A rise in GST is not a certainty, insists Deputy
Monday 25th October 2010, 2:56PM BST.
One of last year's GST protests
ISLANDERS should fight the threatened GST increase, which would hit middle earners and jeopardise the Island’s economic recovery, says Deputy Montfort Tadier.
And the Deputy has hinted at a battle on the floor of the States Chamber by referring to last year’s rebellion over duty rises. An amendment on the 2% GST increase would make an interesting clash with the elections less than a year away.
Deputy Tadier said that the increase was not inevitable and he wants like-minded politicians and members of the public to come together to fight the ministerial proposals for the five per cent GST rate in the Budget.
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15,000 Islanders signed a petition, attended meetings and lobbied States Members for this Tax not to implemented.
The powers chose not to listen. Why should it be any different now?
They just do what they want with little or no regard to the people who put them into office.
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“Deputy Tadier said that the increase was not inevitable”
No it’s not, no more than sunrise tomorrow. As for fighting the increase, didn’t we fight the introduction of this tax to begin with, for all the good it did.
GST will increase to 5% and it won’t stop there, I wouldn’t mind but the prices we pay without GST are higher than UK prices with VAT added, effectively we are paying VAT & GST, thank God for the internet.
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Deputy Tadier, it is easy to go against the GST increase, but what is your alternative? You don’t have one that is not funded and costed, and that will hurt the island.
If you refuse this, then you will put at risk the entire islands economy.
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A Battle on the Floor or just more hot air?
Amazing how this same Deputy voted in favour of Geoff Southern’s ‘Anti Finance’ Industry motion last week on funding yet he thinks we can still magic money out of Top Hats. I hear his proposal to fill the GST 2% gap will be to use monies from the Strategic Reserve, well that really is original isn’t it…..?
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Thats what they told 19,500 people last time isn’t it? When are these do-gooder States Members going to stop coming out with populist comments and face reality for a change? There is a £100 Milllion blackhole so come Deputy Tadier, how do we fill it or do you not know?
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The boy Tadier is nothing if not consistent,he was against this from the beginning…..The public are sick of picking up the tab for what is truly bad management,no accountability,remember before he went Ian Black said he had no idea what the financial state of play was and WE were paying him an arm and a leg to know.the unexplained squandering of hundreds of thousands of pounds weekly has never been apologised for no one has been pilloried over it the public have been treated like stupid sheep,millions have dissapeared.”Ah well the punters will cough up who cares”…well we are sick of it .I think Tadier will get more support that many may think….
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Actually, yes it is a certainty, the only issue is whether the increase comes now or a few months down the line.
In fact, I’d also say it’s a certainty that at some point down the line GST will be 10%
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When GST was first introduced we were told that it was “only” 3%. Before that was added to the final sales price the shops had to make up for their increased costs in rental, electricity, insurance and the wholesale prices. I anticipated that the actual price increases would be closer to 10% and I saw that many did go up by that much.
Any further increase, which has been anticipated for a long time, will make our prices even higher than they are now. I already buy many items from the UK and other countries as they are basically cheaper and, if the cost is above the threshold, the GST is only added once.
The assumption seems to be that we will all buy the same goods and just pay more for them. Many of us cannot afford to and will just buy less or from outside sources. It is not surprising that we have noticed an increase in the number of empty shops.
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Oh so the Deputy has woken up then. We haven’t heard anything for two years and now one year before elections he suggests something. He must think we are all stupid.
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I think someone is having a pipe dream. It’s not just the middle income earners who will suffer from an increase in GST, as highlighted in Ben Quérée’s article, pensioners will also definitely feel the pinch. That said if the Island’s Chancellor of the Exchequer is to be believed, Jersey will need to increase this tax on goods and services. Maybe Deputy Tadier would explain his alternative method for sorting out the Island’s economic woes.
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Well, that took a little longer than I expected. A young ‘politician’ jumping on the populist bandwagon! When we’ve spent our hard earned savings and continue to head towards debt what will the Deputy say – sorry? Let’s bite the bullet and get our Island back on track asap. Deputy, please don’t look for cheap votes whilst our Island heads for bankruptcy.
