‘Ozouf must go’ call
Thursday 25th November 2010, 3:00PM GMT.
Deputy Geoff Southern addresses the crowd at Fort Regent last night Picture: JON GUEGAN (01101526)
THERE were calls for the Treasury Minister to be sacked last night amid claims that he lied to Islanders about raising the rate of GST.
Senator Philip Ozouf came under heavy fire from all sides at last night’s protest rally at Fort Regent, organised by the union Unite, and a petition is now circulating to get him removed from office.
The minister, who recently went back on a promise to the States not to bring a proposal to increase GST, was branded ‘Pinocchio’ and posters bearing his face on the body of the cartoon character, complete with long nose, were placed around the hall.
Around 180 people turned out for the rally – far fewer than were expected and well short of the 1,000 who attended the last protest against GST. However, the crowd remained defiant and many expressed their anger and frustration at the proposed cuts and the current state of Jersey’s political system.
• Read full reports on the rally in today’s JEP
Read the full story in the Jersey Evening Post. Click here for subscription details. Individual editions are also available online.
Travel
To, from and around the Island
Airport Arrivals/Departures
Harbours Arrivals/Departures
Bus Information/Timetables
JOIN US ON...
Facebook and Twitter
Follow us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
Got a story? Get in touch
KIT 4 CLUBS
Win a share of £10,000
2012 is the year of the London Olympics and to celebrate this great event the Jersey Evening Post, in association with sponsors Ogier is giving all sporting clubs a chance to win a share of £10,000.
This is Jersey
Jersey Evening Post
Useful links
If anybody should go its Geoff Southern. This is the man that wants to give pay increases to States Members and use the rainy day fund whilst we have almost 1300 people unemployed.
Report abuse
While I certainly do not agree with Phil Ozoufs proposed handling of the economy it is very interesting that the union and left wing element of the states attracted so little support.!
Report abuse
since when does a meeting of 180 people complaining constitute a newsworthy event?
Report abuse
Who came up with the posters and slogans ???
Report abuse
If we sacked every minister who told lies there’d be none left.
Looks like the head in sand part was a disappointment, are people finally getting it that something has to give, or is Corbel falling out of favour.
Report abuse
Dear oh dear, it looks like Southern has finally lost it. And whose childish idea was it for the stupid posters? You know this little group of non finance believers is getting more and more like ‘Monty’ Python.
Report abuse
180!!! So that will be Southern and his cronies along with some members of Unite. In other words no one from the public. Sounds like they’ve got 820 flyers spare. Anyone for a flyer…. Anyone..?
Report abuse
I’m no great fan of the JDA but please JEP don’t take the populace for complete idiots.
Your photograph on the inside pages shows at least 275 people not 180 as you claim on the front page. Why would you want to play this rally down by 30% are you supporting a particular view here?
Report abuse
180 people…I do not think anyone will be quaking in theri boots.
By the photo it looks like Inspector ‘Blakey’ from on ths buses was the guest entertainer…could be an alternative career when Geoff is not re-elected!
Report abuse
If only 180 people attended last night then Philip has nothing to worry about.
Report abuse
180 people. About the same number who voted for Geoff in the recent senatorial election.
Report abuse
What no-one seems to have picked up on is that the proposed GST increase by Senator Ozouf is in fact a 66% increase in percentage terms. Ozouf should seek immediate professional accountancy help.
Report abuse
Bunch of 180 loosers -
Report abuse
Well coming from a Deputy who in the June by-elections found out that the Island didn’t need him, this really takes the biscuit.
Report abuse
In tonight’s paper it quotes a union man from the UK who flew over to this event saying the “islanders should be ashamed of themselves” for allowing the island to get it this wrong and the union saying we need change.
Yet he then says Jersey “is one the richest islands in the world” So surely we are getting it right here. We don’t have huge government debt like the rest of Europe and we have a high standard of living and low crime and good free health care and the best schools in the UK.
I would suggest we are getting it right and the union and their pathetic turnout of 160 should realise they are wrong and shut up and let Ozouf get on with the good job he is doing
Report abuse
About bloody time too…! The States of Jersey is in a desperate way, which is being made 100 x worse by this meddling bunch of incompetents. I and hundreds of others have had our businesses decimated by many of the idiotic and self-serving decisions i.e. (GST, parking removal, and on, and on, and on) that these completely out of touch politicians make on a daily basis. Yet they still expect us to deliver in a recession and pay higher taxes, higher GST, higher school fees, higher rates, higher utility bills, higher Social Security, higher parking charges, etc… All because the States can’t or more importantly won’t control their spending… Meanwhile the banks pay less than ever before…?!!!!! What PLANET, what UNIVERSE are they on…?!!!!
Report abuse
I am sad I couldn’t make it…… Apparently they introduced Ted Vibert’s new poodle ‘Monty’.
Report abuse
Well, I think the turn out of 180 says it all! I’m rather curious as to which election Unite stood in? I certainly don’t recall ever puting an “X” in a box next to the name “Unite”! I appreciate unions have a role to play for their member but I don’t like it when unions try to hi-jack politics. GST has NOTHING to do with union matters! Particularly insulting when a member of Unite from the UK stands up and berates the people of Jersey (as per the full JEP article).
It seems once again that the far left have come up with much slamming of “the establishment” without actually coming up with any ideas as to how to balance the books apart from their usual shouts of “tax the rich and the banks” whilst Anne Southern cries out about how the economic downturn is not our fault so why should we pay for it. Such short sightedness and inability to join the dots is shocking from someone who is a teacher.
I’m not going to jump up and down and say Ozouf is wonderful but name a single finance minister in all of Europe (if not the world) who is popular right now? I can bet the Irish finance minister is not one of them! Governments around the western world are trying to save their countries from bankruptcy with far worse cuts to services or tax hikes than we are going to suffer. I’m not saying “lets be grateful” but we have to be realistic.
Report abuse
180 people? channel online are reporting that 400 showed up?
clarification for this please folks?
