Police pay reflects their difficult role
Thursday 1st July 2010, 3:00PM BST.
From Christopher Hopkins.
HAVING read the article and the comments made by the Home affairs Minister regarding police pay (JEP, 29 Jun), we would like to bring attention to a number of points via your forum which were missing from his apparent reported presentation to Scrutiny.
• The States of Jersey Police are the only remaining States department that still regularly work a 40-hour week. Civil servants and other pay groups work 35-37 hour weeks. Police deployment is also 24-hour day coverage for 365 days a year.
• Police officers’ scheduled rest days can and are changed at a moment’s notice. Officers are normally working a ten-hour shift and can be ordered to work beyond those times, again without notice, and are regularly called upon to do so. Additionally, police officers can be ordered to work ten or more days without a day off, if required.
• Major events in the Island’s calendar can mean that leave embargoes are put into place therefore further restricting holidays with their families.
• The volatile and stressful situations officers deal with on a daily basis can have a huge, often detrimental impact, not only on some officer’s wellbeing, but also on family lives.
The above are just a few of the many reasons that the officer receives a commensurate rate of pay for their commitment to public service, often in very difficult and challenging circumstances.
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Not sure that this is entirely the case. Jersey is hardly a hotbed of violence and crime. Most of the time they are chasing kids for petty misdeads.
Send them into the UK inner cities for a taste of real policing!!
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Tree Hugger # 1. If you think that Jersey is not a hotbed of violence and disorder then think again.
Many officers past and present served not only in Jersey, but also elsewhere in the U.K. and they will tell you that violence they see on the island, is comparable with that you see on the mainland.
You only have to monitor the pages of the J.E.P. and read reports of attacks made on members of the public, then peruse the accounts of cases on the Magistrates Court page of the newspaper.
A study in the late 1990s revealed that people on the island drank twice as much per head of population than England and Wales. It was also revealed that there were twice as many assaults per head of population.
You should think before making frivolous remarks about things you clearly know nothing about.
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Well said Blue Knight
We should perhaps “send Tree Hugger into King Street on a Saturday night for a taste of reality”
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Sorry but I agree with the comment above the Police spend a huge amount of time intimidating and chasing kids they don’t like, grossly overpaid and no way is jersey any where as violent as the UK also the Fire Service the Ambulance Service also work 24 hr shifts all year with out the over payment enjoyed by our police
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I fully agree with no4 & 1.
Blue knight you seem to think your an authority on the Police Force and maybe you were in the job but I am also an authority on the Jersey and Hampshire forces and Jersey have it easy.The violence that the UK deal with is vast Jersey force are like chocolate teapots on a summers day.If god forbid we have a murder in Jersey the UK Police have to come in and show the locals how to deal with it.
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I served in Belfast city centre with the RUC for 12 years and 18 in Jersey. I can tell you I didn’t see a tenth of the drunken disorder in Belfast that you see in Jersey. Kate’s comment is nonsense, despite her self-proclaimed “authority”, but what would I know with only 30 years front-line experience?
When a murder occurs in Jersey, of course they seek assistance, as any area in the UK will draw assistance in from outlying areas. Policing is policing. UK officers don’t face (or potentially face…) anything that our local force don’t.
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Blue Knight
I think it is you who “should think before making frivolous remarks”
“violence they see on the island, is comparable with that you see on the mainland” – What an absolutely ridiculous statement to make, it is laughable that you even compare Jersey to the UK, as someone who is regularly in town at the weekend I can assure that it is quite rare that any serious violence occurs and it’s not often you see the police around when it does.
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Yes BR, you must be quite right; Blue Knight and I base our evidence-based assertions on nearly 70 years of frontline supervision of policing in the UK mainland, Northern Ireland and Jersey. You base yours on the fact that you go to town at the weekend… How can we compete with such logic?
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BR # 7. Like Ewan Mee, I had experience in policing in Jersey and in a major city in the U.K. You might deem my remarks to be frivolous, but I know otherwise.
Your evidence is anecdotal, whereas I had first hand experience of what it was like on the Island’s streets, when violence occurred during a busy week end. I have in the past been assaulted on a number of occasions.
Kate # 5. I don’t believe I am an authority on policing – I am a retiree and my knowledge is somewhat dated. However I suspect I have more knowledge on the subject than you do.
