Youth homelessness reaches record level
Monday 24th January 2011, 3:00PM GMT.
Housing Minister Sean Power
THERE has been a dramatic rise in the number of young people using the Island’s homeless shelters, the JEP can reveal.
According to the Shelter Trust, which runs Jersey’s three homeless shelters, a quarter of all users are now under the age of 25 – a worrying trend unprecedented in recent years.
Housing Minister Sean Power believes the rise, while it can be partly blamed on the recession, is down to a lack of help for young people who have been in care or have been pushed out by their families without any life skills.
He now wants States’ departments to work together on an alternative way of preparing young adults for life on their own that doesn’t involve homeless shelters.
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Jersey Association for youth and friendship is a good alternate, I lived there myself on and off whilst a teen, but there is a bit of an issue when mixing young offenders with genuinely vulnerable young adults who can be easily led and suffer at the hands of heroin addicts and other types (sometimes more privileged in the way of family and friends support) who do take advantage of this facility and make it difficult for youngsters even many years later.
I still bump onto the odd ex junkie now and my they really do still have chips on their shoulders even with their ‘qualifications’ and states jobs.
Am lucky I have learnt my lessons well and wouldn’t go near a majority of people I came across back then there is some really nasty unappreciative folk around who probably haven’t helped a lot of the youngsters who have probably suffered far worse because of their selfish attitudes and not realising that some folk really are on their own and get treated as second class citizens.
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Blamed on recession pmsl.
it is to do with rents in jersey being so extortionate greedy landlords is the answer, biggest mistake ever was rent rebate it gave licence to charge what ever a landlord wished the tax payer could subsidise the rent, now that not just youngsters all age groups, cannot not afford rent they have no where else but the shelters.
also if you look at the minimum wage and the price of a 1 bed flat you will see another reason for homelessness.
look again minister from your castle in the air !!!!!
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Absolutely disgraceful!
About time this Island got its act together and did more for people down on their luck.
These are the ones who need help now,instead of trying to get money people to come here to live.
More bad publicity for Jersey when they cannot even look after its citizens.
Is there any squatters rights here?
If I was homeless I would certainly move into one of the many empty flats and take my chances.
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kids left home? can happen to the over 25′S as well, its a well and good if having a job, rents and cost of living in general , will soon devour any savings , (doubtfull if having any if fully loaded with hp payments ).
there may be others who are not showing up , as they are with other mates familys or friends.
after the job has gone they will be back home.
to be fair on sean its not his fault, there is no work for our young people, they are victims of unchecked immigration.
the family unit is creeking for some homes with the usual rising taxes in general , food ,electricity , and scant wages rises, for some,
less hours.
sadly this is a problem that will not go away and may even grow.
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@2 Noah, most of these youngsters cant even get help with states housing which, in my opinion they are more entitled to than most.
Shock horror LOCAL people with no family or support yes it has been happening for years, its rather insulting when you see how many flats houses etc are dished out to foreigners who have families (albeit not always here, but they do and regularly visit them, wonderful that they can afford to as well isn’t it?) and vice versa then go to their lovely family home which is all bought and paid for abroad and come back here and have the cheek to moan!!!!!
Am expecting some complete (foreign) idiot to start moaning or trying to defend the right of passage over here and quite frankly I don’t care, its a bit different when you have seen things from the other end of the scale. Our government needs to put our people first GOT IT?
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Vicki@5
i class youas a realist not a racist, you have the guts to say what most people think and know
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No surprise really. You have kids whose parents are so useless (usually drunk, abusive) that they get kicked out and move into the youth homes. By this point many already have their own relationship with alcohol, and they don’t have an education, so even if they can hold down a job it will be a minimum wage one. What chance do they really have of affording to live?
Some have great potential that will never be realised due to utterly hideous ‘parents’, and the States have failed these kids by not removing them from these ‘parents’ when they were little and putting them into families where they could thrive. The States (and the parents) owe these kids a lot.
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these blogs get so boring to read …. price of milk rising – blame it on the immigrants; seaweed slime on the beach – blame it on the immigrants; volcano causes disruption to island – blame it on the immigrants …… who are the people that run the Island and are making such a mess of it (except Sean Power) – Jersey locals with their small mindedness and naivety and lack of worldy knowledge; who are the landlords that charge the extortionate rents – Jersey locals; who are the landlords that let out properties which are worse than squats – Jersey locals; why does the island come to a standstill when there’s 1mm of snow – Jersey local mentality; why is the local news full of laughable rubbish because the real news is swet under the carpet – Jersey locals!!!!!!
