Housing in call for means-test
Tuesday 22nd June 2010, 3:00PM BST.
Housing Minister Sean Power
STATES tenants should be means-tested to stop homes being given to people who do not deserve them, the new Housing Minister said yesterday.
Deputy Sean Power, who has been in office for just two weeks, said that many States tenants in social housing should not be there.
‘We need to create more affordable housing and we need to means-test,’ he said. ‘Means-testing is a casualty of Income Support, because before that benefit came in we were aware of most of our clients’ incomes.
‘I also think that we are housing people who we shouldn’t be housing, and that is why I am in favour of means-testing.’
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You mean it’s not means tested already? I’m speechless, what is the criteria then for obtaining states accommodation?
This is a safety net for those unable to afford to house themselves not a cheap option for people who would rather pi** away their money on booze, fags, holidays and other extravagancies.
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I agree completely.
If we are going to subsidise people at least make sure they are the ones who need it
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OK Mr Power, this is more like it. Drop the crazy scheme to subsidise the housing market and look at the rental sector, but only one bright idea at a time. Please.
Maybe you could talk with your fellow Ministers and get a joined up approach. Commercial level rents for all with the means tested subsidy coming via welfare, it is required at all.
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Well done Sean Power! There is only one reason as to why States tenants park their Mercs and speedboats in front of their houses – the answer is because they’re not short of money. Social housing should be for the needy, not those earning hign salaries.
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Blimey,
Cha ching an old good idea hits the headlines again!
But will it be acted on this time ?
Or will we have to wait untill some one else thinks this is a good idea another ten years down the road ?
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If this means that those who live in States rental accommodation pulling in a good wage and driving around in brand new cars, the likes of which I can’t afford will be told to move into the private sector then well thought of Mr Power,
It’s also time to look into moving on older couples who still occupy 3 bedroom accommodation with no children at home.
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I totally agree with Ewan Mee # 1.(Nick?) We’ve known for years that there are folk in States Housing who have holiday homes in France. The States have been wasting our money for years – no wonder Jersey is in the mess it is in today.
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when we took out
a states loan we had to prove we had paid up all income tax and other utensil bills for the last 3 years.
They took a quarter of our earnings at a rate of 10% for the whole duration,even though the banks had dropped half-way through to 4%.
Also had to put a big deposit down (which I borrowed)
I was so hacked off for years of trying to make ends meet at one time i tried to pull out and give them back the house however I battled on and so glad I didn’t throw the towel in.
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So they are asked to move out and then will claim a rent subsidy !
It is those on a rent subsidy who should also be means tested – as i know quite a few who are laughing under the system !
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obviously we’re doing something wrong. We live in states housing, drive an old banger of a car and can barely afford a holiday to the uk!
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About time, but will it happen and when will it happen…..
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S.J. # 10 – I am sure that there are many people who are rightfully in States accommodation, but there are equally as many who take the wee wee. They are letting everyone down including the people who deserve States support.
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Barely a week in office and already doing great things, thankyou Sean Power – could not agree more.
My wife and myself together with our six-year-old daughter occupy a flat on the third floor of an apartment in St Helier. There are many others with young children in flats, and I think every person would agree that this is hardly a good upbringing for youngsters. OK well fair enough beggars can’t be choosers and there are not enough houses to go round – however, there are four ground-floor houses where I live and every one of them is occupied by old people whose children have all grown up and moved on. Time for them to be moved into smaller places and their houses given up for the younger ones that would benefit from it!
As mentioned, there are often expensive cars and even boats in Housing dept carparks – yet these places are supposed to be for the needy?! It’s well-known that if you want to see the best christmas lights, you take a drive around the Housing estates – that’s where you’ll find the people with money to spare. Nicholson Park and Clos Gosset spring to mind, the best christmas displays in the island, thousands of pounds have clearly been spent.
For the record, I work in banking and one of our clients lives in Housing yet she currently has £50,000 yes FIFTY THOUSAND pounds invested in a long-term growth deposit. Meanwhile, whilst these scavenging people enjoy their low rental subsidised houses, children in the island grow restless forced to spend their entire childhooods stuck in tiny flats.
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Hugh Janus – Not me, someone’s plagiarised my witty pseudonym. Is nothing sacred?
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Hooray – hopefully those clogging up the system will be moved on so i can be housed… I thought the whole point of Housing dept. only gave accomadation to those who are desparately in need! Obviously not!
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“We will not normally house people who earn more than a certain income level. This is currently set at a joint income of £40,000 per year.”
This is one of the critirea required by Housing.
So is the Minister telling us that this is not been policed? if not why?
If its policy then why are they not investigating the tenants already?
Its not just the higher earners they should be looking at but also all those tenants who are now on their own as the family/kids have moved on. There singles and couples living in 2 or 3 bedroom houses/flats that could be freed up for proper families.
The States are using the saying ‘Invest to Save’ well invest in 2 staff to go around and inspect all of the propertys and access the tenants. It may take a few years but would release much needed rental units. I would apply with all the perks!!!!