I have been involved in two murder investigations, as a C.I.D. officer in Jersey, without any assistance from the police in the U.K.
I have also been involved in major public disorder situations in the Island, that compared with those I experienced in an inner city and whilst policing the Miner’s Strike.
The drugs problem in Jersey is far greater than in many areas of the U.K., as is the amount of drink related crime – don’t rely on the police’s own statistics, which are often manipulated to make Senior Officers and politicians look good. Remember the saying, lies, damned lies and statistics.
Of course there will always be those detractors who revile the police and I expect Kate, it will be difficult to get you to change your mind.As they say, there are none so blind as those who don’t want to see.
Skwiffy # 4. Yes the Ambulance Service and Fire & Rescue Service are available throughout a 24 hour period, but they are able to sleep on duty when they aren’t dealing with incidents.
I won’t comment on your remark about the cops chasing and intimidating youngsters – at this time of night it is probably way past your bed time.
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#9 ‘I have also been involved in major public disorder situations in the Island, that compared with those I experienced in an inner city and whilst policing the Miner’s Strike.’
Blimey! Were these events in Jersey hushed up? Or was the miners’strike just a walk in the park with lots of overtime for Old Bill bussed up there from London, as some would have us believe?
Humble apologies on standby in return for the Gorey (sic) details.
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I wouldn’t accept my word and Blue Knight’s on this. Her Majesty’s Inspector of Constabulary inspects the States of Jersey Police and rates them highly. Now, he IS an authority…
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Blue Knight #9
I, as appears C Le Verdic would be intrigued to hear what happened in Jersey to prompt your
“I have also been involved in major public disorder situations in the Island, that compared with those I experienced in an inner city and whilst policing the Miner’s Strike”
You’re not talking about when that bunch of Johnny foreigners goose stepped all over Jersey in 1941 are you?
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Euan Mee #6
How many RUC officers killed on duty, how many SoJP killed on duty?
Our officers do a fine job, but your comparison is as absurd as when Geoff Southern compared himself to Nelson Mandela.
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C Le Verdic # 10. You should have been in James Street, Beresford Street, or the Weighbridge when the night clubs closed in the early hours of the morning. Probably way past your bed time.
You should have visited some of the illegal raves around the Island, where the police were heavily outnumbered by an estimated 500 angry people, who just had their sound equipment confiscated by the Honorary Police. It’s quite ‘interesting’ having your patrol car surrounded by a bunch of hoodlums who then rock the vehicle and puch the windows.
We couldn’t even muster 25 officers, in an endeavour to quell the disturbance and this resulted in complaints from people who lived in the area, becuase we couldn’t keep the crowds quiet.
In the U.K. they could have called on neighbouring sub-divisions to bring reinforcements. In Jersey all we could call on was the ‘Police Honerifique’, who God bless them weren’t equipped to deal with such situations.
Don’t take the ‘wee wee’, because you weren’t there pal.
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PJG # 12. Sorry, but I only joined the States Police in 1968, so I wasn’t there during the occupation. From speaking to those who did experience the presence of the Wehrmacht and Geheime Staatspolizei, I understand there were few if any distubances.
I moved away from the Island and policed in the Home Counties for a number of years. Some of public order situations in Jersey, were comparable with those I saw on the mainland.
There are a number of former U.K. officers in the S.o.J.P. today and I imagine many of them will tell you, policing in Jersey is not the ‘walk in the park’, as many would have you believe.
It is obviously pointless endeavouring to convince the unbelievers, who like to snipe at the cops at every opportunity. All of this has been spurred on by a bungling nincompoop of a politician, who is supposed to represent the police. With friends like him, who needs enemies?
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PJG, I don’t need to be lectured on RUC officers killed; I served with them, they were my friends and colleagues. It does NOT alter the fact that there is more drunken disorder in St Helier than I ever saw in 12 years policing in Belfast, and I go back regularly. Sneer as much as you like, that is my experience…
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PJG, let me put it a bit simpler: I spent half my police service in a UK inner city centre (Belfast). I spent the other half in Jersey. My experience was that there was far more drunken behaviour requiring police involvement in Jersey, than in Belfast. That is not “absurd”. It is “informed”. It may add more to the deabate than the irrational anti-police rants on here.
