This obsession with cheap labour undermines us all
Tuesday 15th June 2010, 3:00PM BST.
From Gary Smith.
I FEEL the need to bring to the attention of your readers my experiences last week concerning my employment in Jersey.
For the past six weeks I have been working through an agency for one of the well-known internet mail order firms. I was told the position was ongoing, but could finish at any time. Fair enough. On the night shift that I worked were many Polish workers, the majority, like myself, employed through agencies. Quite a few started after me only two or three weeks ago.
On my particular shift, the team leaders and their assistants were all Polish and, as far as I could see, there were only two non-immigrants on the shift, other than myself, they were both Jersey-born.
Last Thursday night/Friday morning (4 June) one of the Jersey lads was told that he was no longer needed. Even though he had been there seven months, he worked through an agency and was given about one hour’s notice by the team leader.
The following night, about half-an-hour from the end of the shift, I was informed by the team leader that I was no longer needed. I asked why and was informed that the mail firm were trying to cut down on agency labour and were to employ two people on the books.
If this is so, fair enough. But how the decision was reached to finish up myself and the Jersey lad was definitely not done on a last-in, first-out basis. It seems a very big coincidence that both of us are non Polish speaking, while all those that were kept their jobs.
Then, last week, I contacted several building firms for work as I am a fully experienced tradesman of 15 years and have worked for many of them over the 11 years I have been here.
During my inquiries I discovered that one of the major firms in the Island is sending four of their Polish labourers to England on a training course to learn dry-lining and ceiling-fixing, the very job I have been doing for over 15 years.
There is little building work around at the moment and to blatantly undermine tradesmen like this, to replace them with cheap inexperienced labour, is a disgrace.
As I see it, this obsession with cheap labour will undermine the island in the long run. People will no longer have a decent standard of living – the reason why most people are here – and they will go elsewhere.
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This is so wrong.
If this firm is getting rid of locals for the benifit of immigrants something should be done about it at once.
I don,t suppose they will let you join a union to stop this happening.
Why are the states allowing this to happen?
Why don,t the states draw up a contract before allowing these firms opening here and sacking the local workforce?
Makes me so angry GRRRRRRRRRRR
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The grapevine has it also that on a very prestigious development site in Portelet run by the largest development company in Jersey, a non-Jersey engineering company are laying off local employees and “importing” people from the emerald isle to work on this site – no 5 year residency needed. Something really needs to be done to protect our work force, both Jersey born and long term residents. By all means employ these people if and when there is no other alternative but while we still have a huge local unemployment problem, these companies should be forced to employ Jersey residents first and foremost.
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The reason this is allowed to happen is because the Regulations and Undertakings Law has never been enforced and is blatantly disregarded. Until we bring in work permits the situation will never be addressed.
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Far too many firms in Jersey favour Continental workers, they say it is because they work hard and do not complain, what they mean is “they are cheaper” the worst offenders are the construction companies.
The greed in this island is beyond a printable description.
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PLAY.COM is a major offender too. There you have it…named & shamed.
If the states want to reduce deficit, then this needs to be addressed NOW. the more locally resident workers these companies make redundant (for no real, viable reason) then the more people claiming unemployment and paying less taxes!
The flip sid is if these companies are paying lower wages then the states coffers are receiving less in taxes too.
Stop this greed and blatant DISCRIMINATION…..it is ILLEGAL!!
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2. if your grapevine is correct then this shouldbe reported to the States Members so that it can be investigated.
If they are indeed breaking regulations then they need to be punished. But who runs population? Chief Ministers Department! engough said.
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In my experience – regardless of salary – Polish workers tend to be better educated and work far harder.
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The Polish do work very hard and without complaining, I am not surprised that employers prefer to employ them.
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Go to any construction site and you’ll see mostly foreign workers. Dandara at Castle Quay probably employ 95% of foreigners, and their other sites are exactly the same.
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5 BB Delux
I fully agree but it is not just Play this is happening at Indigo also.
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cheap labour is not new ,,,,i can remember,,,,,the french,,,digging potatoes,,,,irish doing the same,,,,,, then the portuguise,,,into hotels,,,,,then the polish,,,,into all jobs,,,,and now in these wright ups i see the irish are on the up again in favour of,locals,,,and the states do nothing to help the locals,,,,,,THERE IS SOMETHING VERY WRONG WITH JERSEY,,,,,,IT WILL TAKE A GOOD HARD WORKING POLE TO SORT THIS ISLAND OUT,,,,,
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It is always going to be hard for any employer to get the best workers, no matter what industry you are in. I don’t believe any reasonable employer wants anything other than the best workers for that job – no matter where they are from.
We have a 5 year rule which is stiffling businesses and whilst it may be hard to accpet, why should an employer be dictated to about who he employs based on where the worker comes from? It is utter nonsense.
We often hear complaints about poor workmanship, poor service and low productivity; if you are not free to employ who you want then this will always be the case. It will also drive costs up.
It is also worth observing that many Polish people have now been here for well over 5 years and they have had to put up with dreadful accommodation as well as fulfilling many of the Island’s less appealing jobs.
Thanks in part to their hard work we are all enjoying the benefits of our relatively properous Island.
Of far greater threat to all of us is the demonstrably inept politicians; many of whom are unemployable. The true cost these individuals inflict on the tax payers / wealth creators on this Island is obscene. We all need to wake up to the reality that these people spend OUR money.
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I knew it wouldn’t be long before the “racist” comments against the jerseyman began.
Discrimination aginst the locals is rife. We all know that the regulation of undertakings law is a joke; too many veted interests it seems. I have had personal experience of how the law is applied rigorously to small businesses but most definately not to large ones.
The person who wrote this letter is to be congratulated. He is courageous indeed, although his letter will no doubt attract the misinformed and bigoted comments about jersey people which have already been made by a couple of commentators above.
Perhaps the tide is now beginning to turn. Up to now, jersey people, normally hospitable and giving, have quietly watched while this sort of thing has gone on. The fact that some are now prepared to voice their concerns is fantastic.
The trouble with the states and those who administer the regulation of undertakings law is that they can no longer smell the awful stench of it all because their noses have become used to the stink.
Someone mentioned immigrant workers “putting up with” poor accommodation; another well worn and quite dreadful argument. Well, they don’t have to put up with anything. Whatever they put up with must be better than their home conditions otherwise they wouldn’t be here.
