2

Real Truthseeker

“It believes that the tables would place a ‘disproportionate emphasis’ on results”

What a ridiculous statement! The beauty about releasing such information is we get to see where problems are, and therefore where to send our children to (fee paying or otherwise).

Come on, grow some and let’s see the truth, that fee-paying schools produce better results, and therefore shoudl be the model when it comes to education, rather than this Stalin environment which keeps information such as this quiet, so as not to show how pitiful some teachers are…

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4

Island Strife

Why won’t these just be published ?

There are regions in the UK with less schools and a population of anything from 30,000 to 80,000 and their regional results are published.

The arguments for not publishing our schools respective results simply don’t add up.

It should be published, and any schools whose results aren’t up to the desired standard should be helped to improve.

Any desire to not publish these just fuels the perception of problems and cover-ups.

What is so wrong with giving what I would imagine the majority of parents over here would want to see ?
A clear and transparent table of performance so both the good, and maybe not so good results could be viewed.

Or does Jersey not do open and transparent on any level ?

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6

Mick

Ok so here’s the scenario:

PEDDLER

I give you ten students who come from households where the parents earn £100,000+ a year between them. All of these students speak English as a first language. None of them have any learning difficulties.

REAL TRUTHSEEKER

I give you ten students from families where the parents earn under £30,000 a year between them. Four of your students speak English as a second language (two are Polish, two Portuguese). One of your children is autistic. Another is currently staying at a residential home due to familial problems. Another has dyslexia.

At the end of the year I am going to ask your students to take English, Maths and French exams.

I would expect you to get pretty much identical results (A-C grades please). Real Truthseeker – should you results not match Peddlers then I shall assume that you are a terrible teacher and warn people not to give you the time of day.

I will also publish the results in the JEP in the form of simple numerical league tables (without any information about the needs of your pupils) so everybody knows how bad a teacher you actually are.

Seem fair to you?

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8

Davey West

If you ask any headmaster or headmistress what is their biggest problem ? top of their list will be useless teachers who bring down standards but cannot be removed.

This tells us that children needs clearly come second to poor teachers who have a job for life unless they do something despicable which is unlikely.

A broken and outdated protectionist system unheard of in the real world.

Yes, it would put pressure on poor teachers not on good ones, and students learn more when taught by enthusiastic, dedicated inspired teachers who enjoy their work.

I have always wondered why teachers are allowed to carry on other private businesses and second jobs, and how that relates to the education of children.

These tables are common sense, much needed and a step towards the real world of accountability and ultimately better examination results to the benefit of children.

Davey West

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10

Diane

Island Strife (4) said “Or does Jersey not do open and transparent on any level ?”

The answer – No!

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12

recently redundant

If you really want to improve the standard of education in Jersey, then remove the catchment area restrictions, give parent a choice of which school they want and PUBLSH SCHOOL RESULTS.
But NO, we couldn’t do that, could we?
Schools and teachers would be held to account by parents rather than a self serving civil service and a dozy Minister !
Wake up Jersey – your getting taken for a ride.

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14

Pip Clement

“I have always wondered why teachers are allowed to carry on other private businesses and second jobs, and how that relates to the education of children.”

There is no restriction on other employees carrying on another trade or employment when they are not engaged in their main employment.
It would be a bit odd and probably illegal to restrict teachers in this way

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16

Scouser

My god! you lot really frighten me. Publish and be damned!!!! what a spineless bunch we have running this place. On the one hand we get told how wonderful Jersey educational standards are and the next minute they wont even publish a league table. Just get on with it!!!!!

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18

B Grimm

I have been a secondary teacher for 10+ years and have spent time teaching at two of the island’s secondary schools. Previous to that I spent 4 years teaching in a multi-cultural comprehensive in London.

During all this time I have never once worked in a department that didn’t self-audit by

- analysing grade breakdown at the end of every school year (especially GSCE and A Level)

- frequent peer observations of teachers by each other and senior management

- spot-check by management and heads of department with regards marking and setting of homework

- termly performance review meetings with setting of objectives which are then followed up

- INSET for staff on new models of learning, behavioural management and other educational matters

I could go on; this doesn’t even touch upon the reports and inspections carried out at senior level. (And for the record I have also seen staff suspended and on rare occasions plain old sacked for poor performance-it does happen.)

I therefore find it quite bizarre to come on this thread and see a whole bunch of people who have never worked in schools claiming that the only way to improve the quality of teaching on the island is to PUBLISH LEAGUE TABLES (to use the capitals that you are all so fond of).

