States reforms ‘breach basic democratic rights’
Monday 28th February 2011, 2:58PM GMT.
Advocate John Kelleher
ISLANDERS should have been consulted before the States decided to reduce the number of Senators, according to a member of the Clothier panel on political reform.
Advocate John Kelleher was part of the panel which produced the Clothier Report on the machinery of government and recommended that the number of States Members should be reduced – a belief he still maintains.
However, in a letter to the editor today, the Advocate has said that the failure of the States to consult voters on the issue has breached their ‘basic democratic rights’. He is now calling on the States to engage with Islanders on the issue.
In his letter, Advocate Kelleher said that he had followed the impact of the Clothier Report closely, but had not felt the need to comment publically until now.
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a big thankyou to john kelleher, for standing up for the electorate . what i would like to see is a list of our “basic democratic rights”
i for one am keen to be educated about this kind of thing.
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Spot on Sir,the democratic rights of the individual are constantly being rode roughshod over by this Govt it’s civil service and the underground Freemason’s brigade…..always seeking to lurk in the shadows the truth in this island seems to have the same effect on the power bases as the Daylight did for Count Dracula…sends them scurrying into the darkness,meetings held behind closed doors,cliques and subterfuge…any dissenters are told that they are radicals,or conspiracy theorists,or plain threatened….and what climate fosters all this distrust…one that puts lack of openness first then sandbags that attitude with defiant elitism….so when your deputy you voted for wants information,if his face does not fit it is withheld…so now your vote is null and void.and you are NOT being represented…so the twisted system we now have is not true democracy at all just a facsimile,which is why Clothier is like it is and ignored and why we need a complete overhaul…a citizens charter and a and Bill of rights and a one day all out election…without these safety nets in place….only the rich will benefit…we the people must have our birthrights restored which is why reform and voting is so important the well off have always known that to keep what they have they come out and vote for their establishment chums….it is time the workers got off their asses and started saying a new mantra,instead of what’s the use…. it needs to be” were screwed if we don’t “
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Democracy whats that, they lie cheat and scam the public to get elected then do as they like. Whats the point of voting you cant change the house. Till there is a will in the street to remove the lot of them in one foul swoop nothing will ever change.
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I have to disagree on this one good on the States wise decision making
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It must be a least 10 years since a large portion [the cherry picking] of the Clothier review was implemented into our constitution. Whilst there was a good consultation process in the run up the Clothier panel I felt they ignored much of what was said and produced an “off the shelf” conclusion they had prepared earlier for somebody else.
But as it was the clothier panel who recommended the TOTAL exclusion of the Senators [against public opinion] I would have assumed that the current proposal is just a very small step towards the goals set by Advocate Kelleher and the rest of the panel.
Perhaps Advocate Kelleher could explain why the loss of two Senators makes us undemocratic yet his proposal to get rid of all 12 was essential for good democracy as none of the current last minute objectors have?
Also why if Advocate Kelleher has been following the impact of the Clothier reforms so closely has it taken him so long to speak out when in doing so he must realise that he is removing any chance we had of a general election – which following public consultation we are told over 70% of the public wanted.
For the past 10 years all these “experts” have been more noticeable by their silence on the issue or even the need for public consultation. Again I might be being a bit cynical but has this got more to do with pre-election jitters than any sudden genuine concern.
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Yes i will second that, I would like to see a list of our “Basic democratic rights” I know we are being shafted by our own goverment in many ways, Just like lybour did in the UK. We spent more than we had, Our goverment spent spent spent, when it came to selling they sold to companies on the cheap! girls college comes to mind.
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truthseeker – you have one beyond your usual rabid rants, and I must say, I love this one of yours the most. “Count Dracula”, “scurring” “Freemasons” “Bill of Rights” – you have been reading one too many Dan Brown books. I think you should become a fiction writer, because your imagination makes J K Rowling look like a rank amateur! It is hilarious, however I am starting to think you actually believe the rubbish you spew.
Please truthseeker: provide facts, who is in the Freemasons and how does it affect Jersey government? Further, would you also name who are members of scout groups, memebrs of the Catholic Church, and all other clubs, and whether this affects their role in the States.
The law is in place so we dont’ need a Bill of Rights – any idiot can see that. That is why if someone isn’t happy about a decision, you take it to the Courts to decide. They have a tendency to get it right, so there is the fail safe.
As I said, any idiot can see that… can you truthseeker?
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Please try to keep things in perspective. Democracy in the balance / petition to the UK Government?? They will laugh us back to the harbour. After all they have just announced that they are going to slash the number of MP seats by over 50 without any consultation and nobody has batted an eyelid.
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Agree but where have you been since Clothier,why not speak up when the “cherry picking” was going on originally then constables would be gone & so much better without.
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truthseeker #2
I’m not convinced you know what it is you are ranting about. You should be in rejoice of this motion because it was overwhelmingly supported by deputies and it erodes the ‘establishment’s’ ability to vote en bloc increasing the power of the back benchers and predominantly unelected Deputies! Look forward to more spend, more taxes, and more ridiculous propositions to entertain you.
