Car dealer calls for MOT to get ‘death traps’ off road
Thursday 2nd September 2010, 2:56PM BST.
Miles Jude of Derek Warwick Honda. Picture: JON GUEGAN (01040228)
INTRODUCING a Jersey MOT would improve safety on the roads, get rid of polluting cars and raise money for the States, according to the head of Derek Warwick Honda.
Dealer principal Miles Jude says that instead of the Vehicle Emissions Duty that will be charged on newly registered cars from the start of this month, the States should consider setting up checks on vehicles on the roads.
He says that Derek Warwick Honda scrap a couple of vehicles from the 30 or so that they take in part-exchange for new cars every month – and that some of them are ‘completely unfit’ to be used on the road.
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You mean more poeple would buy new cars and your profits would go up. plus the charges for MOT are expensive so your profits would go up.
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Only a car dealer could come up with this, but he is probably correct.
But, please, please, please, no over-engineered, bureaucratised Jersey solution!!!
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And then they could sell more cars!
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Brilliant well overdue should have been implemented ages ago. Obviously would create more revenue for the trade, improve safety help the states coffers the only problem is it will cost money and a lot of people in this climate are not even having their car serviced at the moment as money is tight what would be the cost????
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No vested interest here, of course.
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far , far less rubbish on the roads, compared to a few years ago, a sales ploy to get rid of the sea of over priced forecourt fodder.
will it improve road saftey, doubtfull, people will still crash at the smallest drop of rain.
the good old parish road check has served well for years.
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Maybe the reason the cars were traded in was becuase the owners recognised the cars were no longer road worthy hence them buying a new one?? How many road accidents have been caused by un roadworthy cars in the last 3 years? I beleive most fatalities in Jersey are from reckless/irresponsible driving rather then mechanical problems. Would Honda be looking at offering an MOT service,I’m sure they would!
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We already have it, its called the DVS! in the UK you have to take your car to get it’s MOT, Here they come to us in the form of road checks.
These have dropped in recent years for some reason.
I agree we need some form of control regarding old cars on the road but the last thing we need is a car dealer saying this! Also i think the motorist is taxed enough as it is, without having to fork out more money for this so called global warming! sorry to state this but the truth is global temparatures have been dropping since 2003! This is why we see snow again in winter and we only ever get 1 or 2 days a year where the temaprature is over 24 degrees! Global warming, someone please explain to me where?
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couldnt agree more. would help the environment and reduce accidents
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Car driver (5) How many road accidents have been caused by un roadworthy cars in the last 3 years?
Totally agree! The priority for the bureaucratised machine of government should be a MOT on car drivers. Far more horrors behind the wheel, than the set of wheels they drive.
My current pet hates are: (1) Drivers who assume all oncoming traffic will defer to them, even if when that is contrary to the highway code! (2) Old dears (male and female) who are overwhelmed by the simplest manoeuvres! (3) Prim drivers who get into a tizzy with their oversized 4×4′s.
If we want to improve road saft get these drivers off the road before we introduse an MOT.
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Too quiet in Derek Warwick Honda ? Let me guess, would they like to be an approved MOT station ? The only way an MOT should be introduced is if the MOT station did ONLY inspections and were NOT part of any other concern.Totally independant.
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Long overdue but don’t give it to any existing dealers – sorry Derek.
Make it a government owned body, use the profits to provide a more extensive bus service, which should mean less need for cars on this small island.
And vastly increase the tax on 4x4s to get the “keeping up with the Jones’” vehicles off our roads.
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This has to qualify as the Numptie of the month story,,,,Jersey has more top of the range metal on the road than just about anywhere on the planet,This is a calculated ploy to extract even more money from the motorist by manipulating the law by introducing make believe fear,an old tack.”Death traps” Please ..give us a break.and I flatly disbelieve the claim that 2 trade in a month at the Honda garage are wrecks.a statement made without supporting evidence…we do not need this, why have we no headlines claiming defective vehicles are causing mass maiming on our roads,,simply because it is not happening.But then car salesmen are known for their truthful utterances Eh..? I hope the powers that be reject this unnescessary and expensive scam.
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Sorry Jude If they bring this in you won,t be getting a penny of my money and neither will the jacksons group
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Jersey definately needs MOT’s, I bought an absolute wreck when I lived there….it cost me 50 quid and was held together with rust and moss. There was no need to spend any more because I knew I wouldn’t need it for long. I sold it on at a profit for 200 quid when I left.
It was completely unsafe, brakes were knackered had no handbrake (I kept a brick in the car to put under the wheel when parked) tyres were literally racing slicks with the lack of tread.
Now I’m back in the UK I wouldn’t dare drive it round the garden it was that bad!
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Can a visual road check spot a mechanical defect in a car that on the surface looks road worthy. ??
Over 10 years ago some teenagers were killed in a RTA. a fire officer who attended told me years later the car would not have passed a UK MOT and should not have been on the road. Some of the DIY alterations
to the dash of the car caused greater injury.
How many deaths over what period, does it take.
These were Somebodies children not statistics.
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Being a Jerseyman I’m not all that up on how the MOT system works, but unless I’m missing something I fail to see how exactly this is supposed to raise cash for anyone but the garages!
No doubt a garage would have to pay some sort of licence fee to the States to become an “approved” MOT station, but that’s bound to be offset by the costs of administering the system, which would no doubt involve one or more overpaid civil servants and an expensive IT system which will never work properly…
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nuova vista, (10) spot on .
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Jersey has seen a number of very bad accidents this year, it would be interesting to see if the condition of the cars have had anything to do with the crashes, especially the last few years with people having less money, lost jobs- less money to spend on repairing and maintaining cars, what price do you put on safety
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MOT has got my vote i think we need one if u look around at the state of the cars on the road most of them would be scraped some have no lights some have bald tyers no wonder there is so many accidents when its wet they just cant stop
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There are many unroadworthy cars driving around, agreed there are many over large, extremely expensive ones as well (although you have to go to Monaco to see real money on wheels, all stuck in traffic jams).
What amazes me is that more people are not killed, we hear cars roaring around the roads at very high speeds at night, not a policeman in sight.
Perhaps we need speed cameras, could raise some income for our glorious leaders’ spend, spend, spend agenda.