If any of you are truly interested in how a school is doing, as a parent, you have every right to go into that school and ask to see the exam result for that year, last year, whatever. Just go ask.

What we as teachers tend to find objectionable, however, is the crude tabular comparisons that pit schools against each other at a glance whilst failing to acknowledge in any way the wholly different nature and abilities of the children that a particular school deals with.

When will you be happy? I can guarantee you the the private colleges over here will definitely have a better mean academic score then the public sector schools by dint of the nature of their intake.

Likewise, the schools who take in children from diverse socio-economic backgrounds, who speak English as a second language, who have real learning and behavioural difficulties…these schools will come lower in the league tables.

We all know this! So what are you guys after…do you want the satisfaction of being able to simply pick on whichever school comes bottom and march upon it with flaming brands and pitchforks? Shall we gather up the teachers that work there and coat them in hot tar and feathers? Send those ‘orrible underperforming children to the stocks?

All you will succeed in doing is to make 500 children, 80 odd staff and over a thousand parents feel terrible. That school will then become labelled a ‘failure’, with the resultant negative feedback loop most probably resulting in a decline in pupil performance and staff morale.

Will you all be happy then? Will that do?

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20

Mick

@Mark

‘The basis of any quality system is to understand the system and what is going on.’

Do you know what is going on deep within the confines of your computer’s hard drive? Have you got a detailed understanding of the reproductive system of the garden worm?

Bet the answer to both is NO but your computer still runs fine and the worms will keep on coming.

The people in charge of the education system over here (teachers, management, J.Reed) pretty much agree that one way to SPOIL the system is by introducing league tables.

‘Without statistics (results) quality education is nothing.’

Try telling that to the dyslexic child who has just achieved his first D grade after a lifetime of Fs. Statistical league tables didn’t do him any good…that was down to his teachers and sheer hard work.

I would bet that most if not ALL of the people on here calling for league tables have children at Private Schools and who are simply waiting for an opportunity to sneer at the challenged / low-income families in the States system in order to maintain their own sense of righteous superiority…

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22

PJG

Mick
If one has an average child and can afford to do so, one will naturally want to nurture this averagness into something better.
So one will need to know which school does not have the influences that drag the average down to the grades of, your words not mine,
Families where the parents earn under £30,000 a year between them.
Students speak English as a second language (Polish, Portuguese).
Autistic.
Familial problems
Dyslexia.

And in your naivety you actually wonder why people pay to send their kids to a school where you don’t teach.

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24

Mick

@peddler

Not angry just infuriated by the mob mentality that seems to be the order of the day round here.

As for being ‘the only person who does not want league tables published’ – err…what tosh! Only on this thread perhaps, which seems to serve as a magnet for the furious rantings of the Private Sector.

I would not dispute for a second the fact that disruptive children in the States system cause problems for the brighter children and their teachers.

How then do you suggest we solve the problem? Invest in the States sector to separate these children into smaller, more discreet groups where their behavioural problems can be addressed? Employ more States support staff to help address the issue?

No. All I hear from people on these threads are the following mantras:

DON’T CUT OUR PRIVATE SCHOOL SUBSIDIES

PUBLISH LEAGUE TABLES SO WE CAN SEE HOW BAD THE STATES SCHOOLS ARE

Is it any wonder that I may seem a little cross at times? Do I have a vested interest? YES, dammit – this is my island and I care about the children growing up on it – I care about those children who don’t have high or moderate income parents to speak up for them, for those children who effectively DON’T have a voice, the very same children whose lower ability scores you seek to emblazon across the pages of the JEP for all to look and scorn at.

Sure not all fee paying parents are wealthy, but in my opinion if you can afford £4000 a year per child to go Private then you aren’t doing too badly in life.

For the majority of parents over here that simply isn’t an option. These are the ones that I am standing up for. These are the ones who will suffer if league tables are published and certain schools are labelled ‘the worst’ on the island.

Non fee-paying parents KNOW that Vic College and De la Salle will have the best exam grades because of the nature of their exclusive intake. THEY KNOW THIS. Is it any wonder why none of them are campaigning for league tables…? Why bother? They know the outcome already.

Go read my posts 6 and 7 again. And again. If you don’t understand what I am telling you there then just say so and I will try and explain it in easier terms.

If you DO understand what I am telling you there then I simply fail to understand why you continue in your insistence on the publication of league tables.