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This why the voting turn out is low. Things like this go on, everyone knows about it but nothing is ever done.
“Our” states members are supposed to be approachable and accountable to the ordinary person. “Ordinary”, not financial services, just “ordinary”.
Can you imagine how astonishing it would be if Senator le Sueur telephoned the writer of this letter and asked to meet with him in order to discuss his situation? It would be so unusual that it would probably attract media comment.
The point, of course, is that it should not be astonishing or unusual. Someone like Le Sueur should be willing, able and indeed duty bound to address matters like this.
One thing of which you can be sure; if a financial institution had made a complaint of this seriousness, you can be sure that the “Chief Minister” would quickly arrange a meeting to see what could be done.
He {or his assistant’s assistant) would probably add that it was a pity that the complainant wrote to the media before asking the states member for assitance. In that situation, I am sure that the “Chief Minister” would have an open door policy. Not here, though, where ordinary people are concerned.
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When locals are being made redundant and there are not enough jobs to go around we need WORK PERMITS. Many people have said this for years but has not been done because of people making money by paying low wages.
This is costing the taxpayers millions in unemployment benefits and income support.
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If we are generalising on how hard polish workers work, can we also generalise on how hard they drink, and the resultant high amount of public orders problems they have bought to the island ?
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#7 If only this were true. I had Polish colleagues last year, some only lasted a day, didn’t actually expect to be asked to work!
As for education, how are we to know? Have you seen a CV and tried checking it’s authenticity? Not exactly easy.
Of course some Polish workers are fantastic, so are many Jersey workers, and UK workers. But, UK and Jersey workers cannot afford to work for a pittance, and that’s what it boils down to, they are trying to make a life in a place that is more expensive to live than Poland. Some Poles are looking to make a life here, but at least they have the option of going back to Poland if it gets too costly here, Jersey and UK people are stuck with the expensive life!
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World tends to be unjust. I am a Polish national, have been in the UK for over five years. I can say that most Polish nationals are working here because our country may not give us chance to develop our businesses in the aspect of high cost of NI (comparising to the UK=£32.00 & PL=174PLN p/m)another thing bureaucracy is too much there.If you make any small mistake with your accounts this lead to bankrupcy.Ask Poles around whether they have any business before travelling within another EU state.
As far as situation in Pl will not change Poles stay here or move somewhere else.If I am in your position I would not be happy too, but I believe that we should not blame ourselves this question should be addressed to our PL & UK leaders for creating ‘new form of economic slavery’.I assume that both parties had intrest in that.
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Bravo, Captain Mainwaring!
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Good letter Mr Smith and one that needed to be written, times are tough at the moment and particularly so in the building trade. We should be giving preference to our local workforce whether born here or resident for 5 years plus. Work permits are the answer and I’ve never understood the government’s reluctance to introduce them. We should close the door to immigrant labour NOW and employers should have to prove that a position cannot be filled locally before importing labour ( and I mean properly, not in the advertise a job locally that has already been allocated to a non Jersey resident way that the banks do it )
I like the Polish, they seem to be polite and hard working and unlike the Portuguese have learned English fully rather than the rather lazy way some Portuguese learn enough to get by and stop trying. This has no doubt made them easy to employ, add to this a reluctance to complain and I can see why employers have embraced them but it should not be at the expense of local people. The law needs changing because until it becomes illegal to employ non locals ( and this would need to be enforced ) employers will continue to take the cheap option. Mr Smith is right, this will undermine Jersey long term and we wil all be the poorer for it.
I sincerely hope that action is taken as this abuse by employers will otherwise continue if left unchecked.
Thank you Gary Smith for taking the time to put pen to paper.
Mulvie.
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An absolutely disgusting state of affairs
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Captain Mainwaring 12.
Captain Mainwaring Sir, I wish to join your crew and set sail for the Isle of Fairness!
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PJG 16.
UUUUHH, now there’s a turn up for the books! Are you trying to say that there was no drunken violence before the Poles arrived? If so, you obviously walked around with your eyes closed before their arrival!
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Years ago there was a shortage of workers so they brought in french Irish UK to fill the gap.
Nowadays with all industry closed they don,t need any labour when there is enough local unemployed.
Many are in a position (and are) buying their houses back home as they are still very cheap in eastern Europe with the money they earn here.
Dandara has a lot to answer for.IMO
It was a bad day when these countries joined the EU for both here and UK,all it has done is undermine the workforce and our lot are scared to upset the EU and we are not even in it!
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Work permits and background checks…let’s know who we are importing …this inflicting of any scallywags on the population is wrong ,will it take a Senators daughter to be raped by some of these dope fiends we have here to make them wake up.
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Stop complaining everyone. It is our fault for voting in the type of politicians who support the big companies who do this.
Get out there and vote for the people who have the interests of the WHOLE island at heart, rather than voting for those whose true aims are to distribute the majority of the wealth almost exclusively amongst the wealthy.
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Nellie Macon (3) The reason this is allowed to happen is because the Regulations and Undertakings Law has never been enforce
Gary Smith is not the first and unless the CoM get off their fence and do something, this will not be the last. Indigo Group are well aware of the problem but their management is moribund. It does nothing about it.
Think Jersey and employ Jersey. As its stands the likes of Indigo Group might as well pack up and go back to Glasgow, it is of little benefit to Jersey.
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My goodness this has been going on for the past three years.
If there is cheap labour it will be used, every boss will be trying to make cuts in the current financial situation and if they can get away with smaller wages they will,
I had a portugese worker ring the door bell, he said in broken english, ” i have been here for 2 weeks, he then asked if i had a place he could live and a job, he then went on to say there are no jobs in Maderia and Portugal” he wasn’t very happy when i said i live in a house not a buisness and i couldn’t help. His last words were the polish have taken all our jobs! A week later another two men came to the door this time from Bulgaria, similar scenario apart from he could’t speak english and got quite frustrated.
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shame that some local school leavers or peole who had attended highlands, had not been given the jobs.
quite true nellie.
the local is the modern day abbo.
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Jersey is not in the EU so why do we have to employ any National’s from the EU at the expence of locals. My Passport states I have no right to employment or abode in any EU Country. So wake up those who have been voted in and set the record straight, you are discriminating and being racist against local people who’s taxes stay in this island.
