States Members in line for 2% pay rise
Monday 5th July 2010, 2:59PM BST.
Senator Ben Shenton wants the Members' pay and expenses to be cut
STATES Members’ pay could go up by two per cent.
The independent pay review body has proposed a £800 raise that would take politicians pay up to almost £45,000 a year.
If the recommendations are not challenged in the States by 2 August, they will take effect from the start of next year.
However, Senator Ben Shenton has already announced his intention to cut the States Members’ annual £2.6 million wage and expenses bill – he is proposing to remove £600,000 from the budget for States pay in the Business Plan, which will be lodged next week.
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They dare vote themselves a payrise in the current climate with what they have wasted our money on.
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Words fail me, this has got to be a joke!!!
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Surely a pay freeze is a minimum requirement if not a pay cut!!!
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No pay rise.
What have they done to get a pay rise?
What happened to cutting costs?
Here’s a good start to not increasing overheads within the states.
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So Ian Le Marquand thinks the Police are overpaid – perhaps he should consider States Members pay before moaning about others. A new member with no previous political experience (like Mr. Le Marquand) can come into the job and earn £45,000 straight away. A Police Officer has to be in the job 12 years, by which time he will have gained a vast amount of experience, to earn that sort of money.
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Pay raise should not be given,if it is then we really need to look at what individual members allowances and expenses are,and what is being claimed for a lot closer.
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Surely this is a wind-up The majority of them are not going to vote for them staying as they are or for a pay cut are they lets face it. Perhaps the islands’ people should be allowed to vote per States member as to whther they should get a rise or not….
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If the teachers are getting 2% all states workers will want the same, this is just the beginning.
Should have been a apy freeze across the board like the private sector has endured for the past couple of years.
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This does not surprise me. And they wanted to give states employees nothing!
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well done ben and good luck, most of the public will behind you on this one.
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No need to ‘tighten our belts’ anymore, the States are leading the way on pay rises.
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I remember getting lectured by my manager to say “don’t expect a pay rise in the current climate. Yes we are making money but we are not out of the woods yet”.
Ozouf then bleats on and on about cutting deficits and spending.
Even money that the COM will vote themselves a payrise.
DISGUSTING DISGUSTING DISGUSTING DISGUSTING
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Obviously those commenting so far are more than satisfied with the present quality of government and are more than happy for those they elect to delegate the decision making process to an unaccountable civil service. That those Civil Servants are being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds of their money seems beyond their comprehension. Perhaps they should also be putting their names forward at the next election!
I am not satisfied with the quality of Government.
I am not happy that hundreds of millions of pounds are wasted every year simply because those entrusted to Govern and run our economy could not in reality run a paper shop.
Instead of the perpetual winging favoured by so many I would rather the pay for States members was INCREASED now so that come the next election we may get a handful of competent and credible candidates capable of properly managing the Island.
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How do we the public challenge these recommendations by the “independent” review body? As a States worker myself, I am absolutely disgusted by this – having had to endure a pay freeze last year when the politicians had a pay rise of £1000 and having had to fight for 2% this year with a “review of terms and conditions of employment” clause attached.
Would be interested to find out if the pledges to give back the £1000 pay increase made by some politicians at the mass gathering of states workers unions last year were actually followed through on, and if so, where that money went…
8. Stan Dinstill – please change the private sector hardship record. I know full well that not all private sector workers have had to accept pay freezes or pay cuts over the last couple of years. In fact all of the private sector workers I know have had pay rises all be it in some cases those rises have been smaller than “usual”.
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i have not had a pay rise for three years why should the states get 2% when we are all trying to survive on this very expensive island the states are so out of touch can’t wait for the elections
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Surely the States will vote against this proposal. They have a real opportunity here to lead by example and make at least a token gesture to demonstrate they’re not the bunch of greedy, out of touch crooks that some would make them out to be.
That said, I wouldn’t put it past them to have engineered this as some sort of publicity stunt to give themselves some brownie points when they turn it down.
To vote for this proposal in light of all that’s going on at the moment would be staggeringly obtuse, so much so that I can’t believe anyone in even our government would vote for it.