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26

Mark

Mick (20) Try telling that to the dyslexic child who has just achieved his first D grade after a lifetime of Fs

Mick whilst I agree with your sentiments, they are misplaced. As the dyslexic child with the MSc, who did not attend a fee subsidised school, I feel well placed to comment.

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28

Desert Fox

Re B. Grimm #18. Excellent post Sir!!! I wish I knew which school you teach at. You appear, from your very well argued piece, to understand how a school is run and indeed the important role that each parent has in ensuring that they contribute to the successful running of the school by showing an active interest. I hope I remember this in 10 years time when I am looking at which secondary school I want my children to attend. It is so refreshing to see a post on this site that does not have a thinly veiled classist metaphorical axe to grind……

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30

Jay

peddler,

I refer you to Mick’s points @ 6 and 7.

I notice that you still haven’t addressed these points, yet you have suggested that Mark somehow has a vested interest in education and is making excuses for the department? Please….

Tell me peddler, what would you do with these “disruptive” children?

Ok, after ansrewing that question, what would you do if one of these disruptive children was you son/daughter?

It seems easy for you to sneer at States schools when you child goes to a fee-paying school but you just come across as a snoot who doesn’t have any answers the the fundamental questions surrounding this argument.

It would be like comparing the educational result of Finland with those of, say, Afghanistan. The results would be totally different because the gulf in circumstances between these two countries is so vast.

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32

peddler

@ Mick, Thankyou for admitting that the States system FAILS brighter students. As for finding a solution, I think you will agree that is Mr Reeds job and not mine.

I hope for the sake of all that you are not and have never been a teacher. Your condescending and downright argumentative nature is not something to be proud of Sir.

I refuse to send my children to a school where they WILL be disrupted due to the Come All Teach All mentality. I struggle to find the money for school fees yet I put my children first. You have no idea about my finances so stop your sweeping statements.

I wish a States school could guarantee that brighter children were encouraged and not held back, and that manners and community spirit were high on the agenda. I would have no hesitation in sending my children there. How you can disagree with this is incomprehensible.

I will say this for the final time – It is the EDUCATION SYSTEM that is letting down the students and NOT the fee paying parents

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34

peddler

@Jay 30 – Mick can fight his own battles so why are you joining in?

I am not a snoot, I simply care deeply about the education that my children receive, therefore I made sacrifices to ensure they receive that education. It is not my job to come up with solutions regarding problem children.

I actually think that Micks suggestion of smaller groups addressing specific needs is a good one.

And for you to compare States / Fee paying with Finland / Afghanistan is offensive. Afghanistan is a war zone.

You may wish to reconsider your words before jumping to the defence of others.

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36

B Grimm

@Real Truthseeker

I absolutely agree with you when you say that

‘If students don’t improve, this is also a pertinent measure of how good a teacher is.’

The trouble is that league tables do not supply this information; they merely provide a bunch of statistics to compare.

How would you respond if I told you that all of the pupils in my English class got Es and Fs for GCSE last year? Compared to other teachers who got A-Cs I would look like a pretty poor teacher.

But here’s the rub: none of my class spoke English as a first language when I received them. The fact that they have achieved E and F grades at GCSE level after two years’ study is a FANTASTIC achievement for both them and me.

And yet, according to the league tables, I am the worst performing teacher in my department. Everybody sees these league tables, sees my Es and Fs against all those other higher grades, and dismisses me as ‘incompetent.’

Thus you can see how even though I may be an exceptional teacher, I would still be horrified at the thoughts of being compared with others’ results in simple tabular form, without lengthy annotation and explanation of all the relevant factors.

Alas this is not what ‘league tables’ are all about. They are a snapshot, a sound bite, and can do irreparable damage to the perceptions of a community. Already we have students looking down on (and in some instances, abusing) other students because of the schools they attend (I hear it every day), or worse, because of the perceived ethnic groups that tend to locate in certain areas of the island and are thus more common in certain secondary schools.

Labeling schools as ‘the worst’ and ‘the best’ due to a simplistic appraisal of their GCSE grades will only lead to greater division, greater animosity, and greater suffering.

I am all in favour of transparency, but it must be delivered in the proper manner. League tables are not the way.

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38

tog

@ Mick 24.