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Helena@30,
If you are Jersey born and bred you have a right to employment and abode in the UK. Last time I looked the UK was in the EU.
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Helen Back
I find it so hard to believe how these people can afford or even choose to come to Jersey if they have no money…..to an extent I can understand the Portuguese fella, but the Hungarian? How do they even know where Jersey is?? Are we becoming an international soft touch island like the UK?
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Well perhaps Jersey’s reluctance to house people fairly is balanced by a reluctance of the very people to employ local people. I mean you can’t have it both ways, you tax these people, yet you refuse them basic housing standards. If you don’t like the status quo you could always go to England where you will not be discriminated against. The days of “I’m local I’m ok ma lav amd happy days are over, welcome the age of austerity. If you don’t like it you know where…….
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Helena – We are told that we cannot have work permits because it is racist and against EU human rights laws. Yet the same politicians refuse to even acknowledge the problems faced by Jersey people with the “no right to live or work in the EU” stamp yet alone discuss the issue and yet we have every bit of EU red tape rammed down our throats. I understand our new “human rights” law will also exclude any reference to the rights of native Jersey people as this would prove inconvenient to our relationship with the EU.
Maybe some politician reading these remarks will have the bottle to stand up and explain why such blatant racism is allowed to continue.
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Not sure what Quentin Smythe is trying to say but it sounds somewhat ignorant. He seems to be propounding some irreleavnt argument regarding taxation and housing. Taxation applies to all and pays for services. It does not confer any housing entitlement. Anyone who comes here will know the postion as indeed any of use who have been to Australia and elsewhere know the restrictions there. It sounds as though Mr Smythe is trying to suggest that the jerseyman should leave his own island. He speaks either from the aforesaid ignorance or he is simply trying to use this forum to stir up civil unrest.
Having said that taxation applies to all, one would imagine (and in fact one has heard of cases) where itinerant workers come here, get paid cash in hand to the detriment of the local person and then disappear hence without paying a pennt to the taxman…..
To return to the point, the matter which the letter writer raises is something which has been going on for a while and which is absolutely inexcusable and disgraceful.
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Rudolph Hooker – So what? The fact is that it would be held as racist to introduce work permits for EU nationals yet the EU deny Jersey people the same rights to work in the EU. Whilst we have such racist legislation preventing a Jersey person from seeking employment outside the Island [other than the UK] we must retain some level of job protection to the native Islanders. Other than political appeasement to the EU why should we allow EU citizens unrestricted access to our employment market? We are just a few square miles, what chance therefore have locals got when they are prevented from leaving by such laws. The Jersey person was sold out by the States in their negotiations with the EU. Unfortunately we still have no politicians prepared to stand up for the rights of the Jersey person.
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Work permits wouldn’t be racist; they would be a proportionate and valid response to an increasing and pernicious problem. Work permits and working visas are in place worldwide in states and countries much larger than Jersey (Australia, for example).
The “racist” nonsense argument is something which politicians might seize upon because they haven’t got the bottle to grasp the problem. Legally, I cannot see how work permits could be objectionable. The difficulty is that no-one has the courage to do anything about it. The result; discrimination against the local person and the onward spiral downwards of the island and the jerseyman.
Ironically, it is the “racist” (inverted commas used purposefully) angle which might actually save the day; when the race relations (Jersey) law comes into play, it will become unlawful to discriminate against jersey people in the manner experienced by the writer.
Although much of the present discrimination against locals will become more covert (the sort practiced by law firms, financial institutions and other sophisticated j category employers)and therefore less detectable, at least the crude, blatent and highly insulting brand experienced by the writer of the brave letter will be swiftly exposed and, I would hope, equally swiftly made subject to full and severe legal sanction.
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…I understand our new “human rights” law will also exclude any reference to the rights of native Jersey people as this would prove inconvenient to our relationship with the EU
Absolutely! why should it favoour “natives”? what is native anyway? if one is taxed one should have equal rights with the most native of natives. Equal right to housing, and privacy. Response to bigot misses the point entirely. No other place on earth persists with such a divisive method of residential apartheid. It is utterly deplorable and hopefully the new housing minister will rectify this despotic system.
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Let’s hope that Quintin is right and that the housing law (reduced now to 11 years anyway) will go very soon and be replaced equally soon by a very, very robust system of work permit. Quintin sounds bitter. He speaks of “our” law but he speaks like an incomer with chip on shoulder. If he is a jerseyman, he should be ashamed of himself! Taxes buy services; they don’t confer rights per se.
If I rent a house, I don’t expect to own it once I have paid rent for a few years.
Quintin’s opinion regarding the human rights law, which has been in force for years, seems incorrect and perhaps as misinformed as his other rather juandiced and narrow minded views. It’s interesting to hear the views, though. There is always one such person on any forum regarding the rights of the jerseyman, probably posted from some address outside the island anyway.
As an aside, does Quintin have experience of other countries when he holds forth that “No other place on earth persists with such a divisive method of residential apartheid” . has he lived in Iran? Afghanistan? Turkey? Cuba? Perhaps he would care to tell us the basis of his less than learned opinion.
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…..yet the EU deny Jersey people the same rights to work in the EU.
Well of course they do silly! because Jersey refuses to join the EU and harmonise with common EU standards. The answer is realy very simple indeed. Shed the “offshore/haven” status and accept EU conventions …or …remain aloof and out of touch. However, expect to be self sufficient and reliant, fiscally unpopular and potentially subject to sanction. You choose!!
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Quentin Smyth – so true!
I am convinced that if a non-locals tax rate is 13.1 % they would be taxed at 14%. If they were a local it would be conveniently found to be 13%.
This is the way this Island is run. One rule for the locals and one rule for non-locals -the if you don’t like it you can get the boat in the morning rule.
Where else in the world does a non-local have to pay higher rent than a local?
In Jersey a person who maintains worldly views is still classed as an immigrant after 40 years of living here.
In Jersey the Jersey people beleive they have a god given right to defend their land and all thats in it – not taking into account that it is an Island and has to have foreigners influx to sustain it and to create a healthy population.
It goes without saying that pirates used to lure boats onto the shores around Jersey with trickery and rob them. This tradition still goes on.
Please one of you answer the question why do non-locals have to pay higher rent than locals?