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Jersey would only screw this up, but what this guy is saying is correct the number of bangers that should have been scrapped along time ago are still on the roads and shouldn’t be.
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@15 John Bolton
So, you knowingly bought a car, for a ridiculously low price, that was a potential death trap for not only yourself but other road users and pedestrians.
Just because you knew that your ownership of the vehicle wouldn’t be long is analogous to the drunk driver who says that he only lives round the corner from his local pub…
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#13. Truth seeker, you disappoint me. This is not one of your better posts, except perhaps the bit about car salesmen but I would believe the story about the traded in wrecks. The ‘real T. S.’ will have you over a barrel this time. Except, of course, he will udoubtedly drive ‘top of the range metal’ and change it frequently!
The ‘top of the range metal’, as well as the humbler ones, would be excluded from the test until a few years old even though tyre, brake, lighting and wiper faults (to list a few) could become serious in this time.
There are still plenty of potential death traps on Jersey roads. I defy any of you, including the authorities, to prove that only having these much vaunted roadside checks can possibly be as thorough as a 40 minute or so, up on the lift,rolling road etc. examination. I’ve read it all before and it doesn’t stand up in reality.
Many vehicles may never ever get stopped in a roadside check. A compulsory annual check would make their continued use illegal if not passed.
The most serious aspect of this is that, at present, Jersey death traps are allowed to circulate on the mainland and the continent amongst vehicles which do have to comply.
To quote the book of useful emotive phrases: “Will a child have to die before something is done about this?”
I fully agree that test stations should be indepedent. Ideally, run by the DVS at break even cost. There are too many examples in the UK, particularly among main dealers with captive regular customers, of practices such as telling customers that they will need new brake discs because the edges are rusty.
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There is the obvious self-serving here, but it is a definite point. Clearly TRUTHSEEKER at 13 doesn’t know what she is talkign about. If there are such premium cars on the road, then an MOT isn’t going to result in extra sales to Honda now is it? Talk aout leading with your chin!!!
Safewty is paramount, and by having a ‘reasonable’ fee attached with the MOT, then we end up with a user pays prinicple of revenue raising, safer vehicles on the road. Win Win!
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21. “Perhaps we need speed cameras, could raise some income for our glorious leaders’ spend, spend, spend agenda.”
We agree. We should clamour to change the log that we have as a king for a stork.
(signed) The fish in the pond.
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John Bolton are you quite all there…you expected to by a road worthy fit for purpose motor vehicle for £50 ! ! ! …may I suggest a lie down in a darkened room for a while.
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I’m not sure an MOT would help Warwicks, unless the Jersey consumer is a complete idiot. I recently test drove a 4 year old Jazz from Warwicks, they wanted £9,000 for it, I bought a new Fiesta for the same amount of money. Had I wanted the Jazz the same car was available for £4,000 from Autoquake.
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This is not about safety but cash. I am suprised at Dereck allowing his name to be associated with this.
The UK MOT is not a role model for safety as there is no consistancy between inspection garages. They also have a vested interest in failing cars to boost their own profits.
The system on the island works fine and perhaps an emmission inspection when a car approaches ten or more years old bi-annually would be more appropriate.
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I think this is a brilliant idea – and to all those commenting that there are not that many “death traps” on the roads an MOT would also help to pick up all those vehicles with only one or no working brake lights, misaligned headlights etc which I see plenty of every day, and many of these are newish cars. Checking your lights is not a difficult task and should be on any drivers list of routine checks, however it seems to be beyond the ability of a large portion of this islands (and to be fair, many other places) population.
As a driver of an “old banger” I still keep the car roadworthy as it is my life at risk if something (e.g. brakes!) fail so have no issue with implementing a similar system to the UK.
Unfortunately an MOT won’t stop people putting cheap tyres on their cars – which I personally believe are at least partially responsible for some accidents as I see a lot of cars struggling with grip when there is a tiny bit of rain. A sure sign that the driver has put some cheap ditch-finders on rather than slightly more expensive, but much more effective tyres.
To #8 – I think the spot checks should continue as an MOT only gives you evidence of a car being roadworthy on the day it was tested. In the 12 months inbetween a car may become unroadworthy through tyre wear or any number of faults so spot checks will still have value. Plus, of course there will be those still willing to drive a car without a valid test certificate.
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As the owner of an older car who takes the trouble to look after it and makes sure it is roadworthy, it is frustrating to see how many newish cars have defective lights / broken rear view mirrors etc etc, and an annual MOT would raise standards.
With cars no longer gerally rusting to death, I don’t think the situation is nearly as bad as it was 30 years ago. The problem for the motor trade is modern cars are so well made, they last a lot longer, and they are looking to legislation to drum up business, one example being that in Dubai, cars over 15 years old are taken off of the road.
I do question a couple of points that Mr Jude has made. He makes reference to cars having defective gear boxes, this would not be a UK MOT failure point. Also the recent scrappage scheme in the UK resulted in many well heeled owners buying new cars and scrapping perfectly good ones, while the less well off continued driving their older cars.
Finally, many dealers have been offeirng minimum £2,000 P/X offers, so I am not suprised that people have been producing unroadworthy ‘clunkers’ to trade in.
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Wonderful idea, for the garage trafde and of course the States coffers ! £55 for the M.O.T and thats just an average price, the States would get a fee for each certificate, the garages would have to pay for the M.O.T testers to be trained, refit the workshops, install computerised equiptment on top of all this in order to overcharge customers for remedial work on failed vehicles. Every vehicle over 3 years old would require a M.O.T, Taxis, buses, all commercial vehicles would be subject to a test including States vehicles at a specialised Heavy goods testing station which would cost several thousands of pounds to set up.I think the fit for purpose and roadworthiness ideal that has served Jersey well for many years and in my experience is far better than the current UK testing criteria. An M.O.T test in the U.K only means that the vehiclce was safe and roadworthy on the date it was actually tested, if for instance a wheelor steering became damaged due to ‘curbing’ the M.O.T would automatically be void.
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As a frequent campaigner against excessive bureaucracy, maddening health and safety regulations and over zealous officials in the UK I am an ardent supporter of the UK’s MOT tests for vehicles over three years old.
