to explain to you (once and for all) how/why higher education benefits society only when combined with WORK!
Case 1.) Individuals with degrees who do not go out to work – their contribution to society/the collectivity is zero. Nonetheless, such individuals benefit personally from their degree courses but fail to share their knowledge/skills and, moreover, fail to contribute toward their own current/future needs and those of others.
Case 2.) Individuals with degrees who choose employment which excludes their the knowledge/skills – their contribution to society/the collectivity is equal to that of any taxpayer (they contribute toward their own current/future needs and those of others). Nonetheless, such individuals benefit personally from their degree courses but fail to share their knowledge/skills.
Case 3.) Individuals with degrees who choose employment which involves their knowledge/skills – their contribution to society is that of any taxpayer (as above). However, such individuals benefit not only personally from their degree courses but also have access to fields which provide high remuneration and further knowledge and skills…which in turn allow them to climb the career ladder and enjoy continuously increasing salaries.
Get it? Doubt it.
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Steve 56.
Steve, firstly, today we have the technology to be in one place and work around the world…and that’s exactly what I do. I am a multilingual technical writer and I work mainly online (although travel is involved in my profession). So, no excuses about job opportunities, because they are out there if you look. And Yes, I believe 6th form education should be paid for. However, pupils from disadvantaged backgrounds should be funded to put them on an equal footing when entering the ‘Arena of employment’. I also believe that any pupil with outstanding talent (from whatever background) should be fully funded throughout their entire studies and also receive financial incentives…if that means that the world will see another Newton, Fleming, Flemming or Turner.
P.S. The collectivity should always take priority over the individual, that is, if we wish to live in a safe and fair society.
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I understand perfectly what you said, so i dont see the neccessity of the ‘higher than thou’ attitude you adopt by suggesting we wouldn’t understand what your points are. Fortunately doing a history degree has allowed me to wade through needless waffle to get the the main point of someones argument (an invaluable skill i have found).
Your points above however (though impressive in waffle and big words) fail to provide any sort of clear argument. You agree that whether you work in relation to your degree or not you contribute equally, yet you try and argue that you only have access to higher wages and opportunties if you are working with your degree. Your failure is in seeing the skills and knowledge gained from say a history degree as purely “i know facts from the past and can inform people of these”. When in fact employers look at the fact that by doing such a degree you have demonstrated that you are determined, you are self motivated, you are academicly a high achiever, you have an analytical mind, you are driven, you are focused, interested in self improvement..i could go on. These are the skills we aquire and these are the skills employers want in their staff. Two of the most popular careers for people with a history degree are law and politics, the skills their degree gave them are perfect to go into these careers, yet if we look from your blinkered point of view they should really be completely irrelevant. I started my current job with many other graduates who studied varying degrees from history to pyschology to biochemistry and law. All these provide a huge range of skills which can be tailored to many different career choices. A degree is meant to open doors to you, not to set limits on your future. Of course there is an element of benefiting the individual, we all want to improve ourselves and do the best we can, and in my opinion that can only aid ‘collective’ improvement. You want ‘oustanding talents’ to be funded as much as possible, surely these are the people who go to uni!! The people who wish to further themselves and will ultimately contribute more to society!! It is these people who will potentially be the next Newton’s etc.
I entirely agree that disadvantaged individuals should be helped in order to gain an equal footing, however it seems hard to grasp your concept of the ‘collectivity taking priority over the individual’ when you then want ‘outstanding talent’ to be given full funding and therefore better opportunities! Perhaps you consider yourself one of these ‘outstanding talents’? It would certainly explain the slightly hypocritical outlook. “everyone should be equal, except some should be slightly more equal than others!” It seems you seek the utopian dream which (as my historical ‘skills and knowledge’ tell me) is exactly what it says…a dream.
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Steve 59.
Firstly Steve, my attitude is not ‘holier than thou’, it’s ‘matter of fact’. As for ‘needless waffle’, I see nothing evasive or vague in what I wrote. What part of “all workers contribute equally” are you having difficulty with? All workers pay tax on earnings, therefore, contribute in accordance with their salaries…having a degree does not equate to high-earnings (thus higher taxes), in fact, many tradesmen earn far more than teachers, for example.
Re: “Your failure is in seeing the skills and knowledge gained from say a history degree as purely “i know facts from the past and can inform people of these”. When in fact employers look at the fact that by doing such a degree you have demonstrated that you are determined, you are self motivated, you are academicly a high achiever, you have an analytical mind, you are driven, you are focused, interested in self improvement.”