De La salle is not selective ! DLS does have children with special needs mine is one of them.
They have good results, they do publish them in their newsletter to parents and they have a very good Value Added Scores – which at the end of the day is the most important factor.
@ B Grimm
Furthermore there seems to be lots of figures on here saying if a teacher is a good teacher if a teacher is a bad teacher etc – well I can’t think of a secondary school where all of the subjects and all of the children are taught by one teacher over the whole course of secodary education. They are taught by subject teachers, very often this will change annually you can’t expect the same teacher to keep teaching the same child all through its school life. So the end results are often from multiple teachers , some will be better than others.

Finally to thoses that want them you will find the Hautlieu exam results on their website, the other schools used to have them but they seem to have disappeared lately!
I know some very bright children from poorer families and I know some not so bright children from very wealthy families.
I don’t think you can say that poor families do not support their children to learn, whilst wealthy families do – far too general there i think.

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40

Jay

peddler… goodness me, thank the Lord that you’re not the philosophy or English teacher for your little Timmy and Flora.

I was not directly comparing the two. Have another read. You’ll understand it eventually. If not, ask someone else to explain. I’d wager that many State school children would understand.

You weren’t privately educated, were you?

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42

Helen Ness-gifford

I am a Headteacher in England having been a teacher since the early 1980s. League tables have both flattered the schools I have worked in as well as damaged them. They reflect very little of the teaching that goes on in them and say a lot more about the parents. I expect that Jersey’s league tables, if ever published, would be as imperfect as the ones I have lived with all my adult life in the UK.

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44

donald pond

B Grimm makes a valid point:

“How would you respond if I told you that all of the pupils in my English class got Es and Fs for GCSE last year? Compared to other teachers who got A-Cs I would look like a pretty poor teacher.

But here’s the rub: none of my class spoke English as a first language when I received them. The fact that they have achieved E and F grades at GCSE level after two years’ study is a FANTASTIC achievement for both them and me.”

But here’s another rub. That’s fine if NONE of your children spoke English as a first language. But if I am a parent and my child speaks English as a first language, why should I send him to a school where the emphasis is on raising children to an E or F grade?

The argument you make is actually one for selective education: splitting children rigorously on the grounds of their ability/knowledge at the time they join the school and then judging teachers and schools by the improvements they bring.

All parents care about is what is good for their child. And it is clear that one size doesn’t fit all. Which is surely an argument in favour of maintaining the diversity of the current system.

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46

tx

@brian cant

And the prize for the most stupid comment of the whole thread goes to…

‘But if they were good teachers they’d be at better schools, just like good managers are.’

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48

Jay

Brian,

So you’re saying that teachers at the colleges aren’t as good as teachers from the States schools?

What makes you qualified to make this judgement?

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50

Adrian

Why wouldn’t it be good to have league tables to see how any given school is preforming? Then corrective measures could be taken when required.

There is no doubt that some states schools are below par. All you have to do is ask some parents and they will tell you which ones. Some have even demanded that they get their children sent to a school outside their catchment area, why would they do this?

As per DLS they take all ability groups and have had disruptive children which they have normally managed to turn around. It was very rare for anyone to be expelled. They have even got good results from those of a disruptive nature, when t failure was predicted. How was this possible? I put it down to the teachers as it sure wasn’t the infrastructure which was Victorian in places.

Teachers are the most important asset in any school, they make the difference between success and failure, the surroundings come a poor second in my honest opinion. So swanky new buildings mean nothing if the teachers aren’t the best.

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52

Jay

peddler,

Your assertion that the States schools provide a sub-standard educational service is simply untrue.

Coming from a “not so affluent area of the UK”, you should know this.

The fact of the matter is that publishing league tables will do absolutely nothing to resolve any arguments whatsoever. Of course the colleges will have better results, their intake of students is highly selective based on the income of families.

By cutting the subsidy to the colleges, the States are doing my children a favour. They are taking money from the only logical place in the EC&S budget. If you can’t afford to send your kids to private school after these cuts have been made, then that’s just tough.

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54

Adrian

Jay they have a scheme where the poorest can get their fees paid by donations. So a lack of money needn’t be a barrier to a private education.

So it appears you are basically saying parents who pay for their childrens’ education value it more.

They are in fact paying 50% whereas others are paying 0%. The taxpayer is paying for all school costs apart from the 50% paid by the private school parents. These are the facts in black and white.

Having a challenging intake doesn’t necessarily equal failure. It is up to the teachers to get their message across and imbue a sense of value. I have seen children turn the corner with enough help.

Poor teaching will generally tend to lead to poorer exam results, no matter how good the child is, as they won’t be pushed to their full potential.

