Drains fail to cope
Friday 27th August 2010, 2:59PM BST.
Dealing with the floods at Grands Vaux (01036149)
YESTERDAY’S torrential rain was too extreme for Jersey’s drains to cope with, according to the chief officer of Transport and Technical Services.
John Rogers said that the intensity of the weather, which saw the Island hit with as much rain in three hours as it normally receives in a month, had overwhelmed the system.
‘Our drainage system was designed robustly but it can’t cope with rain like that,’ he said.
‘The system worked to its limit, the gullies were clear and it was not blocked, but in some areas the pressure cased it to pop.
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Wasn’t the huge cavern built at Fort Regent supposed to have alleviated the problem with the flooding drains? More wasted money.
Didn’t the Cheif Officer of Transport & Technical Services foresee the potential for this problem? There’s an old military maxim, “Failing to plan, is palnning to fail” Or, “Proper palnning prevents pathetic performance.” But then this is par for the course for our highly paid civil servants.
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Blue Knight your right! we should also be preparing for earthquakes and volcanoes also, luccky your not in charge of states spending!
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i quite agree with Blue Knight. it seems that the SofJ are good at wasting money on big projects that will be the answer to all our problems, but given a bit of rain and we are told that ‘ it can’t cope with rain like that,’.
surely rain is rain!
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There’s a limit to just how much freak conditions you design a system for. You’d have moaned if they’d have spent several times as much as they did, just for this extremely rare occurrence. Although it could be argued that maybe they just didn’t appreciate how ‘rare’ such events were likely to get with all the climate change going on!
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@Blue Knight
Why so critical? The system works normally, no reasonable amount of investment could have prevented flooding when a blue moon event like this occurs.
How about saying something positive ?
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As to the Cavern, million’s well spent don’t you think ? blind leading the blind as usual with taxpayers money.
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Just as well it was low tide yesterday afternoon because where would of all the rain water gone then!!
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Josh (5) say something positive? Yes money down the drain. Is that positive enough.
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Blue Knight – moaning for the sake of moaning I assume?
So had the cavern been built 10 times bigger, and all the pipes around town 10 times bigger, at a cost of probably several hundred million, you would be happy?
Do you remember how often the area around Romerils used to flood? Now when did that last happen? Oh yes, before the cavern was dug out! You have a short, short memory….
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4 Fran 5 Josh – they did spend several times as much as the cavern was budgeted for, but never finished it. Im assuming you are too young to remember that flooding has been happening in this area of town for as long as I can remember, it is not a one off nor an isolated incident and perhaps if we had finished the cavern it would possibly be able to cope.
Whatever your viewpoint there is no escaping the fact that this is a shining example of failure by the States and the frivolous waste of an enormous sum of money which leads us to the current day . . . . .
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Beanbaby # 2. I wasn’t speaking of contingency plans for earthquakes and volcanos, just floods. Over the years there has been a history of flooding in the island especially when there have been very high tides, heavy rain and windy conditions.
I wouldn’t want to do a job that I am not qualified to do, but I expect the people that are in charge to do their job properly.
Josh Holmes # 5. What can you say that is positive about the failure of the island’s infrastructure? I am sure that the many businesses and householders that have suffered as a result of the flooding that occurred on the 26th of August 2010 don’t have anything positive to say about flooding.
We are all aware of climate change and the large and very expensive cavern was supposed to cope with the flooding in St. Helier. We have seen floods before along the south coast and the Transport and Technical Department need to learn from such occurences and plan to reduce the likelihood of recurrences.
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Damned if they do, damned if they don’t!
If TTS had overspent on a “once in a 100 years” scenario, we would have screamed “waste of money”
Town used to flood regularly up to the Town Church, I believe you can still see flood lines there. My sympathy goes to the businesses and hopefully they have adequate insurance including loss of revenue.
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We had a very narrow escape from what could have been far worse.