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Youth homelessness, OAP’s turning their heating off in winter, food parcels for the unemployed …
isn’t it about time we looked at the obscene wages being paid to middle/top managers in the civil service?
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@6 Thanks Noah, am in agreement with your points also, it is a relief to see I am not the only one who thinks this way
@7 Leah I think your points are valid but not all kids are chucked out because their parents are alcoholics or useless, some parents really cant cope and have had a life full of horror themselves and it is genuinely hard for them to look after their own kids. That is also because our government continually fails its locals and tars everyone with the same brush which is not the case.
Also not all people without a home are completely oblivious as to how to look after themselves, they just don’t get the help or assistance they need or even a positive consistent source of support without being made to feel like they are not worthy of a normal happy life. I think it is imperative that Dept Power takes note that most if these youngsters have been fiercely independent from a young age and it is a lot of responsibility for any youngster to contend with. A little bit of respect for what some of these people would not go amiss it is pretty admirable how some are still alive and relatively sane considering…
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Vicki 5 – Our government needs to put our people first GOT IT?
I agree that people resident in Jersey who have consistently paid tax and social security over a significant period of time should be given priority, them and their children. Even if we say that those that have endured long enough to achieve local residential housing status are eligble.
But are you saying that the offspring of parents who have never contributed, who for years have drained the pot they have never paid into. Who have recieved social housing and accompanying benefits for themselves and the children they elected to have to further their eligibility for better social housing and increased benefit should be placed ahead of the first group?
If this is what you are saying, and my interpretation of your comment is that it is, then I view your comment as racist and inflammatory.
Withdraw benefit for ALL who take but have never given.
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The Housing Department & Income Support adds to this problem, if your child goes travelling, so therefore, not contributing to rent, they will force you to move to a smaller property & so when your child returns, obviously ‘cash strapped’ they find themselves homeless! it’s cruel & divides families. It’s all money oriented if you can afford to pay the rent on your Housing property, regardless if you are exceding your needs,they leave you alone. There are many couples still occupying properties, although their children have long left home, but because they can afford the max rent on the property, they are not challenged. On the other hand, if you are a lone parent & cannot meet the max rent, they will re-house you & so if your children ever need to return home, as they so often do, you have no room for them. The system ‘sucks’ your house is not your home, just temporary lodgings! Homeowners, your so fortunate!
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@ Vicki
You have to be locally qualified to live in the youth Hostel. Therefore the majority of ‘junkies’ (I lived there for 2 years until I had finished my GCSEs and A ‘levels) are local people. The homeless shelter is also for locally qualified residents and there is only a sub category in the emergency shelter for a small amount of nights for those who aren’t locally qualified.
Where do you get this notion that this is somehow due to ‘foreigners’? Are all the ‘foreigners’ in our A- H flats and working in our over 5 year residency jobs??? Well if they are they have served their time and have earnt their right to be. Aren’t the rules and regulation of undertakings maybe to blame here? You can’t blame people for taking what is offered to them on a plate and also what they feel they deserve. I also still come across people from my days in the hostels and damn they haven’t worked a day in their lives, they don’t believe they have too either, they have their nice 3 bedroom house (4 kids by 3 different dads) big flat screen telly and sky, and are still constantly giving out about the whole world owing them.
What the states need to do is start educating the parents of these unfortunate under 25’s. Educating our youth so it isn’t deemed acceptable to get out of school start spitting out children to get housed. At 15 I went to the states housing to say I was homeless, I was asked if I was pregnant and if not then they couldn’t help me. Fortunately I had the common sense not to go out and get pregnant but I understand why someone would, given similar circumstances. I heard about jersey association for youth and friendship through the homeless shelter, when I contacted them (I don’t know if it’s the same now) but you had to be 16! So a while on the streets and sofas it was until I had a place I called home, this place albeit was one where people overdosed outside your door when your studying for your psychology A ‘level, but a home is a home.