‘The Test’ without doubt contributes to road safety. By Testing cars’ safety systems (brakes, lights, steering, suspension, horn, tyres, bodywork and windscreens) as well as emissions, road safety for all road users is optimised.
In the 50 years that the test has been compulsory it has without doubt saved lives and serious injury on the increasingly over crowed road in the UK. An additional advantage provided for the test is the incentive of owners of vehicles to keep them in good order and safe in-between the tests in order to avoid expensive last moment repairs.
Provided that the compulsory annual test is not prohibitively expensive a Jersey version of the UK MOT would, without doubt, be in the public interest.
I for one hope that the States adopt the proven safety inspection of the ‘MOT’; it has been in place in the UK, all be with additions, since July 1960.
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And when was the last accident relating to a defective vehicle?
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I agree completely with C Le Verdic, a good post that hits the spot.
There are too many vehicles running on Jersey that are DIY serviced by idiots who don’t even have the basic apprentice knowledge that their brake pipes are made of ferrous metal and that could they be rusted through a year after driving through sea water sloshing over Victoria Avenue. Sudden loss of brake fluid is probably one of the most seriose of possible vehicle faults.
An MOT requires an under body inspection which includes checking these pipes, something that is impossible at a Parish road check.
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GMR at 34: Defects may not always be a cause, but they DEFINITELY contribute to the extent of damage, both to the vehicle and the person of an otherwise minor accident. Back on you’re pushbike GMR before commenting about something you clearly have no idea on!
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@15 John Bolton
Did I read right John, you sold a car to someone knowing full well it was not suitable for the road.
How the heck do you sleep at night??
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C Le Verdic at #13: It isn’t hard to have truthseeker over a barrel. The REAL TRUTHSEEKER is the one to listen to rather than the drivel from her mouth.
The fact is if you can’t afford to maintain and service your car, catch a bus!
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In the UK MOTs don’t kick in until a car is 3 years old, some people live their life without every having to arrange one. They used to cost £25 so weren’t particularly expensive unless a fault was found. However, it was preferable to have a friend who ran a garage to ensure you didn’t get ripped off. Either that or put your car in a good week before the updated MOT certificate is due so you have a week left to get quotes from other garages for any work needing done.
MOTs are a good idea, but I worry for anyone who isn’t good friends with a mechanic, you will get ripped off. Oh, and even if you are a female that knows about cars, still get a man to arrange it, unless you have the energy to have the same argument with some mechanic every single year.
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Heres my headline.
Ordinary folk call for price control to take rip off car dealers from trading to save us busting our butts to buy car salesman Rolex,s.
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34 gmr….spot on…I find it hard to believe Derek Warwick would allow one of his staff to make such claims…it really does not do The Honda garage any favours,,we have done fine without all this tosh for years and as you point out it really is not a problem…just vested interestd trying to crank up a multi thousand pound pain in the motorists *ss..we have a forty mile an hour speed limit for goodness sake we are not thundering up motorways in fact I reckon the average speed here with traffic would be about 27 miles per hour if that,also the smaller garages could not compete and the large ones would score..money for nothing…we do not need or want another unnescessary cost or layer of red tape thank you. Miles Jude… wake up and smell the coffee.
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To small money, Truth Bytes, roger mark wayne and anyone else who thinks that the roadside check is adequate.
How can a system which cannot possibly guarantee to stop every car which is over three years old at least once a year compare with a mandatory annual, thorough, inspection?
Even if cars are stopped there is no guarantee that they will be inspected, leave alone thoroughly?
I can also imagine the occasional instance of ” Ah that’s okay it’s Cyril, he wouldn’t drive a dud car, he bought it from Cl***l**d Garridges eh – wave him through, eh”.
Please get real, or are your views based on what best suits your own motoring convenience? In other words, you know as well as I do that your chances of getting pulled up for a thorough check are minimal.
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Excellent idea… all garages should do an MOT health check every 2 years..
The amount of unroad worthy cars I see as I drive along is awful, god help any one who gets knocked over by a car which has its bumper selotaped on!!
I think a max fee of £30.00 per MOT would be fine, of course if work needs doing then this will also have to be done and paid for to make to car safe…
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a vested interest by Derek Warrick garages.. of course. Just when local car sales are at a all time low. Statistic/fact…the two most detested professions by joe public are estate agents and second hand car salesmen
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one thing that strikes me as glaringly obvious – a compulsory MOT will require all cars be certified safe – parish road checks are merely a lottery.
so if we are serious about minimising the risk of death or injury due to unfit motors, then some form of MOT seems to be right.
perhaps it should be slimmed down to simply ‘lights steering tyres brakes’ and maybe only every other year. even better, expand the dvs so that at least you will get impartial verdicts, rather than getting kippered by our local dealers.
lets face it, most of us could kick a grand piano further than we trust those charlatans.
so whilst i dont believe than this is a monster problem (and with long intervals possible between rainfall, with loads of tree sap covering country roads, no tyre will be that effective if you dont drive in accordance witht the conditions), surely you would no sooner drive a faulty car than you would drive with no seat belt, or with a bottle of whisky in you, so it must really be common sense to implement it.
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Well he would, wouldn’t he?
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PJG at 35; a largely false and “scaremongering” post. Sudden brake fluid loss has, for some 30 years, not been the porblem that you allege. Why is that so? Dual circuit brakes. This system renders sudden failure impossible. The failure of one circuit is identified by a prominent warning light. Even if that warning light should fail, the failure of one circuit will be felt by the driver at the brake pedal.
As for the rusting of pipes and your argument that this possibility would justify an MOT test, it is unknown (speaking from years of experience within the trade) for a brake pipe to fail within one year, even in salty condition.
You have also overlooked the fact that a number of vehicles have copper brake pipes. More importantly, you have failed to consider that brake pipes exist in hidden areas and it is frequently the case that an MOT tester might not spot corrosion at such a site. Brake pipes also rust from within, due to the hydroscopic nature of brake fluid. The rubber connection hoses can also become porous and begin to leak from within. This is also something which can be impossible to discover from a visual inspection.
So to summarise, sudden loss of brake fluid is not a practical possibility so there is no cause for concern there and no justification within for the introduction of any MOT test.