I’ll watch this one with interest!
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The States should set an example to States emploees. NO TO PAY RISE, THe sky will be full of pink pigs with wings on the 2nd of August, because it wiill not happen
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Things were looking good for the the first twelve comments. Then it had to come. someone had to trot out the “If we paid them more we would get better quality” line.
How they must love it when others put forward such suggestions for them. Every time they read that corny old saw about peanuts and monkeys (which is merely a witticism, not a fact) they must rub their hands in glee.
Just where is the evidence that ability is directly related to being paid more? Were all those who have dropped the rest of us into hard times whilst managing to maintain luxury lifestyles for themselves under rewarded?
Oh, I’ve got it wrong. All the competent leaders are waiting quietly in the wings to step in when the money’s right. Pull the other one, we’ve been had too many times already.
Here’s a better saying: “Money doesn’t just talk, it bullies”. They won’t be so pleased if people trot that one out instead.
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This is a ploy ! First there is an uproar from the public ( like you see here ) Then, after a while States members will decide that they will “forfeit” the rise and ….. look like the good guys ! In the meantime they hope that the call for a cut in pay will evaporate
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Jim 15. you need to change the record and stop saying you haven’t had a pay rise for 3 years, the comment above yours 14 Disheartened doesn’t like it, and he knows private sector workers who have had pay rises.
I myself do not having like you had nothing for 3 years also and consider myself fortunate to retain employment unlike half my department who have lost their jobs.
Still poor states workers had a pay freeze for a year before getting 2% this year, boy have they suffered. Try not having a works pension, not daring to be sick for fear of the interrogation and implicit threat of sacking if it happens again that we in the real world endure ( except those private sector friends of yours of course )
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20 Stan Dinstill – if your current employer is as bad as you are making them out to be I know there are plenty of other private sector employers that are much better and perhaps you should look for another job? Bitterness towards others who apparently do not have it as bad as you is not healthy – aspire to what we have not to bring us down to your level! GET ANOTHER JOB!
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The only thing they all deserve is the sack! They have gotten the island into the mess it is today. They are all, each and every one of them a disgrace.
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In Jersey we have a disproportionately large number of government Ministers with personal fortunes in the million pound bracket. Those people do not *need* the salary they are already paid, yet they are going to squeeze the public purse for a measly few hundred pounds more?
It’s shameful. And it says all you need to know about why politics in Jersey has bred such public apathy.
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“If the recommendations are not challenged”
Are we the public invited into the States between now and the 2nd of August? If not, why not? I’m sure we would challenge it but who in the States will?
#13 Do that and we won’t get quality we’ll just get a bunch of greedy people who think they can do less for more money! Have to agree with #18, where is the evidence that an increase in pay leads to better quality candidates? The UK Government (whether we like them or not) has some extremely smart and highly educated people in it who could earn a lot more in the private sector, yet they choose politics over the pay. Maybe Jersey just doesn’t have better candidates? Or maybe the current system puts them off?
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Perhaps one solution is that all those who moan about Politicians pay should themselves stand for election offering to do the job for free. That would stop all existing politicians getting re-elected and all our problems solved!!!!!
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The truth is, being a States member shouldn’t be a full time job and certainly shouldn’t be a career option. The salary should be fixed at the average Jersey wage level and nobody should be allowed more than 2 consecutive terms in office.
Tht would bring in fresh blood and stop those who are only in it for the money.
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R B Bougourd @ 18
It’s nice to know that someone else doesn’t believe that paying a higher wage will attract higher quality states members. All we will end up with is the same ignorant and inadequate COM, they will just be being paid more.
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You wouldn’t mind as much if they could actually do a good job – most of them only excel at being numpties – and there’s no exception to this on the COM.
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Notice that none of the above contributors have volunteered to give up their current jobs and offer themselves for a 3 year contract in the States.
RB Bougourd; Bernard 22.; MrB 23.; Leah 24.; Roger 26.; Diane 27. Who about it – give up work and do the job for free?
Even the public sector employees whilst claiming hardship are not clambering to give up their permanent job and gold plated pensions. Given that EVERY civil servant of management grade and most supervisors earn a lot more than their political equivalent this is no surprise. I’m certainly not giving up my job.