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O come on do you really think the public could care about being asked about this saga. What we want is people who can do the job, not so many people who are achieving very little, but a massive tax bill for the rest of us to pay. This is obviously a case of some people standing up for their friends in power in the hope that they don’t join the unemployed and of course lose their votes. We are not all idiots and sometimes its good to remind those that think we are that their expensive time wasting is a joke.
Get on and run the Island and stop with this democracy line … it’s starting to be very boring for those of us with eyes wide open.
If you’re so worried about democracy then why not tackle the more serious issues of housing – one price for a local and another for a non-local. Look at the social security system and how it works! Get real and get a job and stop wasting all our time.
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His is right – the senators are the most democraticly elected memebers of the states. Those deputies and constables with just a handfull of votes have no rght to vote to remove senators. Thats nothing less than political bulling, manipulation and complete disregard for the voters of jersey.
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2 Truthseeker.
Well said.
What the public must be wary of is ‘false hope and false deliverance’ that the ‘same as the old crowd’ gathering a pitiful volume of signatures in King St.,are promising.
I wish I had the answer, but I don’t, but I know who also doesn’t have the answer !
Perhaps Deputy Duhamel has a point, if we all huddle together for warmth , the ‘magic circle’ can make all of our democracy disappear before our collective eyes.
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Truthseeker at 2. After a lifetime of hard work I suppose I am fairly well off. But I agree with most of your points, our democracy is thin to say the least and jersey politics fails to inspire.
I just wish you would learn to use a few full stops, I was breathless after reading your post.
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Well done Advocate Kelleher but, like the rest of us I fear that you are p***ing in the wind. Whilst I won’t pretend that I was an advocate of Clothier I certainly agreed on one point – a reduction in the number of States members. And the pic’n'mix attitude that the States had to Clothier goes a long way to explaining the useless body the States has become. What we actually need is an island-wide debate followed by a referendum on the constitution of the States. Then we will see that the electorate will not be apathetic – perhaps the last thing that this flock of turkeys wants. Above all, what we don’t need is a Jersey version of an English county council. We neither ended up with Clothier nor were his proposals ever likely to lead to party politics in Jersey. The one thing, with rare exception, that has been lacking in the States for many years is common sense. Forget about competence, that’s too much to ask for. Not to mention open government and the truth, so I won’t bother to mention either. After all, they are just fundamental to a modern democracy and when was Jersey ever bothered about that?
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“O come on do you really think the public could care about being asked about this saga. What we want is people who can do the job”
The unemployables all seem to get in as deputies. If you want a better class of people you must make it easier for those who appeal to the whole Island to get in, not those who can get 300 from an apathetic parish to turnout on a wet November day.
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donald pond (15) If you want a better class of people you must make it easier for those who appeal to the whole Island
Well said!
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As the ones we all have a vote on, the Senators should be the last to be culled, not the first. Get rid of the Constables, who are only there for being elected to do a different job.
I totally agree with Adv Kelleher’s argument that they are cutting our representation by about a third.
Perhaps it is a lack of arithmetical skills in the States. Judging by the way they handle statistics and budgets, they probably think 10/48 is bigger than 14/52.
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One other aspect of this is important. We all agree that we want better candidates standing to be States members. If you live in a country parish, your chances of becoming a deputy may be minimal, regardless of your skills and values. In such parishes, “who you know” is enough to swing the election. If you are up against someone from an established parish family, who has lived in the parish all their life and who goes to the parish church, you’ve had it: the only options are to stand (like many, including the Pitmans, Hill and in the recent past, TLS) in a parish where you don’t live, or go for the Senatorial position. I personally think it wrong for people to represent a parish they do not live in.
Reducing the number of senators makes it much harder for those with merit (rather than contacts) to become States members. That is the undeniable truth.
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Sanity 8 .. Wrong again – the UK are holding a UK wide referendum (5th May 2011) on the proposal to change constituencies and ultimately reduce the number of MP’s from 650 to 600. There has been a massive amount of consultation and engagement with the electorate unlike in Jersey where we have just been told that we are losing four members elected by the Island wide mandate! John Kelleher’s letter is accurate and representative of the thoughts and feelings of most sensible islanders.
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No Tintin – The UK bill makes provision for a referendum only on the voting system and quote “The Bill also contains proposals for a referendum on changing the voting system that we use to elect MPs to Westminster from the current “first-past-the-post” system to the Alternative Vote.”
This is significant as if passed the bill will reduce the number of Welsh MPs in the UK parliament to 30 from the current 40.
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19 Tintin
Don’t give up the day job yet Lyndon.
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Sanity, yes you are correct but the outcome of the referendum could impact significantly on the number of seats in the commons as the second part of the bill is to “Reduce the number of MP’s from 650 to 600 through boundary changes” .. *The ‘alternative vote’ system will be used after a review of the boundaries of the area that each MP represents (known as their constituency) is completed. This is due to happen between 2011 and 2013. At the end of the review, Parliament will vote on implementing the new boundaries. If the new boundaries are implemented, the ’alternative vote’ system will be used for all future elections to the House of Commons. *source electoralcommission.org.uk Anyway, we were talking about the island wide mandate!