Report abuse
But don’t you all lie……..
Report abuse
While it has ben dificult to avoid – he should have known this and not promised something that he couldn’t deliver. GST was always going to go up – everyone knew that. Lying about it to keep a job is ridiculous though.
I guess most people, especially those who backed Ozouf, are upset that they beleived it.
In an ideal world people’s expectations would be managed better and in turn this would merit public support. Unfortunately people will back anyone who says that they’ll do all they can to stop GST rises – even if they can’t.
Report abuse
Dear Deputy Geoff Southern thank you for your call for Senator Philip Ozouf to go! Better still will you lead by example and resign too, the people of Jersey want neither of you.
Report abuse
Only 180 people attended? I’m not surprised that the island has these jokers running the show. If so few people rock up for this event, then how many will turn out to vote??? As Basil Fawlty once said, Why do we bother?
Report abuse
“I am sad I couldn’t make it…… Apparently they introduced Ted Vibert’s new poodle ‘Monty’.”
PMSL !!!!
It just about sums them all up!!!
Report abuse
Blue Fairey :- “Now, remember, Pinocchio, be a good boy, and always let your conscience be your guide and remember a lie keeps growing and growing until it’s as plain as the nose on your face”.
Report abuse
@Basil
I thought the posters were apt, nice to see a bit of humour is these dark cold times !
Report abuse
It is about time that Southern and the rest of the morons that side with him were removed from the states, the only problem is that unemployment would go up and we would have to give them benefit as these idiots couldn’t get a job in the real world!
Report abuse
Someone can’t count then because BBC Radio and people who attended reckoned on 500 attendees!
That would have been 501 except I could not get there, and that despite Southern being a speaker.
However, I do agree Ozouf should go. We can’t have politicians who renage on their promises can we. That said it would leave very few in the ‘Big House’!
Report abuse
So who does not lie, or else deliver the odd bit of incorrect information !
Even if he is wanted out, the fact is no matter how many signatures are gained to request him out of the States, the only way is to ”Vote with your feet” and dont cross his box during the next elections – Plan and simple so get out to the polling stations when his time comes up for re-election !
Report abuse
Southern and Tadier… There are two politicians that were there last night who are clearly not worth what they are paid for. A politician lied! Big deal, they ALL do!
Report abuse
Big issue made of only 180 people turning up, yet when Stuart Syvret had a rally at the town hall no news was made of it although the hall was full.Selective reporting as usual by the JEP and both television news channels.
Report abuse
I don’t know if Unite have the guts to take action. I do know the GMB didn’t when Jersey Telecom executed their staff… Unions are a waste of time & the turnout clearly shows it… and by the way I think Ozouf is a joke !
Report abuse
Election pledges mean nothing to many on here. Obviously they are happy to be lied to, more fool them I say. Maybe when they get bled more and more they might come to their sense? I doubt it. As per normal the rich get looked after from what I can see.
As far as I am concerned the sooner this person is gone the better. As per not realising things would be so bad, this is cobblers as far as I am concerned. He was told of this at the elections but waved these concerns away. Says a lot as far as I am concerned.
tom h your last paragraph made me laugh!
Report abuse
Your country needs Anne and Geoff Southern !!
HELP -
Report abuse
Odd. Radio Jersey reported 500 in attendance as did a caller to the phone in today.
According to BBC Jersey it was 400.
JEP say 180.
One has to wonder at what time the various journalists turned up to perform a head count.
Report abuse
Geoff Southern is my deputy and I didn’t vote for him and won’t in the future. What planet is he on and the Unite people. They may strike and loose a days pay but don’t they realise Mr Corbel won’t – they pay his wages! Geoff Southern won’t either! The Island will come to a halt and then everyone will end up paying for it. Times are hard for everyone, next year I don’t know if I will have a job so the Unite workers are no different I have a mortgage, children and bills as well. I am not getting a pay rise again this year. But Deputy Southern is entitled to a £800 rise – how insulting.
Do we want to bury our heads and end up like Ireland or should we deal with the problem.
Geoff Southern and Montford Tadier do not deserve their seat. This is school boy bullying. I don’t know Philip Ozouf but it’s really childish. Geoff and Monty for goodness sake GROW UP and help this Island rather than pull it apart – could you do any better?
Report abuse
if it had been at a better time then mor would have been there . wends night at 18.00 what a joke .
Report abuse
Citizen X (14) “hundreds of others have had our businesses decimated by many of the idiotic and self-serving decisions i.e. (GST, parking removal, and on, and on, and on) that these completely out of touch politicians make on a daily basis. Yet they still expect us to deliver in a recession and pay higher taxes, higher GST, higher school fees, higher rates, higher utility bills, higher Social Security, higher parking charges, etc… All because the States can’t or more importantly won’t control their spending… ”
I totally agree with Citizen’s description of the effect that the current States of Jersey’s decisions have had on everyone, especially small businesses, but there is absolutely no way that I would entrust our collective futures to Geoff Southern or the unions – especially Unite (Corbel).
Report abuse
Attendance was so poor cos people realised JDA had hijacked meeting
Can’t wait till elections to see how many votes xxxx Ted will muster
Report abuse
Dear Geoff,
For the complete Fuhrer look the ‘tache needs to come back!
Report abuse
And Unite wonder about political apathy! Are you surprised that the people are apathetic when all they get are lies in the election promises?
Report abuse
it seems the other 820 people have realised the reality of the situation jersey’s finances are in…..
Report abuse
is it me or does he look like a small german corporal!
Report abuse
The treasurer likes the sound of his own voice ! at the end of the day the chief minister should take the blame and resign.
Report abuse
No 39: Racist! What has this to do with Germans?
Report abuse
Ozouf lies. Even the JEP lies. I was there and there were at least 350 people there. Channel TV and spotlight reported 400! Why the discrepancy?
Report abuse
Sarcastic comments from the ‘Thatcherites’. 180 or 18000 the principal is the important point. Politicians lying in Jersey, no one seems to mind going by these comments, they would rather rubbish Geoff Southern for TRYING to stand up for the ORDINARY working man. Not some j catagory upstart that has not been here ten months never mind ten years,employed in the finance industry.