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sorry——–put above post on wrong site.
I think the rents for housing are far too high to begin with.
friends of mine pay £145 for 1 bedroom tiny flat for 2 no room to eat in kitchen,very small front room and no balcony or outside space.
IMO these rents are far too dear but that’s jersey all over.
I,m sure many living in these flats would be able to pay full rent if they were set at a realistic price.
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I live in States Housing with my Jersey born wife and three Jersey born children – all of them are doing well at school and are future tax-payers.
We are already heavily means-tested through Social Security who pay a large chunk of the housing rent on our behalf.
But without states housing we couldn’t afford to live in the Island. We just amount manage to cover rent, bills, food, clothes and all the little bits schools in Jersey ask you to contribute.
We don’t drive (can’t afford a car), walk everywhere (can’t afford busses all the time) and can never go to England to visit my family because of the cost.
If it wasn’t for help from my parents and my wifes parents we wouldn’t be able to afford to live in the island at all – or the UK for that matter.
If the island was so inherently expensive we might find ourselves in a better position without relying on Government help.
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Most people posting on here have congratulated Sean Power because, so they say, there are loads of people living in States housing who are caked up, e.g. have Mercs and boats.
So I ask this question in all seriousness – what facts do you guys (or anyone else for that matter) have to support such statments? I’m not having a pop, I would genuinely like to know because it sounds too good to be true. And if it is true how come everyone else haven’t cottoned on to this idea??
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I know a women who got divorced, claimed half the money from sale of house,half of ex husbands pension and gets maintenance for the four children.
Now lives in States housing has over 95,000 pounds in the bank and takes three holidays a year.
They need to get a grip on these people.
Jon no.18 if you have been struggling with your bills for years, why have 3 children?
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Isn’t the Housing department the one deemed to be “not fit for purpose”?
Has the minister known as Sean detailed how he is going to resolve this issue or just ignore the report and hope it goes away?
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Jon, Whilst I sympathise with your situation I have one question to ask, if you are so reliant on help from government and family why did you bring 3 children in to this world that you are freely admitting that you cannot support?
This is a huge social problem not unique to Jersey but still a frustrating one, I acknowledge thatthey are all potentially future tax payers but should they follow your example then they will become 3 more burdens on the state!
I am sure I could not get the government to pay for a nice new car for me or a holiday abroad because I want one but you seem content for the government to assist in paying for your children!
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TB I know a couple in States who had saved £60k towards a first time buyers home because in their words “we worked the system and having been paying minimum rent for years”
Hope that helps!
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Sorry Euan Mee I’m the theif, didn’t know the name was taken, I’ll find another.
13 pseudonym – children in the island grow restless forced to spend their entire childhooods stuck in tiny flats.
Yes because their stupid parents chose to have children that they couldn’t afford to house properly, no doubt assuming that the state ( taxpayer ) would bail them out for their selfish mistake.
Having children is a lifestyle choice, I’ve never understood why we subsidise it with tax breaks and accommodation. Meantime those of us who are more responsible pay extra tax to pay for their kids. If I chose to buy an expensive car could I expect the state to pay towards the running costs.
Jon comment 18 – again why have you ahd children that you can’t afford to house and why am I paying for it ( along with other responsible taxpayers )
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Jon comment 19 – although i am sort of sympathetic with your current situation…it was your choice to have 3 children, like most people, you should have means tested yourself ie. can you afford to have children!
Which you clearly can’t, why should you receive rent subisdy/states help.
I have one child, because i can only afford to look after one child.
It’s very simple but unfortunately you are a prime example of what’s wrong with our society.
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Comment 18 – sorry!
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Fair play Mr Power. I think its about time too, i have been in and around some of the housing estates and have seen many a nice car,
don’t get me wrong i don’t begrudge anyone having a new car, but it takes the pi** when they are also getting rent rebate and states housing on top of that, kinda puts salt in the wound, and let face it it’s just not fair,this will now help families othere trying to get on the housing list, but not only does this help the families but they best thing thing is to get them away from the greedy landlords.
Bella- you must be kidding yeah? all you have to do is look in the JEP and you’ll see in most places that you only get is a bedroom! for this, your friend has a flat, own front door, come and go as she/he pleases, i’m sorry but your friend is luckly, i was renting a room for £100pw and the room was only able to fit a single bed in there, some people don’t know how luckly they are.
I really do hope Mr Power that you get all the support possible to help as many people as you can, we need more people like your good self running our island.
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It is good to see the newly appointed housing minister is an expert on social housing, here we go again!!!
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TB
Go and visit any housing estate in the evening, like Fb Cottages where you will see three Lexus cars outside one address. Ok, maybe it is a taxi business but I’d be surpirsed if someone has the collateral to afford a loan and still fit the criteria.
I’ve been in houses on all the estates and became immune to the widescreen TV’s, Mercs, PS2′s and looked at the fading Caribbean tans of the oh-so-hard-up tenants when they came back from the pub.
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Fake You & Me # 24. We can not and indeed should not question a person’s right to have a family. It’s up to Jon # 18 how he lives his life.