There are numerous people who have been in similar situations who took the pregnancy option and hey presto this IS the vicious circle and THE problem. Bad parenting leads to messed up kids the bad parents can’t handle, the kid has nothing unless there is a bun in the oven, and then they become the bad parent. This is happening all the time. I don’t blame these parents they were (in their eyes) left with no better option. I do blame our system where you will lead a more financially stable life if you take the initial easy way out.
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High housing costs and low/stagnant salaries are causing more and more – what used to be considered – middle-class families to slide into the “working poor” bracket.
It is no secret that homelessness walks just one step behind poorness. Nor, is it a secret that low-paid workers (who are forced to spend all their income on housing, food, healthcare, etc.) rarely have savings and often have debts. For these people (and their numbers are growing rapidly), misfortune (such as job loss or a long illness) means they are just one step away from the “dreaded” shelter.
Therefore, the government, after dealing with the immediate problem, must deal with its cause (for details refer to noah @2.).
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House them in all the empty flats.
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You have to have qualifications to stay in the hostel? seriously? Has this Island not heard of human rights? I ‘m surprised this is even legal….. this is the kind of nonsense that enforces a two tier society. Jersey you really need to wake up and join the real world!!! A homeless person needs help and should be given help regardless of their place of birth… It really astounds me to read some of the small minded rubbish on this forum. There is lot of people here that should hang their heads in shame!
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debatable @ 16
You could say the same thing about most civilised countries in the western world. For example, I quite fancy going to live in Australia but as I am neither rich nor have desirable qualifications I would not be allowed residence, so perhaps I should just go over there anyway and take my chances – after all, I would of course fully expect them to take care of me. And if they didn’t I could write stupid posts to ThisIsAustralia.com along the lines of, “You Australians, you need to wake up and join the real world…blah blah two tier society…blah blah small minded rubbish…I need help and it matters not where I was born” etc.
See any similarities here? Or, do you just think Jersey somehow owes all people of all nations a place to live?
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@ debatable
http://www.thisisjersey.co.uk/code/communityshowall.pl?ID=000249
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8.. Trevor you must lead a really content life and not have concerns about people around you or walk round with your nose up in the air.. arent you lucky.
11.. mulvie you just need to look at the rest of the world, the uk, the state of the nhs and where that is going, immigration, schools.. I could go on but most people are quite slow at catching on over here. Racism? Facist? Don’t make me laugh please.
13. You can take a horse to water but you cant make it drink, sorry that you were unfortunate enough to live in a different kind of ‘hostel’
And er, good for you that you studied psychology (is that relevant at all?)
Most of the girls that lived in JAYF were local and hard working with no such kind of poor me mentalities.. the odd few yes but not on the scale you speak of,and that place in particular which you stayed in was run by social services it just goes to show really doesn’t it? You have also made a really good job of discriminating others and maybe falling into the cliche of maybe not considering others properly as well as you may think you have? I really don’t think it is any of your business to be passing that kind of judgement on people or their lack of education or willingness to learn. You cant force people into doing things. You also need to realise that it isn’t just about a cycle of people having children just to get states accommodation or maybe that is what you have seen in your immediate environment beforehand? That really is a bit ignorant of you for someone who wants the whole forum to know they studied psychology??!!!!!
16. Please read properly debatable. and yes you are right there is a lot of people who really should hang their heads in shame and er no it is not this kind of issue that creates a two tier society that was done years ago with the divide between rich and poor, cheap labour and ignoring the root of problems with residents freeloading or not from abuse scandals to greedy landlords to no proper laws in place to protect islanders who maybe cannot afford lawyers et al?
Racism? don’t be so pathetic and human rights? don’t make me laugh everyone who comes over here bangs on about it and they don’t even think about how they treat others at times..if it wasnt for me etc et.. there is only so many times you can call wolf you know…old fable. (The Boy Who Cried Wolf) he soon got found out in the end he was just taking the mick and using everyone elses resources and making everyone else suffer
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how can anybody contribute into the system when there are no jobs for them ????
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last post was to mulvie
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17. Tobias I thank you for your comment on this article.. this I completely agree with you on. (Although it is really devastating what has happened to lots of people what has happened there lately) I agree with you entirely.