Report abuse
When Southern stood against Syvret for the Senatorial seat many thousands called for him to resign first. Just another example of Deputy Southern, like all good socialists, failing to lead by example.
Report abuse
Bikers: Brilliant!!!
Southern is the one who will go before Ozouf.
Southern is the Trotskyist and Trots! Has no solution, other than tax! tax! tax!
To be bedfellows with the likes of Unite is purely hysterical. They are an anachronism, holding onto minimal power and declining in relevance as the clocks tick.
Ed Milliband will never be PM because the vast majority of people can’t stand what these Unions do, and how they cause problems with our lives when it comes to strikes (teachers / British Airways etc).
Fair enough when it is about health and safety, but NOT when the rest of society is going through pains, and Unions continue to threaten strikes – which is just as bad as the strikes themselves.
These political groups are the economic terrorists, and shoudl be outlawed!
Report abuse
#38 And anyone with half a brain knows that raising taxes won’t solve the problem UNLESS the States learn how to control their spending! I suspect rather than what you say the 820 people have given up due to hearing lies, lies and more lies.
Who knew it was on either? I discovered a poster for it 3 hours AFTER it had started, and no-one I’ve spoken to had realised it was on either.
Report abuse
The problem is that whereas Unions aim to do good, they tend to be taken over by extreme left wing militants like Corbel who are only interested in destroying everything they see in order to have power. That is why so many of the people they are supposed to represent do not want to be seen in public at a Union meeting.
The ranting of people like Corbel and Southern (both Geoff and his sidekick Annie) do not do the Unions any favours.
What I cannot understand is that if Geoff knew the cameras would be there, why did he not put his teeth in before he left home.
Report abuse
I am no fan of Geoff Southern but I cannot believe some of the posters on here who accept Pinocchiozouf’s lies with a shrug and a glib “they all do it, so what”. Surely what we should expect from our politicians is honesty and we should not accept anything less.
In any event, it must be remembered what Pinocchiozouf is lying about and how much his lies are costing each and every one of us.
Firstly. He is reneging on his GST election promise, citing a lack of vision as the reason. This is not acceptable. We were all aware, when the promise was made, that the worldwide economic downturn was in progress. Banks had already collapsed by the time. Check out back copies of local and international newspapers. Read what commentators were saying at the time. He is now saying that no-one could have seen what was coming. That is blatantly untrue so he was lying to us then and now or else he was completely and utterly incompetent.
Secondly, we must look at why GST was put in place in the first place; to fill the black hole caused directly by 0/10. Pinocchiozouf now denies this and blames ‘public spending’ as the cause of the black hole. However on 21st October 2008 the JEP reported -
“Treasury Minister Terry Le Sueur has tabled plans for £650m worth of taxes…
It is also the first budget to include a full year’s GST takings, and the last before the zero-ten corporate tax reforms which will create a tax ‘black hole’ of £86m.”
So he is lying about why there is a black hole, which was predicted as a consequence of this unfair tax regime; or else he is incompetent and unfit to be in charge of the Treasury.
Finally, he is saying that 0/10 will be found to be perfectly fine by the EU, subject to a few minor tweaks. It is strange that the Guernsey States website takes a wholly different view on this when it reports:-
“November, 23rd, 2010, The Policy Council confirms that it has received confirmation that, at its most recent meeting (19th November, 2010), the EU Code of Conduct on Business Taxation (‘Code Group’) agreed with unanimity that the zero/10 corporate tax regimes have harmful effects. It is understood that, whilst the formal assessment process has not technically been concluded, the expectation is that the Crown Dependencies will be required to introduce revised corporate tax regimes.”
So is Pinocchiozouf lying again or is he simply incompetent and unfit for his role?
These lies are costing us all a fortune and he wants us to pay more to dig him out of the black hole he finds himself in.
Report abuse
Geoff, Connex are looking to recruit more Inspectors so forget politics as your day job and apply, they need people like you to keep the Bus Drivers and timetables correct
Report abuse
At the moment I am living abroad for some months but still taking an interest in events at home, regrettably history will again repeat itself no matter how many protest or rally’s there are the States will do as they want, it is very rare that they take any notice of joe public the people who put them in office. As far as our government is concerned it is take take take and will fall on deaf ears, they give nothing in return. There are ways of increasing Island revenue without raising GST and removal of our tax breaks, but the Government are too intimidated to upset those who should be paying more by way of taxes.
Report abuse
I cannot believe the coverage the JEP gave to this small left wing demonstration.
At this rate Jersey will have no reputable politicians wanting to stand for government.
Report abuse
I have just shouted “Southern must go!” in my garden. My wife was there, as were 2 cats.
Can I be on today’s front page? I’ll send in a picture of me looking deranged if that helps.
Report abuse
Oh, can people stop saying Pinocchiozouf?
It’s a bit like “Red Ed” in the UK.
It hasn’t caught on and makes you sound like a bit of plonker.
Report abuse
I told you so
Report abuse
I thought we were an island not a country ?
Report abuse
Deputy Southern is a joke and only backs the grubby unions for their votes at election time. The union guy who came over to Jersey for this meeting said he sent out 6,000 flyers to union members and yet look at the turnout. Most union members I know think Corbel is a disgrace. It is politicians like Southern and Tadier that have pushed states spending out of control.
Ozouf’s biggest problem is he won’t stand up to the civil servants.
Report abuse
Southern is a complete waste of space and a joke of a politician – why oh why does he keep getting re-elected???
Report abuse
57…Pinocchiozouf….you ask for it not to be mentioned saying it hasn’t caught on….? hello…why would you need to ask if it hadn’t..in fact I think Pinocchiozouf is going to stick…Folk will be referring to Pinocchiozouf in greater numbers…spurred on in part by your good self it seems.it has a certain Ring to it don’t you think.