Of all the comments complaining about the quality of our government none are prepared to remove their heads from the sands of ignorance and do anything about it, yet all seem to acknowledge that we are sinking with no hope of reprieve. Like turkeys we are all looking forward to Christmas so we can all say – told you things were bad!!!!!!
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It’s about time the States Members were means tested. If this test proves that they are ‘millionaire status’ then no pay rises.
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#25 Sanity, I’m sure if it went back to a committee system there are plenty of people on here who would offer their services for free because of their desire to make Jersey a better place. It is rather silly to suggest that anyone does the current job for free though, after all no-one is asking that the States do it for free, just that we aren’t being asked to pay more to people who currently throw taxpayers’ money down various holes!
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As an employee at a States of Jersey owned “incorporated” company I’ve had to take a 24% pay cut. My Directors have had a £25k pay rise. You bet members will vote for a pay rise, including Mr Southern, the Pitmans and all. The only thing that is amazing me is that it is only 2%.
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Hope Ben shows some mettle here.
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” Sanity
Posted July 6, 2010 at 3:10 pm
Notice that none of the above contributors have volunteered to give up their current jobs and offer themselves for a 3 year contract in the States.
RB Bougourd; Bernard 22.; MrB 23.; Leah 24.; Roger 26.; Diane 27. Who about it – give up work and do the job for free?”
Unlike our current crop of millionaire Ministers, were I have to a million pound bank balance I’d be more than happy to function as a States Member completely free of charge. As I’m sure would others who have commented here.
I’ve never understood why cash-rich Politicians for whom the annual States salarly is mere pocket money, enough to fuel their yacht for a few months, continue not only to take that salarly, but to demand pay rises periodically. It tends to suggest something rather unpleasant to me about their primary concerns.
Sanity, you appear to be champing at the bit to obscure the issue under discussion, ranting about people working for free. Most of the talk here has not been of demands for politicians to work for free, but for a limit to be placed on their earnings.
I personally believe the large amount of millionaires in our government means that island politicians should be means tested. Those in the “million pound club” should take not a penny of taxpayer’s money, only being allowed to claim basic office expenses. The annual salarly should be reserved for those States Members for whom the job is a sole source of income.
It would be interesting to hear some our millionaire Ministers publically explain why they are so financially incapable of forgoing their £40,000 States salarly, if even for just the duration of the current economic downturn. Over to you, JEP.
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ZX81 – As none of our current States members appear up to the job, the demand that a few of the richer ones give up their salaries does not sound like a long term solution.
The expectation that a new generation of dynamic business people will give up their careers and do the job for free on the basis that they have a few more pounds in the bank is a socialist principle even the JDA have rejected.
Given the apparent strength of feeling I would have expected a few class warriors to have banded together to subsidise a candidate, giving that person the moral high ground of doing the job on the cheap. That appears what is being demanded!
Just maybe if we were to raise the rewards – just maybe a few good people will come forward – just maybe by raising the stakes the Jersey people will take an interest and turn out to vote. Just maybe we will get a government with the ability to restore our prosperity. At lot of Maybes but if we do nothing then it is certain that taxes will go up for rich and poor alike and services, pensions and benefits will all be cut back.
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And to put the tin hat on it, Le Claire has today lodged a proposition to, wait for it, give them all a pension plan at taxpayers expense. I consider them to be self-employed contractors on fixed 3 or 6 year contracts (or less if you give your notice like the unlamented Syvret). That being the case, if they want a pension they should pay for it out of their income like all other self-employed folk (ie me) have to.
Roger @ 26 is right, a salary equivalent to average wage is about right and if its good enough for the working drones its good enough for States members. They want more cash? Cut the numbers and make some real efficiency savings – they’re proposing a reduction of about 10% in UK MP’s, I’d go further and lop at least 10 off meaning less windbaggery all round.