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Blue Knight, of course I wasn’t there pal.
Not only would it have been past my bedtime, as you correctly surmise, but I was also brought up to behave in a manner that does not require police intervention so I would not have been rocking your patrol car at a rave or rolling drunk out of a night club!
If I had my way there wouldn’t be any night clubs allowed to spew out drunks, so in a perverse sort of fashion I’m on your side. I’d have the car overturners locked up but so would I lock up anyone who gratuitously walloped peaceful demonstrators who didn’t move along with enough haste.
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PJG # 12. I served in the Armed Forces and spent three years in Northern Ireland in the 1970s. I would concur with Ewan Mee, you’d rarely see large scale drunken disorder in Belfast or Derry – I guess people were more worried about the para military groups who would stamp down hard on behaviour like that.
I had great respect for the R.U.C. guys – when I finished my duties at the end of a shift, I want back to my barracks. Most of the R.U.C.officers went to their unguarded dwellings. As you will know from history, these officers and their families frequently suffered attacks and some of these incidents had fatal consequences.
Your comparison between Ulster and Jersey, insofar as deaths of police officers is concerned, was rather churlish. Ewan was making a comparison between drunken disorder in the two locations.
I have been out in St. Helier during a busy week end in the summer. I’ve often felt pretty intimidated because of the drunken yobs that were milling about outside the night clubs – remember I am an ex-squaddie so I don’t believe I get easily frightened.
Finally; I hope Ewan Mee won’t mind me telling you, – he also served in the Royal Military Police in Ulster. He has considerable experience in dealing with a broad spectrum of policing issues, including public disorder involving squaddies. He is more qualified than most to make comparisons, unlike the majority of people who have contributed to this discussion.
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C Le Verdic # 18. Have you ever been in the middle of a melee; where drunks are rioting and shouting, fighting causing malicious damage to the public’s property? Where they punch and spit at you, or use weapons against you.
I suspect not, as you claim, you were… “brought up to behave in a manner that does not require police intervention.”
I believe the police in Jersey handle public disorder in a pretty restrained manner, compared to the methods used by our continental cousins.
Have you ever seen the French C.R.S., the Italian
Carabinieri, or the German Bereitschaftspolizei in action?
Now if you want to moan about the “gratuitous walloping of peaceful demonstraters”, moan about what occurs on mainland Europe.
Not that I believe what we saw on our televisions about (in the safety of our living rooms) the public disorder the G20 meeting in the U.K. was right. But then neither you nor I were there.
We didn’t experience the fear and confusion – I wonder how you’d react? Please don’t make judgement on what you don’t know about. Question it, yes. But don’t pass judgement on things you haven’t got all the facts about.
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I have to agree with Kate @5 ….The violence that the UK deal with is vast Jersey force are like chocolate teapots on a summers day…. Yes the Police does a good job and I have nothing to criticise (apart of those lazy officer who stay off 2 years to be off sick for another 5 months).
I work on this type of job and have no doubts that you cannot compare our level of crime with those seen in UK, Scotland, Portugal, etc (I have also lived and worked on those places). Please you all read newspapers and watch the news. You don’t need to be a police officer who worked in UK to be able to see the difference of crime you have outside this Island. Just be grateful for it and praise the Police for the prevention type of work they do, but please Police officers don’t even try to compare your daily work with those in UK as it is ridicule and insulting.
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To go back to the original letter:
“Police officers’ scheduled rest days can and are changed at a moment’s notice. Officers are normally working a ten-hour shift and can be ordered to work beyond those times, again without notice, and are regularly called upon to do so. Additionally, police officers can be ordered to work ten or more days without a day off, if required.”
If this is the case, then it is simply bad management. While I am not disputing the level of crime in Jersey, it seems to me largely predictable (mainly Friday and Saturday nights) and I fail to understand why decent forward planning can not address these issues. This would surely bring costs savings and also improve the quality of life for members of the force.
I wait to be told that it is not that simple.
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Yeah yeah two years on suspension..full pay then ..Oh it’s time for a holiday…as SS would intone ..you couldn’t make it up.
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Blue knight,I stand by my remarks this type of behavior by the police is not Isolated!!!!