Report abuse
“can people stop saying Pinocchiozouf?”
If the cap fits…
It has a ring to it. A ring of truth.
Report abuse
Can’t wait for election time! I will not vote for anyone who accepts the £800 pay rise. Before raising GST get rid of the highly over paid Bill Ogley (what does he do any way!) and reduce the salary of that position and a few more by £100,000 should save a mint! Simples!
Report abuse
@49
Ha, cry me a river Real Toothacher, along with the rest of society!
Its ace working for the States, I earn… Well, I get paid an absolute fortune for very little, 2 months off a year and all the sick leave I can manage!
Can’t sack me, make me redundant and I get in excess of 100K and then its bye bye Jersey hello early retirement!
Keep smiling and working on that ulcer!
Report abuse
“It is politicians like Southern and Tadier that have pushed states spending out of control.”
no not really – they have had no say in anything. They are powerless. The ‘out of control’ projects have all been started and voted in by Ozouf, Terry and the COM.
Report abuse
#63 It doesn’t scan very well though
Anyway, Ozouf must stay, I get the feeling Bridget wouldn’t cope if he went.
Report abuse
I won,t be standing down says the arrogant one.
now he is he talking about making food and heating exempt from GST and putting the GST up to 6% on all other goods.
methinks people power has a lot to do with this.
When we all stand up together and be counted we get the results we want
Report abuse
Bella 68 – Why not just cut out GST altogether – As all forms of taxation are just a means by which do-gooders like Ozouf and the rest of the CoM use to take Monies from the rich to pay for services used by the poor – like public hospitals, welfare etc. The peasants will soon get the message and move on to Countries such as the UK who tax their citizens at 50% – have 20% GST are prepared to borrow billions. Let’s face it if the Island was not burdened with so many ungrateful have-nots we could probably even reduce income tax to 10% with a massive surplus.
Report abuse
” bella
Posted November 27, 2010 at 1:31 pm
I won,t be standing down says the arrogant one.
now he is he talking about making food and heating exempt from GST and putting the GST up to 6% on all other goods.
methinks people power has a lot to do with this.”
Methinks it more likely to be a desperate act of self-preservation by Ozouf, a man who’s now watching his political career go down the drain with increasing rapidity.
Ozouf, take your exemptions and stuff them where the proverbial sun don’t shine. A bigger favour to the people of Jersey would be your resignation.
Report abuse
69
He’s fooling no-one.
I agree we should be fighting to get rid of GST altogether,but can’t see him doing that.
Now they are on a good thing and are not going to let it go.
They knew that from the start and are hellbent on screwing every penny they can out of us
Report abuse
So Southern wants to scrap 0-10 and increase corporation tax. Even with the trouble Ireland are in they are refusing to raise corporation tax.
Report abuse
Is there any other jurisdictions in the world where the locals and the less well off are taxed more than the rich and foreign companies:
Wealthy 11K pay a secretive minimum % tax rate.
Locals and other residents 20%
Non local companies 0%
Local companies 20%
GST paid by all except finance companies.
As an employee you pay 6% social security unless you earn over £3500 per month then it is capped.
An ex Chief Minister was once infamously overheard accusing Syvret of trying to ‘shaft Jersey internationlly’
I think its more of a case of Ozouf trying to ‘shaft us locally’.
Report abuse
70 methinks so too.
He isn’t doing himself any favours if he thinks we are that easy to brainwash.
He knows folk are getting really angry now and have had enough of the whole set up with those in power.
Now even saying we could land up like Ireland if we don’t act———-good cop-out,but not even close.
Actually we would be better by following Ireland by demos against government for lying to the public.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1127/economy.html
Report abuse
#56 Roger – brilliant! (but can you manage to look THAT deranged?)
Report abuse
Looking at the comments and the attendance of this meeting I think the majority of voters do not care for JDA/Time 4 Change style politics. The figures speak for themselves. Philip O has a very difficult job in the toughest times to date, so States Members should be brain storming and doing what these people are doing and sideline bickering for cheap popularity votes.
Report abuse
john,
local companies don’t pay 20% tax. they pay 0% tax. the whole point of 0/10 is that local and non-local companies need to be treated the same.
it’s not exactly complex.
Report abuse
Sen. Ozouf created this mess, he will be pleased to see the recession, it’s gets him out of his and Le Sueur’s mess that they created with their insane zero ten tax, now middle Jersey must pick the pieces of their incompetence ( not to mention the incinerator loss off £14 M ). He is rather fond of creating messes and then trying to mend them, e.g. 2 % on GST, Whoops did he say he wouldn’t do that in his manifesto. Now he wants amendments so he can increase this to 6 %. He will only stop when it is like VAT. which I remember started life as 3 %. They fail to see both sides of the coin, what one tax payer sees as entirely as waste of money, e.g. needles to drug users, others will say it has to protected at all cost. to stop the spread of AIDS, drug users do not just have sex in their own peer group but in the wider community, do we want another Edinburgh here, the aids capital of Europe. So who do we trust to mange the books and create an economic and socially just society. The current establishment or a new bright and respected individual with a social conscience. Le Francis Le Gresley take over this treasury post. With 20 years in the banking and robust social thinking from his time at CAB, he can lead the Island out of this mess and he is not adverse to standing against an ideology that others swallow without thinking.
Report abuse
Neil Kinnock summed it up during the 1985 election, how does the left appeal to the majority of people who are actually well off ?
By approaching the man with a house, two cars and who takes two nice holidays a year, and saying to him, “Brother I feel your pain, let me and my party take you out of this poverty”
To make any progress Southern needs to stop sounding like a throw back to the Labour movement of the 1970s and start appealing to the middle ground. Thankfully he doesn’t get that !!!
Report abuse
Senator Ozouf Treasury minister, being advised by consultants from everywhere, got it wrong (yet again) by telling us in the JEP that 0/10 just needed a bit of tweeking but was on the verge of being passed by the EU committee investigating it.
Now we are told it is badly broken and does not comply. The good news is that GST was brought in to make up the short fall lost by 0/10.