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Deputy Tadier, how do you expect to fix the worlwide economic problems we face locally? Spend a strategic reserve? You are not fitting for your role.
All care and no responsibility comes to mind.
The decisions made are a necessary evil unfortunately.
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Alan Anderson is right, what was that vote against Jersey Finance Funding by these £44,000.00 a year so called progressives all about last week? I work in Finance and will never vote for this fool again, my job relies on this industry. Its the kind of politics that is attention seeking and at the same time careless and dangerous. Roll on the next elections and lets get some better people in, a fight on the floor, what a load of rubbish this man sprouts out.
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Hi Real Truthseeker re your comments why don’t we tax the rich? they can afford to pay more tax easily O no that’s to left wing for you, just let the poor starve would be a good slogan for you when you stand for the States GOD HELP the people of Jersey with your type around
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I am sorry and I hope he reads this but I am fed up with this deputy, he is doing nothing for the people who pay his wages.
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Bring it on monty.
Taking money out of our pockets will lead to less being spent in the economy,more business closures and more people on income support.
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Tadier is not the criminal here it is the non stop spending….spending our money…all those who take the view we should just pay any amounts of GST must be in good employment so it does not dent their lifestyle too much…but it is a let them eat cake approach which is neither helpful or terribly realistic,a bit like that American madman in the senate who said recently if the gas reaches 10$ a gallon who cares the poor people don’t need to go anywhere anyway….all this has come upon us out of greed and selfishness ,are we to learn nothing from it yet again….?
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Through gst the States have an open cheque book to have as much money as they need to keep the States machine going including massive wastes of money and the index linked pensions they enjoy whilst we pull our belts in yet again.
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Fair play Mr Tadier; a rise of 5% GST with no exemptions is not only grossly unfair on the Jersey public but it also poses a real danger to the recovery of our economy.
Higher GST will simply move trade off the high street and on to the internet, resulting in less capital flowing into Jersey businesses.
I for one (a fairly average Joe Public sort) avoid shopping in St Helier at ALL COSTS as the prices for everything (clothes, electrical goods, books…EVERYTHING) can be beaten on the internet with the merest click of a mouse. Raising GST further only cements my buying habits and will do for thousands more.
As for using the Strategic Reserve fund…what are they waiting for? An earthquake? Tsunamis?
Surely a good ‘strategy’ in times of recession is to keep the public spending and propping up local business, not hoovering up existing capital via taxes and huge public service cuts.
Mick
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Dean – you are spot on.
Michael: Very simply, everyone shoudl pay taxes, BUT wealthy should not just be a target because they are wealthy. It is entirely unfair! The tall poppy syndrome your lot suffer from, wil dampen the entrepreneurial spirit, people who are ingenious, creating jobs, and paying taxes over their wealth development.
Those genuine cases shoudl not be left to ‘starve’ as you put it, but a great majority are scrouning the system. We need to recruit some investigators to clean out those rorting the place, and cust spending in that area – simple.
Michael: Glad you are not running.
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If someone in Jersey’s government stands up for low income families, those who are struggling to survive then instead of sniping from this forum lets look at what Deputy Tadier wants to achieve.
Jersey has a finance industry that despite all the turmoil the world faces, continues to generate revenue.
We are ALL paying for the deficit we find ourselves in, but it was to a large part bailig out the finance industry that tipped us into this abyss.
Its well past time that the finance industry and the sacred cow that is the 1.1K clan paid their share.
Both groups enjoy the beneficial conditions offered by Jersey and what they put back in is neither fair or equitable.
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It is widely accepted that when the UK VAT rate increases by 2.5% to 20% – UK retailers are largely going to take the hit in the form of lower margins. What is the betting that Jersey retailers pass on the full 2% GST increase and a little bit more to round up the figure.
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“Michael: Very simply, everyone shoudl pay taxes, BUT wealthy should not just be a target because they are wealthy. It is entirely unfair! The tall poppy syndrome your lot suffer from, wil dampen the entrepreneurial spirit, people who are ingenious, creating jobs, and paying taxes over their wealth development.”