The problem is with the people in ‘non jobs’ in States Departments siphoning away the money that makes everyone else in the Island less well off.
I understand that rather than cut down on the number of senior officers in the cops, they have swelled their ranks – how does that save money. The Island needs to make cuts not increase spending.
More needs to be done to stop the profiteering by land lords to give people who can not afford their own homes a better chance of moving out of States accommodation.
Also the people need to be rewarded for what they actually do and not what some job description says they are supposed to do.
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Bella comment 17 –
I think the rents for housing are far too high to begin with.
friends of mine pay £145 for 1 bedroom tiny flat for 2 no room to eat in kitchen,very small front room and no balcony or outside space.
IMO these rents are far too dear but that’s jersey all over.
I,m sure many living in these flats would be able to pay full rent if they were set at a realistic price.
I’m a professional property manager and I can assure you that states rents are significantly below market rate in the private sector. £145 per week would not secure a 1 bedroom flat, perhaps a studio but you’d be looking at between £25 – £50 per week more for a 1 bed. You also have much greater security of tenure, there’s no deposit and you have to be way behind with the rent to get thrown out, I suspect this is nigh on impossible.
As for “I,m sure many living in these flats would be able to pay full rent if they were set at a realistic price”
Having established that the prices are below market rate already what would you have the states do, subsidise further?
You might as well say I could afford a Porsche if only they were cheaper – meaningless isn’t it.
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Just walking through the luxurious Victoria Place at the Waterfront the other lunchtime, there was about 15 tanned people enjoying the sun, having a bbq, watching the football, all drinking and smoking…yet they can’t go out and work!!
They enjoy free parking in town, a fantastic view over the Marina…
IF CARLSBERG MADE COUNCIL ESTATES!!!
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Why don’t those in States housing contribute towards the upkeep and repairs of their accommodation, afterall they should take pride in their subsidised surroundings.
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I know a few people who live in states housing, and while I doubt they earn more than the 40k ceiling they do have nice cars, big TVs and the like. It does make me wonder that maybe the 40k ceiling is too high for the amount of rent rebate they receive? I know that 40k per household is not a lot but the amount of rent rebate they receive plainly leaves them enough spare cash for luxury items. I am not coming from a jealously angle here, I have enough spare income after my mortgage and bills to afford the same as them, but I do begrudge the fact that a portion of my tax and SSEC is going towards this. I think Powers means test idea is fair but really just a smoke screen, there is a test in place but it does not work…can you see them lowering the amount though? There will always be a need for social housing but we as a society need to know that those using it are in such a position that they cannot live in the private sector housing, and big cars and bigger TVs will forever leave us asking what is going on….
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30 Hugh Janus “Fake You & Me # 24. We can not and indeed should not question a person’s right to have a family. It’s up to Jon # 18 how he lives his life”.
I couldn’t agree more, but when he expects me and other taxpayers to pay for it I take issue.
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33, they do – it’s in the form of rent same as the private sector. The majority of private and states tenants take great pride in their homes, with plants and outside ornaments. Their lease will let them do little else.
As for means testing, I’m all for it.
Those that need help should get it and when their circumstances change for the better and they can support themselves again – go to the private sector.
Housing does need to go one step further, there is some rental property in the private sector that is not habitable, or extortionate rent is charged – Housing should look at this first and bring in a fair rent scheme, then you will see a shift away from states property.
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Jambo @ 32, its not states property so whats the problem?
The parking is not free, they pay for it in form of rental for their flat. And if you are walking through victoria place and all the flats have a harbour view – thought half have a veiw of the underpass, unless you are talking about Albert Place flats which are privately owned.
And before any comments, I don’t live there, but I sure as hell know friends in Albert Place flats.
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States employees enjoy cut price membership in Jersey’s leisure centres. Hard working property owners pay full price.
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Being a local person who grew up on a states housing estate and between me an my husband worked up to 17 hours a day to buy a house – with no help from anyone – i am fed up of the people who do not need subsidised states housing -which tarnishes those that do. yes, there are those who have xpensive cars, french properties, cars, motorbikes etc and who dont pay the rent for a couple of weeks to buy these toys – the holidays to the maldives, etc – but surely it is the states housing department’s fault for letting them get away with it??? do they not visit the estates, or speak to the people when they get into rent arrear? surely, the highly paid, educated people who are employed can see who the disgusting scammers are??? There are plenty fo children who would love a garden, but these are normally being taken up with those who have adult children who are working, or are away on holiday for much of the summer. OR IS IT that these people usually keep their heads down low so that no-one will find out their ‘perks’ and cause no trouble??? It amazes me that some of the people on sickness benefit etc are so obese they have ground floor flats, or large houses with gardens and ride on mobility scooters – where do they get the money to buy all of that food etc?? For God’s sake, let there be a shake up for the good of all – and mostly for the people who pay, the taxpayer – most of whom pay for their own childcare so that they can go to work so that they can have a bit of pride in themselves and move up.