Thank you. Trevor Hendrey (Motor trader and mot examiner, Doncaster)
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Le Verdic:
“I fully agree that test stations should be indepedent. Ideally, run by the DVS at break even cost. ”
A nice idea, but can you really see the DVS playing ball with regard to the costs? Their chrages now are ridiculously high; the public is cllearly ripped off way beyond any cost price so can you imagine what would happen if the DVS were to have any involvement in the MOT process?
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In some cases, I do think that introducing an MOT service in Jersey would be great, simply because I’ve never understood why we don’t have one. Secondly, it’d stop people selling us dodgy ass cars, particularly to the younger, more naive drivers.
But on the other hand, I would have to agree with truthseeker and Grateful Fool, in that there is a LOT of top of the range metal in Jersey, and I’m not sure I’ve ever heard of a crash over here where the vehicle was in a poor condition. Sure, we see the odd death trap barely able to drag itself a couple metres from time to time, but I’m just not sure there are enough ‘death traps’ on the road for the States to bring this in.
On another note, in all honesty, I suppose if they brought it in, they’d find enough vehicles with minor faults and such, but like someone else suggested, it should be a government operated service, so that dealers like DWH can’t take advantage should they fancy to.
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You would think Warwick was rich enough already.
Another scam to fleece the ordinary bloke.
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just take your banger to the uk get a trade in and get a new car at half the price easy
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‘we have a forty mile an hour speed limit for goodness sake we are not thundering up motorways…’
Until we take our cars which are not MoT’d out of the island!
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#44 ‘perhaps it should be slimmed down to simply ‘lights steering tyres brakes’ and maybe only every other year.’
No. If Jersey cars are going to be circulating in the UK or the continent then the test should be to the standard required in those places. Otherwise they should not be allowed to book on the ferry.
In a way it is surprising that the authorities at the other side don’t insist on certification before the vehicles are allowed out of the dockside area.
I don’t think that some of the above posters understand the gravity of this matter. There are some right bangers being driven around in Jersey. We still see substantial numbers of certain models that have been almost totally weeded out by strict testing elsewhere.
I am not writing this post in jest. And I don’t care if I hurt the feelings of the banger owners.
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As previously stated small garages could not afford to get all the kit needed for this farce…let us say ther are about 60k cars on the road.and a test is say £55 quid…£3,3 Million…!!! pounds raised.. for tha ske of spotting the odd car with a dodgy exhaust.or whatever…And guess how prudent based on track record our treasury would be with that…this is just another Govt scam…out of proportion to any possible justification ….and should be resisted robustly.as all they would do is Blow the dosh on yet more crap.
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I don’t know why people keep banging on about the UK. Apart from the fact that it has little to do with Jersey (you might as well talk about cars circulating in Italy or Portugal), it is hardly a paragon of virtue when it comes to motor vehicles.
There are many, many wrecks on the road over there, MOT notwithstanding. In fact, sometimes the MOT can make matters worse. “MOT” welding (which usually involves welding a patch over extensive corrosion in order to conceal it) and copious amounts of underseal ensures that many cars are “prepared” for an MOT when they would otherwise have been scrapped long ago.
Rather frighteningly, the problem is not confined to cars. A recent television program highlighted the large number of defective heavy goods which circulate on UK roads.
As another commentator has said, this garage (which has a conflict of interest in lobbying for MOT tests locally) would naturally have scrapped part exchange vehicles because it was offering a part exchange scrappage scheme. Oddly enough, one of the usual conditions of the scrappage scheme is that the vehicle to be scrapped has to be roadworthy (presumably to stop people digging wrecks out of the undergrowth and delivering them to the garage). As well as promoting pollution by encouraging customers to scrap usuable vehicles and thereby give rise to the pollution that the production of a new car creates (that pollution far exceeding any additional emissions which may or may not be caused by an older vehicle), it is also clear that the garage, by its own terms, should not have been accepting the unroadwaorthy vehicles that the gentleman in question claims without evidence to have scrapped.
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Read and digest.
Reference to MOTs, let’s refer to the JEP – dated Monday 23rd August 2010, page 20, INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS – ‘Garages missing dangerous faults’ (written in large print, approximately half an inch wide). This article goes on to say ‘Most garages are missing dangerous faults putting lives at risk, a consumer watchdog said today’. The article goes on for two small columns, explaining other faults in garages. So does that mean that all our garages in Jersey are squeaky clean?
Some time ago, my vehicle was involved in a road traffic accident, the vehicle then ended up in an accident repair garage. A couple of weeks down the line I went down to see my vehicle. Looking at it, I found new parts fitted, lovely shiny paint, and then I happened to look underneath my vehicle. To my astonishment, I noticed that parts were missing/ removed. The people that designed the vehicle put these parts on for a reason, so why were they missing/ removed? There were other issues as well.
So, if my vehicle was due to go to a mechanical garage, for an MOT, in this situation, what would be the outcome?
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BBC news article read as follows:
“Honda has announced the recall of 646,000 cars globally to fix a switch defect that could cause a fire.
The recall includes Jazz models, also known as Fit in some countries, built in Japan, China, Brazil, Thailand, Malaysia and India, Honda said.”
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truthseeker you do speak rubbish. Thankfully yoru vies on this matetr are so far off the mark. We want SAFE vehicles on the orad, not dangerous ones which you seemingly wish to have as a reuslt of your view. Thankfully you have no influence.
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#55 Tarquin you can hardly compare speaking about the UK to speaking about Italy or Portugal. Jersey does noticeably tend to follow some of their ideas, as well as having other very obvious links.
Yes, there are some very unroadworthy cars, and unfortunately there is an increasing problem among young men from immigrant populations of driving a banger without a driver’s license, insurance or MOT, and then just leaving the vehicle should they ever have an accident. There are also some shady characters that use ‘dodgy garages’ but I don’t think it’s just quite as bad as you make it sound.
The vast majority of people use reputable garages and do take vehicle safety seriously. There are far less ‘old bangers’ around than when I was little so your ‘MOT’ welding probably isn’t anywhere near as common as it may once have been. Even the council estates have fancy new cars.
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57…And your point is…….?