I can see that your nomination night speech will be one of those fun Radio Four things.
We will all cheer every time you say “Tall Poppy” or one of your other cliches.
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Its simple electioneering but pointless. To suggest we fill the gap with savings is just pathetic, anybody can suggest that. No we need more brains in the States and Tadier needs to go back to the translation job.
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Deputy Tadier has been against all the spending cuts – has marched along with the teachers demanding higher salaries for civil servants. He has wasted millions in his demands for independent UK experts to review almost everything from the church to the Governor. All this paid for from ever decreasing taxation.
If he did his job instead of sulking over trivial issues such as the optional saying of prayers before a states sitting for which he never turned up to anyway then just maybe sufficient saving could have been made and the economy spared the worst of the recession. Then maybe his demands would have some credence. Deputy Tadier is part of the problem and if this electioneering stunt gets him back at the next election then we will be paying 10% for his playground politics in the run up to the election after that.
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I would like to see GST gone altogether but come on you so called “progressives”, you can start coming up with brighter ideas of filling the gap then just raiding reserves because I have to agree with other comments on here, its very simple. Its almost as stupid as Corbel’s idea of borrowing money to pay wages. If they can’t come up with better ideas then its time to own up that we need to raise taxes. The Reserves are only there for dia emergencies not to keep people spending.
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GST only hits those that spend.
The rich spend more than the poor.
With more GST income those on the backbone of their a*ses can be means tested and targeted with extra benefits.
Am I being too simplistic?
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So taxes going up but at least we still only have a 20% basic rate.
What I have noticed is that there are too many people in Jersey who think this the Island owes them a living with very little input from them and thats the problem.
And unlike these free riders the 1.(1).K’s can just sell up and leave at anytime if pushed hard enough and leave an even bigger tax deficit for the lefties to think about.
But sorry Mr Tadier, Mr Pitman and Mr Southern, moan as much as you want about the plight of the less well off, but thats life I am afraid and love it or despise it the wealthy call the shots In Jersey no matter what.
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Tadier, Pitman, Southern: all dog whistling, against spending cuts, and against tax rises.
Who manages their finances I wonder? What a terrible state it must be in!
Truthseeker: you need to get a new whistle, the tune of yours is getting a tad predictable.
Comments 25, 26, 27: good to see some decent, logical arguments on these blogs for a change! Exactly the points need to sink into the concrete troglodyte heads of the vocal minority which inhabit these blogs.
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Well I agree, but we need an alternative, and that alternative I believe should be the rich. Well done deputy.
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Quote
Michael: Very simply, everyone shoudl pay taxes, BUT wealthy should not just be a target because they are wealthy. It is entirely unfair!
Sorry {Truth?}seeker but the wealthy with there set arrangements with set levels of Income Tax, not to mention there expensive accountants all strive to pay as little as possible in tax, while the man in the street has to pay every demand with out any such agreements and without the very expensive professional help! Just imagine the Income Tax Department sitting down with the average citizen to agree a level of taxation for them they would not even get in the front door, high time the rich paid more
It is middle Jersey that keeps Jersey afloat and they are under constant attack from there own Government whether it is GST Schools fees high rents, ridiculous property prices, increased fuel tax, etc, etc all so as those IDIOTS in the States can continue to waste our money
Read more
http://www.thisisjersey.com/2010/10/25/a-rise-in-gst-is-not-a-certainty-insists-deputy/#ixzz13TuOhRAT
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I love the populist suggestions made by the left in the face of another no win situation. Jersey is losing money and thats the fact of the matter, we do not want to borrow and we do not want to raid savings yet.
An Island thats a victim of changes you could say, but the sooner people get used to it the better now, frankly I am sick of hearing winging deputies liek Tadier who have no other suggestions to these kind of problems.
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Michael, a mate of mine received a large tax bill, demanding many thousands to be paid by the end of November. He sat down last week with the tax office and reached an agreement and payment plan spanning three years. His base is just on £45k.
I have also in years passed reached agreement on payign back outstanding taxes to my benefit without any direct experience or professional help.