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sanity@36
Sorry, my point is that factually Helena is wrong as are you.
She, and you, can work in and abide in an EU country if you’re Jersey born and bred. OK so it’s the UK.
At no point do I mention anything about work permits being considered racist.
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7 and 8
Totally agree! I work with Polish occasionally, they cause less problems, have a lovely demeanour and generally work twice as hard – for the same wages (in my experience).
Leah – not sure where your place of work found your Polish staff, perhaps they need to strengthen their interview techniques. Certainly not inidicative of most businesses.
PJG “how hard they drink, and the resultant high amount of public orders problems they have bought to the island ?”
Are you mixing up the Polish with other nationalities?
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to 32 BS deluxe. Hungarian probably knows more about Jersey that you know about Hungary. They have world geography at school. Do you?
Sorry LOL my bad
anyway, i have to work with ”locals” born and bred. We worked for the same wage. When oportunity arised for promotion guess who was promoted?
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I am really curious as to why so many bitter and twisted people come to live in Jersey, you were not forced to come here kicking and screaming?
Why not go and work in placs like London/New York you will pay even higher rents and can buy a property, if you can afford it.
Hopefully our new Senator will bring up the work permit issue again as it was part of his campaign, which is why I voted for him.
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#43 Cathy, you should see what gets turned down
We do give people a chance to prove themselves but the last two years have been shocking for people who really do not expect to actually work (that goes for Poles, Madeirans and Jersey folk).
#18 Jo, you are totally right that the politicians are to blame. It’s a shame that there is any ‘blame’ because there shouldn’t even be an issue, it would be nice if people could just come and go around the world as they please, but such movement has always posed problems when it occurs en masse and that is what Governments need to manage better. Governments are meant to be voted in by the electorate for the electorate (of whatever nationality), they are not meant to be voted in to look after the interests of people who haven’t even set foot on the island yet (again, whatever nationality).
Jo, I have to admit, I do worry about how anything will change in Poland when people are leaving so fast. Change can only come through the people so I hope some are staying put and trying to make things better?
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“Think twice buy local”
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#42.
Sorry Rudolph, but I think that you are wrong. Don’t you know about the passports like Helena holds?
To those of you who wonder why people come to Jersey may I offer some possible reasons?
They have family or friends already serving time as “quallie wallies”.
They come for love (like Leah!)
They like the sea, the surf, the scenery, the horsey circle, golf, all easily accessible after work and at weekends.
They like the fact that you can survive as a dozy driver or just as a dumbo in general, as long as you have some money.
They enjoyed, until recently, not having to pay tax until the end of the year or not at all if they disappeared and then came back later to do the same again.
They are surrounded by others with extreme right wing views and enjoy being agreed with.
They enjoy living in a fools’ paradise.
That’s just the ones from the UK, as for why the Polish and Portuguese come? It is for the car boot sales stacked with goodies that only Jersey people were rich/daft enough to buy first hand!
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45 – overpopulated – sneering, snide comment. Please answer my question why do non locals have to pay higher rent than locals, and why do you allow this to go on?
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C Le Verdic@48
Sorry I’m right. Any Jersey folk born and bred in Jersey do have the right to reside and work in the UK regardless of what is in their passport.
Check it up on the UK government website.
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Toochin Cloff & Quentin Smythe – totally agree, the problem with the locals is that they want all of the benefits that an immigrant workforce brings ( cheap labour, experience not found locally etc ) and none of the disadvantages. They take for granted the services we provide, happily accept our tax and social and deny us rights to housing recognised under the convention of human rights.
They will happily tell you to leave if you don’t like it but would be totally stuffed if we did. They carp about being denied the right to work in Europe ( why in gods name they would want to is beyond me as they already live in one of the best places on earth ) yet they have chosen not to be part of Europe to maintain their priveleged offshore tax haven status.
I’ve been here 30 years and am still considered an outsider, doesn’t stop them from taking my money mind.
Welcome to the last bastion of racism in the western world.
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Born Warrior #23
I don’t know how you managed to translate my post to “there was no drunken violence before the Poles arrived” your leaps of imagination never cease to astound me.
I don’t know how long “you” actually spend in Jersey and whether you are speaking from experience or hearsay.
My experience from living full time in St Helier is that Polish immigrants to Jersey have a higher incidence of drink related public order problems per capita than other groups. On my not too infrequent trips to Krakow I have also noticed a culture of macho drinking, why else do they produce such strong spirits, have you tried it, no way is it for taste.
If have returned to Jersey from your isolated farm perhaps it is you who need to sit in the Magistrates’ court public benches and open “your” eyes.
Cathy #43
NO
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Sanity(34) Maybe some politician reading these remarks will have the bottle to stand up
Too true. Maybe Ian Gorst will do more than pay lip service to the problem. Cut benefit, get the locals back into work.
The Polish ‘gang masters’ have the place sown up.
Go on IAN GORST, try selling Social Security permits like the UK government is proposing.
Think local, employ local.
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PJG 52.
PJG, I was just winding you up…
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If people want a job they will find a job you just have to look. The problem is the society we live in today, The were better than that mentality is wrong. Its the same on the mainland, When all the bad jobs go that no one wanted people cry foul!
I was fired from my job many years ago, i found it very hard to find another so i ended up working in a local garden center moving the soil and plants for £130 a week (pre basic wage) all my friends said “what the hell are you working there for the money is cxxx”! well it kept me going until i found another job. Im not one to scrounge of the state.
What is needed is for some local people to lower there standards and to get there hands dirty once and a while, this is without turning down jobs because there not to there standard or the wage they want, then to start complaining when someone from another part of europe takes the position. If there not happy they should have taken the job in the first place, these days jobs arn’t for life like they used to be, jobs come and go, and a job is a job regardless.
One big thing to remember, the vast majority of us living on this wonderful island are immigrants anyway, the Jersey locals have been very welcoming to us all over the years. My parents are from the Mainland and i was born here. Im technicaly an immigrant myself as i hold a British passport,
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This is hardly surprising given how dated Jersey Employment Law is and the fact that it’s deliberately left outdated to encourage companies to set up in Jersey, pay peanuts and hire/fire staff at will.
Last year my partner was bullied by her boss (a director of a bank) shortly after informing him that she was pregnant. She stood up for herself following (expensive) legal advice and communications with JACS (“Just another crap service”).