If it had come few hours later so that it coincided with the high tide then the flooding would have occured on a much greater scale with far more of the Esplanade / Harbour area being inundated.
Another factor is that front and back gardens have been paved over to provide parking or patio areas removing areas where water could drain away instaed of runnong off on to the street
If such events become more likely and frequent then we will have to beef up our drainage systems.
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The weather we have had this summer is a natural cycle, as the southern hemisphere had an El Nino ealier this year. The next knock on effect will be the current El Nina causing a possible 70 percent chance of extra Hurricane activity this Autumn. And the clowns want to sink the Esplande. SNAFU!
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Josh, with you on this one, the cavern was designed to prevent the flooding that used to submerge broad street/ charing cross every spring tide 30 years and more ago. It has done this perfectly well. It wasn’t designed for the freak conditions where a months rain fell in 3 hours. Although,of course, it gives yet another opportunity for the forum whingers. I’m only surprised TLS hasn’t been blamed for the rain yet…
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Some of the flooding in my local area, at least, was caused by leaves and debris over the gratings of the drains.On the inner road at Millbrook by the hire shop, the road was flooded due to blocked drainage gratings and the mud and gravel washed down from the once tarmaced path off rue de Trachy, which leads up to Landscape Grove.Responsibility for this public path has been abandoned by the Parish of St. Helier and is now deeply scoured down to the bedrock, as all traces of the tarmac binding it, has gone.The result is that all this shale, clay and gravel block the storm culverts at the entrance of Millbrook Close and wahes down onto the main road.You would think that there might have been some public spirit from nearby householders.Not a bit of it!I was alone in unblocking all the gratings as usual.By that time the main road was flooded and some idiots in their cars were still travelling at speed and then whoosh into the flooded road just around the bend.It’s a miracle that no one was killed or seriously injured.It seems that somehow people now expect that public services, in an island wide flash flood situation, will simply appear. Next time, how about a few responsible citizens donning a mac and some wellington boots and get out there and help clear the drains. In the meantime,if there are any public officials of St.Helier reading this, when will you sort out the problem of the path up to Landscape Grove?
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I remember the oyster farmers finding out that the sewage system failed at times of high rainfall
http://www.thisisjersey.com/2009/07/09/raw-sewage-went-in-sea-panel-told
and the response being ‘You have to expect it!’
SPIN SPIN SPIN and SPIN again!
Led (lead!) by donkeys!
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Typical, for those moaning about the floods in town.
Do you know how many times the cavern has saved the town from floods? No because it is a non event and goes unnoticed.
From my experience, that is the first time part of the town got flooded since the cavern was built. That amount of rain in such a short period was extreme and when I left work later that afternoon the street was clear of flooded water. So, congratulations to the firemen and shopkeepers for the sterling effort.
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some people seem to be missing the point that the water has to get to the water has to get to the cavern first! I would love to hear from the bright spark who can plan for 40mm of rain being poured on our heads inside 3 hours.
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Josh Holmes – you are spot on. Peopel dont’ want to pay higher taxes, so we have to put up with the deluge liek this once in every ten years. To invest to cope with the amount of rain is a wasted investment. Those shops have insurance to cover for damage and loss of earnings. So get over it all those whinging!
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Here is the news: “The drains failed to cope”
Yes, thanks JEP, that much was fairly obvious from the fact that there was knee-deep water all around town
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Whats all the fuss? so a couple of shops get abit of water in them and there were a few puddles ankle deep. Thats not flooding….Look at Pakistan, now that is flooding with major loss of life too and hey alittle bit of rain fell here in good old Jersey making major headlines, and the fatilities here… a carpet in a new pub…come on end your silly little comments here!
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It seems to be the same every time there is some extreme weather – be it rain, snow or high winds.
Trying to prevent damage caused by the natural world is probably going to be a losing battle – as people have said these events occur so rarely that it doesn’t justify the costs.