If you have been, thanks for listening……
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#34 ZX81 You’ve reminded me of something I forgot to say. If I was already a millionaire I would most certainly do the job of States Member for free, but then I would do most stuff for free if I was already a millionaire. I would also do it for free if it was a committee system (like it once was) but at the moment I need to work more hours to finance a pay rise for some ‘employees’ that I don’t think deserve it but who I apparently cannot sack.
Sanity just wants to take things to silly extremes to try and win an argument because he/she knows he can’t justify these guys getting a pay rise given their lack of performance. He is avoiding the question about providing evidence that a higher salary will bring better candidates!
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Sanity,
You have totally misunderstood. The reason for cutting the salary of States members is twofold:
1) to keep people out who are in it because they could not hope to earn £40k in the private sector; and
2) to make States members think about how to act efficiently.
Too many States members and voters think it is a full time job. For many succesful people, £40k is not a full tiem job: it is the sort of sum you get for a non-executive directorship that would take up 2 days a month.
But this “full time” mentality manifests itself in endless calls for more debates, more scrutiny, more transparency, more working parties, more public consultations, more UK consultants etc etc. It is a classic example of work expanding to fill the amount of time available.
I defy anyone to say that the decisions of the States on matters like 0/10, GST, electoral reform, implementation of Clothier or the incinerator were made in haste. Agree or disagree with the outcome, noboy surely believes there wasn’t enough debate.
The reason why successful people don’t want to join the States is because it is a waste of time. A decision that should take a week or two takes a year or two. Decisions that have been made are debated again just months later. It is impossible to get anything done and it drains both public money and the energies of those who want to get things done.
I’d scrap salaries altogether and limit States business to one day a fortnight with all speeches terminated once 50% of states members deel they have heard enough. Then we might actually have a body that manages to achieve something other than paying themselves more than they could otherwise earn.
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Leah – I agree with you that the majority of those who sit in the States don’t deserve a pay rise. But they are all up for re-election next year so it will be up to US, the voters who we appoint.
I have no evidence that offering a higher salary would attract a higher calibre of candidate other than that this concept seems to be a globally accepted principle. There are exceptions to this concept, especially in relation to charity type work and where the “love” of the job e.g. agriculture or fishing provides an additional quality of life that can’t be bought and this is partially true of politicians.
What can be evidenced is that the present Salary has failed to attract sufficient interest to enable the voter to appoint a credible and competent government. This is further evidenced by the many comments, including you own, indicating strong dissatisfaction with the present quality of States member.
It is my experience of life that when you try to do something on the cheap you end up pay far more to put matters right later. In this example we have saved a few thousand in Political salaries and are paying many many millions in waste and incompetence. – or do I misunderstand your own comments?
I am just stating that doing nothing in the current climate is simply madness and so far have not seen a single viable alternative to either paying a lot more – not acceptable as were all in a strop – or paying nothing – not acceptable because it is non democratic.
If you have a credible proposal please let us hear it.
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This is unlikely to happen. The story says that an independent review body has made the proposal. It won’t go without comment at a forthcoming states sitting Shenton has assured that.
Any members who have been calling for a pay freeze for public sector employees would dissolve their credibility in seconds if they support the proposal.
I reckon Le Sueur or Ozouf will take a stand on a pay freeze and encourage the house to follow. Anything less would be political suicide!
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Re Donald Pond – There is now one credible alternative suggestion on the table.
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I’m not jumping one way or the other on this but it seems to me that if you want to comment on this independent review board’s recommendations, you should actually read and understand them first, not just go on media hype. All this talk of the States Members having a pay rise when other public sector workers don’t is inaccurate – The States Members have had a one year pay freeze too. Prior to that, their increases did not match other groups, the report syas that for equity they should receive a bigger reward now but does not recommend one because of the current climate – therefore this is still not keeping pace with others. Also with this award, “wysiwyg” there are no hidden extra increases like pension costs. (Dep le Claire’s idea does not come from the Review but is his own) Oh yes – how many of you commentators have raised comments with the Review Board during the previous public consultations?
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The JFSC’s guiding principles require it to have particular regard to:
the reduction of risk to the public of financial loss due to dishonesty,
incompetence, malpractice, or the financial unsoundness of persons
carrying on the business of financial services in or from within Jersey;
the protection and enhancement of the reputation and integrity of Jersey
in commercial and financial matters;
the best economic interests of Jersey.
