Secret files on States Members ‘threat to democracy’
Thursday 15th July 2010, 2:59PM BST.
Home Affairs Minister Ian Le Marquand.
THE secret police files kept on States Members over three years would have been enough to get police chief Graham Power the sack or a final warning, says Home Affairs Minister Ian Le Marquand.
The long-awaited Wiltshire Constabulary report into Operation Blast has found that Mr Power set up the secret files after being refused permission to start a vetting scheme for politicians to ensure that no one with a shady background or who was open to blackmail ended up in a senior ministerial position.
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I am now pleased to see these rogues all getting exposed for the fakes they really are. Well done Senator Le Marquand!
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Eh! What democracy, apart from being elected democratically I dont believe there is much democracy in the states itself.
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Le marquands cover up continues, why did you abandon the disciplinary process against G Power? Answer because he would have had the opportunity to defend himself 2 years to do it in and you deliberately avoided it. Disgraceful, Le Marquand how many of your judgements as a magistrate where wrong? I hope you can sleep at night some of the abused cant
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”
a vetting scheme for politicians to ensure that no one with a shady background or who was open to blackmail ended up in a senior ministerial position.”
No wonder our whiter than white, holier than thou States Members were twitching about this one !
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If we had as the U.K. has, a freedom of information act, would this have happened ?
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If you’ve nothing to hide you’ve nothing to fear.
Isn’t that what they have been telling us with CCTV, DNA, Identity Cards, etc.
It’s nice to know what they think when the boot is on the other foot.
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Am I the only one who thinks these files are a good idea ? As said in the article GP was refused permission to vet politians to try and prevent those with shady backgrounds or liable to blackmail from entering the States. Could you imagine what this Island would be like if our States Members might be able to take backhanders to push through favourable legislation for certain people or businesses or entered the States to better their own vested interests, just think what a mess that would leave the Island in !
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I’m not sure I’m following this. Surely there should have been a vetting scheme in the first place, thereby negating the need for Graham Power to even have to have considered keeping secret files. Somebody should be checking that the States’ Members are all above board – shouldn’t they?
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I am afraid we have far greater threats to democracy than this, as it is on it’s knees here already…large numbers sign petitions..overuled…people protest..overuled,,,people dissapointed and fed up..overuled…
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Well who else is there to keep an eye on states members? How many have them have been charged with criminal offences in recent times from election fraud to data protection offences? How can we trust the grand muppet show that is our collection of politicians all competing with each other and trying to bring each other down….. Scrutiny is not working and privileges and procedures are toothless. Power may have been out of control but ministers are also running out of control and completely unchecked…. Euro loss disaster health disasters serious case review…. Temp treasurer @ £350k pa. Air traffic training £500 per person per day. Let’s get it all in perspective?
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If this is true,why would the States not go along with Mr Power’s scheme,which seems perfectly reasonable to me?Something or somebody to hide perhaps?
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Technically, that should be ‘threat to majoritarianism’. Actually, given voter turnout, it’s more like minoritarianism. Glad I sorted that out. So it was a ‘threat to minoritarianism’ and that’s not ‘rule by minors’ either. Although that may actually be preferable.
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Just let me get this right!
Power and in particular his minions kept some info on States Members in a locked cupboard in the Kremlin.
This ‘could ‘ be used for anti-democratic purposes ‘if’ the info. was leaked to third parties.
Fair enough! but these are our police and although it might seem contradictory the do need ‘police intelligence’ to operate effectively. Wiltshire agrees that these files were never intended for ‘vetting’ purposes.
So far so good , none of this gives me any loss of sleep.
But then Wiltshire make a recommendation that;Consideration should be given that
‘Prospective ‘applicants’ (their words not mine)for political office should be vetted BEFORE putting themselves forward’
Hold on a minute! just how anti-democratic is that , in that some undisclosed body of ‘right-minded’ should say who should stand for election !!!!
If this is the calibre and intent of the Wiltshire Report and ILM sticks by it’s ‘right-minded ‘ conclusions then I for one are collecting pallets from Normans for the barricades.