However, as her boss was a director, the company only gave her grievance “lip service” and then they terminated her contract. All she got out of it was one week’s pay for every year she had been there as that is all the Jersey Employment Tribunal will award. In the UK she would have got a small fortune plus legal costs, and the director would almost certainly have been disciplined and/or sacked.
We looked at taking the case to a tribunal just to make a point and give the particular bank and the individual much unwanted publicity, only to be told that we would have to wait almost 6 months for a tribunal hearing and would not be awarded legal costs. What a farce, especially with the costs that Jersey lawyers charge!
Welcome to Jersey.
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Cheap labour destroyed South Africa, Israel and soon the UK. There should be a fair £10 per hour minimum wage.
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I’m thinking perhas the reason employers prefer non local people is that they are better at spelling!!!
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Rudolph Hooker #42/50 There is one vital point you may not know about. If one is Jersey born with both mother & father born in Jersey you do not have the right to work or live in the U.K or elsewhere and that is what is in my passport. If my father was born in the U.K then I would be entitled to live and work there.
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“Welcome to the last bastion of racism in the western world.”. Eh? How very ignorant. If it’s such a bad place then why, oh why, do outsiders remain?
That dealt with, we can perhaps look forward to someone new to sort out this mess. Step forward Senator-elect Le Gresley. How about dealing with this discrimination against the jerseyman? Thank you.
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13. Sarah
“misinformed and bigoted” Have you read your own post?
Still, you’re right, why should “immigrants” expect decent accommodation. After all, it will only make them turbulent, and then they might expect outrageous things like respect, fairness, tolerance and compassion. No, the lowest common denominator is always best option to follow. As long as accommodation in Jersey is not quite as bad as some places (which have a fraction of our wealth) that’s fine. What an inspiring thought for us all to ponder, what a glorious ideal!
24. bella
You object to people spending their OWN money on buying their OWN homes in their OWN country? What would you prefer, that their money be taken off them as they board the boat in the morning?
32. BS Deluxe
Lots of people have come to Jersey with very little over the years. Perhaps your ancestors did the same, unless of course you sprang fully formed from sacred soil of St Ouen.
35. Response to bigot
Ignorant presumably because you disagree.
In any respect, it’s a little rich to criticise some people for not paying their taxes bearing in mind the origin of much of Jersey’s wealth.
39.Monica Sfertleezmy
Your comment is the very epitome of impartiality, isn’t it Monica?
45.Overpopulated
Maybe they want to perfect their bitterness and twistededness, and have come to learn from the true masters!
57. Andy
Well, we’re in illustrious company anyway.
60. Jon
I know, I know! It’s because secretly “outsiders” are all masochists and love to suffer! Now that I’ve guessed the correct answer, can I be an “insider”…pleaaaaseeeeeeee?
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#51 Outsider, firstly, it’s not racism, not by the dictionary anyway. Secondly, as one whose partner cannot work in the EU I object to the suggestion that Jersey should have given in to blackmail (i.e. agree to be in the EU or else you’ll lose your rights to work in any EU country)
I, like many UK people, did not want to become part of the EU, we didn’t get a choice, our Government did it against our wishes. Then to top it off they screw over Jersey in the process. It was wrong and as a UK immigrant here I am embarrassed that it happened.
Democracy is not defined by “do it our way or we’ll enforce unjust practices on you”, that’s blackmail.
It’s quite simple, if a Polish passport holder can work in Jersey then my partner should be perfectly entitled to work in Poland, simple as.
Giving in to blackmail never goes well and that’s what choosing to become part of the EU JUST to be allowed to work within EU would have been.
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Helena@59
Sorry but you are wrong, this explains that anybody born and bred in Jersey is a British citzen and has the right to abide in the UK.
http://www.thisisjersey.com/community/government/european-community/
But for further clarification visit and have a good look around.
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/britishcitizenship/othernationality/Britishcitizenship/borninukorqualifyingterritory/#
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its the same at jersey post a states company there trying to get they ,loyal employees some have worked there all there lives out but want to re-employ at 30% less im asking the people of jersey dom what you did with SAFEWAY vote with your feet dont use these companys you can sort out birthday/christmas cards through internet much cheaper
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Andy, could you really do it to us all? Imagine farmers being made to pay £10 per hour of work of everyone they hire. How much would a bag of potatoes cost then???
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Sylvester Sneekly (immature name) has nothing to add to the debate. His or her contribution is limited to mimicking those who have contributed and to making silly and misinformed remarks. It is difficult to respond to his or he juvenile overtures because he or she clearly doesn’t know what he is talking about. Indeed, in popular parlance, it would appear to be the case that the message constitutes an example of “trolling”. Perhaps it would be better just to ignore the ignorance!
To return to the issue, we are dealing in this forum with discrimination against the jerseyman in the workplace. It is difficult to see how any right-minded person could countenance that.
In so far as that word “racism” might be relevant {an abused and overused term if ever there were one) it should be obvious to all that the person who wrote the letter has been subject to unfair treatment. This kind of thing would not go on in, for example, Australia and indeed it is difficult to imagine any country where the indiginous workforce is placed secondary to immigrant labour. EWen in France, an EU country with freedom of movement, it is notoriously difficult to find work because the Frech, like any other country (except, it would seem Jersey) strive to look after their own.
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I am not surprised that eastern european ‘migrant’ workers work hard and don’t complain, the money that they are earning here is at least doubled in value back in their home-land. I wish I could have the opportunity to do this in a beautiful place and then go home and live it up, you can’t blame them for that. In many cases most of the money these people earn does not go back into our economy and it is damaging to our island in many ways. It is obvious why some local businesses employ these migrants, they see the dollar signs flashing and that is why they are in business- To make as much money as possible with as little trouble as possible, irrespective of anything else. Unfortunately this is how many businesses in this day and age work, it is greed and a reflection on the societey of today, as an employee you are just a number with no soul, whether you are local or not!
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Rudolph Hooker # 63 I suggest you re-read the links you sent to me. It states clearly what I wrote in the first place. You can of course take the matter up with the Jersey Passport Office who will inform you.