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give VICKIE # 13 a job at social security at the top, this is what we need, not somebody whos paid a quarter of a million a year [or whatever]who has no idea about life or peoples needs in the real world…
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#10 I take your point. Unfortunately all the girls I worked with were homeless due to alcoholic/abusive parents. I wasn’t suggesting they weren’t capable of basic things like personal care etc. what they were incapable of was the emotional maturity required to form positive relationships with the opposite sex (most were looking for love in the wrong place) and to hold down jobs. Which was a real shame because some of them were really good workers but eventually they would screw up in a way that made it impossible to keep them employed, usually due to the influence of a dodgy boyfriend or a ‘parent’ begging them for money.
It was incredibly sad to see, but you can only help so much before people have to want to help themselves.
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The Winter work programme gave real work at real pay…these could support themselves on it..but No a daft fiscal stimulous package that appears to have evaporated with little to see for it…Oh sorry an overpriced tarmac job…..there will always be some who fall between two stools due to addiction ,mental health probs etc,,,but simple economic situations can be fixed with Work….real work that gives dignity and autonomy…..these people are prime subjects to work for the drug dealers otherwise…
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Vicki 19.
Vicki, as I said in a previous post (which you seemed to have overlooked), I fully understand your feelings of exasperation at what you consider the disintegration of Jersey.
However, I’m having difficulty fathoming out just who you think should be eligible for states housing and benefits. So, I have a couple of questions for you…which I’m sure you won’t mind answering.
1. Do you believe that a teenage mother who has never worked (therefore, has never contributed to the system), daughter of parents who have never worked (idem), deserves to be housed and receive benefits simply because she has indigenous roots?
2. Do you believe that individuals who have worked regularly for years, or at least for the predetermined period (therefore, have contributed to the system) do not deserve to be housed or receive benefits simply because they lack indigenous roots?
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My sister stayed at JAYF as she lost her family home through death of my mother(not drink, drugs, abusive parents etc)
The difference between my sister and Vicki is that she doesn’t feel the world owes her a living and she has a god given right to come first in a queue because of her birth place.
She has got off her backside and worked to improve the quality of her life.
Vicki – don’t look back, look forward, stop blaming everyone else for your situation and you will find you have a lot less anger and are able to move forward.
p.s. I do have a tendency to skim posts but I actually think “jsy’s” post was agreeing with you in parts before you jumped down his/her throat.
It’s that anger issue again.
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19 Vicki – 11.. mulvie you just need to look at the rest of the world, the uk, the state of the nhs and where that is going, immigration, schools.. I could go on but most people are quite slow at catching on over here. Racism? Facist? Don’t make me laugh please.
Vicki you have comprehensively ignored my question, I’ll repeat.
Are those people ( and by proxy their offspring ) who have paid tax and social security for a period of time so great that they have achieved locally qualified status less entitled to housing and benefit than those born locally who have never worked or paid anything into the system ( or their offspring ). Original post in full at 11 for anyone who can be bothered.
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You could say the same thing about most civilised countries in the western world. For example, I quite fancy going to live in Australia but as I am neither rich nor have desirable qualifications I would not be allowed residence, so perhaps I should just go over there anyway and take my chances – after all, I would of course fully expect them to take care of me. A
See any similarities here? Or, do you just think Jersey somehow owes all people of all nations a place to live?
Tobias if you went to Australia to live (subject to getting a visa), you would not be expected to stay in lower class accommodation and face quallies etc. Once there, you have the same rights as anyone else. that is just a lazy argument. I would argue that Jersey is maybe not as civilised as you make out given the way it treats its immigrants.
Vicki ‘human rights, don’t make me laugh’ any response would be wasted on you…
Read more: http://www.thisisjersey.com/2011/01/24/youth-homelessness-reaches-record-level/#ixzz1C8oNZr8J
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27. Hilariously funny how you think anyone with a passion for social justice is angry??!!! (Funny and typical) And so have I got off my backside to improve and I have worked at least 20 hours a week since the age of 13!! difference is luvvie some of us don’t forget where we came from, or the walks of life we meet along the way. Your sister (if you cared to look at her post did not make it clear she managed to get in the JAYF she stated that she couldn’t.)
I also do not need to publicate my entire background, it seems you and your sister are justifying yourselves a lot why? Not an attack but maybe you should look a things from a broader prospective and take all circumstances into account Before making assumptions that everyone is angry? We don’t all think the world owes us something because we don’t have parental support you know and some of us do very well so sorry if you also did not read correctly either (thanks for your distorted opinion though all character building stuff.