Can we PLEASE have a commission that covers the States members, COM and CM…. because few if any of them would pass the above!!
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#39 Sanity I have already mentioned the old committee system. It is one that I am led to believe worked well and I do believe that there are enough people in Jersey who really care about Jersey to make it work now although the setup would probably have to change a little to meet the current day needs. Donald Pond does point out what a lot of people clearly think, the States are making up work and debate for themselves to ‘justify’ their position.
No reason Committee Members couldn’t be treated by their full-time employers the same way the honorary police are, giving them a bit more flexibility to fit the role into their life.
I believe that a committee system would actually solve one of the biggest problems of politics. Committees would be able to properly consider the long-term future of the island and make decisions based on that, where current States’ Members are forced (if they want to get re-elected) to only consider what will keep the electorate voting for them in the short-term. There are so many long-term problems facing the island that simply are not being dealt with because the tough decisions needing made to deal with these problems are automatic vote-losers. If a States’ Member loses their position they lose their job, they simply have too much of their personal life invested in their political position to be able to make the really tough decisions.
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For everyone who argued for teachers pay rises, but against the COM, well deserves you right. Teachers were more disgusting in their behaviour demanding far greater than 2%.
It isn’t the COM and States which are numpties, it is the teachers and their ilk!
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Leah – The old Committee system did not work – there was no accountability and nothing ever got done. Hence the clothier report and change to a ministerial system. What this did not address was the quality of States member which in my opinion was the real issue.
With the departure of the old “Establishment” who were indeed business people prepared to do the job in their part time, the quality of States member has got steadily worse. The new generation of popular progressive politicians succeed in making headlines and boast that they can ask awkward questions but in reality don’t have the answers and do very little real work for their £40k.
With reference to MILO did any of the posters above actually get of their posteriors and make a representation to the review board when they asked for peoples comments? It just seems everybody is expecting somebody else to do something. If all those who have complained about States salaries can’t themselves be bothered to set aside half a day to make a representation then I stand by my belief that if we want a quality Government we have to be prepared to pay the going rate.
What is now accelerating the decay of our government, and this has been alluded to by other posters is that the current £40k salary has attracted many of the no hopers from the real world to become “career” politicians, who ask pointless questions, make rambling and ill researched speeches and simply expand the job to fill their egos without actually achieving anything other than to frustrate the attempts of others to get things done. .
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If the Finance Minister does not have the guts or intelligence to propose anything other than tax rises then the states departments will not change their tune. They have a cash cow in the tax payer that can milked daily.
Time for Jersey to rise up, stop the apathy and at least TRY and change.
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‘Teachers were more disgusting in their behaviour demanding far greater than 2%.’
I don’t know about you, Real Truthseeker, but I have used up most of my disgust on the bankers who dropped the rest of us in it, yet are still giving themselves handsome bonuses (apparently to discourage themselves from jumping ship) whilst not being prepared to offer savers anything more than derisory interest.
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Teachers demanding more than 2%? Hey? What are you on about? Teachers asked for 2% in 2009 vs a total freeze, no more, no less.
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Rozel – The bonus culture was only a contributory cause that made good headlines that appealed to the gullible. The real problem was that the banks were lending to poor people who desperately wanted to own their own homes but fell on hard times but of course this does not make good headlines.
The banks are wealth creators only in that they “pump” the money supply around the system to that those of us at the bottom get a share. Without them there would be no investment, no economy, no social infrastructure, schools or hospitals. The likes of you and me would be mere subsistence farmers or surfs if we had been lucky enough to survive childhood.
Don’t feel too left out with respect to bankers bonuses and high salaries. In reality there are very few in the finance industry who receive these, most of us have to work long and hard for our wages.
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‘What is now accelerating the decay of our government, and this has been alluded to by other posters is that the current £40k salary has attracted many of the no hopers from the real world to become “career” politicians, who ask pointless questions, make rambling and ill researched speeches and simply expand the job to fill their egos without actually achieving anything other than to frustrate the attempts of others to get things done. .’
