Sir Philip’s absolutely right
Wednesday 22nd December 2010, 3:00PM GMT.
From Trevor Green
I WOULD like to congratulate the former Bailiff Sir Philip Bailhache for the views he expressed concerning the report submitted by Lord Carswell, in your excellent Saturday Interview (JEP, 18 December).
Sir Philip is one hundred percent correct in his analysis of the report. The loss of the Bailiff in his dual role would be catastrophic in many ways to the prosperity of the Island.
As to the siren voice of the Deputy of St Martin (a Jerseyman to boot) – if he does not like the way we do things, then he knows the answer.
To support Sir Philip what better way than the excellent sketch by Al Thomas. Yes, all you people should remember: ‘We won the battle in 1066 and long may we retain our traditions and be proud to celebrate them the Jersey Way.’
Travel
To, from and around the Island
Airport Arrivals/Departures
Harbours Arrivals/Departures
Bus Information/Timetables
JOIN US ON...
Facebook and Twitter
Follow us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
Got a story? Get in touch
KIT 4 CLUBS
Win a share of £10,000
2012 is the year of the London Olympics and to celebrate this great event the Jersey Evening Post, in association with sponsors Ogier is giving all sporting clubs a chance to win a share of £10,000.
This is Jersey
Jersey Evening Post
Useful links
How is this important in 2011?
There are hundreds out of work and the middle class and poor are just about surviving.
This pomposity from those who have no idea about the real world sickens me to the core.
Report abuse
Proud to support the Jersey way, is that to support Judgements we have had over the period of office/s held by Bailhache/s the numerous cases of abuse not brought to trial due alleged lack of evidence, seven prosecution’s out of over 160 claims of abuse by individuals the vast majority no prosecutions brought. The appalling liberation speech by Bailhache putting the reputation of our Island above the terrible abuse suffered by so many in the care of Jersey institution’s or R Holland allowed to join the Honorary police only to re-offend and abuse a girl with learning difficulty’s and most recently his ridiculous claim that we should be independent how disloyal to Her Majesty the Queen I wait with bated breath for SIR P Bailhache to give up his Knighthood, but I suspect I will have a long wait O yes please lets keep the Jersey way!
Report abuse
Pompous being the operative word as the writer is most certainly of that ilk.
Report abuse
it is quite simple really. If you take a look at the world today it is nothing short of a huge mess. who is responsible? we all are, but there are those more responsible than others.
Report abuse
Trevor, Best “Tongue in Cheek” letter that I have read in years,You stay as you were in 1066.
Report abuse
Graham #1
This issue is just as important in 2011 as in any year to come. It will become a bone of contention for the island if we don’t address it as many feel that you cannot have a modern democracy where a single individual (the Bailiff) is head of both the legislature and the judiciary as it can represent a monstrous conflict of interest. The high levels of unemployment and financial pain are symptoms of the economic downturn and are unrelated.
Philip Bailhache does himself no favours in the interview by repeatedly comparing the role of Bailiff (and by extension himself as an ex-Bailiff) to the UK royal family.
The Carswell report needs to be given the serious attention it deserves.
Report abuse
5 Agree Carswell s important.
Was commenting more on the fact protecting the outdated Bailiff is more important to some than caring for those falling on hard times.
Report abuse
Quote – “As to the siren voice of the Deputy of St Martin (a Jerseyman to boot) – if he does not like the way we do things, then he knows the answer.”
Yes Trevor Green, if Jerseyman do not like the way that Jerseyman do things, Jerseyman change things. Democracy in action!
Remember that our late Duke, William the Bastard, had a low born mother. No shame in that, many if not all the royal households kept concubines; but that was the 11th Century. We will not speculate as to the cause of death of William’s late uncle, the Duke, who died at the ripe old age of 20.
Yes, we won in 1066 and subjected the Anglo-Saxons, but do we really want to go back to all that? We Vikings were an unwholesome bunch.
Green? Anglo-Saxon serf? Where is Mr Green coming from?
Report abuse
Mr Green fails to mention that he stood against Deputy Hill in the last election and was unsuccessful in his quest for office.
Perhaps his letter should address that fact and then the wider audience would have been in a position to judge the impartialty or otherwise of his somewhat churlish and misinformed comment.
I’m not sure what a “siren voice” is, but it does seem to me that any writer who uses such a term is suffering from “pompous author” syndrome.