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that’s right send them all home then we can import only 2/3rds of the food that comes in then pay of the other half of the air traffic controllers to follow the ones that are going as the airport will be empty then we can paint an paper all the dumps in jersey that people live in leave then all empty and get a part time job picking spuds to help with the mortgage as no rents coming in
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Well Helena my husband MUST have been working illegally in the uk when he lived there with me then. Because he worked full time and he is Jersey born and bred the same as his parents. You can work in the UK if you are a Jersey national and only hold a Jersey passport.
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Dear Rudolph,
Helena clearly stated “the EU”in her post #30 and did not at that stage openly mention the UK.
You introduced the UK into the discussion with your sarcastic comment “Last time I looked the UK was in the EU.”
You are, of course, correct although I suspect that many people tend to think of Europe as being separate from the UK and plenty feel that way as well.
You then had a go at Sanity @36 who in fact qualified his statement with “… seeking employment outside the Island [other than the UK]” He couldn’t have made it more bomproof.
Your link @63 reinforces what Sanity wrote but it doesn’t excuse your replies to Helena and to me when I supported her original statement.
Helena subsequently included the UK @59 and will no doubt be delighted at her good fortune when she follows your link so, to some some extent, you have atoned for your earlier stance.
Regardless of who is right or wrong on in this discussion, the current law favours the non British migrant worker coming to Jersey and discriminates against Channel Islanders and Manxmen (as defined)going to Europe and as such is bound to fuel resentment by those who lose out.
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70, SJ
‘You can work in the UK if you are a Jersey national and only hold a Jersey passport.’
Nobody asked to see my passport when I went to work in the UK., I could have gone there without owning one. However, I think that enough previous posters have explained that the UK is excepted in this regulation where these disadvantaged islanders are concerned.
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Roll on two things:
1. The Race Relations (Jersey) Law 20– which will outlaw discrimination against the Jersey people;
2. Work permits. Sooner rather than later. With senatorial elections in 18 months’ time, whoever puts this in the manifesto will be onto a landslide
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It’s a shame that peeps born here cannot get jobs, while peeps who come over here can. And this man from jersey lost his job while peeps from outside kept theirs. Someone in the states should look after the peeps in jersey and not keep on grovelling to peeps coming in from other places.
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66. Obitsred Kartinofsky
Some of my comments may (in your opinion) not have added to the debate, but then again it really wasn’t much of a debate. More like some sort of bizarre hang out for people with a persecution complex, and a desperate need to transfer their own feelings of inadequacy (can’t get a job/house/life) onto others.
The seriousness of my responses did vary, I’ll admit. That was because I was trying to mimic the level of absurdity/pomposity of the original messages (don’t worry, I wont even try to emulate yours). Still, the fact that you’ve decided to sulk rather than rebut any of my comments, speaks volumes about the coherence of your ideas. If you truly believe that the way to tackle discrimination is though discrimination, who am I to argue. If you can dismiss concepts like respect, fairness, tolerance and compassion as “silly and misinformed” then so be it.
I’m am glad, however, that you demonstrated your own maturity (very adroitly, I might add) by resorting to name-calling rather than reasoned debate. Name calling always was the first resort of children.
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Lee 67.
Just a few corrections
The money earned by Eastern Europeans has devalued in real terms at least 25% in the last few years.
The cost of televisions, white goods, windows, door knobs, screws, tractors, cars etc. etc. etc. in Poland, is up to 35% more expensive than in Jersey. Therefore, many Poles who are taking over family properties are upgrading them with goods bought in Jersey. (I am referring to Poles as I have the most knowledge of this group.)
As often accommodation comes with their employment and because of low overheads, many are spending hugely in the island and there is less leakage with their salaries than some of the more long standing Mediterranean workers.
Many local businesses employ Polish because of their strong work ethic, willingness to learn, initiative, strength of character and loyalty. All Polish that I know earn the same as their UK counterparts – shop assistants, farm-workers, Hospitality, Finance etc.
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greetings from glasgow ,,,ahhhhhhh good old jerseys still at it ,,
im so glad i left 2 years ago ,people do yourselves a favour and just leave ,,im now driving all over the uk and love it ,,id never come back to jsy ,,,not even for a holiday ,,theres too much here to see and enjoy ,,once you leave after a few months you never need to look back ,,the wages in the uk are now more than jersey ,after tax im earnin the same as i was in jersey ,,,ok the works different ,,ie nights back shift etc ,also money goes a lot longer here too ,,,but hey what view do you see in the mornings ,,the avenue with roadworks hahahaha ,,i get to see the mountains all times of the day ,,who says scotlands cold , ok i did see minus 13 last year but hey i got a 2009 new lorrie with a heater lol,im sittin here with 3rd degree burns nearly from my 4 day break lol,,,yea drivers here have to stick to certain hours a week ,,,,so as i said why are you bothered to stay ,,go and inhabit one of their countries and suck up there ecconomy,,, works both ways dont you think hahahahahahhahahaha,,,
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If the workers in question had been unionized, this would not have happened.
Although employers should always be free to choose the best candidates to fill their vacancies (regardless of race), they should not be free to get rid of ‘good’ workers in order to replace them with cheaper labour.
This type of behaviour causes inequality and job insecurity. And job insecurity, as we all know, forces workers to cut back on spending, which in turn greatly affects the local economy.
Therefore, employers should be ‘encouraged’ -by the States – to recognize a union when a certified majority of workers sign representation cards. As support of unionization would not simply be a step toward greater fairness in the workplace, but also a way of helping Jersey adapt to the influx of migrant workers in ways that protect its own workers’ livelihoods.
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**Helena
There is one vital point you may not know about. If one is Jersey born with both mother & father born in Jersey you do not have the right to work or live in the U.K or elsewhere and that is what is in my passport. If my father was born in the U.K then I would be entitled to live and work there**
This is what i was replying to, where Helena obviously stated about the UK,
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79 Are you saying that you can’t live and work in the U.K if you have the stamp in your passport?
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I also have that stamp in my passport. Why shouldn’t I have earned my right to own a home in Jersey? After all, I’ve paid my taxes, my parents have paid their taxes as have their parents. Why should somebody who has just arrived in the island have the right to own their own home? What would this do to property prices then? Of course, J-cat licences allow them that right. This is totally wrong and is unfair to people like me and those who have to do their 11 years! The housing law has always been used to control immigration as the States were too scared to put a proper immigration policy in place. This is totally wrong.
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Born Warrior #78
The big problem with unions is they bring all their members to the level of the worst workers.