The foreign companies are to be taxed again meaning we have gone full circle. Clearly we can scrap GST as it will be redundant.
I suggest Senator Ozouf resign as the heading of this article if he tries to have his cake and eat it as the islanders income is fast getting eaten up by higher taxes to make up for incompetent naive Ministers who listen to wrong advice given by people with strong self interest issues.
Davey West.
Report abuse
The impact to Jersey’s economcy from the worldwide recession has been minor compared to the rest of the world.
Don’t see why Ozouf is to blame for the worldwide recession – don’t think it was him.
At least Ozouf is taking decisive action to deal with the slight impact it has here (relative to other countries). Imagine if Southern were in charge – hilarious if it wouldn’t been so dangerous.
Ozouf – you have my vote, even if I don’t agree with all yoru proposals, someone has to make decisions, and don’t see anyone else at the front of the line.
Report abuse
#66 out of control
“no not really – they have had no say in anything. They are powerless. The ‘out of control’ projects have all been started and voted in by Ozouf, Terry and the COM.”
1. The CoM are (statutorily) a minority. Projects are started and voted in by a majority of the States. The only thing the ‘powerless’ Members need do, in each situation, is persuade the other ‘powerless’ Members.
2. Politicians like Southern and Tadier (and Duhamel, Le Claire, the ex-JDA people, etc) don’t do much that’s positive, it’s true. But they’re very good at creating delay on all projects, to ensure that the inevitable decision always costs more.
Report abuse
82 – Duhamel!
I heard him on the radio a few months ago seriously suggesting that kangoo jumps (i.e. big springs on your shoes) could be a way to reduce congestion.
And you are very right – the first rule of politics is that if you have no arguments you can always just delay things.
Report abuse
@#82 “Politicians like Southern and Tadier (and Duhamel, Le Claire, the ex-JDA people, etc) don’t do much that’s positive”
Even more applicable to the Constables who…er…what do they do?
Oh yes, that’s it…they vote en bloc with the Council of Muppets (well 11 of them are in the bag), whatever the proposition. Hardly an independent thought amongst them and much less in terms of political work.
We could do without them in the States, but the establishment grip would be severely weakened. At the moment the Muppets get their way with their 20 Muppet and assistant Muppet votes and the 11 bankers.
In return the Muppets and their assistants won’t vote for the removal of the Constables.
Nice little arrangement isn’t it.
Report abuse
Who caused this recession/slump/dog`s breakfast?
Was it Socialists or Capitalists? Globalised major companies have more effective power than governments do – that`s why governments are struggling.
Isn`t it ironic that so much of what we buy comes from a Communist country (China) – you couldn`t make it up.
Wake up
Report abuse
It’s ALL about overspending and hiring…we have allowed the civil service to hire their own pyramid structures…a self fulfilling prophecy whose only outcome is bankruptcy….Oh and Taxing the ordinary person into submission….just before he goes west too.
Report abuse
#82 and #83
You’ve both hit the nail on the head. These back benchers are never going to get into power and they know it. It’s too safe for them to come up with ridiculous proposals wasting everyone’s time whilst sniping at those like Ozouf who have to make real and tough decisions that will affect everyone in Jersey, even if they’re not to everyones liking. The situation is a farce and either deputies should be held more accountable for their actions or there should be a lot less of them.
Report abuse
83 – brilliant. What is so scary is that there are people out there who actually vote them in (truthseeker and the rag bag of vocal minorities). Thankfully they are exactly that, as the majority woudl never be so insane, bigoted, and foolish.
Report abuse
84 Muppet -
There ceratinly was a period during which the Connétables were inclined to vote as a bloc, but those days are long gone. Present-day States voting records simply don’t support your argument (which in any case sounds suspiciously like, “I don’t enjoy being in a minority, and I’d like to correct that sad situation by getting rid of everyone who I think might disagree with my views”).
As for the Connétables’ level of ‘political work’, they’re damned, in your book, if they do, and damned if they don’t: If they take on responsibilities within the States (on top of their responsibility to run the Parish and provide effective representation to their parishioners) they get slated for not having an ‘adequate mandate’ – and if they don’t, you say they’re ineffective/lazy.
Imho, if only most of the Deputies and Senators put in as much effort, and had as much contact with the people, as the Connétables do!
Report abuse
I suggest that Jerry takes a look at the States Assembly website.
http://www.statesassembly.gov.je/frame.asp
The Constables do indeed vote in a block on most issues.
Constables are not political as a rule, most of them arise from the honorary police or the other bits of the parish bureaucracy.
Sadly this makes them easily influenced by the politically inclined members.
Report abuse
Red Dawn it was the capitalists who caused this.
joker you are wrong the sorts you slag are the ones who stand in the corner of the poorer in society, unlike Ozouf and co.
RT right wing “get on or burn” comments.
Who is the Real Fool who voted for people who can’t honour their promises. Says a lot.
Capitalism is doomed to failure as it rewards greed and deception. It promotes the I above all else including stabbing others in the back, whilst trying to climb the greasy poll known as success.
It needs an infinite system to function in as it is all about more profit, more customers and more resources. Look at the environment to see the results of capitalism over the last 200 years.
Jerry everyone knows which way the connetables will vote inevitably 10-2, 11-1 or 12-0. The establishment can rely on them to tow the party line when it matters.
I would get rid of the connetables from the states they are parish facing and this is their remit. It would also break up the states into a proper government and opposition parliament not a defacto one party state. I would also get rid of the nearly 10% of members who are unelected. What is the point of the dean being in the states for example?
As per Ozouf another 40% reduction in support in 3 years time and he’s out. Roll on 3 years is what I say. GST is bound to put a hole in his electorial support, people hate this tax. How anyone can vote for people who break their promises is beyond me. Obviously some don’t care about these practices judging from some of the comments on here.