Report abuse
Trevor Green is misinformed
It’s clearly plain to say
He cites the unelected role
As just the Jersey way
His comments they are such
That no thought do they suggest
He merely wants to hark
back to French Conquest
He says that Bobby Hill
Should know just where to go
If he dares to tell
What Carswell’s findings show
But what he doesn’t say
In this rather bitter spree
Is that he tried and failed
To be our Deputy
So although he has the right
To grovel to Sir Phil
He should be man to say
That he lost the day to Hill
Report abuse
Quote – “As to the siren voice of the Deputy of St Martin (a Jersey-man to boot) – if he does not like the way we do things, then he knows the answer.”
One of a very small group of honest politician with integrity in the States of Jersey.
The Bailahce brothers have been bad for Jersey please, please, separate the powers of of the Bailiff it is a disgrace that with the political bias that he shows so often in his decision making
Read more: http://www.thisisjersey.com/2010/12/22/sir-philips-absolutely-right/#ixzz19GGdYzdJ
Report abuse
Daily Express Saturday May 17th 2008
Commons speaker Michael Martin was under pressure to quit last night after an attempt to keep MPs’ expenses secret failed in the high court.
Judges ruled that a detailed breakdown of MPs’ spending on their accommodation and other allowances must be made public.
My point is not about how Mr Martin acted he obviously had the right to go to court, also lets be clear, I am not insinuating in any way that the Bailiff has done anything wrong, I am just giving an example of what could happen.
Should our speaker ( the Bailiff ) want to carry on some kind of legal action as Mr Martin did. Who is going to Judge our top Judge sorry speaker, sorry judge? sorry speaker, Or have I got this wrong ?
Self explanitory and borrowed from another blog.
Mr Green is clearly wrong and cannot agree with Lord Carswell or does not understand the word conflict in a modern democracy.
Tim South.
Report abuse
“Mr Green is clearly wrong and cannot agree with Lord Carswell or does not understand the word conflict in a modern democracy.”
Yes, there is a conflict in the Bailiff being both a judge and the president of the States.
There is also a conflict, in that the Island can afford either to employ 8 nurses or spend the same amount to an old establishment figure to fulfil one of the role the Bailiff currently carries out.
I’d sooner have the Bailiff in a theoretical conflict but have 8 nurses doing practical work. Others would like to have less nurses but an additional establishment figure on £200k. Fair enough, may dust down my CV.
Report abuse
A bit garbled that. Not a theoretical conflict but real. A states member as speaker wouldnt get 200 grand so not good argument.
Report abuse
donald pond (13) but an additional establishment figure on £200k.
Donald, nobody has suggested a speaker of the States camber would get an additional £200 K. The speaker would be an elected member, like all other elected members. If the speaker, in case of a tied vote, were to vote for the status quo nothing would change there either. Sorry you have lost the argument there twice over there.
The Governor, poor chap (person) would still sit through the itemiable debates and report to the Queen (King).
Well said Kit (14).
Report abuse
But if a states member was to become speaker, wouldn’t that disenfranchise those who voted for him? We’re already down to 8 senators, so we wouldn’t want a senator to be speaker. Which leaves the deputies, none of whom have a mandate to run a bath in their own home.
It will end up being a senior lawyer on 200k. It always does.
Report abuse
Like PB has a glittering track record of looking after the public interest:
http://www.jerseyinperil.com
The 3B’s – Bailhache, Birt and Bailhache will put paid to 800 years of “tradition” by way of their combined actions.
Report abuse
Mr Green …please have a word with yourself..!you may well wish to ingratiate yourself with the Baillache bros, why not write to them direct and please do not inflict this Jurassic brown nosing upon us,this sychophantic drivel is what has been at the heart of the rot in Jersey…we are breaking away from all that fawning tosh and finally the young shoots of real change are appearing….bring it on and let other real grown ups in other locations see that we too are learning our lessons albeit slowly.
Report abuse
John #11:
Separate the roles and you are almost certain to get more of the same, who’d be 1st in-line for the second role?
Generally:
The issue is being centered on whether or not one person should do two roles. I don’t have an issue with that. What counts is how well the role/s are caried-out, having two individuals rather than one doesn’t assure probity.
Bailiff is fundamentally the adapted role of governor; the representative of the Monarch/Duke, which is just what the (Lieutenant) Governor is too. We owe the peculiarity to our past so the reality is that we have two governors, one of which has two roles.
As one other respondent pointed out here recently, the judiciary needs to reflect the mores of our society. Time past, the Jurats also sat in the States which, in some respects, was a more fluent arrangement than that of today.
If the Bailiff does not remain involved with the Assembly then there will be a disconnect between it and the judiciary. Far better, certainly as an intermediate, would be to install a means of appeal – maybe PPC.
Just like the other crown officers, there’s now no established route of appeal or complaint.