Can you imagine if someone said “ok, we need £amount to build a flood / wind / snow / heat / cold proof bridge” or something, everyone would want to know why so much money is being “wasted” protecting against such rarely occuring phenomenon.
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My understanding of the design and construction of the Cavern is that its main purpose was to prevent sewage stormwater discharges to sea at times of heavy rainfall. This used to occur about 100 times a year.
Many parts of town are on a combined sewage system, which means that the road drains are linked to the foul water system. This is a hangover from the construction of the old drainage network in the Victorian era, prior to sewage treatment technology. Most urban areas face similar difficulties and they too now have stormwater retention tanks (as they are called) in order to comply with legislation on discharges to the sea. Indeed cities like London and New York have dozens around the city. The stormwater is stored and then passed into the sewage treatment works when it can take the flow.
The real challenge is to progress surface water separation schemes to take the “clean” rainwater off the sewage network and pass it straight to outfalls onto the beach. This also allows for some re-engineering to increase the capacity of the drainage system.
I am not an employee of TTS but I do know from what I have read in previous years of the States Business Plans, published every year, is that they have had a rolling capital programme of surface water separation for 20 or more years.
I believe a reduction in flooding events in town was a secondary “bonus” to its primary purpose of preventing foul discharges to sea.
As I said, I do not work for TTS nor am I an engineer, but I just want to put some parts of the record straight.
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Victor Meldrew # 16. I don’t think it is the role of the public to clear drains, it is the job of the Transport and Technical Services Department to ensure that drains and gullies are free from detritus and other debris.
It is also the role of the Transport and Technical Serivces to ensure that the likelihood of a recurrence is reduced by planning to cope with future heavy down falls….with climate change its going to happen. There needs to be a schedule of the regular inspection and clearance of the drainange system. Whinging; you are damned right I am whinging.
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If T&TS had any media savvy they would issue a press release every time the cavern proved its worth and prevented a flood situation. The public would soon get tired of reading about each success and would accept the scheme was worthwhile.
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I seem to remember that the cevern project was never completed as there was supposed to be a large shaft at the Wests Centre. However, the local traders kicked up such a fuss about the disruption this would cause that it was never built. Nuff said!!!
Blue Knight – if you don’t invest in infrastructure then this is the result. No money available for Public Services to finish the job but plenty of money to waste on a pond for the Lieutenant Governor!!
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I might add that the Millbrook watercourse down to the outfall was flooded with raw seweage from blown manholes on a low lying spur from the Victoria Avenue sewer.Sadly this is not a one in ten year event, but is a regular yearly event, though usually a month later.
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@Victor Meldrew
The lane off Rue de Trachy is a private lane, Chemin de Beaugerie, that has no traceable owner. Obviously the parish don’t want to take it over because it’s in such a poor state and would cost a lot of money to put right.
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13 Pip Clement
Totally agree! People have thoughtlessly paved over their front gardens and built extensions on the rear of their properties without any regard as to where the extra rain water will go. Add up all the small extra roof and tarmaced areas and voila – one flood!! Of course the question has to be asked as to who is passing all the planning applications without determining the proper drainage for these schemes.
25 Blue Knight
I’m not sure how many tens of thousands of gratings there are in the roads but it must be extremely difficult to clean all of them on a regular basis. Plastic litter could block one grating within minutes of it being cleaned. Self help, by keeping an eye on the grating outside your house/shop, might save an insurance claim. I believe that it’s TTS’s job to only clean the main road gratings and up to the individual parish to look after its own.
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Norman # 30. In the U.K. they have highways superintendents, or roads inspectors who regulalrly check that drains and gullies aren’t blocked. Surely there must be a similar system in Jersey – if not why not?
I agree with your views on paved over or tarmaced gardens – why hasn’t Planning stepped in to ensure that drainage hasn’t been impared by householders altering the land?
There are those who have accused me of scaremongering, however questions need to be asked and we need to look at how we can alleviate these problems in future. We shouldn’t just accept the word of the authorities that everything is working according to plan.
