Members’ pay freeze proposed
Wednesday 25th August 2010, 3:57PM BST.
Senator Ben Shenton.
REDUCING States Members’ pay, effectively taxing benefits and cutting overseas aid are part of a range of cuts worth £7m proposed by Senator Ben Shenton.
The Senator has tabled 47 amendments to the States Business Plan that will be debated next month, and says that ‘it is time to allocate ministers what they need, not what they want’.
And he says that with the deficit looming, this generation of States Members and Islanders need to face up to its responsibilities rather than passing on financial burdens to future generations.
• See Wednesday’s JEP for full story, including a summary of the amendments.
Read the full story in the Jersey Evening Post. Click here for subscription details. Individual editions are also available online.
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Should have done this in the beginning.
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Cutting overseas aid would be a very sad day. It is so important to recognise that others are in a much more difficult situation than us, sometimes as a result of our wealth. The ‘look after our own’ first attitude, though very human, is not the way to solve the world’s mess. Shame to see Ben Shenton go this way, trying to make Jersey a slightly more selfish and greedy place.
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Can we start with a free on Social Security Minister Ian Gorst.
http://www.thisisjersey.com/2010/08/25/recession-hits-average-pay/
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Unlike Ian Gorst’s message from Oz, “You’ve never had it so good”, this is more in line with the unpleasnt reality that the island wil have to face over the next few years and maybe longer.
The States will have to do a lot less or do it a lot cheaper with less staff and we will all have to pay more as well.
I suppose we whould just be grateful that he did not insult our intelligence more by telling us “You’ve got money coming out of your ears, you!”
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good man ben. you will have many of the public behind you.
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Sorry Ben, what the hell is the point in taxing benefit payments, people will simply apply for more !!! – yet another head up a**e comment from another out of touch politician
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Rather than tax benefits, we should encourage those who should be in work, to find work and get back into the taxpayer system. That requires more jobs. That requires growth in the economy.
Rather than freeze the pay of states members, how about increasing their pay to £100k per annum plus expenses and reduce their number by half. You will then attract better candidates from areas of expertise where we need it most – finance, health, etc, etc which will lead to more decisive positive action instead of the clueless bluster we generally get.
Would put a rocket up the current lot – Ben you’d be ok by me, though,
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I suppose rude comments is something you have to put up with these days. Here are the actual facts.
This is based on an actual case albeit names have been changed.
John is a Jersey born and educated white-collar worker aged 31 and married with two young children (wife does not work). He earns £31,640 per annum, rents in the private sector, and pays £1,447.20 in income tax and £1,898.40 in Social Security annually.
His annual income after tax and social security is £28,294.40.
Serge is from Eastern Europe and came to the Island 6 years ago. He is also 31, has 2 young children (wife does not work) and works in retailing. He earns £15,000 per annum.
Serge does not pay any income tax as his earnings are so low, in fact as he does not earn enough the taxpayer picks up a supplementation charge of a few thousand pounds to cover his shortfall in Social Security earnings. Serge receives £16,540 in Income Support – putting his gross earnings up to £31,640.00. However as he does not pay any tax, and much less Social Security, his net income is £30,740.00 – some £2,499.60 per annum higher than John’s (8.8%).
In order to incentivise Serge into getting a second job to provide for his family the Income Support System ‘incentivises’ him by continuing to pay support well above his current income levels. If he gets a second job paying £16,540 he can claim £3,952 per annum income support – pushing his gross earnings up to £35,592 – even though technically he is earning the same as John – albeit he will now be contributing in income tax. Remember John pays tax and takes home just over £28,000.
Discuss……..Mogit thinks this is OK.
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selfishben No.2
The proposal is to freeze overseas aid for one year, not cut it as reported, and introduce Gift Aid. Gift Aid will be highly beneficial to local charities such as Hospice and Headway as well as overseas charities. It increases the individual’s contribution by approximately 20% by reclaiming the tax paid and giving it to the charity concerned.