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1 question. Who on earth takes a car in part exchange only to scrap it for being “completely unfit” to drive?
I think you need to have a word with your sales people. Maybe then you wont have to suggest irritating schemes in an attempt to improve your revenue.
This is almost as good as last year that estate agent telling banks to give 100% mortgages to first time buyers.
Yes lets take the advice of the people who stand to gain from it. Because that seems wise!!!
Honestly sometimes reading the news in Jersey just makes me want to set myself on fire!
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Trevor Hendry
So why is checking brake pipes part of a UK MOT?
(speaking from years of experience within the trade).
I have also spent time in the trade. Ever worked on a car used by a fisherman who launches his boat from the beach. I have 1 year max before pipes need changing.
What about when the seals in the master cylinder become worn and one part of the dual system leaks into the other in effect turning a dual system into a single. Have you (speaking from years of experience within the trade) ever seen this? I Have.
Ever heard of Murphy’s Law. If it can go wrong it will. That’s why manufacturers advocate regular servicing.
And finally are you saying it’s ok for a vehicle to be used on the road with 2 of its 4 wheels not braking, please reread what I said, nowhere have I said single or dual braking systems. What I clearly said, and standby, is “Sudden loss of brake fluid is probably one of the most seriose of possible vehicle faults, or are you with your years of experience disagreeing with that?
Have you ever tried to stop a vehicle from speed with one part of the dual system not working?
I haven’t MOTs could stop this happening to others
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@ Jerseyboy. (61 above)
In answer to your question may I point out that in the past it has been part of Derek Warwick Honda sales techniques to offer a minimum £1000 part exchange on any vehicle, regardless of age, condition, or road worthiness. On several occasions they have exhibited on their forecourt examples of vehicles they have accepted which are obviously unusable, having been crash damaged, are old, and not worth repairing. Their own sales techniques are the reason they get so many unroadworthy vehicles in part exchange. I personally know of one person who gave £10 for an old banger specifically to hand it in and claim the part ex discount.
All DWHonda are doing is to prove that their (and other dealers) cars are so over priced as to enable them to drop £1000 off the price and still make a huge profit.
And of course, they’d soon get the £1000 back carrying out MOT’s on cars of those (and there are many) who just cannot afford a nice new motor.
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Why don’t those who think this is laudable just go and empty your bank accounts and throw big wadges of dosh in the royal square for the States to P**s up the wall for you…..Grrrrr
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@59 All of European Union states must now adhere to central MOT guidelines. If im not mistaken, all cars in places like Portugal and Italy must now also have a yearly MOT following the same guidelines that must be adhered to in the UK. I believe Tarquin has a point about when referring to the UK, there’s no difference to comparing them to other places in Europe, I’ve seen an equal amount of bangers wherever I’ve gone in Europe (apart from Germany
, because lets face it, people need to get about, and not everybody can afford a decent looking car that may be certified road worthy every year etc.
The reason why you find so many young immigrants driving old ‘bangers’ is because they know the chances of getting caught are minimal. In the UK it is exactly the same thing, there is no argument that it is a disregard to road safety, however it happens everywhere, immigrants and non-immigrants alike.
At one point in the UK when you bought insurance there was not a central database that was checked to ensure that your vehicle was already Taxed or had an MOT, i was aware of many instances at Uni where fellow students ‘risked’ not having at least one of the above because vehicle checks were few and far between. Normally, such indiscretions would only be found if you were caught in an accident.
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62 PJG “Have you ever tried to stop a vehicle from speed with one part of the dual system not working?
I haven’t”
There we are then. I have and the car stopped fine on one circuit. It stopped quite normally but the brake pedal felt spongy so it was clear that attention was required, which then ensued.
I also had total brake failure once (just after another garage had fitted new brake callipers, cylinders and pads and shoes). It happened when the brake fluid got sucked into the inlet manifold from the remote servo. Undetectable at an MOT test or indeed any inspection short of dismantling the servo. I made the car stop by pulling a small lever protuding from the transmission tunnel. It is called a handbrake. It is legally required to have a mechanical linkeage. That, as well as the dual circuit brakes which that old car didn’t have, means that total brake failure cannot now occur. I should stick to reading the Haynes manuals if I were you. If you’ve been in the trade, I’m a monkey’s second cousin (twice removed on the paternal side)
By the way; you can’t see inside a master cylinder by the underbody inspection which you are so keen on (is there something Freudian there?)
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LH at 59 “The vast majority of people use reputable garages and do take vehicle safety seriously. There are far less ‘old bangers’ around than when I was little so your ‘MOT’ welding probably isn’t anywhere near as common as it may once have been. Even the council estates have fancy new cars.”
Well, it’s not “your MOT welding” nor mine, nor anybody else’s, it just goes on. And you say that it “probably” isn’t as common as it “may” once have been! That sounds very informed (not). Nice to hear though that stereotypes regarding your council estates are alive and well. You might as well look at any country, not just the UK, by the way. Lots of old bangers on the roads in parts of rural Spain.
That siad, I certainly see an awful lot of “old nails” circulating on UK roads. If they don’t come from your council estates, I wonder where they all park at night?
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Truthseeker – I love it when I see you get riled. It makes my day. THis is about ensuring safety on the road – where do you get yoru figures of costs from? It is never going to cost £55, it is more like £25. If you can’t afford it, then you shouldn’t be driving.
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As my mate says the MOT in the uk is a farce as the vehicle only has to be legal for 1 hour a year and that is at the time of the test,,, how safe is that?????
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Thruth Seeker
Are you Bitter and twisted?? Much???
MOT saves lives…. FACT.
One crash due to defective vehicles is one too many.
I am a car salesman and I for one agree totally that the standard of some of these cars is nothing short of discraceful . Its not just the drivers who put themselves at risk, its all road-users and pedestrians alike.
The DVS should do the inspections, not the dealers. However if the DVS say a car needs four new tyres, then that is when a driver would have a week to put it right and then prove the tyres are changed. He / she could choose where to get the tyres fixed / replaced.
Vehicle upkeep should go without saying.
Safety is of paramount importance.
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Ha ha, vested interest, like an electrician saying all electrics should be checked every year, or a driving instructor saying all drivers should be re-tested each year, or a taxi driver saying they shouldn’t have a town bike scheme because it would mean inexperienced cyclists on the road.