26. Will get back to you
28. Go figure
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26. 1st question no I dont think all teenage mothers who come from a freeloading family (local or foreign) should assume that taking all the time is acceptable and fair to honest hardworking folk like myself and many others.
2nd question not at all, that is not the case, but when you know local people who are in need and cant get it then am sorry but yes thats when I do believe indigenous first sorry!!! It is ludicrous that people assume that all of us locals are on benefits or living in social housing or that we are all lazy, some of us have worked just as hard if not harder in order to improve our quality of life with minimal assistance and no social housing and no chance of ever having any ( grew up in social housing and would find it difficult to live in that kind of environment although you never know whats round the corner.)
A lot of the time it is all down to whoever screams the loudest a lot of people do automatically scream racist or facist because they deem themselves more worthy. A lot of folk also start jumping up and down when you ask locals come first also, it is another typical example of cause and effect unfortunately, where a whole manner of things have created an almost unbreakable cycle in many different forms (that is what needs to be looked at, and where my point of look after locals first was aimed.)
Being that I don’t come from a family of work shy scroungers and am not one myself I couldn’t really comment, I don’t have a great deal of time for people like that because I don’t think it is necessarily fair. Again thought thats judgmental, how do you or I know if there is a mental illness or something preventing them? Half the time that thought process could be deemed as snobbery by the not so well informed..
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Vicki
Vicki, thanks for answering. By the way, three generations of my family have lived in Jersey and, as can be expected, we have a few indigenous islanders in our “tribe”. Therefore, I know full well that not all “locals” are lazy, living in social housing and/or on benefits.
Fortunately, we, as a family, have never needed States housing, schools or benefits…but I’m very happy all of them exist. The problem is, there are a lot of people (no nation excluded) who are living in social housing and drawing benefits who shouldn’t be.
I firmly believe that only those who are truly in need and have contributed to the system (excluding the physically or mentally incapacitated and the aged) should receive assistance…regardless of their origin.
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29. Mr Nitpicker you wholly misunderstood my comment about human rights…
to add you totally contradict yourself without even realising it. Australia is the way it is because it does not operate in the same manner as Jersey i.e you have to have a visa, you have to have enough money to support yourself do you get the picture?
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Vickie you are so funny!
“Your sister (if you cared to look at her post did not make it clear she managed to get in the JAYF she stated that she couldn’t.)”
That’s not MY sister – don’t know who the poster is but he/she is probably grinning as well! LOL
“We don’t all think the world owes us something because we don’t have parental support you know and some of us do very well so sorry if you also did not read correctly either (thanks for your distorted opinion though all character building stuff.”
Calm down, read carefully – breathe!
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It’s a bit like trying to have a normal conversation with someone who doesn’t “hear” anyone else. These posts could be about putting across a point of view and listening and learning and perhaps amending your own position – not shouting so loud that you aren’t hearing, and therefore understanding anyone else.
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30 Vicki
Again no comprehensible answer, for the 3rd time my question is.
Are those people ( and by proxy their offspring ) who have paid tax and social security for a period of time so great that they have achieved locally qualified status less entitled to housing and benefit than those born locally who have never worked or paid anything into the system ( or their offspring ). Original post in full at 11 for anyone who can be bothered.
Your answer of Go figure does not address the question. The closest you get is your reply to Sue premecy where you say “I do believe indigenous first sorry!!!”
Would that be local first who have never contributed above non local who have contributed for 20 years? please expand and answer the question.
PS – does anyone else think that Vicki’s posts are borderline incomprehensible?
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Vicki ‘a passion for social justice’ errrrmmmmmmm not sure about that.
You really don’t seem to be grasping everyones points here so I’ll leave it be.
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36. Mulvie , it depends on how you ‘read’, go figure because I cant be bothered debaiting with you
37. Totally grasped, but shock horror we all have points and an opinion funny that hey?
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38 Vicki – 36. Mulvie , it depends on how you ‘read’, go figure because I cant be bothered debaiting with you
I’m not asking you to debate, I’m asking for a straight answer ( 4th attempt ). Assuming of course that you know why you hold this view, many don’t and just regurgitate the racist vitriol they’ve been force fed by their parents who likely didn’t know either.
BTW debaiting is not a word, I think you mean debating but don’t tell the spelling police.
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Vickie…..Calm down dear it’s only a…..