Obviously you have not been following Jersey politics for very long
I can remember fiascos dating back to the 1970′s when the States membership was mainly farmers, shopkeepers, a few retired and some part timers who managed to fit work around their States duties.
We had the same rambling speeches, if anything they were worse. Chestnuts that occured almost every session was, ‘Before the War’ or ‘During the War’ or ‘Before the First War’, sometimes a member would really excel and a particularly mindblowing piece of irrelevant reminiscence would be preceded by a phrase like ‘When I kept pigs’.
If you want an example of the failures they were capable of then look at Fort Regent. This was going to be the leisure centre that would give Jersey the edge in tourism. Because it was designed by the States all sorts of ideas were plugged on to it eg the cable cars that never made any real sense.
A big architect was hired to build it, this accounts for the space dome of the main building and the breaking wave of the now defunct swimming pool building.
During it’s construction it over ran it’s budget like a crazy thing and days were wasted in pointless windbaggery both in the chamber and in the committee charged with it’s care.
After it was built it gulped subsidies like a fish taking water for it’s running costs, how much is hard to fathom as States accounting at the time was even more byzantine and arcane than it is now.
So in my view the faces and the politics have changed but the essence of the place, a bunch of amateurs playing at politics presided over by the Bailiff who acts like he is chairing a debate in a particularly pleasant gentlemen’s club has not.
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To get back to the issue of whether we should try to improve the quality of our politicians or simply keep moaning about them, the headline to day that a single Civil servant is costing us £950 per day plus another £90 allowance. I think this puts politicians salaries into perspective so to all that have commented so far; how much more tax are you prepared to pay in order to get “one up” on those you have elected because I think that somebody is laughing at our collective gullibility.
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#50. being gullible, Sanity, I might just believe your line on bonus culture. Thousands probably wouldn’t.
As regards ‘The likes of you and me would be mere subsistence farmers or surfs if we had been lucky enough to survive childhood.’ Speak for yourself, by all means. I would have been a noble at least. Might even have inherited the St Helier waterfront if my lawyers had been smart enough!
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If the administration had listened to Babcock Wilcox Volund – a multi billion £ company – who offered to build a very modern waste processing plant with heat recovery and 1000 cubic metres per day Alfa Laval seawater desalination – saving more than a £40 MILLION first cost and invested at 5% p.a…there would be more than enough to pay a 2% pay rise whilst maintaining capital value.
Jersey will regret the day that it got into bed with the CNIM incinerator company for little less than £113 MILLION !! plus the cost of disposing of tens of thousands of tons of contaminated bottom and fly ash – totally unsuited, other than minimally – for any useful purpose; not to mention the horrendous running costs.
Surly the administration must have learnt a lesson from that awful Bellozanne plant and all of it’s never ending problems; than to go down that path again !?
In the not too distant future I shall be able to say “I told you so” !! and boy-o-boy at what a cost !!!!
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“The desire and will to become a politician should immediately prevent you from ever becoming one”
“Civil Servant is semantically equal to Civil Master”
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#53 Rozel, I didn’t buy the stuff about the bankers either. Sanity, you are not going to get people to blame the poor folk, simply because they weren’t to blame. Who got them to fill out mortgage application forms, then approved those mortgages? That would be the ‘experts’. Some people will trust that the bankers know best when it comes to mortgages, stupid thought that clearly is you cannot blame them. They did not manage to get a mortgage without consulting ‘experts’ and having ‘experts’ approve it!
As for ‘The likes of you and me would be mere subsistence farmers or surfs if we had been lucky enough to survive childhood.’ I’m with Rozel, what a load of codswollop!
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Words fail me. I’m Jersey-born and bred and work 70-plus hours per week and my tax is sky high.
I do a job many of you wouldn’t dream of doing and work exceptionally long hours, both day and all night. I’m in a rut. Reduce the taxes of those who deserve it and give pay rises to those that deserve it. But to rob us, hard-working people is a disgrace.
When I’m in a position to, I am off to pastures new. You are going to lose many good hard-working people from the pure greed of those that run our Island. greed.com comes to mind!
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