Ok I made two of them up….
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Get all the old cars, give them to an artist/modern art chappie, and weld/build a lovely pile and display it in the centre of Town!
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PJG; I don’t think you really know what you are talking about
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Having read all the posts, the truth is not difficult, even for those that worship the rule book thrust at you by the man / women who’s wages you pay in order to think up more rubbish to put in the book so you can keep paying them. Should we not start thinking for ourselves.
Stand on any street and look at the high value and excellent condition of most of the traffic going by. Do the same thing in a town of roughly the same size in the UK and you would be surprised at the old and rough cars, most have MOTs’ given by garages who charge £55.00 plus vat.
Jersey does not need the MOT. To support another poster, the average speed attained in Jersey is well below the 40 mph all island speed limit, 30 in St. Helier by law even on the underpass, 20 mph in all the villages and by schools and 15 on the many green lanes. How slow do you want to go. How little stress on your metal steed.
Those that say that road checks cannot spot a deep mechanical fault are correct, but we are not stupid and cars are more reliable and safer than they have ever been.
My partner said that the steering was making a funny noise, yep steering power pump was on the way out, she is no mechanic, common sense will do.
Our Government has been so used to spending, it’s difficult for them to cut back.
This is just another device to take money from us. If they really want to stop a few doggy vehicles, and yes there are some, have a look around the building sites or impose stiffer fines for the small minority that are badly maintained.
Davey West.
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PA Cresta #66
(I used to have one of them too, bitch to drive round corners)
I have driven a vehicle that suffered complete brake failure. Ford Escort circa 1990 (not my vehicle it was a short term loan from a fisherman).
The dual master cylinder seals were leaking, a rusted brake pipe burst. First stab at the brakes caused some retardation second emptied the reservoir, then no brakes, parking brake efficiency (rear wheels only) was not enough to stop the vehicle before a wall did. As you say even a mechanic servicing a car cannot see inside the master cylinder, a fault such as this that renders the dual circuit inoperative can remain unnoticed for some time (the fluid does not leak out of the system. Hence my concern about rusted brake pipes, nothing Freudian, just experience.
You say “I made the car stop by pulling a small lever protruding from the transmission tunnel. It is called a handbrake”.
Actually it’s called the parking brake usualy operating rear wheels only and is completely unsuited to stop a car from speed. I admit better than nothing but the increased stopping distances when coupled with reaction times are horrendus, and can mean the difference between life and death. Only a complete fool would rely on this as a seriose alternative.
Dual circut braking is similar, It is designed to retain enough fluid that when a major leak occurs to retain braking on two of the wheels. If when this happened to you “It stopped quite normally but the brake pedal felt spongy” I can only assume you were travelling at a slow pace, or you did not have “complete” failure of one circut.
Some duel circuits are split front / rear some diagonal. On both systems braking efficiency and steering accuracy is greatly reduced brakes more than 50% and “all you felt was a spongy pedal”. I can only suggest you or one of your father’s cousin’s hairy children must have dropped a banana on the pedal.
A sudden loss of 50% or more braking efficiency could prove fatal, this can directly be brought about by the failure of a rusted brake pipe (forget the cylinder seals) and you imply a simple visual check on a regular basis not worthwhile.
I think the primate link to yourself is much closer than you admit.
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The only way to get the really dangerous deathtraps off the road is to stop the Connex Drivers from driving them.
I have had more close shaves, near misses, scratches and brown trouser moments with Connex buses thinking they own the road and that 40 mph is island wide.
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PA Cresta & PJG
Re: “Have you ever tried to stop a vehicle from speed with one part of the dual system not working?”
No, but I tried to start my car when its engine was sitting on the tarmac!
I was driving along a country road when I heard a loud noise that sounded like my car was taking off. The engine of my new car – fresh from its first service – had fallen out onto the road…I’ve never trusted mechanic since! ;(
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It’s not a parking brake, it is a handbrake. And it is supposed to act as a safety net in case of emergency. Indeed, in some countries, it is called an emergency brake. We don’t nee MOTs in Jersey and dealers who say we do are just after feathering their own nest
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My brakes failed after the garage ( now out of business) was supposed to have fixed them. Just because your car has been near a garage doesn’t mean that it is safe; the danger now lies with the lazy culture of people not knowing how their cars work (unlike our fathers). It would be better to educate the public on how to spot vehicle defects and how to do basic routine maintenance. Much better than giving in to this gentleman’s “conflict of interest” profiteering plea!
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I was driving along once and the bonnet flew up and hit the windscreen! The catch had not been fastened properly. Very dangerous because you couldn’t see where you were coming. An MOT wouldn’t pick that up.
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I am certain some of you are aware of my views on road safety in Jersey i.e. a 20mph Islandwide speed limit.
In terms of this mans suggestion of an MOT. Are you having a Giraffe springs to mind. How many accidents have been caused by ‘dodgy’ cars in the last 10 years? As far as I have seen most accidents happen with new cars. I wonder how many cars involved in accidents are Hondas?
This is yet another stealth tax designed to line Honda’s filthy little pockets. Shame on you Honda man. I’ll set my Jack Russell on you next time I see you!
Rose x
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70 Rusty if your sales spiel is as threadbare as your argument…your commision checques must be small…you want to sell cars,,you offer no evidence of mass road carnage due to faulty cars…Well Rodders the car sales buisness does not change much……….
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It really depends on how you drive.
If you are approaching a junction and you start to slow down in advance then you will not be going that fast when you reach the junction.
Is doing 40mph up as close to the line as you can and slinging on the anchors at the last moment sane behaviour?
If you start to slow down in advance, then even if the brakes fail completely then using the hand brake and changing down in to 1st gear will slow the car materially.
You might crash but it may not be a dangerous accident.
I could point out the bonkers behaviour of tracking the car in front as close as you can which now seems normal across the island.
I drive a fast car with excellent brakes.
If you are driving a Jersey van aka a peep carrier and you are ten yards off the back of my car and I have to stop in a hurry you will not stop in time. Your car will cannon off the back of mine at speed.
I will be fine, you and your passengers might have to visit the General Hospital!