These examples invalidate your argument. If people are so lazy as to simply pay what is demanded, and not work with the States, and discuss with a cool head, then more fool them. The lazy deserve everything they get!
I notice Dep Tadier has not been on here to defend himself. Perhaps he is as hollow as his recommendations.
I would love a public debate with this man!
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“we do not want to borrow and we do not want to raid savings yet.”
I agree 100% Tel because savings will need to be replenished no matter what and borrowing will incur interest so its an eat humble pie situation.
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@33 Real Truthseeker
If you read Michael’s post (31) properly you would have seen he is saying you and I cannot negotiate a lower rate of tax.
Instead you spout on about you and your friend’s ability to negotiate a payment plan when you goofed up and didn’t save enough or keep an eye on your itis rate.
Payment plans for those that cannot manage their finances, and negotiated tax rates for the rich that can, are not the same thing.
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Quick recap on some basic economics. Prices are what they are because customers are prepared to pay them. If you are prepared to pay £1.03 on a Friday but not £1.05 on the Saturday, the price will be £1.03 again on the Monday. Businesses that can’t cope with this are running on such fine margins that they need to be innovative with their business model or get out of business. The introduction of GST shook out some businesses that didn’t have the customer loyalty or indeed have the guile to deal with 3p in the pound and to the rubbish tip they went, where they belong.
GST provides balance in the tax system (indirect to complement the directs), it is fair because everyone pays it, it is fair because if you have more money you spend more money and pay more tax (note 11k’s are not exempt from GST), and on top of all that, the real cherry on top of the icing on top of the tax cake – French tourists have to pay it.
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“I notice Dep Tadier has not been on here to defend himself. Perhaps he is as hollow as his recommendations.”
Err… I haven’t noticed Ozouf, Le Sueur, Reed, Shenton etc etc on here defending their positions either. Are they hollow too? What’s your point?
Are politicians supposed to come on this forum to ‘debate’ with you or are you just choosing Deputy Tadier?
You could always go on to his blog and post there. He is very likely to respond. http://mtadier.blogspot.com/
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Buster Gut: You obviously don’t come on the blog often. Regularly Shenton and Reed comment on blogs.
Either way, Deputy Tadier is the one who has been makigni outrageous claims without coming up with a solution. Those you mention have come up with aq solution to the problem. All Taqdier does is whinge and moan.
GEt with the program Buster, cause you really have alot to catch up on…
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David, I negotiated a tax rate from 22% 9suggested by tax office) to 16%.
You might need facts before you comment, otherwise you will have a face as red as that part of an orang-u-tan.
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Real Truthseeker’s comments are invalidated due to his name being opposed to his arguments.
Mike you are in error in what you have said. Business people I have spoken to have given up simply because they could not afford to waste most of their working week sorting out GST issues.
This is the reason their companies have suddenly become inefficient. So the blame lays fairly and squarely with the like of Ozouf and co for implimenting this regressive tax as far as I am concerned. Anyone who knows anything about economics will know regressive taxes are not fair.
All this will do is put more small/medium sized businesses out of work causing more unemployment and thus necessitating a further rise in GST to plug these new gaps.
Also more people will be put into relative poverty over here due to this cruel tax penalising them more than other sections of society. Welfare will thus increase yet further, more drain on resources.
A nice downward spiral if ever I saw one. This doesn’t take into account further external issues with finance globally.
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Real Truthseeker; I too managed to get my effective rate lowered. I think, however, that you may perhaps have missed a distinction here.
When the tax office lowers your effective rate, such a thing occurs because you have shown the officers what your tax liability should be and the comptroller has made the necessary adjustment. If it is negotiation, then it is really only a negotiation based upon communication and acting within the 1961 law.
The type of negotiation that concerns many within the island is when the comptroller grants a concession to a wealthy individual which has the effect of enabling that individual to pay a more favourable rate of tax than other, “ordinary” taxpayers. There is a school of sort which suggests that this kind of manoevering may fall outside the law.