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This not the first time I see Vicki racist comment as she was slagging the portuguese and polish community on a previous post.
I am French, been here since 1998, had my housing qualification Today (at last…).
I ve been paying tax all along.
Received 3 cheques from social security for £125 for each of the 3 weeks i was off sick in all that time. Didn’t cover my rent by the way… So I claimed £375 (£28 per year).
How much a 16 year old pregnant local will get from social a week?
Don’t even mention human rights in Jersey as the Jersey laws do make you feel like the lowest of the low. 5 years residency, £100/week for a room, cant have kid, no pet, no friends, no smoking, no parking, electric meters, a microwave if you are lucky. The Landlord can kick you out in a week, come in you room whenever without notice, keep your deposit…
Is there any laws for people renting over here….
I don’t even know how you can be in Jersey without working. You are on basic wages, you loose your job, how long can you afford to pay your rent before you end up in the street…
Obviously people will abuse the system (local or not)and that is the same everywhere (I am not even starting on French social security.
Crack down on benefit thieves could help.
I think we are all working hard and the one to blame should be the States as I still do not understand why so much money is going in the Island and the gap between the rich and the poor is getting bigger. How is GST affecting the rich, and how does it affect us when we can’t find a thing under a pound in the supermarkets…
I still think that people working for the states have a very good salary and very good perks.
May be more than a Skate park for the kids will keep them off the streets so they don’t mix with the wrong people, takes drugs, argue and leave their parents at early age.
Take the problem at the roots… Once they are in the deep hole , it s already to late….
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A big part of the problem is that the system of Income Support in Jersey is just plain lazy and creates dependency. Young people can claim £92 per week Income Support as soon as they have left full time education and there is no impetus on them to gain employment. They have to prove that they are looking for work but it’s easy for them to jump through a couple of very minor hoops and continue getting the benefits long term. Most of this money is generally used for alcohol and cigarettes and we are now witnessing generations of families going on benefits in the island and not being encouraged, in any meaningful way, into employment. This is a very lazy solution and it is failing these young people. Why would you bother working if you can get enough money for your fags and booze for doing sweet FA?? Just another example of the poor governance that we have come to expect on this island.
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@anyone who has cited “foreigners” or “unchecked immigration” in their argument.
As Jersey has a pretty unique (and arguably enviable) position within the EU immigration is not unchecked. In fact, anyone who is a member of a full EU member country has the right to free movement and employment in Jersey. Anyone from non-EU countries undergoes a rigorous, and expensive, entry clearance system BEFORE they can undertake employment.
So, unchecked, I think not. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
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43 Deep – In fact, anyone who is a member of a full EU member country has the right to free movement and employment in Jersey. Anyone from non-EU countries undergoes a rigorous, and expensive, entry clearance system BEFORE they can undertake employment.
So, unchecked, I think not. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing
Good point, son only just over half a billion people are free to live and work in Jersey, anyone else undergoes rigourous checks. I’m pleased there are measures in place to prevent immigration from running riot.
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41 Jay
I think if you read Vicki’s posts she doesn’t consider herself racist, rather she has “a passion for social justice” – go figure!
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@43. Well you have got to feel for those with a Jersey passport then haven’t you? They don’t have the option of working anywhere in the EU, or didn’t you know that? Again very one sided….
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46 Vicki – @43. Well you have got to feel for those with a Jersey passport then haven’t you? They don’t have the option of working anywhere in the EU, or didn’t you know that? Again very one sided….
Yeh poor Jersey people, they choose not to be part of Europe and benefit massively from preferential offshore status. As a result they have had ( until recently ) full employment and as a juristiction no debt. Other European countries are massively in dbet some ( Ireland ) are falling apart and Jersey sails on regardless. But the poor locals can’t work in debt ridden Europe.
Can’t have it both ways love, you either have all the benefits listed above and remain outside of Eurpoe or join Europe and lose tax haven ( sorry offshore finance ) status.
PS – I see you are ignoring Mulvie’s question at 11, 28, 36 & 39, bit complicated is it explaining why you have a particular viewpoint.
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no 46.
Most people with jersey passposrts (about 90%)do have a right to work in the EU, the others,(who do not have an EU parent or grandparent)do not have an automatic right to work in the EU (apart from the UK) but can still apply for the appropriate permits to work in the various other EU countries, which many have done. To date, very few have been refused.
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