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To all those who criticise Jon (No. 18) for having three children – shame on you. Perhaps the poor should be forcably steralised and then Jersey could be a nice place with just rich people and their imported Portuguese and Polish servants. It’s people like you who make me sick of Jersey!
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I hope our government are reading the UK emergency hudget= they are going to cut back massively on welfare payments including the rent rebate equilivant.
Jersey cannot afford it’s welfare payments either.
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#24 “Having children is a lifestyle choice”. Er, no. I think you’ll find it’s a human right as defined in the European Convention on Human Rights to which Jersey has signed up.
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What annoys me is those people who have their nice big mansions in their native part of the world and come to Jersey for housing. Why dont they sell their mansions in their native part of the world and buy something where they are actually living. I am portuguese and my mum never had a house in Madeira when she came to Jersey but we know people who have lots of money in their home land bank accounts and mansions and then come to Jersey and live in the states.
My aunty has just had a baby.. Shes doesnt own any property and generally has little money yet she is living in single bed sit with her partner and a baby. OK you could say she should have thought about that before having a baby but what about those who have 3 bed states houses nice cars and pay very little rent because they cant be bothered to work on top of that some people have 3 bed states houses and only have 2 rooms occupied and use the third room as a play room for their kids – what is that, states Luxury house ??? ..
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PJ – If it’s not states owned, then who owns it?? I think you’ll find it is states owned.
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I know someone who lives in Victoria place who pays £40 a week for a 2 bedroom flat and an underground parking space, the rent is clearly subsidized by the States. So as far as i’m concerned, it’s states housing!
They don’t work, but yet they can afford all these luxuries of smoking, drinking, a car and several children etc…
What a complete joke! As you clearly stand up for these people, i needn’t bother questioning where you live or whether or not you are a States scrounger!!!
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Fake You & Me # 35. Yeah, Jon (# 18) doesn’t mention whether or not he has a job or what he does. Let’s presume he is employed; we all know that wages in Jersey can be pretty poor and so I see no harm in my tax helping him bring up his children and I’d feel the same if you were in the same position.
What upsets me is that there are many in States Departments who are paid far more than they are worth, which leaves less money in the coffers for those that need social assistance.
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Personally I think we should just means test people before they are allowed to have children.
To me it’s just common sense, if you can’t afford to have children then you shouldn’t have them. I really can’t understand why people don’t get it, it’s obvious that people must think that the world owes them a roof over their head.
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Perhaps a way of housing making savings would be to require states tennants upkeep their subsidised homes and communal areas, like the rest of us. That way even the unemployed would make a contribution.
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Re Brian #42. Yes you do have a right to have a family, what you don’t have in my book, is the right to expect everyone else to pay for your right. Perhaps only have children if you can afford them!
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I must say I am not impressed by these “means testing before having children” comments.
Whilst I agree that if possible you should consider your financial situation until you have a baby, it is not always possible.
If someone is from a poor background and has little chance of changing their situation, does that mean they should not be allowed to have childer? That they should be denied that basic human right? To think that is extremely elitist, and in my opinion, sick.
And before people think that this comes from personal experience, it doesn’t.
I am in full time employment and live quite comfortably. As much as I’d like to have children now, my partner is shortly leaving to do a further education course, and we both know this will be a financial strain, and therefore not the time to start a family.
That does not, however, mean that if I was poor I would wait forever.
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BR 47 & Seawitch 48 – totally agree you shouldn’t have children unless you can afford to pay for them. I’m tired of paying more tax than people who have kids so that their kids can enjoy education and healthcare paid for by my taxes, they should pay more not less as they are taking more from the system.
Hugh Janus 46 – I don’t care if he has a job or not, he shouldn’t have kids if he can’t afford them. If you want to contribute fine, I shouldn’t be made to.
We wouldn’t be in the financial black hole if we weren’t paying so much in benefits and subsidies to those that don’t need them or chose to place themselves in their current situations.
By all means assist those in genuine need but not if they chose the situation they are in.
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31
You must be right if you deal in property.
Trouble is I keep comparing rents to UK.
Relative of mine pays £90 for 2bed flat twice as big with garden and reckon the council is ripping him off!
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Mr Power should be looking at the many women who live in housing and claim be a single parent and pay minimum rent. Yet they often have a partner living with them who works full time. Terry Le Main admitted not so long ago the the Housing department employs only has person in charge of frauds committed for the whole housing stock.
Very little chance of anyone being caught
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Bella 52 sure I don’t doubt it, my brother has just bought a 3 bedroom semi in the UK for £132,000 and is complaining about his mortgage of £600pcm ( he put a significant deposit down )
You can rent a 3 bed house for £500pcm, but salaries are less and it’s Northern England, I wouldn’t go back.
You pay a premium for living in Jersey because it’s a desirable place to live, London prices aren’t far off and I know which I prefer ( 3 hour commute anyone )
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Anon (50) ”
If someone is from a poor background and has little chance of changing their situation, does that mean they should not be allowed to have childer? That they should be denied that basic human right?”
Yes, that is exactly what it means.