Report abuse
#90 & 91
Pip, you can suggest what you like, but your suggestion is unnecessary in this instance – I follow the States website, and States proceedings, very closely, always have done – but I try to do so objectively, even though the quality of debate is so often so poor;
and Adrian – things that ‘everyone knows’ are frequently wrong. If being in the majority was a guarantee of correctness, you wouldn’t be complaining about the States’ decisions!
Report abuse
Don’t worry Jerry I will suggest what I like!
1) I suggest that you are Real Truthseeker under another name. anyone that doubts me should compare your style with Real Truthseeker’s. They should note the curiously syncopated sentences and the strange use of punctuation.
2) I am far to busy to do a detailed analysis of the Constables’ votes but anyone who wants to do a quick tour through will realise that the votes break in a predictable block way.
3) They can come to their own opinions from their own research. I believe that men and women should find their own way to the truth!
Report abuse
Jerry, on piddling little issues the constables often split ranks but on any matter of importance Adrian’s description of how they vote is accurate. Simon Crowcroft is the noatble exception as a free thinker.
That is why I say it’s a ‘nice arrangement’. It is in the interests of the establishment and the constables that they vote on important issues the same way. That way power is maintained.
Your assumption of my motives is also incorrect. I simply see the situation as un-democratic and open to abuse.
Your summary of the constables ‘political work’ is odd. They are supposed to be politicians for gods sake! They are supposed to be working politically. You clearly don’t live in my parish. The ‘father’ of my parish would be prosecuted for neglect if he were my real dad!
Imho the deputies can adequately represent their parishes on a political level and the constables on a parochial level. They should not be in the states.
But they wouldn’t vote for that would they? And their power-sharing cartel members in the Council of Muppets will ensure they are safe.
Scratch my back anyone?
Report abuse
How can the union UNITE accuse others of lying when they have just announced that they are planning to ruin peoples’ Christmases by taking of mass “sickies” – in other words lying to BA, their employer, that they are ill.
Report abuse
Adrian
Ozouf understands that finance pays for the poor to have benefits. Without finance the gap between the rich and the poor would simply change to the poor and the dying.
We all have our opinions about capitalism but I’m not sure they’re relevant here because this is the system the majority prefer to live by. That said, we all know you hate capitalism because you are work shy, you admitted it yourself on another recent post.
Report abuse
Joker – Well Put. The likes of Adrian aka truthseeker ata Pip Clement are all the same. Down with capitalism! Even though it pays for their lifestyle!
Hypocrisy!
Report abuse
I am not truthseeker or Adrian and my politics are quite different to theirs.
I am not against capitalism although I do have a liberal left perspective.
Unlike you I do not post under a number of names as you have claimed to do.
Quite honestly you seem to have lost the argument and have descended from lies and misinformation to smears and insults.
Report abuse
‘I suggest that you are Real Truthseeker under another name. anyone that doubts me should compare your style with Real Truthseeker’s.’
Are you sure, Pip? I haven’t seen a single ‘abuto’from Jerry.
Report abuse
joker you make me laugh. If you and others are unable to see the writing on the wall that is your problem. But make no mistake things will change.
RT why haven’t you posted under your bean bag, jersey bean aliases for a while? Have you given up on these prefering to use new ones?
Capitalism uses resources up like there is no tomorrow. It depends on peddling rubbish to the masses for the vast majority of the time. It is failing, anyone who can’t see this doesn’t understand the repercussions of subprime and other such investment practices.
What props up capitalism? Consumerism and finance. They fuel the fire. It is unsustainable, people can keep their heads
in the sand as long as they like but it won’t make it go away. Refer to Soylent Green to see the end result.
Ozouf doesn’t understand what he is doing, because if he did he wouldn’t be participating in the fiscal policies he is engaged in.
As far as I am concerned he is pandering to the rich and big business and is worried they might throw their rattle out of the pram, if they are asked to shoulder more of the burden.
I don’t believe they all would.
Work shy where did you get that from? I have just pointed out that work and money will be useless when there is no where to live, due to a degraded environment and very little food and water. Chuck overpopulation into the mix and you have an explosive situation.
Also how many would work for a living if they didn’t have to? Most would prefer to do what they want, when they want, and not to have to work for others who often couldn’t give a damn about them or their personal needs. They can also be jettisoned for a variety of reasons when it suits the owners.
The facts are the vast majority are forced to work to survive in the modern world. There is no option but to work. It is economic slavery as opposed to slavery in my honest opinion.
The rich don’t have this issue as they are beyond it. They may however dabble in it if they so wish, however they have the option not to bother unlike the vast majority.
They also make a profit from those they employ in their companies, the products they consume, and the houses over their heads. Yes work is good isn’t it?
Report abuse
AGREED, he and the rest of the Muppet Show MUST go. We have been ruled by dictators for years without even knowing it! Will the Americans send a task force to help us or leave us to burn just like the Zimbabweans. If there is hole to plug then lets call it a Rainy Day, isn’t there some money left over in that pot? Next year is election day and don’t think by taking GST off food will re-elect greedy dictatorship back into power. GST should never ever have been voted in by any sensible logical human being in this very small island!
Report abuse
#97 RT Surely even you can see that Capitalism, when taken to the extreme that it has now been taken, just doesn’t work. It falls into the same category as many other political and economic ‘isms’, great in theory, great in moderation, not so great in practice and dire when taken to extremes.
It’s not capitalism itself that is bad, it’s the people who couldn’t just be happy with what they had and wanted more and more (and I’m not talking about your average person on the street, it was done at their expense).
Report abuse
Look, of course the current brand of capitalism doesn’t work and will fail in the short-term.
But that is a global issue. Jersey is a small island. We are like a mouse running around under a table picking up the crumbs that fall down. All we can do is pick up the crumbs that fall down, try to store many of them as we can and be ready to move to underneath another table if the crumbs stop falling.
What we cannot do is say that we are going to stop picking up the crumbs because we don’t think they are going to fall down for much longer. Not unless we have another source of crumbs. And we don’t. Nor does anyone – other than me of course – have any ideas of what the other source of crumbs may be.