As for the comments on insurance – the problem is, people who own the properties that are prone to flooding will find it harder to insure their premises and it will be more difficult to sell these buildings.
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Alright, so there was a little bit of water in town. I get that it ruined thousands of pounds of stock for many, many businesses. And I also understand that Jersey’s drains did the best they could to cope, but ultimately, they couldn’t. I’m also aware that this cavern was never finished, but this kind of event is slightly out of the ordinary, and like someone mentioned earlier, I don’t expect the States to spend even more money on making the drainage system bigger. Because, like someone else previously suggested, they’re damned if they do anything, damned if they don’t. Now I, along with everyone else on this island am well aware that the States are pretty shit at handling money, but I’ll also hold my hands up and say that I’m not sure I could improve on their current achievements. Either way, this whole thing is over, businesses will eventually make up for the damage, the world goes on. Please, to the ones who moan for the sake of moaning, I’m speaking to you, Blue Knight, quit the bitching, and get back to work. Good day.
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Chloe # 32. Good day to you….I am not moaning for the sake of moaning; I am just writing a critique on the poor deal you are getting from your public services. If everyone just sits there and accepts that everything is hunky-dory, things may not progress or will even get worse. Unlike others, I am not prepared to fiddle whilst Rome burns.
Instead of investing in grandiose schemes, the States would have done better to have spent the money on the island’s infrastructure, including an efficient drainage system – taking into account the likely effects of global warming, which are likely to get worse.
P.S. I don’t have to work – I am a pensioner.
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is west centre not privately owned and never connected to the cavern thought it was a waste of money, no drain would cope with that much unforeseen amount of rain and did it not all disappear within a few hours
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Debating rain?! Umm ok, it’s wet and there was lots of it in August, now get a hobby….
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Well said Chloe.
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Blue Knight # 31
TTS have specially built trucks and on a regular basis clean all road drain gullies (the equivalent to the “U” bend on a sink), depending on their history of blocking some more frequently than others (its called targeting, ring any bells?). Parish and TTS road sweepers clean the roads and gutters again on a regular, targeted basis. Some areas where the large sweepers can’t get to (permanent street parking etc) it’s done by hand. But when a deluge as bad as the one we experienced last week happens (Silly me you weren’t here were you, you don’t know how bad and unusual it was) all sorts of debris that has accumulated throughout the summer (we have had a very good, exceptionally dry summer up until August) in “private”, and public nooks and crannies is washed “ahead” of the flooding waters blocking drain covers that are necessarily small to stop the claim brigade tripping on them and to stop the drain being blocked in more inaccessible places.
Why shouldn’t people protect their properties by unblocking public drains, no amount of “Drains inspectors” would have been able to cope during this recent event (even if their crystal balls weren’t in the menders), these grids go from clear to blocked in seconds.
It’s no good to man or beast sitting on a soggy sofa complaining somebody else should have done that and spouting the excuse “I wouldn’t want to do a job that I am not qualified to do”. I would have thought most would have had enough common sense to poke it with a stick, unblocking a drain grid is not exactly rocket science.
Here we are in the middle of a recession and all you can do is, from a distance (do you pay any Jersey tax?), tell us to spend more money.
It would be like putting a police officer in every bar 24/7 because one person had once been sold too much alcohol and went out and battered someone. We don’t want it to happen, but let’s not overreact here.
I bet those that had flooded houses due to blocked drains this time, are out there next time poking the grids with a stick, qualified or not, just like Victor Meldrew.
Perhaps after your suggestion we should follow the UK example (see Blue Knight #31), one never hears of floods over there does one?
I would advocate a public awareness program of what blocked grids can do and how to poke them with a stick would be of much more value in both places than your leave it to someone else method.
Octavian #24
Precisely, thank you.