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bella 52 – do people in the UK compare their rents to third world countries and complain at the difference. I would guess not as most would not want to live in the third world. Same applies in Jersey with respect to the UK.
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Tax payers should not be paying anymore than the bare essentials for survival when people cannot afford to pay for the necessary feed/clothing/shelter/heating to keep them alive – otherwise, as we can see there is no motivation to move on and out, they’re getting a wage uplift, paid for by you and me.
Those of us that have actually paid our own way, saved, thought about how may kids we had and could afford are sick and tired of funding those who don’t.
When my wife needed help on being made redundant, she got zero help from the States – but she’d saved, I’d saved, we muddled through, no one paid my mortgage or gave two hoots and still (and I don’t think I’ll ever forgive the States for this) they wanted the social security payments from her to pay for others benefits!
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I chose not to have children as I could not afford too, but what do I gain from it?? nothing. Don’t make sense!!
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Jambo @ 44 & 45
Do your home work, it is not states owned. It is owned by Brunel Management ltd, who purchased this from the states as far back as 2003.
Several children in a 2 bed flat, they are been ripped off if they have to pay £40 a week in subsidised rent, most wouldn’t have to pay a thing! No wonder they can’t work though, a full time job in its self bringing up several children, but the states would have given that person a far bigger house with at least 5 bedrooms with all en-suit, need I say more, I think it is you that has been drinking, you must be seeing double or exaggerating pity the person that you know, I’m sure they love seeing your post!
A few other posts here need to remember not everyone went in to states housing then had children, some fell on hard times recently with job cuts etc, I’m sure they factored in birth control when they where secure in a job paying their way!!!!!! Sounds like a lot of bar-humbug here!
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Fake Ewan Mee # 51 – You are all heart buddy. You don’t know Jon’s circumstances; maybe he was in a job where he could afford to have a family and then became redundant because of the recession.
I hope that your circumstances don’t change where you find yourself in simialr circumstances. Then maybe you’d have a different attitude.
By the way, I am not a bleeding heart – I agree that there are too many people on benefits who should not be, however you can not generalise – there are exceptions to the rule.
What is needed is better management of the system and the prosecution of people who commit benefit fraud, to deter abuse of the scheme.
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Reading all of the above comments I have noticed that the ceiling limit for rent subsidy is £40k ? Does that mean you get subsidy if you earn under that ?
I am a single parent(after divorcing over 10 years ago) living in States Accomodation and have been paying full rent for my 2 bedroomed property for a good while now (almost £200 per week),my income as a single parent is below £25k and I get no subsidy from housing what so ever.I have always worked and in my previous job my salary went up to 30k and the very small subsidy I had been given was cut !!!I was then was made redundant , luckily finding another job but earning less. I still pay full rent.No subsidy ??????
I know that in the private sector I would not get a decent sized 2 bedroomed place for the rent I pay now and infact I could not afford to pay much more that what I do pay.
So where do the rules/limits come into play here ?
PS: If my place is one that you want to look at I do have some new furniture and a tv , paid for by my redundency so I wont be made to feel guilty for having something that I dont have to take out loans for !!! (first time new furniture and carpet in over 13 years)
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Anon 50 – If someone is from a poor background and has little chance of changing their situation, does that mean they should not be allowed to have childer?
First of all I can’t see how anyone in Jersey can be in a situation where they are “from a poor background and unable to change their situation”
If you don’t have a good job, get another or study to improve your employability. If plain thick then I would suggest the last thing the world needs is your offspring, we have enough of those already.
Look if you can’t afford something you don’t have it, how are children different? why should those of us who work hard, save to buy our own homes, go without and plan our lives be punished by paying for those that spit out a couple of brats and expect us to pick up the tab.
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err: ‘When my wife needed help on being made redundant, she got zero help from the States’
So presumably you asked for States help or, at least investigated it, despite your philosophy of standing on your own two feet!
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No 63, No I (my wife) didn’t ask for finaical, help except help finding a job, and err no help was given, pathetic service (which we have both paid for, via years and 00,000′s of contributions and tax!)
I’m not saying someone should pay my mortage – I an saying – I shouldn’t pay for someone else’s living expenses when thee is no need.
I did though, expect it to be a “given” not pay social security, while others get money given to them and it seems by the tone of this thread live the high life. I’m expected to dip into my savings to pay social on behalf of my wife to fund others who keep their’s – through property aboard etc.
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PJ #59 –
Your arguement is totally disjointed. So far i have concluded that in todays society you think that having children when you can’t afford them and scrounging off the State is an acceptable way to live. This is your point, correct?
You are a prime example of what is wrong with today’s society.
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What a selfish bunch of people! If you begrudge a little help to poor people trying to raise a family, presumably you begrudge free hospital treatment to the ill. Do you have no social conscious? Do you know how much it costs to keep someone in La Moye for a year? Far more than it costs to give a bit of relief to a poor family struggling to get by in overpriced Jersey. I’d rather my taxes went to help the less well off than on cosseting criminals.
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Anon – 50
I’m sorry I just don’t accept that, it is always possible to consider you financial situation.