That sounds like the average motivational letter which students send out together with their Curriculem Vitae (you forget to add: “and I believe that I am the perfect candidate for the position”). However, that aside, you are mistaken, I do not dismiss your skills and knowledge as purely facts to be rolled out to others (educators, although fundamental, are certainly not the only key individuals in our society). Furthermore, I am in no doubt that your employer was impressed by all the points you mention, because they increased your ‘attractiveness’ as a trainee, once again proving that your degree benefits you personally.
You also mentioned Law and Politics, I totally agree (both fields – and many others – allow individuals with your qualifications to work within spheres which serve the collectivity, as per Case 3.), but you didn’t move in either direction, did you?
As for Excellence versus Mediocre, there is no match, as there is a far greater possibility of seeing another Newton emerge from a small group of outstanding individuals than from hordes of unexceptional students. Such an investment (although not without risk) might even benefit the world…as I said, talent should never be squandered.
To round off (as enough has been said, at least for anyone who truly wishes to understand), I am not a Utopian, I am simply interested in realistic social arrangements. Resources are limited, claims on resources are many (health care, schools, SS benefits, pensions, roads, facilities, etc.). Therefore, the system needs support and the most feasible and socially acceptable method of support is ‘taking the weight off it’ – by encouraging those who can, to stand on their own two feet.
P.S. The educators (in primis) and the market decide whether an individual is outstanding, not the individual.
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This has actually become quite amusing, i will have to assume, if you are in fact not a complete hypocrit, that your studies have not at all benefited you as in individual and have purely been a god send to society? you are quite the martyr. You say you a ‘multilingual technical writer’ (i cant help but feel there is a somewhat more simplstic name for this), can i ask why you arent a teacher in perhaps IT or Languages (i have had to guess that these are your key skills)?
Perhaps i could have gone into teaching, and therefore as you yourself admitted earnt less and contributed less… but hey, at least i would have been using my degree to its best effect ay! And no i didnt choose law or politics (though i’m discovering a new found passion for speaking out for what i believe in), instead i chose a career which utilises my skills in a differnt way, in future i will consult my fellow tax payers before i make such a riduculous choice, as they of course must dictate which job i do depending on what course i took. I am paying back every penny i ever borrowed and more, what have i got to apologise for? Surely by using one discipline to help me master a new discipline i am going to ultimtately contribute a hell of a lot more to society.
yes there are many claims on resources, SS benefits being a key one, and low and behold most of the people on such benefits dont have a uni education, perhaps if they had then they wouldnt now be such a strain on society and would be paying back more in taxes than they ever would have borrowed to get some qualifications.
Those who can stand on their own two feet do! i didnt get financial aid to go to uni because i’m a cheapskate, i did because i could never have afforded it without help, even working all the way through (as i assure you i did).
Can you explain how the next scientific genius would ever be in the position to make such earth shattering discoveries unless they had a job in an organisation which would demand a uni education. Or are you suggesting that only outstanding individuals should be funded through uni because of course, they are gauranteed to be the geniuses with the most to conribute to society. all others fall by the way side unless of course daddy is very rich and they fancy a ‘hobby’.
For someone who tried to blag they wanted some sense of equality, you seem well on your way to creating a society lead by a group of outstanding handpicked elite who are funded all the way because lets be honest, they are the only ones with anything to offer to society. At points here i feel as if i am writing another essay on Russia.
Again you offer some underhand insult that i dont ‘wish to understand’ your point of view. I understand it, in areas you are in danger of making some good points until realism goes out the window, other areas sound elitist, and yet others pretty hypocritical. I am voicing the opinion of every student ive ever peronally met, i guess we’ll never shake the stigma of spongers with nothing to offer to society except oustretched hands and pleading eyes. Some will go on to great things, others will become cogs in the machine of society, all have their part to play and all will ultimately pay their way. Who are we to restrict people because we dont see them as ‘oustanding’, everyone deserves a chance to better themselves and to achieve what they want to achieve, how can you consider a basic human right selfish?! You seem to think that because i dont agree with you i am ignorant and dont wish to be enlightened by the person who quite clearly has the ultimate truth. Perhaps it is you that should head into politics.
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Steve asks Born Warrior “…can i ask why you arent a teacher in perhaps IT or Languages..?”.
I don’t know born Warrior but perhaps he gets paid more than a teacher, doesn’t want to, or have to, put up with other people’s obnoxious brats and more than likely can work from home.
No degree needed to understand the attraction of being a multilingual technical writer rather than teaching.
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Steve (no need for numbers, we’re the only posters left on the thread)
I’m glad you’re amused and if you wish to consider me a hypocrite, then go ahead, I think I’ll still manage to sleep tonight. By the way, I’m not an elitist, I simply believe in the positive nature of meritocracy.
