TTS ‘ breaking law’
Wednesday 9th March 2011, 3:00PM GMT.
Signs can be confusing, the panel were told
THE States department in charge of Jersey’s roads is breaking the law by not providing enough signs showing the speed limit in certain parts of the Island, the Home Affairs Minister has claimed.
As a result of the ‘unsatisfactory’ approach taken by Transport and Technical Services to the issue, Senator Ian Le Marquand – who was speaking at a Scrutiny hearing on speed limits yesterday – said that motorists were often left confused about how fast they should be driving.
It was also claimed at the hearing that inadequate signage often meant that people who were speeding could not be prosecuted because the limit was not clear enough.
The allegations come a day after States police launched a crackdown on speeding drivers following a spate of road crashes in the Island which left one woman dead and several others with serious injuries.
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Wouldn’t it be easier to have digital speed limit displays, that way when they change every 5 minutes we wouldn’t need to change the signs.
I see ex sen Len has got his parish well posted.
Congratulations to you Constable in the reduction of accidents your new limit has prompted.
I drive everywhere at 15mph, just to be sure I’m not breaking the law.
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We don’t need any more signs of any description. There is enough as there is.
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Please tell me this is a joke, doesn’t Senator Le Marquand have better things to do?
All islander drivers should know the roads well enough to know what speed they should be doing.
How difficult is it, you pass a 30 sign that means you do 30 til you see the next sign and change your speed accordingly.
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Perhaps the police are breaking the law by not being out at night speed trapping. I don’t think people are worried about 30/40mph. The are concerned about 80/100mph or more.
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The speed limit in Jersey is 40 and it is common knowledge that most built up areas lit by street lamps have a limit of 30, in fact this is a typical question on the theory driving test and surely it is common sense Green Lanes are 15/20. So what are you saying, the lack of signs is causing people to lose all common sense and thus breaking the speed limit by driving 60 mph?
I nearly got crashed into today by an unlocal Islander with a tiny baby in the back seat of her car with, may I add, a baby on board sign stuck to her car window. This clearly incompetent person, after tearing road a narrow blind corner and seeing me half way across the road when pulling out from my drive on a Green Lane, decided to accelerate towards me! This is a prime example of why accidents happen, stupid idiots with absolutely no common sense, not the lack of signs.
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The cynic in me suggests that it’s a ploy to get the island speed limit lowered to 30mph “because it would clarify all the misunderstandings” Which, surprise, is made far easier because they replaced the 40mph signs with the “Revert To National Speed Limit” ones.
Yet again, States Members would overrule the public that they’re s’posed to represent. Driving in Jersey is now miserable enough. Catch the idiots doing 60, 70, 80mph & leave the rest of us to do 40mph when we’re not sat in queues trying to park!
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Well, Le Marquand has apparently got it wrong. The case of [2008]JRC 054 Burnett-v-Attorney General was an appeal on the point. I would suggest that he read the case but for the fact that he must have already done so because it was an appeal from a case on which he, Le Marquand sat!!
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(6) j.
hear hear , likewise.
i plod about at 30/35 these days, it is miserable these days , if i didnt have to cart my tools i would not bother.
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If the Police just cracked down on those driving at silly speeds, well above the max 40 MPH permitted on any road it would be a good start. My experience is that they are more than happy to lecture a motorist who has edged slightly over the limit whilst watching the wallies travelling at 60 / 70 phoning their mates to warn them where the speed checks are. It makes good conviction statistics but nothing for road safety.
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I agree, this is a ploy to get the limit down to 30. Once this happens the next step is 20 ….
It will not reduce accidents only increase them
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“Congratulations to you Constable in the reduction of accidents your new limit has prompted.”
- St.Clement?! All the new 30 limit there has proved is that lowering the speed limit has had no effect! People will still ignore the limit no matter what it is. Plus, people will be complacent and ASSUME that ALL traffic will be 30 or under, and blindly step out into the road in front of the 45mph traffic – bam!
“I drive everywhere at 15mph, just to be sure I’m not breaking the law.”
I actually enjoy doing 30 now, I have a good laugh at the tailback behind me
I think to myself “If you don’t like being held up, you know who to complain to.”
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I agree with other comments in here ‘ Speed Don’t Kill’ it’s the idiots who simply learn to pass their driving test. They have not learnt how to drive or gained any kind of common sense. It’s the idiots doing 15, 20 mile an hour in 30 or 40 that hold people up and get other frustrated and end up making stupid mistakes trying to overtake. It’s not like I want to go everywhere at 80 mph but I get so sick of being stuck behind some muppet in a world of his own, day dreaming, on phones, doing their makeup, leaning into passenger side of car to get something out of glovebox and vearing into the opposite lane of traffic with kids in back of car, yes onlyu yesterday I saw this! When I do legitimately overtake I get them honking their horns and flashing their lights like I have just murdered their family or something. Oh and just so people know I am a biker and spend most of the time on my commute to work avoiding idiots not indicating, sat stationary at traffic lights when light is green,Driving through red lights, Sat at a roundabout wondering what on on earth they should do then stop mid way round it to let someone through from the left? People stopping at the junction by the hotel de france and treating it like a filter in turn, People its not a filter in turn! The amount of times i’ve nearly been killed just riding in my own lane and some idiot comes round corner and almost knocks me off my bike and look at me as if I am in the wrong. I don’t understand how half these people get through the day without killing themselves and everyone around them. Sorry but these are the people who are causing the accidents. Give out IQ tests, Any who can’t get over 100, Ban em!!