Report abuse
Leah – At least you have some coherent arguments, unlike the extremists like Adrian and Pip Clement and Truthseeker – aka all the same person!
I agree, extreme capitalism is not suitable for a working society, and therefore government intervention is necessary at times, and for short bursts, it shoudl not become a standard expectation, which is where it stands today. If it were handled properly earlier, we woudl have a much more proactive and therefore safer society, however government intervention has become too far. Pip and truthseeker all want this extreme left position which is unworkable.
I welcome at last a sensible debate!
Report abuse
Ozouf will have little choice but go or be unelected next time unless he heeds the people….the people wish to be represented and do not want to be seen as a managerial problem to be solved by corporate strategies…we want to be heard we want you to stand by the manifestos you were elected by us to carry out..people have a life they are not companies or share dividends.we are people with lives and dreams for our kids..who do not wish to struggle financially through ther main earning years just to end up broke or having to sell all you slogged your guts out for simply because politicians lie and allow profligacy by the state.
Report abuse
#93 Pip – I wonder if RT is as amused as I am, by the suggestion that he and I are the same person. Even though I have read many of RT’s posts (and disagreed with the majority of them)I have made no study of his/her style, since this site is a comment forum, not a writing competition; but in my own posts, the ‘strange use of punctuation’ to which you refer is more generally known as ‘correct written English’. No two academics will agree on all grammatical issues all of the time – but if you are interested in improving the accuracy of your accusations, I suggest you take a look at Fowler’s ‘English Usage’, available online and in all good bookshops.
#94 Muppet – I said nothing about your motives, for the very good reason that I know nothing of them. All I said was that your argument, @84, sounded like wanting to remove from politics anyone who might disagree with you – which, to me, it does. I apologise, however, if you have perceived an insult where none was intended.
Report abuse
103-donald pond.
what are the other source of crumbs?
Report abuse
john,
legalise drugs and become a centre for organically produced cannabis, set up ayahuasca clinics for men facing mid life crisis, euthanasia clinics for those who want to avoid switzerland, legalise prostitution for the stag holiday market, full gay marriages etc
we should be aiming to cash in on social liberalism in the way we cashed in on freedom of capital movement in the 1960s
bridge to far for the methodists mind
Report abuse
“Pip, you can suggest what you like, but your suggestion is unnecessary in this instance – I follow the States website, and States proceedings, very closely, always have done – but I try to do so objectively, even though the quality of debate is so often so poor;
and Adrian – things that ‘everyone knows’ are frequently wrong. If being in the majority was a guarantee of correctness, you wouldn’t be complaining about the States’ decisions!”
Obviously you have not read Fowler or you have no interest in his prescriptions for correct English.
The use of hyphens as a punctuation device to run related ideas together is deprecated, also a comma followed by and. Then you have two related ideas expressed in part sentences and you finish what seems to be a paragraph with a semicolon.
Your next paragraph / sentence begins with a lower case ‘and’.
Your English is not as poor as Real Truthseeker’s so I was probably wrong in thinking that you are one and the same and it is not a writing contest but your stream of consciousness style that is similar to his can be hard to read.
Report abuse
Donald Pond
Given that it took circa 30 years of debating the ethics of a casino, I can’t see any of those happening in the immediate future.
Whilst I do concur with your philosophy on the legalisation of narcotics and the fact that we’ve blatantly lost the war on narcotics, if we ever did become one of the first places to do so then I fear we’d rapidly become inundated with drugs tourists, think of Amsterdam.
Report abuse
‘legalise prostitution for the stag holiday market’
There’s an idea donald. I could become a multi millionairess after all. Now where did I put that Vim? Might have to spruce up the bathroom!
Report abuse
Pip #109 You really are showing yourself up – but then, that is the inevitable penalty you must expect to pay for posing as an expert on every subject.
A hyphen isn’t the same thing as a dash (and I never said I agreed with Fowler on all matters); it is correct to follow a semi-colon with a lower-case letter (in contrast to your own post at 93, where you do this after a full stop); it is correct to link related ideas with semi-colons; and, since following a comma with ‘and’ was good enough for Shakespeare and Virginia Woolf, it’s good enough for me.
I’m afraid that, having had your absurd accusation about Real Truthseeker rebutted, you are just being petty, when an apology would have been in order.
Report abuse
donald “…bridge…”
I knew you would come round to my way of thinking.
donald “Organically grown cannabis” etc.
Are you trying to replicate the last days of Rome?
donald “What we cannot do is say that we are going to stop picking up the crumbs because we don’t think they are going to fall down for much longer.”
Does one carry on along a line of futility, or does one change direction?
Do you keep pecking away like a frenzied chicken at a wire fence because the seed is on the other side out of reach?
Or act like the fox who sees the chicken pecking away behind the fence and has the nowse to know to walk around the fence and eat the chicken?
I find Jerry to be in the same vein as RT.
RT why aren’t you posting under bean bag or big bean anymore?
Report abuse
truthseeker@105
You said
….the people wish to be represented and do not want to be seen as a managerial problem
I am afraid your sentiments are correct but to late.
When user pays was voted in, we became managed to take more money from us. Before that, we were served.
Report abuse
One other thing we could do is ensure our financial services regulator gets its act together. Currently expert funds, which have a published 3 day approval process, are taking 5-6 weeks to approve. As a result all new funds business is going to Guernsey. That is a fact – speak to any lawyer at one of the pan-Island firms to confirm it.
New funds generate lawyer, banking, accountancy and administration fees, all well paid jobs that bring in tax revenues. We are losing this work to Guernsey because of a simple failure of the regulator to operate at the same level as the GFSC.
Those are the type of “easy wins” that we are missing and that are directly leading to our budget deficit.
Report abuse
Pip what are you on about?? I also follow quite closely the votes and am not sure which planet you are on! I don’t see 12 constables all voting the same way!
I think it’s best to divide it by the ones that are actually good and do seem to understand what’s going on and the others that seem to not have a clue – on either side though there are constables, deputies and senators!