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When Jersey had money flowing into its coffers as a tax haven,public sector pay was increased accordingly way beyond UK equivelant salaries.Now this small island, bereft of the golden cash cow,with hostile federalist policies from the EEC mounting,has no prospects and no future.The short term solution of build and build to increase the population and hence tax revenue is no answer. It merely compounds the problem with added economic burdens in the socio economic infrastructure of social services, education,pensions and the added cost of public utilities to service new housing developments, and as Senator Shenton says, simply passes on financial burdens to future generations.
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Ben
So let me understand what you’re proposing. Both cases you quoted earn under the average wage (according to the latest report). You’re suggesting that Serge does two jobs and foregoes family life in order to contribute to society through paying taxes. Do you think this is a desirable social policy?
let me put it another way. Average earnings in finance including bonuses is £49,400. Lets imagine for the sake of argument that 70% of this sector earn around £30,000 this means 30% are earning £95,000. If we introduced a progressive tax system in which those earning over the average wage paid 30% on those earnings you could raise a further 18% (approx) in tax revenue and jersey would still be one of the lowest tax regimes in europe…
Won’t happen of course easier to tax the poor..
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Interesting illustration Senator Shenton – isn’t part of the problem the difference between income support rates and tax and social security allowances?
If income support is calculated as the minimum amount required to live at a basic level, then surely tax and social security allowances should be similar.
In a simple case, if a single person renting a one bedroom flat is entitled to £12,721 income support, shouldn’t a single person who is working be able to earn at least that amount before he/she has to start paying tax and social security? Either income support is too high or tax/social security allowances are too low.
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Mr Shenton – why has the situation regard to immigrant workers receiving so much benefit allowed to happen – this man is a total drain on the island – he receives £16,000 welfare – I CANNOT BELIEVE I AM READING THIS.
HOW MANY MORE OF THESE PEOPLE ARE IN THE ISLAND AND GETTING THIS SORT OF HANDOUTS?
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Ah Sen Ben, any comment perceived as rude has nothing to do with these times, rather they are an inevitable consequence of placing yourself on the parapet, can’t have it both ways my friend.
This of course is a thinly veiled racist comment intended to provoke a response from a well known and long established racist community. Why is it relevant that case 1 John is Jersey born and case 2 Serge is an eastern European ( read Polish )does this pass for subtlety on your turf
If we disregard the obvious racist undertone I am dismayed that such a large amount of money is being given to anyone resident in the island. £15,000 income support, did this individual find himself in this situation or has his wife never worked, why does he have children if he can’t afford to support them? Did he arrive in Jersey and qualify for benefit immediately or was there a waiting period and if so how did he manage in the intervening period?
Only half a story I’m afraid, may we have a more complete picture. I read recently on this forum of a man who had worked for 30 years and found himself made redundant, he approached Social Security for assistance only to be told he was not eligible and also he had to continue to pay social security whilst unemployed, does anyone else think this unfair?
I recall some 15 years ago breaking my leg and being unable to work for 3 months, I received no assistance other than sick pay and was reliant upon friends for food, my meagre savings just covered my rent, when did we start to pay benefit?
Apologies for my ignorance, I have worked for 25 years and apart from statutory sick pay, have never claimed a penny, here’s hoping I don’t need to.
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Yes I certainly would not wish to feed pearls to swine, I can thus understand where Senator Ben Shenton is coming from.
Karl,7 has the right idea but I would go a bit further. Let the States membership become 24 voting Senators on an all Island vote @ £100k per year and the 12 Constables with a voice but no vote there for the honour that they so claim to highly relish. The elections to take place on the first Wednesday of November each 5th year. I have just woken up and must have been dreaming. The Deputies will not vote themselves out of a job with all that glory and cash,of course some of the back street ones who promised their voters the earth to get into the States and obviously could not deliver will be rumbled. The Constables, I hope that they are still reading their Janet and John Book One as recommended by the late and highly intelligent Senator Lakeman, will also want to keep their very fat bag of sweets without sharing.
I need to return to my peaceful slumber.
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Well put Senator Ben Shenton (8).