Your comment is interesting, although it is blighted and devalued by your resort to personal insult. At the expense of bringing forth further such comment from you, it would be worth knowing how you managed to “negotiate” with the comptroller. Was it a special deal based upon a position of privilege or did you simply establish your proper and legal tax liabilty and proceed from there?
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5# There is no £100 m black hole, just because Ozouf says this over and over and over again makes it no more true than it was five years ago when he projected a £50 M black hole. In that time Tax receipts have been £100 m more than anticipated. But the Senator threw it away on civil service nonsense jobs worth 100′s of thousands. He and Le sueur forgot to hedge the incinerator fund and lost how many milllion. All this happended on their watch. Time for them to go. If this was any other political system that caused such a mess because of economic incompetence he would be voted out immediatley. But he not facing the electorate next year so he thinks he can do what he likes.
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27, “being simplistic”, yes you are. Given that there are no exemptions, GST over in Jersey is very regressive. The poorer have no choice but to spend more of their income merely to survive ie food and clothing. When you get to a higher level of income the percentage of your income that is spent and is hit by GST falls dramatically. Things like saving and investing are not options for the poorer members of our society. So for a high earner, the real effect of GST may be a fraction of the effect on the disposal income of a lower income earner. Now you may argue that its a good incentive for someone to get on in their job and career but that’s another arguement and one which i think the positive reasons for the introduction of GST didn’t cover!
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Adrian, exactly, those businesses that couldn’t cope and ended up spending “most of their working week” on implementing GST went to the wall and rightly so. The vast majority of businesses did cope and won’t have to go through implementation again, just change the rate. The fittest have survived and will do so again as they always have done, and new ones will spring up to replace the trash – go down to Liberty Wharf when it opens and see what fresh business looks like.
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Interesting comment at Mike (44). No sympathy there for struggling small businesses. Sounds like something posted by someone on a salary, not someone at the sharp end, I feel.
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‘on top of all that, the real cherry on top of the icing on top of the tax cake – French tourists have to pay it.’
I love it, Mike, best wisecrack on here for a long time!
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Real Truthseeker you are incredible, i truly believe you are the new messiah, you can do anything!
Please share your wisdom in negotiation! Let us all know how you managed to persuade the Tax department that you did in fact NOT owe them the amount they believed and that you were entitled to a 6% tax cut….. There is, after all, no way the tax dept could of made a mistake about your original tax liability (they are never wrong) and you simply showed them their error and they then adjusted your ITIS accordingly!
No… its much more likely that your powers of articulation mesmerized them into reducing the rate and there’s no way that your GARGANTUAN degree of self importance actually made you think you had persuaded those reasonable people at the Tax dept, that you were simply awesome and so deserved to pay less.
Come on, own up, you’re Derren Brown aren’t you!
I suggest we all realise exactly what you are (most have) and begin worshipping at the alter of
“THE REAL TRUTHSEEKER”.
Still gotta laugh.
Love & Hugs! XXX
… Oh yeah, GST… shop online!
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GST goes up
Tax take goes up
Inflation goes up
Wage demands go up
Wages go up
Tax take (income tax) goes up
States have more money to squander
Squandering goes up (and faster than income)
New deficit identified
GST goes up
…
What we really need is a full review of spending and action to be taken to implement cost savings. Then and only then should taxes be allowed to rise to cover any true structural deficit which remains.
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Baz – nope, I am just a very naughty boy…
lots of love and hugs back to you too.
I am not allowed to discuss my tax affairs any longer on line – sorry.
xoxo
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Baz 47 brilliant comment so right, I laughed so much perhaps we should set a shrine so we could all go and pay homage to the genius which is the REAL truth seeker
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I hope you’ve told the taxman, if you haven’t then you are indeed a naughty boy.
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Michael (14 & 31) You are correct, but your TRUE target is nothing but the bleating of the TRUE black sheep of the antipodeans flock intent on milking Jersey dry before they retire to home pastures.
What we need is less bleating. Nothing is certain, certainly not Deputy Tadier and his call to arms. The only certain fact is that our political elite; left; right or centre; who have let the fair Isle of Jersey go to the dogs.
We need political reform. 24 working senators and then bin the rest, out with the dead wood.