But let’s put aside my ‘waffle’ for a moment and get down to brass tacks.
If I understand rightly, you are currently working in finance, so could you please give me a few examples of how your degree is benefitting the collectivity? Other than the fact that your work allows you to pay tax and contribute toward your current/future needs and those of other citizens (in the same way as all workers do).
And please exclude the ‘detail’ that your degree made you what you are today – which simply reinforces my argument with regard personal growth at the expense of the taxpayer.
And try to avoid coming back with: “Without my degree, I would be in a low paid job or even unemployed”…because there are thousands of graduates working in low paid jobs and unemployed in the UK, many of whom with little or no hope of finding an opening, because no-one endeavoured to channel their talents in the right directions…check it out.
Do you really believe that your employer would have selected you, if he had had the chance of filling the vacancy with a person with the ‘right’ qualifications (already geared to go)…because if you do, then a pretty face and a nice pair of legs would have had the same affect on your employer as your degree.
P.S. How does technical writer who speaks several languages sound, more precisely a Knowledge author…an almost unheard of job title which I always choose to avoid.
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Born Warrior your comment’a pretty face and a nice pair of legs will fill any vacancy’. How many male finance workers do you know with pretty faces and nice legs?
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Actually T, I said: “…then a pretty face and a nice pair of legs would have had the same affect on your employer as your degree.”
Obviously, I was referring to a pretty female.
And apparently it’s true…the physical attractiveness of a particular interviewee can significantly influence the interviewer, especially when none of the interviewees has received any introduction into the working patterns and routines of the respective sector.
When someone is viewed as attractive, interviewers (male and female) are often blinded by the ‘halo effect’ and tend to assume that the candidate is as intelligent as he/she is attractive…and sometimes it’s true, take me for instance!
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wow bornwarrior, you certianly seem to have all the answers, a pyschologist with expertise in interviews no less.
The fact that you avoided answering whether your career benefits society and not just yourself speaks volumes in my opinion.
My point which was ultimately answered by number 62 simply shows that the career was likely to be avoided because it paid less or its not a job thats appeals to some people. Shock horror, the same reason everyone avoids any other job and instead chooses one they will be happier in and maybe earn more in.
Answering your point (which you managed to avoid when i asked), i dont know, maybe because working in Jersey’s most important industry is fairly benefecial to Jersey and therefore its society!! My oompany is one of the largest expanding private companies in Jersey. By taking on more staff they are able to increase revenue and then offer more jobs (to a wide variety of ‘skilled’ people). Also, theough this expansion the company now sponsors the Jersey team which will travel to the next Commonwealth Games, many of whom i think you will find would struggle without such support. So, (i’ll try agagin), same question to you…
Thankyou for setting the bounderies for my argument, heavens forbid i should use anything you simply wouldnt agree with! Next time someone argues about the war in the middle east, try and avoid the issue of oil please. Ta.
In anycase, i will try and avoid such repugnant issues as trying to make the best of myself. Perhaps i should aim for mediocrity, if i’m not ‘outstanding’ then clearly i have no place in your hairbrained schemes for equality and ‘fair society’.
Channelling people into jobs?! Are you seriously suggesting that poeple should be channelled into jobs not beause they seriously want to do them but because you believe its what they should be doing?! I couldnt imagine a more motivated and content workforce. Good plan batman.
Actually, i got the job over someone who had a maths degree. Funny really, you would have thought they would be much better suited due to their ‘right’ qualifications. Here’s a thought, perhaps they look at more than just the name of your subject?! Cutting edge i know but worth some pondering i feel.
P.S Crazy as it sounds, i actually knew the definition of multilingual. The question was asking what you do and how you are so beneficial, but ive already asked this (twice).
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Born Warrior. For your interest please see the following link, demonstrating just how diverse the careers of prominant history graduates are. Would you blieve it there is even a business and finance section.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2005/jul/19/highereducation.historyandhistoryofart
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Steve
Multilingual technical writers write/translate the technical documentation that accompanies just about everything from mobile phones to space shuttles, not to mention international reports/contracts and research documentation.
Without such documentation (Installation Manuals and User Guides, for instance) manufacturers would be unable to sell their hi-tech products around the world, Installer companies would be unable to set up machinery and operators would be unable to work, let’s say, Assembly lines…pretty useful to society, ey! Especially when it’s a mile-long refrigeration plant designed and built to function in an extremely hot environment (just finished that). I bet the people who received my drafts for that one are happy, they can switch it ‘On’ now!