Overpopulated (13) Mr Shenton – why has the situation regard to immigrant workers receiving so much benefit allowed to happen?
Good point Overpopulated! Ask Social Security Minister Ian Gorst, he is the man with a lot to say, but no answers.
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Why the heck is Serge getting £16,540 income support? That is over £300 a week.
So that is where the hell my taxes and social security payments are going. I survive on much less than both John & Serge are earning.
Maybe I should go and ask for income support.
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#17 CKH
You took the words out of my mouth. I am amazed that we are paying for these people. Why the hell is he getting over his annual wage in handouts. I just cannot believe what I am reading! No wonder this island is almost broke!!!
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well said Mr Shenton. It is unbelievably unfair on the real hard workers. I will support anyone like you who tries to make it right. I think you have a very difficult job ahead which many do not appreciate!
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No 14. I do not mind not receiving income support, as I have savings above the £8k limit. What I object to is paying £100 a week social security contributions, as do unemployed self-employed tradesmen, and unemployed people who were forced to retire on small pensions before the age of 60.
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yeah come to Jersey the island of plenty,just like the UK.
Everywhere else on the globe have a strict policy on emigration but here anything goes!
Don,t matter no work for locals they can,t work anywhere else but the UK as their passport has seen to that.
Claim for every-thing you can bring your pals over,tell them all of the rich pickings.just what a soft touch Jersey is.
Bring the whole family over while your at it,things
can only get better!
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8 –
Surely if “Surge” takes on another job paying £16,540pa then together with the income from his first job he should be paying full income tax and social security and any benefits should be stopped automatically???
When I had to give up my job when I fell pregnant 4 years ago (because they discontinued by contract but then offered to make my permanent after 3 months ‘maternity leave’ (so they didn’t have to pay me))my husbands income was all we had – just over £25,000 at that time, before taxes, I went to social and asked if there was anything they could do and they just said NO because he earned too much.
Yet “Surge” who before taking a second job is given a consierable amount in benefits, pays no tax and has reductions in social security payments even though taking home more than £30,000pa (in total) and when taking in a second job has an income of over £31,000 can STILL claim for and receive benefits….
How is this fair ???
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I think many of you will be surprised at the levels of income support that are paid out. I know of one local woman in her early twenties who has had 3 children by 3 different partners, none of whom lives with or supports the children. She gets around £590 a week and has a nice states house. She also gets additional money for “emergencies”. She has NEVER worked and intends to have more children.
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Senator Ben Shenton 8.
Does that mean that all those Jersey-born families (unemployed husband wife and two chldren) receive £31,640.00 a year in benefits? What will be done to incentivise them (husband and wife)into getting a FIRST job to provide for themselves and their children?
I have to agree with Mulvie Le Phew’s observation, regarding the obvious racist undertone (“Serge is from Eastern Europe…”), not the most delicate of examples.
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I would like to see the cases of people who habitually claim sickness benefit reviewed regularly to see if they really need to be in receipt of sickness benefit or are just using a lax system to avoid working. I’ve seen employees abuse it with my own eyes and the Island must be wasting £millions each year so that skivers can “work” the system. The problem is just as much that GPs are too quick to offer a sick certificate. Check it out.
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Phil 25 Annual examination of people on sickness benefit will prove nothing just make more money for the doctor to examine them. I know of people who have been examined for benefit and they describe the cursory examination by the doctor as complete nonsense.
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Thank god at least one politician gets the fact we need to reduce spending and having read his 52 page amendment to the budget I have to say he has really done his work and it is a very very good piece of work. While some of the savings will affect me and some won’t we simple must not put up taxes or the island is finished so I am really pleased to read this fantastic amendment.
I did not vote for Ben Shenton at the last election but will next time as he has done his home work on where we can save money put it all together and put it forward.
Well done and thank you Senator Shenton
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#23 I know of one local woman in her early twenties who has had 3 children by 3 different partners … none of whom lives with or supports the chilShe has NEVER worked and intends to have more children.’