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The dirty underbelly of politics in Jersey? The conspiracy theorist has only to follow the posts on this BLOG to be sated with all the dirt they could ever want and more, but that is no solution.
What we need is transparent Government. However well meaning politicians, especially CoM members, doing apparent deals with developers does not fill me with confidence. Operation Blast was wrong, very wrong, and two wrongs do not make a right, but then there are probably States Members who would recoil from the prospect of transparent Government.
Defeat the conspiracy theorist with transparent Government!
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I too think that there is a very significant threat to democracy being highlighted here! The Island’s most senior police officer suspended for two years pending unstated disciplinary charges being brought. Those same charges are then dropped and a carefully orchestrated government propaganda exercise commences using selected extracts from a heavily redacted report. Notice how Le Marquand’s version of events neatly skips over such matters as the Wiltshire Constabulary wishing to interview Bill Ogley and that interview being vetoed by the Attorney General or that his own expenses incurred during this period of investigation amounted to three times those of Harper’s during the H de LG enquiry. It is not a matter of taking sides, it is a matter of being told the truth! The government are using the media to carry out character assassinations that they could not achieve by fair means. If this is allowed to continue both the government and the media will find themselves on a slippery slope that is hard to get off.
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What a joke these politicians’ are -when they breached data protection against the public-necessary evil, boots on the other foot, now it’s a disgrace and should not be allowed.
If this does not make the people of Jersey realise that the politicians’ are the ‘threat to democracy’ then God help us !!!!!
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On behalf of Team Voice we believe Lenny Harper has done nothing wrong but has been the a victim scandalous smear campaign because he is Irish.
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Team voice 17
As with Jerseymen, Englishmen and Irishmen, there are ‘Bad Apples’ in many barrels.
Alexander Pope in the 17th century said’ The Irish are a wise race.. they never speak well of themselves’.
If only most of our politicians understood what he meant!
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It seems common sense to me that prospective states members are vetted. After all they are given significant power and responsibility and we wouldn’t want them abusing this – oh too late!
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#7 & 8, I totally agree. Anyone else in a position of power these days gets vetted, why would politicians be any different. I also suspect the States didn’t like it because of what might be discovered. Someone needs to be checking for bribery or blackmail given some of the decisions the States make!
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No.17
i also cant see how lenny harper has done anything wrong. squandering thousands of tax payer pounds on lavish meals, alcohol and top london hotels, and first class flying seems fair to me.
Its not because hes irish, its because he was totally irresposible. Grow up sonny.
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print all these files on the web or give them to a bloger lets see what these bandits are trying to hide alot i would think
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I don’t believe politicians should be dealt with any differently to anyone else. That said, I fail to see how the additional files collated under the instructions Mr Power could be a threat to democracy.
There would already be documentation, or more likely nowadays computerised files giving details of the subjects’ convictions, as there is with everyone else who had a conviction of one sort or another. Also there might be intelligence on a person’s suspected involvement in crime, or link with criminals.
I imagine most police forces in the U.K. hold such data, as will the Police National Computer.
I suspect Ian Le Marquand is being a tad over dramatic.
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“I don’t believe politicians should be dealt with any differently to anyone else.”
If the police keep secret files in relation to everyone then by definition, it is a police state. I have never committed a criminal offence and would be very upset if the police had a file about me.
And what would the police do with the files? Tip off the chief minister that Deputy X or Senator Y may be being blackmailed? And if that became public knowledge, imagine the uproar – Chief Minister and Police in conspiracy to discredit Senator Y.
This is the opposite of transparency and fraught with dangers. It is not something that Power and a few others can do on the side, under a label “Top Secret”.
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#9 truthseeker – there is no threats to democracy. These are elected by the people, and accordingly do their job, which is what we task them to do. Just because you may not like their decisions, does not make it a wrong one, or a challenge to democracy, nor does the impact of protests/petitions, in fact the ability to protest and submit petitions does in fact demonstrate democracy is alive and well. I woudl most certainly hope that our elected representatives do not make their decisions due to protests/petitions, as they woudl simply be following the dog whistling of a vocal minority. I am well please that democracy is very healthy here in Jersey. The fac tyou are unhappy with it pleases me even more!