The only way this can be overcome is if the child is motivated enough to make up for the teaching shortfall. This is rare from what I have witnessed.

Parents who don’t give a damn are a product of the modern age where a lack of respect is taken as a badge of honour. It is getting worse.

How can one ascertain if their child is being given the best when there is no way to compare?

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56

Leah Holmes

#18 Well said.

#54 “grimbo thinks he’s doing a good job getting kids an E in english.
but those peeps will end up doing manual labour.
they won’t get to uni with that grade.
so he’s wasting his time and our money.”

Can you explain why you think he is wasting his time? School education is compulsory after all, even if the children attending school can barely write their name they still have to be there and so there needs to be teachers there to teach. Also, why is it a waste of your money unless the children go to University? Education can be beneficial to people in their everyday life, it can stop them getting ripped off by banks, by tradespeople, it can help them decide who to vote for in elections,… Then there are your tradespeople, they may not go on to university but they require a school education to go on to develop a trade.

More to the point, if all the school kids went to university who would do the manual labour, who would clean the streets, who would become good quality tradespeople?

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58

peddler

@Jay – When the fees go up I will find the money to keep sending my children to school, I will do everything I can to make sure they receive the BEST education. This is my choice as a parent. It has nothing to do with being wealthy but it has everything to do with putting my childrens education top of my priority list.

You will still have a problem with this even though I am still subsidising your childrens education.

I still wish to see scholl league tables, that is my choice.

We will never agree on this subject so lets just leave it. No need for name calling or childish behaviour.

@ Adrian – The fact is that those paying for their childrens education APPARENTLY DO value it more, hence thats why they are paying for it. Non fee paying parents will only start to value it when their taxes go up to cover any shortfalls.

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60

B.Grimm

‘but those peeps will end up doing manual labour.
they won’t get to uni with that grade.
so he’s wasting his time and our money.’

Brian, just because a child doesn’t speak English as their first language doesn’t mean that they will ‘end up doing manual labour,’ You’re not a racist by any chance?

Every child is entitled to an equal opportunity of education. To deny a child an education because you don’t think they will get high grades in the final exam is simply unthinkable.

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62

Pip Clement

I would argue that trying to give all children at least a basic proficiency in the English language and an ability to do arithmetic and basic mathematics is a must.
Some people on here seem to take an almost caste view of society where the scribes are educated and the rest are left in darkness.

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64

brian cant

Grimm,
You said it was an achievement to get grades E or F at GCSE English.
yeah, that really sets you up for law and medicine
only people i come across in everyday life with such numptiness are states members.

you do well in life by finding something that interests you and working hard at it. not sure how what you do fits into that.

if a portugeuse lad can learn to love pessoa he’ll come around to milton in time.

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66

roger phlegm

Adrian (63): “I had a states infant and junior school education and I learnt very little.”

We had noticed but thanks for confirming.

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68

Adrian

roger I went to a private school for my secondary education where I learnt a lot more and even got some passes in the exams I sat. Should have added that bit in my previous post, so as to stop the clever dicks making comments I suppose, nevermind.

Yes my poor grammar and writing skills are down to a states education, sorry bout that.

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70

Jane

As a teacher who has worked in both states and fee paying sectors I am more able to speak on this matter than most. Utter rubbish about better teachers in private schools, in fact I think you need to be better in states schools to cope!

Brian Cant- you are obviously clueless on the subject and are not worth listening to.

I totally understand parents sending their children to private schools though. There is far less disruption, a much more pleasant environment for all. Teachers can teach in these schools, not just sort out social problems.

Leah, it is not to do with primary schools starting young or not. Latest research proves how important play is. Children learn everything through play and this is a well known fact. How you ever watched and listened to children play for more than 5 minutes? I find it fascinating.

Adrian, I do believe private school education does so well because of greater parental interest. As they have to pay parents seem to care so much more, then again that is also why they are paying in the first place. There is just such a different culture of morals and expectations in the private sector.

Dont attack parents for paying for their childs education. All they want is the best start in life for their child, surely something all parents should want!

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72

brian cant

“I totally understand parents sending their children to private schools though. There is far less disruption, a much more pleasant environment for all. Teachers can teach in these schools, not just sort out social problems.”

You say I am clueless but then you agree with me. Middle classes expected to pay for breeders and shirkers then told there’s nothing left for them.

How much education do you need to be able to subscribe to sky sports and claim benefit anyway?

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