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Nuova Vista, raising your head above the parapet again. Wy do we need political reform? Jersey has done very well, and so has its citizens.
For you to moan, you clearly don’t understand how good people have it here.
We need to cut benefits, and cut free housing, and encourage the finance industry and other entrepreneurial pursuits.
This will happen, whether I eventually get elected or not, becuase we have the right people in to see it. Why keep farmland when we dont’ use it any more? So you and truthseeker can go lolling about in the pastures on a rare summer day?
Build for industry I say!
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Don’t raise the GST on food and childrens clothing – simple.
Higher the cost of cigarettes to make up for the short fall. (I’m sure most level headed smokers will see this will benefit the island as a whole). Oh, that is unless they stop people having the choice to smoke or not.
As for that – ban smoking in the town centre till 6pm, providing a few areas for those that require it. Ban it in childrens parks all together.
As for the litter – ITS A TOWN CENTRE!!! IT HAPPENS!
Can this island compromise??
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Quote from “REAL truth seeker”
Why keep farmland when we dont use it any more? So you and truth seeker can go lolling about in the pastures on a rare summer day?
Build for industry I say!
Sorry but he has completely lost it with the above statement, just so ridiculous as for being elected no chance what so ever he has no credibility left what so ever
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Jersey needs political reform, even the States members agree on that.
What they cannot decide on is the nature of the reform.
But we are losing four Senators and moving to all members being elected on a single day and that will be a start.
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Michael: Why not, just because it doesn’t suit your desires? Jersey will have some serious employment and social problems in years to come. Due to its ideal location (as pirates from years past also found), Jersey should exploit it’s ability in industry, and ensure the unemployed are given employment.
The only way is industry – and industry requires space to be built on.
Simple, practical, and get over yourself.
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Real Truthseeker#57
You have my vote.
I just hope when elected you don’t go all gooey and pink in the face of oposition like some of our leaders.
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Thanks PJG: We will be victorious!
I am off to NZ for Christmas to see family. Hope you can hold the fort in my absence!
Hold fast dear friend. I will return!
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“Why keep farmland when we dont use it any more?”
Seriously. Someone actually asked such a question? Clearly they live in a world where there have been no food shortages whatsoever, no need for countries to limit export to ensure their own citizens are fed.
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Leah: because every country doesn’t produce all their own food, rather we have intellectual industries, rather than simple farming ones.
How many banana trees do we have in JErsey? Interesting, and in case you didn’t realise – there are loads of banana’s in the shops. Guess where they come from?
We need job competitive industry here: we cannot realistically compete with other cheaper labour farming ones (unless you and everyone else wants to take a massive pay cut, or pay five times their current weekly groceries prices).
Some people really need to get out of fantasy land Leah: the likes of these views held by some, such as truthseeker, yourself, CLV and others just don’t udnerstand the reality of their existence.
They want farming in Jersey, but to pay prices as though they are coming out of Africa.
My only way of reconciling this, is that there must have been a preponderance of lobotamy’s performed here in the past.
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Good on you Monty!
You are doing an excellent job, you will definately be re-elected.
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‘…rather we have intellectual industries’
Otherwise known asd ‘Mickey Mouse’ industrties.
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Sorry about the typos. I did that one (63) on my little notebook P.C. on the bus, without my reading glasses.
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“Leah: because every country doesn’t produce all their own food, rather we have intellectual industries, rather than simple farming ones.
How many banana trees do we have in JErsey? Interesting, and in case you didn’t realise – there are loads of banana’s in the shops. Guess where they come from?”
I wonder how long the free market in food and materials will continue.
The Chinese in particular have acquired large blocks of farmland in Africa. Plus they have other contracts elsewhere, they have pretty much gained exclusive rights to large coal deposits in Australia.
If the global population rises to 9 billion in say 20 years we will be pushed for resources.
Food, fresh water and energy will be at a premium even if we can grow and extract a lot more.
We will see what intellectual industry is worth then?
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Real Truthseeker “How many banana trees do we have in JErsey?”
Answer:- Quite a few.
Do you get paid by the authorities for all this garbage or is it self generated?
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