Unions set pay rates for the job a person is hired to do not how well the person does it, no doubt relying on the maxim that all men (and women) are equal.
This argument is upset by the fact some are more loyal and work harder than others.
The unions do not argue for better rates for the better worker so we end up with the good workers saying why should I work so hard if I only get paid the same as the slackers.
bearing in mind what I have just said how can unionisation be “a step toward greater fairness in the workplace” ?
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PJG 82.
Unions do not select the workers, they protect the workers.
Poor worker-performance is due to poor selection techniques and lack of motivation…problems employers must tackle, not the unions.
Employers have the right and opportunity to select the best job applicants, but they also have the duty to provide proper motivation and incentives (that is, if they wish to keep the performance of their workforce at a high level). Employers should reward good/loyal workers with promotion and bonuses when they achieve high levels of efficiency…a satisfied workforce is a good workforce.
With regard your question: “…how can unionization be a step toward greater fairness in the workplace?”
I think the answer is in the letter above, no union would ever have allowed the employer in question to get rid of two good workers in order to employ cheaper labour. In the same way as they would not allow mobbing or ‘last in, last out’ scenarios in the event of redundancies…seems pretty fair to me.
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Born Warrior #83
You say “Employers should reward good/loyal workers with promotion and bonuses when they achieve high levels of efficiency”
Do you mean promotion as in more managers to watch over the lazy workers. Sounds like the way health are tackling their overspend.
Unions agreeing to productivity bonuses, ones that actually bear some relevance to how well the job is done, can you give some examples of this ? And not ones where just turning up to work means a bonus payment I mean ones where an idividuals productivity actualy have some bearing on their reward.
What good are selection techniques when a unionised company can not compete with the remuneration offered by a non union company ?
A good worker needs no union he/she will always be in demand and command higher than average wages. A good current example of this is digging machine operators, good operators are in demand and command high rates of pay.
Its the non union companies that are paying the best wages and therefore have the best operators. The unionised companies have to make do with what’s left as they cant pay above union agreed rates, and what’s the use of promoting a good operator to a desk ?
Your last “appears”? to be advocating protectionism, the removal of competition for the best jobs, keeping the jobs for life, dead mans shoes etc. (this is what unions do best, remove competition) why should last in last out be the order of the day, surely its up to an employer to always have the right man in the right job, and if a mans work deteriorates the ultimate sanction of replacing him should always be available.
Surely competition in the workplace is healthy ?
Protecting the worker should be the function of an elected government not a minority banding together and making threats of bankrupting employers if they don’t get their way (read BA for bankrupting employers and teachers for jeopardising the future lives of our children).
If an employer does not pay reasonable rates or have reasonable conditions, tell him to stick his job where the sun don’t shine, if you are good at your job you will be listened to.
Is this not what you said about your job and why you can command high wages ?
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@Cathy #76
I was curious about your comment that goods cost “up to 35% more” in Poland so did a quick google and found the following:
Examples, Sony KDL-32EX401 TV from Fotosound Jersey costs £400. In Poland it costs approx 1800PLN which is £372.
Ford Focus 3 Door 1.6, UK Price £13,595 (can’t find a Jersey Price), Poland, approx 60,000PLN which is £12,394.
Maybe it’s the screws and tractors that cost more?
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76. Cathy
So good of you to educate us all. Thank you.
77. Paul.
Good for you. It obviously didn’t suit you and you realised that, like all non-locals, you don’t have to stay here. Well done!
78. Born Warrier.
Do you like closed shops then? Only joking honestly.
79. SJ.
Oh, what a pity
81. Amanda
As you might have gathered, I and my ilk don’t give a hoot about Jersey people. Even if I do live here, I am happy to be a fifth columnist and to contribute to the eventual downfall of the island. Maybe I have attended too many sociology lectures, hence the talk of “fairness and compassion”, although not to the local workforce! Given time, I might recognise a more adult way of thinking.
As you also might have gathered, I don’t have a problem with casual immigrant workers doing cash in hand and not paying tax, even though it is illegal. Again, given time, I might realise the damage which this causes to the economy.
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Can you lot read? YES YOU CAN WORK IN THE UK WITH THAT STAMP
I was quoting Helena who was saying you can’t.
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Market Forces dear boy, market forces, they will always prevail. Regardless of race, creed or background any employer will always make a judgment that works in his favour.
The message is simple if you are better than your counterpart you will be employed. Jersey people can’t expect to be employed just because they are from Jersey. Jersey people need to up their game and not rely on their citizenship for employment.
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PJG 84.
I didn’t mean that employers should invent supervisory or management positions. I meant that when such jobs become available, employers should first consider in-house recruitment before bringing new people in. If companies adopt a ‘New-Blood-Only’ attitude, workers will believe their ‘talents’ are being overlooked and will stop trying.
As for bonuses, unfortunately, I know little about the implementation of productivity bonuses outside my sphere. But I know one thing, when a project team gets all the documentation drafted and translated before, let’s say, a new machine or system goes to commissioning (not easy because R&D more often than not improve/change apparatus features at the last minute), there’s an interesting bonus in it, so the team pulls together…for the bonus and for team success/satisfaction .
Re: “a good worker needs no union he/she will always be in demand and command higher than average wages”
Well, that’s only true in the skilled/professional arena, because just how good can a person who moves boxes in a storeroom prove himself to be? OK, smart, honest worker, good timekeeper and…er…OOOPS, there’s nothing else! So, how can workers in similar jobs prove their worth and attain leverage?
Re: “What good are selection techniques when a unionised company cannot compete with the remuneration offered by a non-union company?
There are always interviewees and the employer must choose the best. An astute employer knows how important it is to create a team and looks for qualities that will fit in with the group. An unstructured interview with no focused flow will get inconsistent responses and thus confuse the interviewer…outcome, bad choice!.
And No! I don’t believe in closed-shop unions, nor in job-for-life scenarios. I believe in fair treatment in the workplace (for migrant and local workers alike). Bad/Poor-performance workers should be dismissed – States workers included.
But remember, the unions do not select States workers. So, if there are too many and some of them are not up to scratch, blame the States not the unions.
Just one more thing, migrant workers are needed (there’s no doubt about that) and when work gets even thinner on the ground, more people will be willing to accept below-the-going-rate wages, simply because they have to eat. So just how can Jersey stop further unfair dismissals such as the one above?