Whether you are from a poor background or not everyone has the “chance” to better themselves and change their situation, every child has the opportunity to go to school whatever your income and it is up to the parent and child to decide whether they are going to take full advantage of it. I certainly wouldn’t mind (as much) if my hard earned tax payments were being spent on really helping people to get themselves out of the situation they are in.
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I think means testing is the only way to put an end to the unfairness of social housing in Jersey.
But Oh, the poor boat owners in States housing (poor as in an ‘unhappy’ state rather than financial standing), they’ll all be down the Marina racking their brains looking for ways to to appear ‘needy’…the Monty Pythons ‘Four Yorkshiremen’ sketch comes to mind.
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If people are not means tested, what is the booklet you have to fill out asking all the ins an outs of everything then?
Two versions seem to be the norm, one for Housing and the other for Social Security.
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If living in the private sector you are not expected to vacate to smaller premesis when your family grows up and leaves home. I do agree, that the larger properties are needed by families but it does also seem unfair. Shame there isn’t an alternative.
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I don’t think anybody here is begrudging assistance to someone who “genuinely” cannot maintain a reasonable standard of living. Even me !
The biggest moans appear to be about those taking the pi** out of a system that’s designed to do just that.
If anybody can think of a better way of doing it than means testing please tell us.
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@No13 Pseudonym
Yes about a £2000 on Xmas lights would be about right, but in our case, bought over a period of 9 years and in the post Xmas sales. Extravagant yes, in many people eyes, but also a nice way to raise money for charity and to keep a little magic in Christmas for the youngsters. Oh and in case you were wondering how the electric was afforded, 90% of the lights are low voltage.
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One of the issues we have is (no surprise) that Social Security/Income Support and Housing do not talk to each other.
If you are on income support, Social Security has all your financial details and they update these at least once a year. This means few people are able to dodge the system. If you are claiming Income Support you are allowed to have savings of approx £8,000. For every £1,000 over this your Income Support is reduced by £4 per week; so if you have £50,000 in the bank your income support will be reduced by £168 a week and you will be expected to live off your savings. – Fair enough I hear you all say; the problem is the old rent rebate (and welfare) system is still in affect and hasn’t been brought into line with Income Support(check Hansard and you will see it is the JDA who have delayed this). When the payment of welfare/income support/rent rebate is all administered under the same (new) rules then there will be a significant amount of people who have savings who will have their benefit payments from SOJ significantly reduced.
It is only fair that ALL people are treated by the same set of rules, so part of what Sean Power has to do is ensure the move to everyone being on the new Income Support system (with its regular financial checks) is completed as soon as possible.
Once this is done he will have the financial information to start to re-assess who should or shouldn’t be entitled to SOJ housing.
Tenants in SOJ housing or Housing Trusts should have time-scale tenancies with a financial clause as this would allow for easy termination of tenant agreements; I think Sean Power will have great difficulties in moving people otherwise. These tenancies agreements will also be more specific about the rights of SOJ to terminate an agreement when children grow up an leave the parents alone in a 3/4 bedroom house.
I wish Sean Power all the luck in re-aligning the SOJ housing stock to benefit those who have a genuine need for an appropriately sized house/flat. But first get EVERYONE on the same Income support system and stop the old rent rebate system!
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#50 Anon, the children issue is a big one. NO taxpayers’ money should be given to children per se (outwith health and education), then people could be means-tested and those that are genuinely struggling financially (through no fault of their own) can be given proper assistance. If those people have chosen to have two children while getting taxpayer’s money then, much as I wouldn’t be over the moon about it, so be it, but there are people in the UK having 3+ children who have never contributed financially to society in any way whatsoever, some even have 15 kids (and that particular family are immigrants). How is that right?
People who are financially secure should have the foresight to put away extra money for each child they have, so that should the time come that they fall on hard times they do not demand so much from other taxpayers (because it was their choice to have children, not the taxpayers’ choice for them to do so). Of course they should get States’ support, but they should aim to limit their support requirements (as should we all) rather than buying a bigger, faster car, and more TVs than is remotely necessary.
Some of us choose not to have children for a variety of reasons and we should see some financial benefit for this decision, yet we just end up forking out more for other people who have kids! All choices have consequences, including the choice to have children, and that consequence should be met by the people who made that choice, otherwise why shouldn’t they seek our approval before having kids?
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Alison – no matter how many 2 version booklets the States ask to be completed, there is no guarantee that a true version of earnings etc. will be declared.
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39 Fedup.com what a great post,truthful,accurate and to the point….no wonder some were for Tezza whatever he did,folks not paying rent yet spending on other things..I wonder how much is owed at any one time collectively in back rents…no need to import consultants or experts ..we have authentic ones in you…I hope the housing peeps follow your lead…and it’s free thank you.I’m sure you’re right….we’ll see if they do..