Report abuse
Sorry Donald @16 and other posts.
Your argument holds no water at all. First point is that justice and democracy has a price, and if it means Mr IZatt and Mr Ogley who cost jersey more than five hundred thousand pounds a year in wages, being paid off to fund more nurses and saying goodbye to the due rolls of the Bailiff so be it. Taxes do not need to be increased, savings need to be made.
As with the UK parliment, a speaker could be found within the ranks,voted in by both sides and sacked if found to be biased.In the assembly if I am correct has a lawyer present in the form of the attorney general, and the greffe is also versed in law.
Zoro is being blunt, but makes some good and valid points.
Davey West
Report abuse
Garbled thinking at 16. Speaker could seek public franchise. Suggesting that it might be lawyer because it always is is silly, just ensure that rules say that it can’t be. States member speaker wouldnt get 200 grand so not good argument. No grovelling to Bailhache please, it’s unhealthy and demeaning and unsavoury.
Report abuse
donald appears not to see anything wrong with nearly 10% unelected to office. What is the necessity of the Dean for example?
No comment on the pro-establishment connetables there donald, what use are they, besides the obvious?
All connetables should be removed as well as the 5 unelected members and replaced with 1 speaker. Elect the rest on an island wide mandate.
This would reduce costs.
With a speaker it would be interesting to see whether they would end up with a knighthood. If they did I am sure this would be a great incentive to take on the role even if it wasn’t too well paid.
Report abuse
Adrian,
I don’t see the point of the Dean. But to say “10% unelected to office” is simply daft: they can’t vote, they rarely speak.
I would be happy with a states made up of 12 senators and nobody else. For an island this size 12 is enough. But it was the “opposition” who just voted to reduce the number of senators.
But we go back to the issue which you and joyce cannot grasp, which is who acts as a speaker? What role does the speaker have: to ensure the States acts legally, to ensure it runs efficiently and to be non-political.
How exactly would an election for a non-political role work? “Vote for me, I’ll never speak on any issues and will use my casting vote to maintain the status quo?”. It is a technical role, not a political one. Or do the States elect a speaker from the elected members? If they do, then some voters will have elected someone on the basis of their policies who then says they won’t be doing anything poliical. It just doesn’t work.
And as for Joyce suggesting the rules prevent lawyers from filling what is a quasi legal role, well, if ever you wanted to see garbled thinking, there it is. Only then for Adrian to suggest that if you get a knighthood that would attract people to stand. Well, call be old fashioned, but I thought only the most reactionary “establishment” figures gave 2 figs about baubles from the queen.
I’ve met both of the Bailhaches and dealt with them both professionally and don’t much like them: I think Philip in particular has taken too active a role in promoting silly hobby horses (French contract law, a national gallery etc) which most people don’t care much about. I think it looks ridiculous to appoint 2 brothers to such senior roles, although I think everyone agrees that Philip was a stand out candidate.
But the debate is about the role, not the people involved. My point is simple: I think Jersey has major problems and this isn’t one of them.
HDLG seems to have brought all this to a head. The crux of HDLG is that the level of arrests and successful prosecutions was the same as has been the case in similar investigations in the UK. There is no evidence of any cover up, or that the “establishment” acted in any way improperly. The result was unsatisfactory, but these things always are. The world is made up entirely of shades of grey, not black and white. We are running a budget deficit, if we have to spend money let it be on nurses and teachers rather than creating new roles in an already bloated sates chamber.
Report abuse
donald pond (16) It will end up being a senior lawyer on 200k. It always does.
Donald, the speaker would be an elected member with a casting vote. Nobody would be disenfranchised. Many assemblies have a speaker, who is not a lawyer; why does Jersey need a lawyer as a speaker? Just because Donald says so?
A Privy Councillor has advised that the Bailiff relinquish the his post. Those whom the Crown appoint the Crown can also dismiss. Sip Philip should bow out graceful and accept change.
On this Adrian is the voice of a true democrat, whatever his political colours may be.