Report abuse
Simon Crowcroft does not always vote with the CoM but there is almost always a good solid block of 9 – 11 Constables on side.
Out of the three types of member they are politically the most homogenous and conservative with a small c.
There are lots of ways of dividing up the States, probably almost as many as there are States members!
How about political members eg Ozouf, Breckon, le Herrisier, et al versus the ones who just seem to be there for no clear reason at all!
Report abuse
donald pond
I believe growers in California are recently doing very well out of legally growing cannabis for medecinal purposes.
And what about a casino.Not sure if this is true or not,but i think it’s Monaco that doesn’t have any income tax at all because of the massive profits produced at their Casino.We have enough bookies in the island so it can’t be argued against on moral or religious grounds.Casino Regent anyone?
Report abuse
Sara when was the last time more than 6 connetables voted against the establishment?
More than 6 means a swing to one side or the other. 6 all means they are neutral.
7-5 to the establisment
= +2 votes for them.
8-4 = +4
9-3 = +6
10-2= +8
11-1= +10
12-0= +12
Show me one issue when a majority were against the establishment line.
Most votes are 10-2, 11-1, 12-0 to the establishment. Not exactly neutral are they?
This one reason why I would have them removed as they consistently sleew the vote towards the establishment, meaning we have a defacto one party state over here.
Report abuse
#108 Totally disagree with attracting the stag market, they (and the hen lot) are a market everyone else is trying to dispose of since they cause so much trouble.
Also got to disagree with the drug legalisation if it were only to happen in Jersey. Jersey is much smaller than the Netherlands and even the Netherlands is now considering putting some restrictions on their current law to stop the drug tourists. Drug tourists would bring in money but as we are so much smaller than the Netherlands I figure if they are struggling to cope with the numbers then we would be much worse off. Cannabis needs to be legalised across many countries or not at all.
Report abuse
Good man that Ozouf, stopped the states wasting 2.3 million on Dandara’s homes ! Sooner he goes the better after the incinerator and his zero ten. ! He has single handedly lost the entire black hole money.
Report abuse
Adrian – how can you argue for a one party State? Just because a number of people make the same thought out sensible decision, doesn’t make it a one party State?
So by definition you want it 50/50, and therefore no decision ever get’s made.
Like a court, or any government, by having such solid majorities results in much better Government.
Your only problem is that don’t vote the way you would like. Quite frankly, we are lucky they don’t when I read your/truthseeker/Pip Clements comments.
They are sensible decision makers, not an Establishment, and not with ulterior motives.
Report abuse
#119
Love the ready reckoner – kind of you to come to the assistance of all those who really struggle with concepts like 8 minus 4, or the really tricky 7 minus 5.
“This one reason why I would have them removed as they consistently sleew the vote towards the establishment” Principled as ever: If they regularly agree with the CoM, we must change the constitution to make sure they can’t be in there, voting. If only people elsewhere had also thought of this – we could make sure there was no effective democratic government anywhere in the world!
Report abuse
There is a good argument for abolishing the present dog’s breakfast of Senators, Deputies and Constables and replacing them with one class of member elected from roughly equal sized constituencies.
But it would get rid of a lot of the good old boys, probably swing the house more towards the centre and produce a lot more democratically representative house.
Guess what, the States members and a lot of the right wing defenders of democracy on here do not want that solution!
Report abuse
#124
Funny, that – I never considered that defending democracy was especially a right-wing prerogative. But I suppose, if you define right-wing as ‘anyone who doesn’t agree with me’, it’s the sort of thing that can become true, for some people.
A single class of States member, each elected from roughly the same size of constituency, is certainly one workable model. Like any other model, it has potential disadvantages as well as advantages – one obvious potential disadvantage being that an individual elector would only very rarely have the opportunity to vote in the election of the person who would become Minister within any given Department. In the same vein, an elector who is currently able to influence the election of at least 14 Members (12 Senators, 1 Connétable, at least 1 Deputy) would, under this scheme, only be able to influence the election of a single candidate (unless, of course, there were multiple seats available within each constituency; in which case – how many constituencies, how many seats in each?)
On the other hand, elections for a single class of Member would be simpler to manage, and might conceivably engage the voters more. I can also see potential, perhaps, for reducing the impact of people who look good for three brief weeks on the Senatorial hustings trail, but fail to live up to expectations during the years following.
Whether this proposal would necessarily change the political-belief complexion of the House, seems more open to doubt. After all, by and large, the same sort of people would be voting, and the same sort of people would be candidates. Perhaps you are assuming that no-one interested in being Connétable would ever be a candidate for election to such a chamber – but since a good many Connétables, over the years, have also held a seat as Deputy or Senator, this seems unlikely. What seems perhaps a little more likely, is that all elections would become dominated by local, rather than Island-wide, issues – which would itself have advantages and disadvantages.
To my mind, more important than the Senator/Deputy/Connétable question, is the matter of whether voters are discerning with their own vote, and respectful of the votes of others. Whichever electoral system is in operation, it would be unreasonable, a couple of years down the line, to want to change it again, solely on the grounds that, “Too many of the Members elected by this system have been supporting the incumbent government”.
Report abuse
Adrian #91&100
Excellent postings! When I wrote 85 I hoped it would ignite some debate on capitalism and was pleased that it did even when views were divergent from my own.
I find it amusing to read people calling Corbel and Southern “Left Wing Extremists ” and Trotskyists. What a joke! Lightweights.
New Labour abolished Clause 4 which related to their theoretical commitment to public ownership of the means of production. Then with a certain amount of irony they were forced to nationalise many of the banks which saved their subsidiaries here. Similar with the Irish Banks.
So Socialist measures to the rescue.
As for believing this is a democracy ask yourself this question – how can the Constable of St Mary (small electorate) have the same voting power as the Constable of St Helier (large electorate – yes I know he has just been elected without being opposed but hopefully in 10 months time someone will stop him pedestrianising the whole of the town).
Goodnight and good luck
Report abuse