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#25 Real Truthseeker
‘in fact the ability to protest and submit petitions does in fact demonstrate democracy is alive and well’ –
That made me laugh!
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Roger Phelgm # 24.Everyone will have a file on him or her somewhere; be it with the Parish Hall, Income Tax Department, Passport Office, Registrar or whatever. It is generally nothing to worry about…..it’s been going on for years.
In Germany they have the ‘Verfassungsshutz’ – The Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution. It is the Federal Republic of Germany’s domestic intelligence service whose main function is the observation and surveillance of anti-constitutional activities in Germany.
Who knows why the cops wanted to collate information on States Memebers in Jersey – most of them are pretty boring.
Whilst many people don’t like the idea, I doubt it would have had a lot of impact on the workings of the States.
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Why Gary? If it weren’t democratic as some alarmists suggest, then this type of activity woudl result in arrest. What is all this abotu lack of democracy? Since moving to JErsey I have found politicians here approachable (as long as you don’t behave offensively), and government departments accessible and relatively reasonable. I may not agree always with a politicians decision, however a politician will always offend someone, it is the nature of their job. They are by and large hard workers (though like anyone there are exceptions). What is the point in makign far fetched allegations and untruths about such things?
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#28 Real Truthseeker,
A democracy requires politicians to represent those who elected them. Unfortunately most of our politicians seem to represent only themselves (eg GST petition).
A democracy requires transparency and accountability – even Guernsey is far more transparent than us!
In our States, we have non elected officials, a COM who is elected in a bizarre fashion – please don’t tell me that TLS would be the people’s choice) and Deputies of small parishes with an electorate of a few hundred who have been appointed Ministers of departments over Senators.
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Gary, nothgin you state means there isn’t a democracy.
Firstly, if our elected representatives only followed petitions, we woudl have zero tax! Clearly politicians have to make unpopular but fiscally necessary decisions. GST is one of them. I would be very concerned if any parliament followed a petition.
We elect members to make decisions and undertake actions on our behalf as our representatives. Senators (island wide) and Deputies (Parishes) do exactly that. Just because they make decisions you dont’ liek doesn’t mean they aren’t right or not a democracy (eg. the States decided on TLS for whatever reason the States believed was right , experience etc.). Just because you personally don’t like the man doesn’t make it the wrong decision.
I re-state my point, this is a democracy – straight up. Stop his alarmist, vocal minority rubbish.
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Real Truthseeker 28
Jersey is not a Democracy, it’s a ‘Dough-ocracy’…money rules!
And the handling of ‘the money’ is not transparent enough for most people from these parts…
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Big Bard at 31: The financial budgets of the States are availabel on their website. It isn’t completely detailed, but neither is any government in the world. If this is the simple basis of your argument, then democracy doesn’t exist anywhere. Look at the definition, Jersey has a free electoral system, and the supreme power of the State is held by elected representatives.
End of story. Jersey has a democracy. Simple. Stop this ridiculous alarmist argument. Anyone woudl think you lot have it ‘tough’, and that you are in some sort of concentration camp. GET A GRIP!
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Money does not rule, well no different to anywhere else because we live in a market economy, money plays a crucial aspect to our lives to enable ourselves to travel, communicate, eat, clothe ourslves…
It doesn’t detract fromthe simple fact – Jersey is a democracy. Anyone woudl think you have it touch in some concentration camp. GET A GRIP! Life here is very good compared to just about everywhere else. Just because you are selfish and want more doesn’t change the fact.