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I like to drive at 24 mph. I am 86 years old and I was at Dunkirk. I simply won’t give in to people in a hurry. I don’t have to work and I am happy to clog up the road in my beige Honda Civic wearing my equally beige flat cap. It reminds me of my days in the honorary police. If these people are in a rush, they should leave home two hours earlier. These speed limits won’t stop me acting as a moving bottleneck, oh no!
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TTS too flippin busy testing diesel in car tanks and found nothing amiss as usual,led by a Scot who still fails to understand Jersey,typical non jobs,annoying busy people with stupid road checks and non job activity who actually make a taxable profit, you watch now they’ll be a proliferation of higgidy piggildy signs on posts like the ones near the Grand hotel that look like demented Totem Poles…
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Given that young males newly licensed are the main speeders, frequently seen driving like maniacs in hot hatches,why not put a speed restriction displayed on the vehicle…and if after 18 months they have gained road experience and not been out of order it could simply be lifted…thus leaving the mainstream of established drivers in peace to drive the road conditions.
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Too many unlawful traffic police about. Labourers who work for contractors who wave stop signs when they have no legal authority to do so. Watch them wriggle if their antics were to cause an accident.
You don’t have to stop.
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I was crossing a road in St Helier a few weeks ago. A police car approached, driven by a woman officer and the driver sped up as she saw the pedestrian (me!) in the road.
If the police (who rely upon the respect of the public, which respect they won’t get if they behave like that) cannot set an example, then what hope is there for anybody else?
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#12 Speed don’t Kill – as a fellow biker I wholeheartedly agree.
Nothing makes we want to grab a fistful of throttle more than having followed some clown doing ~25mph in a 40, indicating to go around a bend in the road or just generally driving with an alarming lack of aptitude.
Similarly people in traffic a few cars back who see the light go green, the first car go through, the second car, the car in front…. oh wait there’s a 3-car length gap in front, maybe I’ll stick it in gear and crawl forward, oh whoops, it’s back to red again.
Sorry, but I’m going to be giving it the beans and cutting past the traffic and to hell with your disproval.
I could go on for hours:
People who would rather swerve to the other lane than slow down for 5 seconds to let someone out of a junction.
Horse riders allowing their animals to foul the road (know how dangerous fresh dung is for a bike going around a corner?).
People doing 35mph in the right hand land of the avenue, forcing you to undertake if you want to drive at the already very low speed limit.
Horse riders who choose to go along main roads at rush hour (also, should a 12 year old be in ‘control’ of a flighty farm animal on the road, pretty sure the rest of us need a license and insurance at a certain age?).
People so old you wouldn’t trust them to boil an egg, yet they’re somehow still behind the wheel of their Montego with their foglights on because their cataracts are playing up….
etc,etc…
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“Too many unlawful traffic police about. Labourers who work for contractors who wave stop signs when they have no legal authority to do so. Watch them wriggle if their antics were to cause an accident.
You don’t have to stop.”
I am not sure that you need legal authority to direct traffic.
Suppose I am driving up a hill and encounter a patch of ice. I realise that it will be difficult or impossible to cross the ice so I get out of my car and tell the other drivers behind that I am going to reverse and take another road and advise them that they should do the same.
The facts are that I am acting in the best interests of my fellow drivers and giving them advice not directions.
They have to evaluate the situation and act as they see fit, I cannot enforce a solution.
Returning to your labourers example, if they have obtained permission from the parish to close the road and they are making best efforts to redirect the traffic and you ignore them and as a result there is an accident you may find your insurers very unsympathetic indeed.
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Putting more signs up won’t sort the speed limit out… they will just be ignored. I always thought that when you see a 30mph sign, you do 30 until otherwise stated.
I have held a road licence for a “whole 2 years” (and racing for 5) and must admit while being a mear teenager… I can still see why half the accidents happen. While I don’t have a problem with people doing 5 mph under the speed limit… if you are doing 20 mph in a 40 mph then sorry but you are just asking trouble and that is how accidents happen! A good example i’ve seen was when an old couple were traveling at 25mph in the overtaking lane on Vic Avenue a few weeks back… ergh….
The requirements of passing a test in Jersey compared to the UK is stupidly easy! You have a 50 question theory test, a road awareness test (clicking a button when you spot a hazard on the video) and a driving test that can last up to 1 1/2 hours, what do we have? 35 question theory test (with no true answers for some of the questions) and a 20 minute test! (the theory test wasn’t even around when my mum did her test!)
Nevermind this rubbish about TTS breaking the law, if you want driving standards to improve in Jersey, then raise the target!
I wonder how many of the Islanders would fail the test if we all retook it tomorrow?