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Both myself and my husband are Jersey born however nowdays this accounts to nothing)we both work, have two children, pay our taxes, social security contributions (oh and by the way have probably only claimed sick benefit about three times since we have both worked 30 years). We do not scrounge off the state like others who cannot be bothered to work. However, we do live in states accommodation but we are not big earners and pay full rent. We would love to be in a position to buy our own home however we would not even get a mortgage to cover the first time buyer prices or afford to pay the huge rents in the private sector. We did think last week that the news about the major homebuying scheme was a good one for families like us who just may be able to get on the ladder and move out of housing accommodation. However in tonight’s paper yet again another mistake by a minister in releasing this information to the public when in fact it has never been agreed.
Yet again our hopes have been dashed and we find ourselves in a position where we cannot afford a mortgage and will have to stay in states accommodation. First time buyers need help as the cost of buying a starter home at £450.000 is a joke.
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Jambo #65
Clearly you didn’t read my post at #36, I agree with means testing!
As for your post at #45, you live in a fantasy world of exaggeration, several children in a 2 bed flat,
What you are saying then is those who were financaily stable, who have had a family, contributed tax and social for many years then lose their job, made redundant, fall ill through no fault of their own should not get help, give up the children and go live on the street. Shame on you, let’s hope this never happens to you and if it does you are turned away at the door for your comments!
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I know people in states accomodation, do not work and have horses!! never mind the merc or the boat which is prob 400 a month and I bet them people work hard for those items. the states should look at the bank statements of those that dont work but can seem to afford horses because people are clarly getting money from somewhere, come on benefits cant be that good can they??
I think if people work hard and pay taxes and are paying full rent then they are entitled to the merc or boat you keep going on about as they WORK and EARN their money.. Its those who can work but CHOOSE not to work and seem to enjoy more luxaries than those who do work.
Just because you are a states tennant does not mean you do not work.. most people do work and pay their way
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No. 77 – I think you should try and buy your house with the 25% discount, thats what I did and you seem to be in the same situation as myself, ask the states if you can do the scheme where they pay the 25% deposit, payable upon first sale, that will keep your mortage low as there are good rates at the moment, but be careful as if you try to move or slightly increase your mortgage at a later date they will have to agree and if you need to put lawyer fees into the mortgage they will say no, they want you to buy more part of the 25% as they did with me.. at least you will own your house as you are hard working decent people.
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#72 “Oh and in case you were wondering how the electric was afforded, 90% of the lights are low voltage.”
I would be interested in the science behind your logic. Have you found a lossless way of changing mains into low voltage (other than putting all the lights in series) or are you using solar panels?
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PJ #78 – again you miss the point!
My original arguement did not mention people becomming ill and being dependant on States housing. This is what the whole process is in place for.
What i don’t agree with is a couple on State benefit, because they are too lazy to work.
I also don’t agree with people having children when they can’t afford them, that is being pure selfish, as ultimately it is the likes of the sensible people who plan, scrimp and save to start a family, who end up paying (via taxes) for those on States to spit out a load of brats…it becomes an endless cyle. (The UK is a prime example).
Why should i scrimpand save and work every hour i can, just to pay for some bum who can’t be bothered because the benefits of not working are too good!
Still just don’t get your arguement, it’s contradictory…what’s your point??
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What about the second homes scam? get them out,
rents are too high thus takeing from states reserves madness,
If your a drug addict or have a drink problem your housed stop this mess,
Is it too late i think so.
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Jambo @ 78
My point is you singled out one person on a ‘private’ estate and exaggerated it, giving false facts.
Unfortunately, people make mistakes, pregnancy been one of them, that will never change, do I agree that that the tax payer should foot the bill for someone’s 30 second knee trembler without contraception – NO. I had to work extra and went without to pay the mortgage and support my children.
All tenants are ‘means tested’ when first going in to States property, but until recently few were checked on an annual basis, most are honest and report changes in their income, but as in any part of the world there are a minority who will slip through the net.
The problem is to do with the States of Jersey – Housing and Social Security. It is only now that they have picked up on what has been going on with states tenants and allowed many of them to continue living in their property on a fair rent policy. The two departments cannot talk to each other because of data protection, allowing the few to get away with this scam, with having children, to thick, exaggerate an illness or just won’t get a job and take take take. These are the ones that take cash in hand work to pay for their luxury holidays, cars etc and have found ways to cheat the system, its untraceable income unless caught red handed. Do I agree with this, NO
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R B Bougourd #81
Well spotted !
I must admit I read straight pass that common misconception that low voltage = low cost.
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Some of these people in States accomodation need their finances looked at closely. i.e. some inherit huge amounts of money and then hide it away or put it in the kids banks whilst the good old tax payer subsidises their rents.
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a tenant(77) how right you are.
it is a misconseption that the typical states tenant is a parasite.
many pay full rent, but the private sector rents are a bridge too far, unless you want to eat safway saver beans for the rest of the working life, and starve on a pension.
(no private pension, as was paying too high rent all working life)
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@TTC 75.
Very true, so how on earth would any new form of means testing change that I wonder.
I can think of a family living in housing accomodation whilst freely admitting they have 2 properties in warmer climes, a family home & a holiday home. I feel though if they were pulled up on it, a cry of racism might ensue.