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Mario#78
The parking brake operates on 2 wheels and is most definitely not designed as “a safety net in case of emergency”, this is an urban myth believed by the gullible. It can be misused as such (and is better than nothing, JUST) but no manufacturer will guarantee it to do anything other than hold a vehicle in a parked position on a specified slope.
Emergency brakes (rarely fitted to cars) are usually fitted to larger heavier vehicles and operate on all wheels by fully duplicated systems (Air, Hydraulic, or both).
Air operated brakes usually have a spring system that applies the brakes to all wheels automatically when the air operating pressure falls below a certain level. Most heavy goods runaways are caused by driver error, overuse of brakes/ lack of retarder use when going down hills causing friction material overheat.
But, let’s get back to the thread, MOTs.
Brake pipes rust, fact.
Weakened by rust brake pipes burst when they are most needed, when one is really pushing down hard to stop in an emergency, this is when the hydraulic pressure in these pipes is at its greatest. When they burst they lose “all” pressure and release the brakes no matter how hard one try’s to push the pedal through the floor.
On a single circuit system all you can do is pull on the parking brake ( if you have enough presence of mind, and time!) and hope that with the approximate 25% (probably less in a front wheel drive) braking rear wheels will stop you in time.
In a front/rear (the usual) dual circuit system (a misnomer really as they are usually a single system split into two.) with a front pipe burst you will have this same reduced efficiency retardation except you don’t have to pull up the parking brake, even if you do it will make no difference.
The cost of an MOT which will check not only brake lines but steering joints, suspension mounts, chassis condition (yes, even monocoque chassis rust) axle and hub condition, etc all of the bits one has to get underneath and dirty to inspect which at £55 compared to insurance is a pittance and is proactive instead of reactive (for “reactive” read compensating the family of someone you have killed though the criminal negligence of not properly maintaining a vehicle).Yes a vehicle can develop a fault as it leaves the testing station, but is that a reason to ignore regular checks or to have them more frequently?
A regularly serviced vehicle will have this done anyway, but a sad reflection on all of us is once a vehicle is out of its guarantee period (when servicing is compulsory to maintain the guarantee) regular servicing is usually forgotten about, and this is probably when it is most needed
MOTs are not perfect but they go further to protect the driver and anyone who can be harmed by a runaway vehicle that is out of control through mechanical failure (school kids at bus stops etc) than ignoring the fact a vehicle wears out with use.
Or would you prefer to remain ignorant to the fact you are driving a death trap?
And Davey west #74
You say
“Stand on any street and look at the high value and excellent condition of most of the traffic going by. Do the same thing in a town of roughly the same size in the UK and you would be surprised at the old and rough cars, most have MOTs’ given by garages who charge £55.00 plus vat.”
I suggest you Join the Honorary police and stand at one of their road checks and see the death traps that are on the road in Jersey. Some so bad they are lift towed from the check to the scrap yard.
I sincerely hope you or one of your family never has the misfortune to be standing between a car doing 20mph with only 2 wheels braking and a wall. Human bodies are much softer than granite and steel.
Until being a moron makes one ineligible to Own/drive a vehicle an MOT is a way of ensuring a vehicle is at least checked once a year.
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Landcrab #79
A bonnet is usually secured by 2 catches a main and a safety. I have come across a few that have, as you say, “flew up” completely obscuring ones vision.
In all the cases I have seen this was due to the bonnet not being properly shut on the 1st main catch and the 2nd safety catch being stiff due to lack of lubrication or rust. The bonnet then fly’s off the poorly shut main catch and is not secured by the safety.
During servicing or “MOT” the bonnet is raised, any reasonable mechanic/tester would notice this stiff safety catch, and probably lube it free of charge.
£55 cheaper than a new bonnet and windscreen or even the loss of no claims bonus
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Closet tips #73
I think your post is a classic example of Murphy’s Law in action!
Many thanks for your contribution as an example to my last sentance in 80
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MrHedgeHog 76.
Maybe you should learn to drive properly. A few driving lessons might help…take Mrs Hedgehog and Mr Roadhog with you…there’s nothing worse than bad drivers who blame everyone else!
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Mrs. Rosemary Bead 80
Dear Rose, I hope your little Jack Russell doesn’t end up under the wheels of a speeding vehicle like all you other pets!
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Rose – typical, if you don’t get your own way, resort to threats. I hope anyone you set your dog onto regardless of size, deals with the mutt appropriately.
The MOT’s are a good idea, and of course, involves a cost. User pays. Good idea all round.
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PJG @ 83.
You write,
I sincerely hope you or one of your family never has the misfortune to be standing between a car doing 20mph with only 2 wheels braking and a wall.
And you also write,
I suggest you Join the Honorary police and stand at one of their road checks and see the death traps that are on the road in Jersey. Some so bad they are lift towed from the check to the scrap yard.
Unquote.
One of these misfortunes standing between a wall and a car coming forward (or backwards) and getting crushed would not be good I agree. Please tell us how many times in the last fifty years this has occurred due to faulty brakes ?
You second point is even more interesting, as I have noticed less road checks for vehicles and more for drunk drivers,( better cars maybe ? ) again please give figures of the wrecks you mention ? and if so many, why are the checks not stepped up, not down?
My points are simple, Jersey cars are generally newer and in better condition. Look out your window when next you are driving, because of the amount of traffic we drive much slower than in the UK or continent plus, the slower speed limits imposed.
Some people relish more laws and restrictions they are a special club and you write as a likely candidate.
Here is one for you. October the 1st, knives will only be sold to qualified chefs. Why ? Because there is a possibility of kids hurting themselves when mum is not looking and of course you could get stabbed with one so its also a lethal weapon.
There is some truth, as kids get hurt and people get stabbed, but for goodness sake the numbers are so small, just get on with life, other wise, we may as well not have a life.
It is ridiculous to legislate a stupid nanny law, when the vast majority are capable and willing to maintain the cars to acceptable safety standards. Now if you are a Government with a structual deficit looming then any half baked idea to raise more for the treasury will do.
Last week buying a car just got a whole lot more expensive with the introduction of the new so called green taxes on cars. Maybe this is why Honda man despairs, less cars will be renewed annually, as the prices have just rocketed thanks to the Government?