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Gary 29. You appear very naive. In reality we have thousands of unelected officials which we call civil servants. Whilst most appear placid and get on with their jobs there are many who have unilaterally decided that part of their duties is the dictation of policy to the states. To harp on about the Bailiff and Governor without due thought as to the reality of their posts is rather childish. Neither have any real power of voting rights. Unlike elected politicians both of these persons are selected on merit and ability and have a duty to remain impartial. If these posts were “elected” positions we would have TLC as president and probably Frank Walker as Speaker and you would still moan.
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Well put Sanity!
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# 30 RealTruthseeker – Many political decisions in Switzerland are done by referendum of the people – from recycling of waste to immigation. Referendums are the norm in many western countries on issues that really effect people. In effect, a petition signed by 19,000 people is a people’s referendum and it should have been listened to. The people who signed it were not asking for the removal of all tax (I think you are underestimating the intelligence of the populace), they were demanding an alternative to GST.
You have not answered my question on transparency. Let me give you two examples: Members’ business and financial interests are available on the Guernsey Greffe website – a visit to the greffe is required to find ours, and – how many democracies in the western world hold as many government meetings in camera (secret) as Jersey does?
#34:Sanity – so anyone who doesn’t believe in the role of a Bailiff or Governor in the States of Jersey is rather childish? I think that most civilised countries in the modern world would not tolerate unelected officials in their governments – in fact, I believe that they don’t.
As for TLS & FW, I seem to remember that both scraped in in their last election campaigns, so no, I don’t believe that in a true democracy they would have succeeded to those ‘elected’ positions.
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#30 Gary: The members details are available full stop. So you can’t get up and visit the Greffe? Doesn’t matter as it is still available. Secondly, nowhere else that I am aware of does a petition or referendum in the Western World override government decisions on tacation or anything: Australia, New Zealand, United Kingdom, France, or United states does a petition happen. Referendum’s in NZ, Australia and USA are only used to change the underlyign government structure as it applies to the Constitution ONLY. NOTHING ELSE – and certainly not GST. In fact when Australia brought in a GST there was much greater proportions of the population against it, and ti was still ignored. Next you will tell me Australia is not a democracy! Laughable.
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Further – to add to your comments about TLS and FW, so by your argument then the UK, Australia, New Zealand also are not true democracies? The most popular person isn’t the head there either. Your understanding of the word democracy is one of the most clearly unintelligible reponses on the JEP blog this year!
I do howp they have a vote on the most ridiculous statements of all year when it comes to the end of it – you will win hands down.
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Real Truthseeker 38.
You seem to be missing the point, this is not about a non-democratic regime which openly arrests people for “anti-regime” propaganda, it’s about despots who simply ignore the Vox populi.
Comments such as those made by Gary are not rooted in naive idealism but in the fact that any opposition to important decisions is simply ignored. This is a dangerous form of abuse of power and, does not go unnoticed by the more informed and concerned citizens of Jersey.
You also overlook the large number of citizens who do not ‘bother’ to vote (mainly because they believe it is unlikely things will change in the forseeable future). The low turnout says an awful lot about the lack of faith/trust the majority of citizens have in the present governmental setup. In fact, we could say that the people in power are not voted in, but are simply “Not voted out!” Therefore, I suggest that it is far more naive to believe that “all is well in the States of Jersey”, than to believe it is not.
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Born warrior….So true the list of things done behind closed doors is astounding…just look at the recently departed guitar strumming health boss story in the paper…every day there is profligacy exposed,people paid off without the public being allowed to know how much of their money was given away,,,the guitar strummer is another fine example…we still don’t know..I have asked on here and directly to states members …is the rainy day fund still intact…no answer then and I expect none now…yes it’s been spent I suspect…but be open about it or heaven forbid honest…No..this is not an open and democratic govt.it is an autocratic combination of rich boys and dangerously manipulative civil servants…but there are none so blind as those who do not wish to see.
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Well said Born Warrior! I think maybe Real Truthseeker is a Jersey Politician?
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#33 – Real Truthseeker – I do not believe that we live in a non-democretic regime, at the end of the day we all have a vote, however, my point is that on a scale of one to ten on examples of functioning democracies – Jersey would be marked pretty low.
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