And I’m quite aware of the openings your job provides, so I suggest you read your link…it’s you who took three days to find it.
By the way, I worked in a Multinational for 8 years and it was part of my job to interveiw candidates for the documentation section. I mean, it’s no good simply asking candidates for a self-assessment of their language capacities – not everyone is honest – so I had to do it. So, I know a few (just a few) things about interviewing structures and the ‘halo’ affect.
Oh, I’m still waiting for a realistic example…car washing is more useful than your job Robin!
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Steve
Seen that? More taxes on the way. Now do you understand why there should be a little more rigour in the selection processes and an emphasis on yield potential. Money should not be wasted on funding average students to study soft-subjects.
And no matter what you say, channelling talents, abilities and creativity achieves fruitful results. Society as a whole benefits from the productivity of those who are most talented.
P.S. . All men are equal, but some men are more ‘Talented’ than others…and you know the rest.
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You dismiss anything i can suggest simply because you dont personally agree. Its like me saying that actually you still have no benefit to society because in true manly fashion ive never read an instruction manual in my life and still managed. I also have no use for a mile long refrigeration plant, but nice work anyway. I am, by the way, aware that these arguments are ridiculous, but now you see what im facing with you, try looking at the bigger picture sometimes and accept that there might be a way outside of your entrenched beliefs.
I would like to say that at uni i was president of a society which was frankly struggling and used my spare time to ensure it continued for future students to benefit from. In my spare time i help to coach two different sports. I was also part of a community scheme going into Primary schools to help kids in PE and encourage sport and a healthy lifestyle. All of this in my spare time, with no pay. I would like to think therefore that i have a bit more to ‘give’ to society than my interest in history. I’m not sure what gives you the right to decide who has any value to society when you dont know anything about them, let alone basing your decision on the tenuous opinion that subjects studied must directly relate to the job you do in order for you to be giving anything to society.
Does this wish to reduce financial aid to students come from some resentment that you received none yet managed to land on your feet? (i’m not saying you havent worked hard to get where you as you are but its not as simple as your suggestion that ‘you just arent trying hard enough’). It also sounds like you didnt have to try and find your job whilst we were in a recession, but please correct me if im wrong.
‘Yeild potential’?! You are aware that you are talking about humans here and not farming?! You cant deny someones human right to education on the grounds that ‘sorry, but you just dont have anything to give to society, Joe down the road has a far higher yeild potential’.
The only time i can start to agree with you is relating to ‘soft subjects’. Though i would not class sports science etc in this category as without people who had such a degree i wouldnt actually be able to participate in any level of physical activity after injury and surgery (and i know anyone who enjoys any level of sport will agree). I would point the finger here at courses ive seen such as David Beckham studies, The Science of Superheroes, Philosophy in Ufology, Star Trek Studies. Here i can completely agree with your reluctance for any financial aid to be provided, these are frankly courses for the sake of courses, true ‘hobby’ subjects. However, i cannot agree that anyone wishing to undertake a more worthwhile degree should be denied help simply because you dont regard them as talented enough, we all have the same right to make the best of ourselves. Yes, the most talented people will make the new discoveries and important advances which alter society, but what kind of society would that be if we disregard everyone else. You said it yourself, all men are equal yet some are more talented. The key being all are equal.
I had a quick look at the fundamental human rights (check it out, it only took me 2 minutes
). interestingly one of them is ‘Everyone has the right to work and to free choice of employment’. Can you explain how this fits into your wish to restrict people’s jobs depending on their specific degree? I would assume the European Court of Human Rights might have something to say on the subject.
One or two articles further state that ‘Everyone has the right to education, higher education shall be accessible to ALL on the basis of merit’ (hence the dependence on A level results as to whether you get on your course, this is where it is decided if you are ‘talented’ enough). Further, ‘Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship’. Im not entirely convinced your personal opinions allow for everyone to fully develop, let alone strengthen the respect of peoples human rights and freedoms. A little more tolerance for those not quite as able as yourself wouldn’t go amiss i feel.
P.S If you are fully aware of the openings my degree provides, why are you still questioning my choice of career when it is one of those openings?!
PPS. Do you really need an explanation of the finace industries importance when you live in Jersey? I’ll humour you. It contributes around 1 billion pounds of Jersey’s Gross National Income, its provides 70% of total corporate tax revenues which funds a majority of annual states expenditure in Health, Social Security and would you look at that, Education. Independent reports show that without the industry Jersey would most likely enter a depression which would be permanent without an alternative industry coming to the fore. Clearly you really value car washing batman, perhaps you could privde a manual on the best technique to get the ultimate shine, Jersey could really benefit from some shinier 4×4′s.