Jersey did NOT need to tax more as car manufacturers are trying to build more efficient and better cars. Large prestige cars costs the owners considerable more to maintain, insure and fuel anyway.
Davey West.
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To HelenBack post 8, a bit late I know!
I think you need to look at global temperature changes over a lot longer period than 7 years in order to make your presumptions.
Here is a link to met that has a graph on it that may help you to understand that temparatures are rising on a long term basis
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climatechange/science/explained/explained5.html
7 years is a bit of a pointless timescale with which to base an assumption on.
….
To Rosemary Bead, I have read your rants on a 20 mile speed limit island wide and whilst I completely disagree with it I do find it strange that certain areas have them because they are built up areas for want of a better phrase. For example St Peters village is 20 miles an hour, if that is 20 miles per hour then why is not all of St Helier?
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Left to me I would implement a states subsididy so we can all have new cars. Whilst we are at it we can ban push bikes which are clearly dangerous and ridden by a lawless minority who ignore all the rules of the road and are oblivious to the safety of all arround them.
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The way some people drive is a disgrace over here but then those same people would probably drive in the same manner anywhere. Here are some examples of the idiot style driving I see on a day to day basis:
Overtaking cyclists on corners.
Not giving cyclists room or even worse expecting the person driving in the opposite direction to pull right up to the curb, because, hey they have room on ther side to squidge up a bit.
Overtaking parked cars, when another is coming in the opposite direction instead of waiting all of 5 seconds.
Same above for those bollards with a sign that says oncoming traffic has right of way, some drivers think that means floor it before the oncoming car gets there.
Instead of stopping/slowing down for a yellow line/give way point just keep on going and only stop when you as the driver are directly above the line. Sod the people who have to swerve to avoid your bonnet suddenly jutting out.
Don’t bother to indicate because it must be obvious if you have pulled to a stop you are about to turn right into another road.
Don’t check your rear mirror to see the traffic behind you before being “courteous” and letting someone out.
Being so desparate to get to the Bel Royal filter in turn before the person to the left or right of you, lets be honest that extra car in front makes all the difference when you get to the filter at Beaumont!
Driving with your mobile in hand.
Driving with your morning cup of tea or coffee in hand, imagine not being able to go without that morning cuppa for the sake of safety.
Letting your pets run around the vehicle instead of having them safely restrained in the rear behind a guard.
Smoking a cigarrette, which I think is just as bad as mobile phoning or drinking your cuppa whilst driving.
The list is endless and I am sure if anyone has read that they will be bored by now, as too am I writing it. I would just add one point, all of the above observations have been noted down in one mornings drive from town to the Airport. Sorry to be such a sad git!
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It is a handbrake (not a parking brake) It provides a secondary means of stopping the car should the brake system fail. In some countries, it is called an emergency brake.
That is why it is legally required to have mechanical likegae, independent of any hydraulic brake circuit.
Dual circuit brakes provide another extremely valuable safety net.
We do not need an MOT test in Jersey
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Thruthseeker
commision (commission)
checques (cheques)
Buisness (business)
Check your spelling before throwing insults. You make yourself look incredibly stupid.
Go back to that cynical world of yours. Only an idiot would deny that having a safety check like MOT wouldn’t improve road safety.
It’s like saying human health checks like smear tests and blood tests do not save lives. Of course they do – by identifying human conditions and the needs to cure them. Health checks also give you peace of mind. Imagine knowing that you 17 year old daughters car is safe and mechanically sound…… would that not put your mind at ease?? MOT can also be completed after a service at a garage, thus meaning the garages will have to pay extra attention to safety devices like brakes and tyre tread otherwise they can be identified as providing shabby workmanship.
MOT can check vehicle components and garage workmanship. It can only be a good thing.
By the way I did an appraisal on a £75,000 motor car last week that would have failed an MOT as all 4 tyres were completely bald. So your pathetic comment about bling motors in jersey also shows how unqualified you are to comment on this article.
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Cars have handbrakes as a back up. If brake pipes can go rusty within a year, then an annual MOT wouldn’t detect them because they would have rusted within the year. So the MOT would be futile, really.
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I’ve never heard that before, but it does make some sense as even Starter Set A does contain all the Pocket Meccano parts. However, the PM manual wasn’t included in the main outfits and there was no ‘connecting’ outfit so this was a bit pointless really.
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MOTs are used worldwide as a tool to make sure at least once a year vehicles are checked for basic roadworthiness.
One of the reasons for this is because some ignorant idiots believe they can use their car and only fix a fault when it renders the vehicle unusable (ei when they have had to stop their vehicles with half of their brakes not functioning)
A parking/hand brake (call it what you like) or a dual circuit braking system in its failsafe mode (working on 2 wheels) is NOT an “alternative” to a fully functioning on all 4 wheels braking system.
Better than nothing but both when being used as the only system available (due to burst pipe, perished flexi hose, pipe damaged, master cylinder failure, brake pedal snapping off, the list is endless) will take at least TWICE the distance to stop a vehicle compared to a fully functioning system. It only has to happen once to cause a fatality. To rely on these instead of good maintenance is moronic to say the least.
Davy West #90 you say
“My points are simple, Jersey cars are generally newer and in better condition”
I quite agree with you, they do look that way, but there are still too many life threatening wrecks on our island roads. If you want proof of road check to dump vehicles read the EP reports that are published on these checks. It is people like you who make assumptions how well maintained a vehicle is by how highly polished it is that make MOTs by trained professionals necessary.
People are dying all over the world due to unroadworthy vehicles, It’s a fact a queue of kids waiting at a bus stop in a town in the UK were mown down by a poorly maintained vehicle unable to stop when descending a hill, these fatalities happened in a town where there is only a 30mph limit.
Jersey may have lower speed limits than motorways but cars are still lethal at 15mph and Jersey probably has more hills than most places per square mile.
One only has to read some of the posts above to realise the cavalier attitude to roadworthiness in Jersey (you included) £55 per year would go a long way towards ensuring we keep our roads as safe as possible.
I feel it would be money well spent to keep me and my family safe on the roads.
If you think you and your families lives are not worth that much, I sincerely hope your good “LUCK” does not let you down.
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