She would do well to space them out, one every sixteen years until the menopause, then start adopting!
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7. Karl
Absolutely agree – double the pay, up the calibre, and halve the States members. If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys,,,and we are running out of bananas!
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She must need her head tested!
Given the choice between working and spending my days and nights locked in child care I would go for work every time.
Friday night I have my feet up and G&T in hand, barring accidents I am not going to see the office until Monday morning.
Plus computers have bad habits but they do not fill nappies with green poo at 3am!
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One look at Jersey’s benefits system and what you see is unmitigated disaster. This unpalatable situation raises a necessary question: who allowed this to happen?
This is a question that must be asked. There is no use denying facts.
Senator Shenton put things very clearly in his rather racially-discriminatory example of ‘Welfare-system unfairness’ (dressed up a cloak of ‘feeling’ for those who toil for a living…to give it cover).
Senator Shenton’s post proves that the present system is grossly inequitable and although some might thank him for revealing the shocking truth, I believe that when politicians feel they need to ‘parade’ a specific non-indigenous group in order to convince people of an argument, they are really trying to distract attention from the real cause of the problem…in this case, the incapable government and sluggish political system that allowed benefits to become out of kilter with respect to the tax system.
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Pip Clement 30.
There are such a thing as babysitters, so I’m sure the lady in question doesn’t spend all her evenings in. As for sleepness nights, well, she doesn’t have to get up for work now, does she?
And what problems do a few sh**ty nappies cause? Some people have to put up with sh**ty bosses…and you can’t roll them up and put them in the bin!
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Well said Ben Shenton,
New line up after the next election.
Bob Hill Chief Minister.
Ben Shenton Treasurer
Sarah Ferguson Economics Minister
Alan Breckon Airports and Harbours
Puffin Planning
( anyones better than present Minister.)
These people and bird, work hard and have their moral compasses working fully tuned, and listen to the public.
Davey.
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I understand Senator Shenton wants to cut the Tourism budget. This will have a greater impact on our discretionary budget than most of the other ideas.
We all moan that flights / boats off the island are expensive, that is nothing compared to what they will cost if Tourism isn’t supporting th airport and harbour.
We also forget that a lot of tourist’s cash stays in the island further helping the economy rather than being collected off island.
I used to groan when stuck behind a H car in the 80′s but I firmly believe Tourism is vital to a stable island economy.
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Davey West (33) New line up after the next election.
YES go for it, you will have my vote.
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Ben – twist it,turn it, colour it, cloud it – whichever way you look at it, we are in the brown smelly stuff BECAUSE of the political mismanagement shown by the States and now we are expected to bail out the bad decisions made – sorry your story may illustrate what you see as wrong, but who made the decisions that allowed this to happen in the first place!
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To Nuova vista
Thanks very nice of you but a problem ? How can I have your vote if I am not one of the names mentioned ?
I really think Puffin would be good for planning because Puffin would look after the coast line and cares about people especially young people and does not want to ruin Jerseys natural country by covering it in concrete.
Take care Nuova vista and use your vote next time together with your family and friends, you will probably be a lot poorer with tax rises by then as we all shall be.
Davey.
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To Davey West (37) Sorry a misunderstanding. I thought you were to be the ‘new party’ chairman.
Not so sure about Puffin though, his alter ego was thrown out at the last election. Something about a ‘burning issue’ and a threat to the coast line. But I may have got that wrong.
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Well put Senator Ben Shenton this should have happen a long time ago
Mr Shenton – why has the situation regard to immigrant workers receiving so much benefit allowed to happen? I am Jersey born from a generation of Jersey born as are my children I worked all my life but when made redundant due to my age I was not offered or given any help, in the end having to leave the island of my birth, because I could not afford to stay.
Excellent point Overpopulated! why not ask your English Social Security Minister Ian Gorst, he is the man with a lot to say, but never has any answers.
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#29 ‘If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys’
This wisecrack was mildly amusing when first made but its widespread subsequent use doesn’t actually make it a fact. It is still merely a wisecrack.