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Steve
Re: ‘Everyone has the right to work and to free choice of employment’.
Great, time for a job change! I think I’ll become a Brain surgeon…OOOPS…I can’t just yet, I haven’t finished writing the Installation and Programming manual for that newfangled Brain Scanner…but who cares, no-one will bother reading it!
P.S. I apologize for the car wash quip.
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Steve
Sorry I gave you such a flippant answer previously, but that was the best I could do close to midnight. However, I’m taking a well-earned breather now, so I’ll try to explain my beliefs in a simplified manner.
Imagine Jersey’s social-security system (and it is a magnificent system for such a smalll place…even though it far too easy for some to abuse) is a bus company with a limited fuel supply.
The buses must run in all directions (schools, hospitals, etc.), but each bus can only reach a certain point before it is forced (duel to fuel constraints) to return to the station and pick up other passengers…the demand for buses is relentless.
Obviously, the bus company cannot allow the buses to go beyond the ‘last affordable stop’ on each run…because the extra miles would create a higher demand for fuel (euphemism for Tax). So, management, during optimization-plan discussions, decide that the last stop on the main route should be between Town and the Industrial Estate, in a location (mandatory education) which serves both areas.
In this way, those who choose to work in the vicinity of the ‘last stop’ have no problems, because the service satifies their needs. Unfortunately, due to lack of fuel, those who decide to continue and go to the University (which is quite a distance from town) must either walk (work) or get a lift (another euphemism for getting someone to pay).
It would be more than wonderful, if the bus company had fuel enough to take ‘everyone everywhere’…but such a system is possible only in Utopia…as your History studies tell you. Sadly, the SS system is like a blanket, if one pulls it too far over one side of the bed, the other side remains uncovered.
But let’s just say, the bus company can manage to provide one, just one, ‘Special Bus’ all the way to the University.
Who deserves a seat on that bus – passengers who are more likely to go all the way and thus make excellent use of the service (the Outstanding); or passengers who will surely enjoy the ride (the Unexceptional) but, as they very often do, may get off the bus before it arrives at its final destination?
I know my choice…’The Outstanding’
Elitist, Utopian, I don’t think so.
Realistic, Meritocratic, definitely.
P.S. Having the opportunity of a ‘free ride’, should be more than an incentive for the truly ambitious to try to get on that ‘Special Bus’.
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I understand your point, i really do. The States cant afford to fund everyone right through to uni as well as maintain the demand for resources in other areas. I just think that we cant allow ourselves to be quite so selective about who should have access to higher education.
There are, in my opinion, other areas which should be adressed much before we start to consider such action. For example, the numerous examples of families ‘earning’ upwards of 40k a year on benefits in the UK! They choose not to get a job because they know they will be far better off having another kid and being given a larger council house and extra benefits with which they can afford to have a mercedes sat in the drive way! These people have zero ambition, absorbing the taxes of Joe Bloggs who worked hard for his 20k a year so that they can sit around with 40k for doing nothing. When put in perspective, these people are a far greater leech on tax payers money than a student. They will never pay back a single penny, let alone give anything to society.
And in the news the other day, the plans to build a new visitor centre at stone henge at a lowly sum of 25 million of the publics money! It is this, and other similar and utterly pointless schemes which waste so much tax payers money for next to nil constructive return, yet often people dont even seem to bat an eye lid! Jersey’s very own steam clock cost a million pounds, wahay now we can boast we have the biggest steam clock in Europe, a very worthy cause for everyone’s money.
My point simply being there are many many issues involving squandered pennies which are far more wasteful and unconstructive than assisting students through uni.
I would ask you to explain again, if you dont mind, how you would decide those who merit higher education. If not through the current school/exam system then how else?
Meritocratic, i agree, though i feel perhaps you are heading towards hyper-meritocratic, which by its very nature is verging on elitist. Realistic, i am not so sure, i will lose no sleep over worrying that i will live through a government which does not value the rights of its citizens. I have no plans to move to North Korea.
P.S i far prefer this now it has become a friendly debate rather than a subtle digging match/sarcastic brawl, for which we were both guilty.
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Guys calm down! It should be the employers funding what is needed in the island, If more nurses are needed on island, It should come out of the health funds, If its a finance and investment companies, rather than getting staff off island, invest in locals going to uni to get there degree. That would take the burden off the tax payer.
Almost like an apprentice in the building trade going to highlands.
To me what is the point of getting a degree for a job thats not available on the island. Getting states funding and moving to the UK to get a job. I didn’t go to UNI But people do have the right to better themselves, not at the cost of others though.
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