P.S. I totally agree with you regarding the Health’s absurd method of tackling their overspend…but that’s management for you!
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Thanks Arthur B. A good bit of research there. A number of posters like to hold forth and put forward incorrect or false information. One of the dangers of a free forum I suppose. Obviously one piece of false information puts the veracity of the entire message in doubt. Amazing really how many people seem to think that what the writer of the letter encountered is perfectly acceptable. One can only assume that the puritanical attitude would change were one to be on the receiving end of such treatment in their own country.
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Born Warrior #89
“Well, that’s only true in the skilled/professional arena, because just how good can a person who moves boxes in a storeroom prove himself to be? OK, smart, honest worker, good timekeeper and…er…OOOPS, there’s nothing else! So, how can workers in similar jobs prove their worth and attain leverage?”
And you once accused me of being a job snob!
Initiative, accuracy, working without supervision, quick learning, a “can do” rather than why it cant be done attitude, an understanding of H&S, team worker, Need I go on.
All of these qualities are not recognised by a union, the pay for the box mover is the same for those who performed well during their probationary period and then became the lazy I got good reasons why it cant be done attitude, usually brought on by the why should I work hard when he isn’t observation (you try sacking a union member who plays the barrack room lawyer “I will just do enough to avoid a disciplinary)and those good workers I mentioned above. Where is the incentive to do well ?
The union sets a rate for box movers.
whether they are good box movers or bad box movers the union agrees the rate for the position, not for how well the job is done.
Remember you need boxes moved so what’s the point of promoting the good box mover to a job where his box moving skills will not be used. (bad management).
Bonus you might say, you just try and get a union to agree a rate where a man is paid by the amount of boxes he moves.
By the way it wasn’t me that mentioned closed shops, thankfully they are not legal in Jersey anymore, against human rights apparently.
I stand by what I said, the unions only protect the lazy.
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PJG
For goodness sake, a person who moves boxes in a storeroom cannot be a team leader! The rest can be filed under smart.
And there was no snobbery in my remark, in fact, I said: “So, how can workers in similar jobs prove their worth and attain leverage?”
I was referring to the lack of opportunity such workers have of showing the natural skills they possess…the tasks they undertake and their workplace just don’t allow them to ‘shine’.
By the way, you didn’t answer my question: “So just how can Jersey stop further unfair dismissals such as the one above?”
Ey, and guess what, I stand by what I said too!
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#88 Dan, did you miss the entire point of the letter? Or are you seriously assuming that the local worker wasn’t every bit as good as the Poles? This is not the only place where Poles are intentionally only employing Poles! I have also heard a Madeiran admit that when they get promoted to Manager they will only employ Madeirans.
It isn’t about the employer doing what is best for him or his business, it is just out and out “I’ll stick to my own” mentality, Poles and Madeirans have it every bit as much as any other nationality.
Best person for the job? I don’t think so!
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Good post Leah Holmes at 93.
“Best person for the job? I don’t think so!” seems to sum it up very well. Dan might think differently if he had experienced this sort of thing first hand.
Quite right, the Poles and the Madeirans should and indeed do look after their own, in Poland and Madeira, not here thank you. If you went to Poland or Madeira and suggested that a Jersey person should take employment precedence over one of their own countrymen you would hear the laughter from here
Yet, for some reason, certain elements in Jersey tolerate this perverse form of discrimination. There must be (well, we know that there are) a lot of weak people running this island.
It is obvious that something approaching criminal activity (if not actual criminal activity) is going on with the flagrant and apparently routine breach of the reg of undertakings law and of other employment laws. Well, we all know that it goes on. The question is, who will be the first to stamp it out? Francis le Gresley, if you are reading this, we need you!
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Born Warrior #92
OH yes I did, read my #84
“Protecting the worker should be the function of an elected government not a minority banding together and making threats”
I would most definitely not take your “might is right” approach.
I think the carrot and stick method works both ways
Also I would investigate after reading such a statement before making a judgment, how about you?
Box movers?
As you travel quite a lot. Think baggage handlers at airports.
Are they all the same or are there good ones and bad ones? (ever lost, or had your bags damaged)
If there are, then there must be a certain amount of skill / attitude involved.
Now you answer this.
How do unions allow the good ones to be rewarded without promoting them to a desk and stopping the boxs being moved?
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“Protecting the worker should be the function of an elected government not a minority banding together and making threats”
A nice idea but in Jersey it is still legal to discriminate on the grounds of race, sex, etc in employment but the States have been talking about changing the law for over thirty years!
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PJG 95.
Re:”Protecting the worker should be the function of an elected government”
Oh, sorry, my apologies, I thought that was just another one of those ‘government-should-do-this-or-government-should-do-that’ remarks.
Having said that, the government is doing nothing at present, so what do you suggest workers do to protect their livelihoods? Do you think they should just bow their heads and take what is thrown at them…in this case “The Sack!”
As I said earlier, the tasks certain workers udertake and their workplace (in your example – bag handlers) simply don’t allow them to express their true potential. Therefore, the unions must try to get better pay and conditions for such workers – good and bad. But please remember, employers select the workers not the unions. So, if bad employees benefit from the work of good ones, blame the employers. Furthermore, unions are not against promotions for good workers, nor are they against performance-based discipline for bad ones.
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Born Warrior #97
“nor are they against performance-based discipline for bad ones”
So long as they ( the unions ) don’t have to foot the bill for this (I.M.O.)expensive process.
John Day, Graham Power? Who ends up paying for this ? The end user.
As I said before It must be better for all involved for an employer to be able to use a carrot as well as a stick, collective bargaining without performance incentives takes this (I.M.O.) essential tool away from the them. Take the teachers, their pay increases £1000 per year just for being there no matter what their performance. Where is the incentive to perform well ?
“Do you think they should just bow their heads and take what is thrown at them…in this case “The Sack!””
NO ! do the same as you,
make themselves indispensible , good looking and intelligent.
Pip Clement#96
As you say “A nice idea”
Much better than having the union minority beating us all with their big stick.
We live in a democracy, maybe it will change?
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PJG 98
Re: “We live in a democracy…”
No, we don’t! We live in a “Dough-ocracy”, where greedy employers treat workers as little more than disposable assets!
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