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There are a few reocurring issues here:
Tenants who have second homes in France or in their original country of origin. Surely there must be a way of checking this?
Divorcees – I personally know of one person (a mother in this case) who doesn’t raise her children and has them one or two nights a wek but is allotted (and subsidised on) a three bedroom property. I also have known in the past of people claiming to be single parents and having a partner living with them.
Income in the bank that is not declared. Do they declare the income from interest on their tax return? There must be ways of checking this.
And one last thing: I sympathise with the comment about having children that you can pay for but feel it is undemocratic to expect to dictate how many children a family can have. One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is pets. I know a big dog can cost over £1000 a year in food and pet bills and a pet is a lifestyle choice, especially in rented accommodation.
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One last thing:
If housing can’t afford an additional fraud officer, isn’t this an ideal outsourcing idea?
Let’s say you are claiming £10,000 a year in tax rebate, child benefit, etc. etc. and yet have a house you own and rent for profit in Portugal.
Over five years the cost to the taxpayer is £50,000.
Why not have a private company who get 50% of one year’s saving i.e. £5,000 in the case of a successful fraud prosecution?
This company will pay tax, GST and ITIS and save the taxpayer thousands over a relatively short period of time.
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90.Cathy – You don’t need fraud officers, outsourced or otherwise. Most of the posters on here seem remarkably well informed about states tenants.
All we need is a hotline so they can phone in and rat on the suspects. Bingo…problem solved. That’s assuming all of these ‘claims’ can be substantiated of course!!
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#89 “I sympathise with the comment about having children that you can pay for but feel it is undemocratic to expect to dictate how many children a family can have.”
You don’t have to dictate it, you use financial disincentive to ensure that the taxpayer isn’t being forced to pay for someone else’s choice. That way if someone wants another child they can actually make sacrifices for it, like parents used to, but now everyone has a standard of living that is far more ‘want’ than ‘need’. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure some people genuinely believe it is ‘need’ but that doesn’t make it so.
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It’s not just children!!! What about all the animals? Most of the dogs are going insane because they do nothing except stay indoors all day with endless kids around winding them up! Then when they all decide to head off to their immense weekly food shop or the pub, the poor dogs are forgotten and left to bark insanely most of the weekend!
Cats, rats, horses etc…. how can they afford to feed these when they are getting benefits for their endless kids?! It beggars belief! Means-testing for pets and children would be a good step too!
Oh and iphones? Helllllooo How on earth do these people do it? At least many of us are able to hold our heads high in pride and not wait for our next tax refund or income support payment. If I was to get an iphone, it’s because I’ve saved my own earned money for it!
Bitter…much? Well yes actually! I’m paying for you to sit on your backside all day drinking and having bbqs then on my weekends off I have to listen to your mangy pets and brattish kids ruining my peace!
I guess I can laugh when you are finally demoted to a manky one bed states flat when all the leeches (sorry-kids) have left home… that’s if they ever do because they’re so thick I doubt they’ll ever get a job, but hey mummy’s set a good example, pop a couple of sprogs 2 bed flat hey presto! One more and you’ve got yourself a house, come on girl…. show ‘em how it’s done
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you do not have to be rich to own a merc, depending on the age of it .
look on jersey insight , the last one i had seen was £500, and looked a cracker, several before at under £1000, good solid, reliable transport , to get to work , to pay the rent, and bills, and growing taxes.
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I will be out of a job in a couple of months, I would gladly work as a fraud officer for the states on a commission only basis.
Reckon I would make a fortune.
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93 – Anon* “then on my weekends off I have to listen to your mangy pets and brattish kids ruining my peace!”
I know exactly how you feel so can sympathise with you on that.
Actually I thought the whole of your post was pretty cool.
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#87 ‘you do not have to be rich to own a merc, depending on the age of it .
look on jersey insight , the last one i had seen was £500, and looked a cracker…’
Isn’t that trade speak for one that keeps blowing cylinder heads, David?
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@91
Nothing stopping people from “ratting” now, no special phone line needed.
However from what I have observed very little seems to happen. Having witnessed an inspection for a “boyfriend”, not very thorough and easily fooled springs to mind.
SS employ me I’d make a good fraud officer!
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Anon 93.
After reading your post, I’m amazed that anyone would even want to live in States housing.
Oh, but of course, low rent has it’s advantages. Pity one can’t choose one’s neighbours…but come to think of it, they can be a nightmare even in the best of places…
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All those vitriolic comments. . . . . . .let’s put the blame where it really lies and has done for years, at the door of the incompetent Housing Department, that’s why people have creamed the system because they have been able to ! ! !
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Perhaps getting rid of the Germans all those years ago was a bad idea.Not only is their economy better, but at least we would have a chance inte World Cup!
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Why do States tenants not pay for the upkeep of their communal gardens. Property owners have to employ a gardener or do it themselves.
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#100 Mogit, having useless departments still doesn’t excuse immoral behaviour. Blame most definitely lies on both sides!
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