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23 Tintin
As I said don’t give up the day job Lyndon. It requires a bit more imagination and intelligence to be a States Member these days!
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=741414528
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Aukward (24) As I said don’t give up the day job Lyndon
Maybe, but little Tintin (20 & 24) is correct. You owe him an apology, whatever his Nome du Plume.
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Reform means removing unelected members, deputies and most importantly connetables.
Anything short of this is undemocratic. Who wants democracy?
I find it amazing that everyone bleets on about deputies whilst the other two groups seem to be overlooked for some reason.
Connetables are the ones most likely to get in without being elected so get these need to go. Let them look after the parish this is their job.
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Adrian,
Don’t confuse the issue. Until this decision was made I got to vote for 13 States members. Now that will be reduced to 9.
The irony of Southern saying in the debate “why are we discussing this when we’ve already made the decision” was amusing, given that he has spent half of his career bringing propositions to overturn decisions that have already been taken. The other half he has spent failing to become a Senator.
How did we end up with a States chamber dominated by people who have failed in the “real world” and are now desperate to hold onto a 40 grand a year job?
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clothier, now.
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donald no confusion if you were interested in true democracy you would agree with my comments.
Do you really think Ozouf will achieve much in the real world once he leaves politics? I don’t.
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Adrian,
You are so tiresome. It is quite possible to think that Ozouf is pretty useless and out of his depth while also believing that he is among the brightest and most capable members of the States. Its just depressing, that’s all.
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Some people have a funny idea of democracy. We are lucky enough to have the right of self-determination. Our democratically elected government democratically decided we need fewer representatives, something many have been calling for, for ages.
Now, certain others want to have that democratic decision undemocratically overturned in the name of democracy.
There must be a better over-all solution but undermining democracy in the name of democracy isn’t it.
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It is not right that people represent Parishes they do not live in (Pitmans) and as long as the unelected Constables are in the States then there is no democracy.
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Mona: Last time I looked the Constables were elected. I agree on the need to live in the Parish.
Regardless it is important that Constables sit in the States, as it is a true form of parish representation in the States.
You really do moan a lot Mona Lot.
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It was not that long ago when Advocate Kelleher along with the Clothier panel were advising the States to ignore a Mori poll that indicated that the majority of Islanders wanted to retain the Senators and it was not that long ago when most of the States members past and present now marching under the banner of democracy rejected a public referendum on the change to ministerial government following the clothier proposals, which let face is the biggest constitution change the Island has seen since the war.
The time for a referendum was BEFORE these changes were introduced but this was rejected by the States and I would strongly suggest all those now getting behind our would be Senator and the other establishment cronies look back at the States voting record for themselves and see who voted AGAINST democracy. Since these UNDEMOCRATIC changes were introduced we have had two unelected Chief Ministers and if this campaign is successful will probably get a third in the next house. This is NOT democracy.
That it has taken a Constable to stand up and get this changed and to finally pave the way for our first GENERAL ELECTION must be one accomplishment I would have though even Adrian would approve. The public have to realise that this campaign is not about “Democracy” but about an intense last ditch rearguard action by those with vested interests to scupper any chance of a general election and keep a status quo in the hope that they will get an additional 3 / 6 years salary under a chief minister appointed by the establishment.
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Donald (27 & 30) Its just depressing, that’s all.
Too true, I feel depressed. Can our mish mash of Deputies ever raise their sights above self interest?
If our best hope is Southern and the JDA, we are all doomed; doomed.
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Sanity,
You make no sense. Frank Walker and TLS were both elected Senators. Who are the unelected Chief Ministers you are going on about?
If you mean that we should have a direct election for Chief Minister, then you need to decide what powers the chief minister should have. Because in a parliamentary style system, unless the Chief Minister can command the majority of the electorate, he can’t do anything.
This isn’t about the establishment, its about how do we get better people in the States. And this step makes it harder for the “coalition of the unemployable” that dominates the States to be displaced.
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Donald – My reference was aimed at the fact that to date none of our Chief Ministers have offered themselves to the electorate and sought a public mandate at the election immediately preceding their appointment. I accept that they were elected, albeit not exactly poll toppers at the election 3 years preceding but this hardly gives them a mandate based on current manifesto and issues.
As the current subject is Democracy and that certain parties are attempting to claim the moral high ground with, in my opinion, rather questionable motives I think this is very relevant.
In the very recent past we have had the likes of advocate Kelleher attempting to impose major constitution reforms without referendum and in the case of removing the Senators in the full knowledge that this was AGAINST public opinion. Why has he suddenly changed in mind on both issues?
We also have a lot of current and past States members who just a few years ago voted AGAINST allowing any public referendums on major constitutional reforms when it suited them now pleading democracy when a logical change brought about by the changes they introduced does not suit. This is hypocrisy – not democracy.
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