However, the “I am so wonderful that I should be paid far more” brigade must be regularly thanking everyone who uses it in the hope that, given enough exposure, it will eventually treated as a fact.
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Bob Hill as chief minister?
I wouldn’t put him in charge of a car boot sale.
Shents could be chief minister. I struggle to see any other viable stop Ozouf candidate.
Oh for someone with a bit of vision, some practical experience and a decent education…
Most States members wouldn’t even get an interview, let alone the job.
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I wish Kevin Keen would stand as a candidate for Senator. I think he has an honest and direct approach to things, and would bring some fiscal sanity to the States. He turned Jersey Milk around, and would make an excellent Treasury Minister, or Chief Minister.
Ben Shenton if he genuinely posted, has shown what is happening in this island, and with no disrespect to any eastern european, I doubt I could land those kind of benefits in their country. We truly have to ensure our own are looked after first. It’s a British trait, soft and skint!
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40. In response I’ll define my comments and avoid “wisecracks”:
If you offer £40K a year to people qualified or experienced to earn £20K then you are not getting value for money. Basic business models would confirm this.
If you pay £80K to someone with 30+ years of experience (preferably in running a business) and halve the number of States members, one would hope they take half the time to understand an issue and therefore the 50% who are overpaid wouldn’t be required.
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Hi Cathy,
I am not going to name names, if you know the States well you will already know who these are!
There are several Deputies and at least one Constable I can think of off the top of my head that farmed in a somewhat desultory way before being elected to the States where their careers of not doing much at all have continued.
The State are elected not appointed!
Cutting the number of members would result in the same selection of monkeys but we would pay them more per head and the decisions would be more idiosyncratic than now.
Less monkeys so therefore more would rest on one vote and it might be the ringbinder voting that day!
I really think that you should read a good book on democratic systems and popular representation, compared with you Jeremy Macon is a political giant.
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Senator Shenton went quiet very quickly…so much for his proposal to “Discuss”!
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You have wounded me deeply Pip
– I am basing my suggestion on the assumption that the calibre is “par excellence”.
So do you not agree with Clothier either? With regard to reducing States members, to be honest up to this moment I though the only people who wanted the status quo were the members themselves.
Or do you support a reduction but a smaller one?
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46. Cathy – yes we need a reduction of States Members but it’s the Constables we need out of the States. Let them enter the States Chamber to put forward any pertinent matters (as in times past when the States used to call a Constable into the Chamber when necessary) but they should not have a vote. It’s this blanket vote of Constables that skews the votes every time. Apart from Constable Crowcroft the Constables will always follow the COM / Establishment Party.
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47. Nellie
I think the Constables have a larger mandate than many deputies Nellie. Perhaps keep the Constables and Senators and get rid of the deputies?
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In my view we should have moved dowbn the route proposed ny Clothier.
We need around 50 members as by the time the Ministers, Assistant Ministers, etc have been appointed we have a good twenty odd on the CoM list so we need at least a similar number to provide a loyal opposition.
My preferred option would have been one class of member elected from multimember constituencies weighted for population.
This would have given the home parishes quite a few more seats at the expense of the country parishes and it would have lead to the diapperance of the ‘inherited’ seat.
But this is unlikely to happen and we will continue with the present system where a vote in St Mary is worth twenty times a vote in St Helier!
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“I think the Constables have a larger mandate than many deputies Nellie. Perhaps keep the Constables and Senators and get rid of the deputies?”
Only one or two Constables have any kind of mandate at all. The rest have emerged from a system of Buggin’s turn within the Honorary police, road’s inspectors and other parish functionaries.
While they vote with the CoM almost all the time they are the most conservative members of the house and will support the satus quo if at all possible.
A house made up of Senators and Constables would not vote for tax rises or cuts, it would please nobody, and the island would be in a bigger mess than it is now.
The fact is that Jersey has been very lucky for the past decades, things were going so well that we really did not need a government.
Now we actually need the machine to work even the Chamber Of Commerce is begginning to realise that the Hill Street Debating Club is not up to the job!
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