Report abuse
There is a body albeit dwindling of old Dinosaurs,who by supporting the old structure of power have become very rich indeed just look at some of the fancy cars parked at certain times outside the Freemasons hall,Peasants with the temerity to say”‘scuse me Guv what’s occuring” are dismissed as troublemaking Herberts who ought to be confined to the Tower,Well the Internet has changed the rules which is why they are frantically trying to gain control over it as it is the truth that scares them,asking questions above ones station and all that is social cancer and needs eradicating…the truth does that .look at all the furore about Wiki Leaks.trumping up a few charges is a real easy thing to do if you have the power.Truth dilutes power which is why it is in such short supply here,freedom of information law et al .look how the feet have been dragged on these important issues and the shredders must have been working through the nights.now about the church,I am not attacking peoples inalienable beliefs,but where is the church,why do their leaders keep schtum about the public iniquities and subsequent Hard times inflicted upon the ordinary people,easy to be indifferent when tucked up by the fire in the manse with a regular income coming in..if ever people needed true spiritual guidance and inspiration it is in these hard time…not a peep….I challege you to come out and speak up for the flock you claim to love and care for.”Don’t say anything” is something I have heard too many times for one lifetime.it causes oppression and misery John F Kennedy said “The very word secrecy is repugnant in a free and open society,we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret Oaths,and to secret proceedings……now the likes of TLS and many others have long supported a system that fed them and gave them perceived importance.private jet to the Paris boat show…your money peeps,not his,and where is their morality…and backbone…all sadly compromised,and so they are understandably reluctant to change…but change they must as the people have had enough, Zoro expects vitriol on this one….funny how the comfort zone is distressed by the truth. Z
Report abuse
Don Pond says as follows:
I don’t see the point of the Dean. But to say “10% unelected to office” is simply daft: they can’t vote, they rarely speak.
Response; maybe they can’t vote but they do retain some significant political influence. Only a newcomer to the island would think otherwise.
I would be happy with a states made up of 12 senators and nobody else. For an island this size 12 is enough. But it was the “opposition” who just voted to reduce the number of senators.
Response; I don’t think so. What “opposition”?
But we go back to the issue which you and joyce cannot grasp, which is who acts as a speaker? What role does the speaker have: to ensure the States acts legally, to ensure it runs efficiently and to be non-political.
Response: a speaker can be elected from among the States members. It is not rocket science. And the idea that the States should be run on “non-political” lines as stated is a clear contradiction in terms.
How exactly would an election for a non-political role work? “Vote for me, I’ll never speak on any issues and will use my casting vote to maintain the status quo?”. It is a technical role, not a political one. Or do the States elect a speaker from the elected members? If they do, then some voters will have elected someone on the basis of their policies who then says they won’t be doing anything poliical. It just doesn’t work.
Response: Just because no mechanism for electing or appointing a speaker is not yet in place does not support the apparent argument that a mechanism cannot be devised.
And as for Joyce suggesting the rules prevent lawyers from filling what is a quasi legal role, well, if ever you wanted to see garbled thinking, there it is. Only then for Adrian to suggest that if you get a knighthood that would attract people to stand. Well, call be old fashioned, but I thought only the most reactionary “establishment” figures gave 2 figs about baubles from the queen.
Response: Your original posts show garbled thinking, as does your present assertion that the speaker has a “quasi legal role”. It is, equally, garbled thinking to suggest that rules cannot be put in place to ensure the democratic credentials of a prospective speaker. A knighthood is still something to which public officials and senior barristers aspire. It is naïve to suggest that no-one is influenced by such a thing when planning a career. The automatic knighthood for the Bailiff should be abolished in any event and hopefully already has been.
I’ve met both of the Bailhaches and dealt with them both professionally and don’t much like them: I think Philip in particular has taken too active a role in promoting silly hobby horses (French contract law, a national gallery etc) which most people don’t care much about. I think it looks ridiculous to appoint 2 brothers to such senior roles, although I think everyone agrees that Philip was a stand out candidate.
Response: French contract law is, to a large extent, the law of Jersey. It is not a “silly hobby horse”. If you don’t like it, then I am sure that the English bar beckons! And Sir Philip was not a “stand out candidate”, he was the only applicant. the present Bailiff was also allowed to accede to an office which was not advertised or otherwise thrown open to competitors (see Carswell panel evidence) The office when Sir Philip took up post became available in the wake of the Vernon Tomes affair. Matters were arranged in such a way that Mr Tomes would not take the top job. As you have previously said, you were not living in Jersey at that time and your knowledge of the relevant events is slight. The occupation by two brothers of the respective offices of Attorney and Chief Justice did the Island no credit at all. It was always known in various circles that the brothers would reach high office and one suspects that deals were covertly done many years ago.
Report abuse
donald the opposition hold no power so you are wrong there. Since they have no power no blame can be attatched to them for the failings of the government.
donald you don’t know much about human nature do you? People love to be biged up. A knighthood gives one perceived status and a sense of pomp and importance.
Many would fall for these sort of trinkets as you call then. I myself think it needs to be confined to the dustbin of history.
The John Cleese, 2 Ronnies sketch shows this in all its glory.