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Euan Mee
In no way was I trying to denigrate either the RUC or the SoJP, I have great respect for both the bravery and effectiveness of both forces.
It was “you” who started to compare between the 2 forces, I suspect relying the well publicised violent nature of the troubles to enhance your comparisons.
As is pointed out by Hugh Janus, (who after agreeing with me, then goes on to call me churlish?)In Jersey a drunk can usually insult someone in a pub and only end up with sore a jaw (please note usually) the thought of that person retaliating by bombing or machine gunning their home and family or the home and family of the police officer trying to control the disorder at a later date does not enter into the thoughts of the Jersey drunk or “SoJ Police Officer. In Belfast I suspect one needed to think very carefully before starting (or trying to control) a drunken altercation especially if religion is involved.
I admit, I do not, as you, speak from experience, only hearsay, please correct me if I am wrong.
That is the reason I think comparing the policing of drunken behaviour in Jersey to “the then” Belfast is absurd.
I also disagree with the author of this thread, “Police pay reflects their difficult role”, and I think it “should” do, but does not, especially for the RUC.
Hugh Janus
I live in St Helier and frequently have to use the streets at 2/3 in the morning.
I am in my sixties and have never felt “intimidated because of the drunken yobs”.
I have spent a lot of time in the Sudan, I have felt intimidated there, and alcohol is not even allowed, as experienced officers have told me “beware the cold sober nasties before the drunks”.
Blue Knight
“God bless them weren’t equipped to deal with such situations”
Oh dear, you are living in the past, god bless you!
The “Police Honerifique” “God bless them” now receives officer safety training from the SoJP trainers. They were also on standby and equipped to assist the SoJP with any incidents that may have occurred during the recent world cup football.
They were part of the escort for the Guernsey fans from Springfield to the docks when violence broke out on the pitch after the match this year.
They stood with their body armour on (sans CS) side by side with their SoJP colleges during the Minden place riots of previous world cups.
They are frequently on patrol to the early hours on a Friday and Saturday keeping the queens peace in St Helier.
Their pay, and thanks from the public (and some ancient ex SoJ officers) definitely does not reflect their difficult role.
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As yet another retired police officer with UK inner city experience I would like to suggest that Jersey is not as violent or crime ridden as the UK; as far as Belfast is concerned I would much rather face drunken yobs than snipers and petrol bombs. I am not sure that these situations really stand comparison and to a certain extent these attempts are comparing an orange with a thong.
What is important is to remember that a police officer does not get paid just for what he or she does but for what they are expected to do and what they might encounter. One day no matter how quiet Jersey is when compared with the UK a police officer in Jersey will die on duty whether by accident or design, just as certainly many will go thirty years without the necessity of pepper spraying some pratt with a knife and a skinful.
All we have the right to ask is that our police do their duty whatever that involves. Ask yourselves what that is worth in monetary terms? What is it worth to ask a police officer to put their life at risk protecting the public and maybe make the ultimate sacrifice in the line of duty?
As for annual increments to pay, if you do not reward constables on front line duty they will look elsewhere for promotion or specialisation, this takes vital experience and skills off the streets and puts the public at risk.
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Blue night
Re: Have you ever seen the French C.R.S., the Italian Carabinieri, or the German Bereitschaftspolizei in action?
Yes, I have. Police bullies worldwide study from the same handbook – British police-bullies included. And you should take a look at the ‘G20 bully in a yellow vest’ on Youtube (and others), maybe you’ll see what I see…a bully-in-blue and not a policeman.
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Quote Blue Knight
“It is obviously pointless endeavouring to convince the unbelievers, who like to snipe at the cops at every opportunity. All of this has been spurred on by a bungling nincompoop of a politician, who is supposed to represent the police. With friends like him, who needs enemies?”
There are good and bad employees in any place of employment, Jersey Police are no different from else where the public base there opinions on the actions of police that they witness or actions that effect there friends and family’s without decent legal aid, or a Independent Police Authority there is very little that an individual can do against police who bully and intimidate.
Its not sniping its fact, one final point Blue Knight the bungling nincompoop Senator Le Marquand is the political BOSS of the police not there representative , is he not entitled to his opinion? or is he just sniping as well
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