Unfair stereotype of philosophy students
Thursday 2nd September 2010, 3:00PM BST.
From Benjamin Smart.
SENATOR Ben Shenton, in a proposal to cut funding to ‘soft subjects’ at university, writes the following:
‘In terms of Jersey students, the following soft subjects are popular – philosophy – various colleges.
Philosophy, like sociology and psychology, is one of those degrees that people do when they’re not quite sure what vocation they want to follow. It’s a fun-time four years, open to stoners, egocentrics and those that love the sound of their own voice, who will finish the course even more confused at what they want to do in life and probably end up working at a convenience store.’
It is saddening to see that the amusing stereotype of arts students at university is taken seriously by a senior politician in the Island. To claim, in an official proposed amendment (Page – 36 P.99/2010 Amd.(7)) to the Higher Education Budget, that philosophy is for ‘stoners’ would be considered extremely offensive by many; not just by philosophy students now working in the Island, but by numerous high-ranking politicians who would, by most people’s standards, be considered significantly senior to Ben Shenton. The current Prime Minister and three of the five candidates for leader of the opposition studied philosophy as part of their degree – Hardly convenience store workers.
The list does not stop there. Five winners of the Nobel Peace Prize and nine winners of the Nobel Prize for Literature read philosophy at university. Philosophers focussing on formal logic contributed so much to the development of computer science, that it’s quite reasonable to claim computing as we know it would not exist without their input; philosophers have contributed to the development of advanced mathematics, to legal policies on ethical matters like abortion and euthanasia, and even to the forming of the US Constitution, which is widely thought to be based primarily on the philosophy of John Locke.
Even if Ben Shenton were to argue that these were exceptions rather than the rule, and that most philosophy graduates do indeed work in convenience stores, perhaps the senator might be interested to know that philosophy graduates are extremely popular with employers – increasingly so in recent years.
The vast majority of philosophy graduates find graduate jobs within six months of graduation (See the Guardian 20 November 2007); many in the finance sector so crucial to the Island. Why?
Because reading philosophy develops an individual’s ability to critically analyse arguments, to question assumptions, to formulate clear and developed arguments, and to be careful to analyse even the smallest details in literature. These are qualities essential to success in many careers.
While it is clear that public spending needs to be cut, and even that encouraging students not suited to university studies to embark on apprenticeships, to pick out philosophy, sociology and psychology as soft subjects is absurd.
Nobody who has any understanding of the more sophisticated debates in any of these disciplines would make such a claim, and to see them publically degraded is appalling. An apology would certainly be appropriate.
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Better still perhaps they should cut funding for Business Studies. Its depressing that so many students from the islands who have been to our better schools and gained good A levels go on and do this mish-mash “degree” that’s generally offered by the former poly’s and lower tier 60′s university. If our students can’t cut it with a rigorous single subject honours degree then they are better off just getting stuck into the entry level professional qualifications instead.
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Philosophy students study formal logic and consistency of arguments and logical positions. We could do we a bit more philosophy in the States chamber, quite a few members do not seem to have given much thought to the ideas that they profess.
Thankfully few of their electors read what passes for manifestos or follow the voting records of their representatives or they would quickly realise that quite a few members do not have a clue!
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Maybe Sen Shenton would prefer students to study media, drama or theatre studies at university? Perhaps he ought to take some time form his exceedingly busy schedule and check out Oxbridge favoured degrees and preferred subjects at A levels which include in the top category none other than “Philosophy” !
Apology required by Sen Shenton to all Philo students
p.s. what did the senator study at university?
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Very well said Benjamin
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Which University did Ben Shenton go to and which subject did he read there?
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Now, now, don’t get catty!
Everyone knows that Phillip Ozouf, our esteemed Treasury Minister, has a degree in Business Studies, and look where that has got us.
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Just found this on todays BBC site.
Sorry Ben you really don’t know what you are talking about!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11136511
It is the degree of choice for the Westminster elite, claiming six cabinet members and three Labour leadership contenders among its alumni. Why does Oxford’s politics, philosophy and economics course dominate public life?
In the corridors of power, at the very highest reaches of government, a form of educational freemasonry holds sway.
It has nothing to do with Eton College, nor even the Bullingdon Club – both far more commonly-cited lightning rods for resentments about class, privilege and the fast track to power.
Instead, the surest ticket to the top – for Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem politicians alike – is surely a degree in politics, philosophy and economics (PPE) at the University of Oxford.
No fewer than six members of the cabinet, including the prime minister, foreign secretary and chief secretary to the treasury, are Oxford PPE graduates, as are an additional two ministers who attend their meetings
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5 Jenny
“Which University did Ben Shenton go to and which subject did he read”
I really don’t know his qualifications, but he only got into the States due to daddy’s name certainly not for his ability
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Aukward 7.
I fear there is a flaw in your reasoning. You seem to forget that the ‘great’ thing about being a member of the ‘Power House’ is that there are no qualifications required to be a politician.
However, if things were arranged differently, the UK would probably have a qualified scientist or engineer in charge of the Dept. of Energy (instead of a gentleman with strong links to the Russian oil companies and the infamous Russian billionaire Boris Berezovsky); an economist in charge of the economy (instead of the current aristocratic Chancellor of the Exchequer) and so on and so forth.
Unfortunately, having real-world experience is not viewed as an accomplishment in politics. The main requirements for key positions seem to be: wealthy background; friends in ‘high’ places; a big smile…and oh yes, the capacity to read from a teleprompter.
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8.Born Warrior
If you read what Ben Shenton says in his proposition, he states that people doing philosophy and psychology will end up serving behind a counter.It is that that is the issue it is an ignorant and erroneous statement.Sure enough many people who have ‘made it’ did not go through this route but it is they who are exceptions.