Here’s an interesting piece for you, and no it isn’t a piece by Lenin or Trotsky incase you think it might be communistic propoganda.
“I cannot accept your canon that we are to judge Pope and King unlike other men with a favourable presumption that they did no wrong. If there is any presumption, it is the other way, against the holders of power, increasing as the power increases. Historic responsibility has to make up for the want of legal responsibility. Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority: still more when you superadd the tendency or certainty of corruption by full authority. There is no worse heresy than the fact that the office sanctifies the holder of it.”
Taken from:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dalberg-Acton,_1st_Baron_Acton
Report abuse
Rita,
While I disagree with most of what you say, there is one point I would take you up on:
“French contract law is, to a large extent, the law of Jersey.”
That was the case until the early 20th century, but until the judgment in Selby v Romeril (was in 1992, I forget), few Jersey lawyers believed that French law (or rather, the law of Normandy as it was at the time Jersey separated from Normandy in 1215 but believed to be best reflected by the writings of Pothier) was the law of Jersey. It was understood until 1992 that Jersey law was basically the same as UK contract law.
Now Sir Philip is agitating for a contract law to be written based on a French model. My point is simple: whatever Jersey is or should be, you cannot seek to impose a tradition that has been lost. The huge uncertainty that the Bailiff created has led to very few people using Jersey as the governing law of any contract, because we simply do not know what Jersey law is.
If you believe something as important as contract law should be left to 3 or 4 interested lawyers digging through textbooks from the 16th and 17th centuries and arguing that what applied to horse manure (the case of du Heume, I recall) is somehow a guide to modern commerce, then fine. But such a decision shows to me how out of touch with reality the Bailiff was.
Report abuse
Don Pond; yet more garbled thinking. You say:
“That was the case until the early 20th century, but until the judgment in Selby v Romeril (was in 1992, I forget), few Jersey lawyers believed that French law (or rather, the law of Normandy as it was at the time Jersey separated from Normandy in 1215 but believed to be best reflected by the writings of Pothier) was the law of Jersey. It was understood until 1992 that Jersey law was basically the same as UK contract law.
Response: The judgment was in 1996 and reaffirmed the Jersey (not French but similar) position. Confusion had occurred in the 1970s due to legal practitioners being confused themselves and the Royal Court failing to bring them into line. The Bailhache judgment was therefore long overdue.
It has never been understood that Jersey law is “basically the same as UK contract law”. Goodness help us if you, as an Advocate think that!
Now Sir Philip is agitating for a contract law to be written based on a French model. My point is simple: whatever Jersey is or should be, you cannot seek to impose a tradition that has been lost. The huge uncertainty that the Bailiff created has led to very few people using Jersey as the governing law of any contract, because we simply do not know what Jersey law is.
Response: Those who know their subject will say that there is no uncertainty. I certainly don’t think so, certainly not any more or less than might be the position at English case law. If you don’t know what the law is, start with the Law Commission paper, then read the relevant cases and revert to Nicolle’s book for sources. There are also numerous articles in the Jersey Law Review. Far from being lost, the rightful law is very much alive, I am afraid! French law is, furthermore, codifed; a pretty good reason to be keen on it, I would say, particularly if certainty is the aim.
If you believe something as important as contract law should be left to 3 or 4 interested lawyers digging through textbooks from the 16th and 17th centuries and arguing that what applied to horse manure (the case of du Heume, I recall) is somehow a guide to modern commerce, then fine. But such a decision shows to me how out of touch with reality the Bailiff was.
Response: If what you say is true, then Jersey has a weak bar indeed. Fortunately, I don’t believe a word of it. One would not pass the advocates’ exams without a rudimentary grasp of Jersey contract law. So there’s the “3 or 4 lawyers” bit scotched. And the law can be found in numerous books, old and new. You use the example of horse manure in order to try and inject some ridicule against the subject matter but you will know that the subject matter of the contract is largely unimportant and that you therefore become concerned with the irrelevant, a sign of a poor lawyer if there were ever on. Finally, if you are not educated or inclined to research the law, then the best of luck to your clients!
Let’s return to the topic in hand now.
Report abuse
If the States elect a speaker than he/she will be by default “establishment”. If the voting public elect a speaker than this will be some politically motivated individual with a predetermined agenda which they will pursue on the basis of the votes of a small minority of those that can be bothered to vote – they probably won’t even know where to sit or where the toilets are. Or we get some independent UK expert who will be paid umpteen million. But whoever gets the job as soon as they make their first decision they will in the eyes of most of the conspiracy theorists become an “establishment” clone – but our taxes will be higher and services cut to pay for the new department.
Report abuse