Most people think the cavern is primarily to stop flooding. You are correct; lessening the occurrence of flooding was only a welcome by-product of stopping the draining surface water from flooding over into the foul system during heavy rain and exceptionally high tides.
Victor Meldrew #16
A “well done” is deserved for your public spiritedness; you probably stopped it from flooding more homes.
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The worst was the drivers that did not slow down which created a higher wash and also their passengers that took photo’s and thought it was all very funny to see how high the wash would go.
Does any one know where the cavern ends? as could it have been extended past shops so when the drains popped would not be near the shops just a thought??
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PJG # 37. Well done, “game, set and match”; quod erat demonstrandum.
Thank you for the lesson on how drains and gullies are cleaned – most informative.
To answer your query; yes I still pay Jersey income tax, hence my interest in the island’s welfare.
Where I live it rains incessantly, but so far I haven’t experienced any flooding. This is probably because the Technical Services Department in the local authority have prepared for such heavy downpours.
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#31 Blue Knight, I don’t disagree with the sentiment of what you say, and you’re certainly right (as is Pip) about considering future flooding. But I do think TTS did alright on this one, it was ‘exceptional’ and the UK wouldn’t have coped any better given an equivalent situation.
Well done Victor Meldrew.
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What’s the betting there will be a hosepipe ban…..or our water bills will now increase!!
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“The worst was the drivers that did not slow down which created a higher wash and also their passengers that took photo’s and thought it was all very funny to see how high the wash would go.”
There were several accidents over that week starting from the heavy rain on the previous Sunday afternoon and running through the heavy rain on the Thursday.
I was driving on the roads for part of those days and at times there were places were the water was so deep that it would was impossible for tyres to achieve a reasonable grip.
Add in the loose gravel, sand and mud on the road as well and things were very slippery.
On Thursday there were idiots doing fifty plus in their Landys up La Grande Route de St Jean on a road that looked like a canal!
Where were the Jersey flics then?
Flooded in at the Kremlin
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#41 I can’t believe we haven’t had one already. How on earth has the island managed with such a long reign of sunshine?
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#29 Norman
You say that the “the lane off Rue de Trachy is a private lane, Chemin de Beaugerie, that has no traceable owner. Obviously the parish don’t want to take it over because it’s in such a poor state and would cost a lot of money to put right”.
Yes, the Parish of St Helier have claimed that,no doubt to avoid expense,as you helpfully point out, but what private owner would have tarmaced it in the first place, as traces of this exist? The shale and mud blocking the drains from this rapidly eroding path is a serious problem, accounting for most of the flooding in this area. The cost of unblocking the drains, choked with gravel and rock every time we get heavy rainfall, must be substantial as well as the danger to road users. I also remember that a year or two ago, Telecom engineers had to clear an inspection pit, which was full to the brim with mud and gravel as a direct result of the effect of this ongoing problem.The solution is simple.In the absence of any traceable owner, the Parish must step in and adopt it, although I believe it was always a public path.
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#37 PJC and #40 Leah Holmes
Well said and thank you both for your comments. Thank goodness that there are some people like you, whom support a certain public responsibility and don’t depend on someone else, when faced with a severe flood, which can be allayed by twiddling a stick in the gratings.
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I lived in Jersey for many years and only left on retiring from the police some years ago.
Didn’t the Cheif (sic) Officer of Transport & Technical Services foresee the potential for this problem? There’s an old military maxim, “Failing to plan, is palnning (sic) to fail” Or, “Proper palnning (sic) prevents pathetic performance.” But then this is par for the course for our highly paid civil servants. Not that it has anything to do with me because I don’t live in Jersey.
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Major Forsett-Smythe # 46. Are you taking the ‘wee wee’? I have conceded I am a whinging old git and learned my lesson. Everything is rosy in the garden at TTS and the drainage system is brilliant.
Thank you for being (sic) over my typographical error – big finger syndrome.
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Major Forsett-Smythe #46
As an ex police officer you are obviously used to dealing with rubbish that is blocking the road.