By the way the current PPP Philosophy , Psychology,and Physiology undergraduate course at Oxford University is approved for the commencement of the ,in total, 8 year Clinical Psychology profession, is that the same as working behind a convenience store counter?
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Just think, how much more venal and avaricious the typical bean on this island would become if we followed Senator Shenton’s advice and cut out learning for learning’s sake at University. He reminds me of that definition of a cynic, “A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing”.
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Imagine the complete and utter shame and embarrassment of ending up serving behind a counter! If only we could all be like Senator Shenton instead!
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Very well said.
Maybe worth a thought in the whole debate is that on just the other side of the Channel is another ‘mainland’, where education for education’s sake is held in slightly higher esteem, as well as public university tuition fees being significantly lower.
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Aukward 10.
In my opinion, Senator Shenton is right, the university system is riddled with ‘non-courses’ that young people pretend to study before embarking on a life-long career in ‘nothing in particular’. Needless to say, Senator Shenton’s verbal skills and communication awareness are not likely to bring many people along with his way of thinking. He would do well to rethink his persuasion techniques and avoid making statements that get him ‘nailed’ (the term “soft courses” would have been sufficient…there was no need to mention specific courses).
Furthermore, society receives externalities from all workers, including those behind a counter. However, the modern world needs people with enduring skills, therefore, laudable youngsters should be encouraged to channel their capacities into positive outlets which provide these skills. The ‘der…der’ brigade who wish to ‘study’ subjects (for whatever reason) that benefit no-one but themselves should not be allowed to become a drain on resources.
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Another Senator displaying their ignorance for us all to see.
The boy Shenton has clearly never heard the phrase it is better to keep your mouth shut and let everyone presume you are an idiot than open it and prove it beyond all doubt.
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Great letter.
#7 ‘Philosophy’ is NOT the “degree of choice”. You mention people who studied ‘Philosophy’ yet fail to point out that Philosophy was only one part of their qualification. For politicians the benefit of studying Philosophy cannot be ignored but the greater need is for Economics and Politics (which made up more of their study). That said, should any of these subjects be lauded given the mess politicians get us into?
There is a case for Philosophy in the advancement of Mathematics but you don’t need to be taught Philosophy to make that advancement, you do need to be taught Math. The philosophical aspect of it can come from natural ability alone, an ability that is often found among Pure Mathematicians and is usually what attracted them to that branch of Mathematics in the first place. Philosophy is a subject that most definitely complements other subjects but I would have concerns over someone taking it as a standalone subject, unless they aim to be a Professor of Philosophy.
Also, like Psychology and Sociology, if you have the right kind of brain and are very aware of all aspects of your environment you can draw some of the same conclusions the experts get paid to give you. I’d love to see someone try and do that in a Science discipline without being very well-read on the subject.
Although wrong in his overall assertion, Shenton would do well to highlight the issue of why students are taking these subjects (in ever-growing numbers). Recent reports were that students are avoiding sciences and languages because they require accurate answers and, in science, you have to show how you arrived at the correct answer. So sciences and languages may actually be tougher but people have taken these subjects successfully for years, what is making today’s young people think they aren’t capable of taking them? For me, that is the bigger question, and unfortunately the answer to it requires fundamental changes to the primary school system!
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Sorry Leah Holmes you are not totally correct in your assertion of PPE and PPP. The students usually only take two of the three (it is strongly recommended not to take three due to the onerous workload).
Also in this Oxbridge context the psychology is Experimental Psychology which is absolutely a science and accredited as a Clinical Psychology element.(this course will change next year to Experimental Psychology only).
Anyone who has seen the work involved in Formal Logic, a small part of the Oxford first year would think differently about Ben Shentons ill informed rant.
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#17 I was referring specifically to the mention of politicians taking PPE, in which case if they didn’t take all three then it’s somewhat misleading of them to say “PPE”. The point still stands that Philosophy is being studied alongside at least one other subject.
Was Ben Shenton talking about Jersey students going to study PPE or PPP at Oxbridge? How many Jersey students go to Oxbridge to read these subjects? Clearly that’s quite different to someone studying Philosophy at A. N. Other University. I think Aukward just jumped on a course involving Philosophy that is taken more seriously than the others, PPE is the exception not the rule.
I don’t see any problem with Psychology, have had to study some myself in the past and may further this study in the future, I just wouldn’t compare it directly to other sciences. I would also love to study Philosophy but that would be just for fun and after having other subjects under my belt.
I don’t believe the taxpayer should fund any degrees but if I had to choose between Psychology and Philosophy, I’d go with funding Psychology, with public benefit being the deciding factor.
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Leah Holmes,
Unfortunately Ben Shenton is generally disparaging
PPP Oxford 2 Jersey although one may have finished 1 Guernsey I think.
PPE 1 oxford and perhaps a couple at Durham/York
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#19 Thanks for the info. I agree about the tone of Mr Shenton’s words on those courses, I just don’t disagree with his views on who finances such degrees. I can’t think of any qualifications that should be criticised purely on the basis of their subject matter other than that Madonna one that was offered once!
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Born Warrior 14
That’s not the fault of the undergraduate but the fault of the system. Aside from a few vocational careers, employers want degrees and generally they are much more interested in the mark you achieved rather than the subject you took.
It’s true the Senator does like the sound of his own voice and often speaks before he thinks. I wouldn’t pay too much notice.
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Just heard that the son of one of our most senior legal officers has gained a first in philosophy from a University York.
What a waster eh! Ben. Is there anyone else you could offend at the same time. Or is University of Life and a clerk in a non-descript trust company what us peasants should aspire too.!
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