Only difference here is 90% of it won’t move on after a verbal warning, It ALL has to be poked with a stick.
Are you saying every time an offence is committed there has been?
“Failing to plan, is planning (sic) to fail” Or, “Proper planning (sic) prevents pathetic performance.”
You sound like you spent more time at a desk than dealing with reality
Blue Knight
1960s
Do you remember George Ruellan, now there was a good old fashioned copper, bet he would have poked it with a stick instead of radioing control for a 10/12
He clipped me around the ear once for taking a mate on the crossbar of my bike. I never did it again though, he was a big bugger.
But then some might say that violence has affected me in other ways?
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PJG # 48. P.c. Ruellan wouldn’t have been the only officer of the law to have given youngsters a good clip around the ear – as you are aware it was common practice.
A lot of my colleagues back then were ex-Armed Forces and more than capable of looking after themselves. The Corporals, Sergeants and Inspectors were true disciplinarians and treated like Gods. I am told it isn’t like that anymore….and you are no longer able to call disorderly members of the public ‘rubbish’ – they are all customers. Consider yourself rebuked for being politically incorrect. (Now if I get any more (sic)s, it is due to failing eyesight and fat fingers.)
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PJG- I believe that a joke might have escaped your notice
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Blue Knight, #33
Your comments are accepted, as is the rest of everyone else’s I just feel from looking at a lot of your other posts that you don’t have any good words for the States. Granted, I myself might be hard pushed to find any. I believe in the phrase, ‘Credit where credit is due’, and I’ll happily say the TTS along with the Emergency services who attended all those car crashes that day, did such a good job. No one could have seen this coming, and I don’t ever expect them to. (without warning from the met office.. if they can even do that..)
Also, in reference to your mentioning about the state of the politics in the island, you say if people don’t do something, it may get worse? Well, to be fair, I’m pretty sure most people on this island are of the opinion that the States, a lot of the time, really DO NOT give a shit about what we have to say about them, or what we want improved, yada yada yada. Most, are just interested in their paycheck. Already, many of us have learnt that sometimes, it does not matter how much you whine about something to the States, it probably won’t get done. And I’m by no means saying we have to sit back and take that, because I know I definately won’t, but right now, they’re too worried about this big deficit, to give a shit about what we have to say. A couple million is a little hard to just spend recklessly. Did you see the amount of money they spent paying and putting up the investigators from England for the historical abuse inquiry? Like I said, the only thing they’re interested in right now, is money. As ever. Anyone surprised?
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I have just phoned relatives in the island and I was told that they had heard that when Fire & Rescue Service attended the flooded area in town, they found that the drains were blocked and this was a contributory factor for the flooding. Evidently once the Fire Service flushed out the drains, the water just flowed away – PJG, Major Forsett-Smythe et al, please discuss.
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Wasn’t the tide out during the flooding? Therfore the cavern has nothing to do with it as it was designed to take water during high tide. Stop jumping on the band waggon. just accept as an act of god, just like the insurance companies will do!
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Blue Knight#52
Stop wriggling, reread my 37. Surface debris had blocked the grid (probably from seagull destroyed plastic sacks that somebody left outside their premises?). The FB poked it with one of their very special very expensive FB sticks (you know how these boys love to get their toys out)It would have been cheaper and probably faster to have called Victor Meldrew.
Gus Gorilla#50
Possibly? Please check my spelling of “palnning”#58, who is Major Forsett-Smythe? I have my suspicions.
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Chloe # 51. Don’t let me get on my soap box over the Historical Child Abuse Investigation. Maybe the island should recoup its money with deductions from certain individuals’ pensions…..it’s needed to pay for the damage caused by the floods and the possible compensation claims from businesses and householders. Only kidding
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Very funny
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what about the new building along the esplande and other places in town which have NO drains in there underground carparks! whos fault is that –planning why are these buildings allowed without proper drainage
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