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12 Speed Don’t Kill – I am the original poster at no 1 using this name, not that I object to others using it, I just wanted to say no 12 is not me.
That said I couldn’t agree more with his/her comments.These are the real reasons why RTA’s occur, not a small amount of excess speed. Absolutely right that the old duffers who are driving at 27mph everywhere no matter what the limit are casuing frustrated motorists to overtake resulting in horns blaring and headlight flashing. It is perfectly legal to overtake someone travelling at 27mph in a 40 zone providing you don’t break the speed limit and do so in a safe manner.
These same idiots continue driving at 27mph in green lanes thus breaking the speed limit, they are oblivious, some of these people have never passed a driving test as Jersey didn’t have one until 1957.
Misuse of roundabouts, the roundabout rule is simple, give way to traffic oncoming from the right, they couldn’t make it any simpler.
Pleased you mentioned my personal favourite, the dual paralell lanes past the Co Op, people approach this from St. Saviours Road and immediately change lane without indicating or checking if the lane is free. I now approach this knowing that even though I have priority in my lane some idiot is going to swerve into me if I don’t brake.
If you want to change lane, mirror signal manouvre, it’s not complicated. If I had damaged my car and wanted to write it of there is no better place to guarantee an accident than here. Just drive around the circuit staying in one lane and let some mother in a 4X4 drive into you, why the hell is this not policed?
Wellington Hill same thing, there is no stop line at the bottom of the hill, the road turns90 degrees but it’s a continuation of the same road, why on earth do people stop here?
People who drive in near dark conditions without using their lights, what the hell do they think when everyone else has their lights on, saving electricity? Oh and idiots who never indicate except when exiting a difficult junction, and mums in chelsea tractors driving down narrow country lanes meeting an oncoming vehicle and having just passed a passing point stay motionless in the centre of the road causing me to back up 200 metres to let them pass. They must sell their vehicles withan unused reverse gear.
Brggh, I’m off to take me tablets and calm down.
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Lack of signs is one thing – but signs that are just plain wrong is quite another.
The speed limit at the bottom of Rue St Thomas as you come off Longueville Road appears to indicate that the road is limited to 30mph. Follow the road up, turn up Rue du Tapon, and turn left at the top into Princes Tower Road, and you will eventually see another 30mph limit sign – with a derestriction sign on the back of it. So if you come into the road at one end the speed limit is 40mph and at the other end it is 30mph. ??!!
This has been so for at least 10 years. But as no-one will ever bother to run a speed check up there, who cares?
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I agree with Senator Le Marquand. There are many examples where signage is inadequate, badly placed, hidden by foliage or non-existant. A blatant example, just look at the stretch between the tunnel and West Park – I have looked hard and can only see one small “repeater” sign; there are several points where you enter this road and at none is there an indication of a speed limit. A similar situation exists on many other roads in the island. And it’s no good making that very valid point at the Parish Hall, they don’t care, won’t listen – just look at the recent case of the lady who received an absolute discharge at the magistrate’s court, all because of the failure at parish hall level to make decisions based on the facts. On many occasions the motorist can not see the sign but parish hall enquiries are completely blind! Maybe all motorists, where the facts justify the assertion, should insist on taking the case to the Court. And maybe centeniers should be made to explain to the Court why they prosecute when signage is wholly inadequate – only then might they actually think about making reasonable decisions based on the facts. I do not support breaking speed limits and always observe them but there have been many times when, too late, I have realised that I am exceeding the limit (luckily, without the need to plead my case at the parish hall). I am sure that most other motorists are the same but how many, who through no fault of their own, have found themselves in front of an intransigent centenier?
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#15
I have to say I take offence to that comment Zoro “Given that young males newly licensed are the main speeders”
Young females are also just as bad. The problem is when the youths have more than one person in the car, they then show off and drive too fast.
I beileve the term boyracer should be changed to youthracer.
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#21, I could not agree more with your post and this is exactly what annoys me! Though if I moaned – I would be slated as a hot-headed teenager
I would suggest police should do speed-checks more during night when the “unofficial 5 mile drag race” takes place…. but there are just as many incidents during daytime…. e.g. Last August at St.John with the car going straight into that wall outside Spar, or even Trinity last week! From what I heard… one car stopped to allow the car on the otherside of the road to come through, however behind him was a young Portugese driver flying through that road, overtaking the stopped car and head on into the oncoming car.
It is a lose/lose situation for the states… they take action and their efforts will be ignored.. if they do nothing then they will still be moaned at.
DVS should add a CPU chip into engines limiting cars to 40 mph!
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With all you lot complaining about how bad everybody else’s driving (it’s always the other driver) is making our roads unsafe perhaps we should have a 20MPH limit everywhere.
Or perhaps we should only allow self opinionated, ego bloated drivers on the road.
Everybody makes a mistake occasionally (except me of course)if you make one at 5 mph over the limit nasty things happen quicker than if you were driving at or under limit.
You may not think speed kills but it certainly contributes
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I agre ethat the sinage is inadequate and it is only the fact that most local motorists know teh road layout that there are not more accidents, such as the fatal one at St Mary. ( I hope the family are considering legal action on this one )
There are several instances were priority, of give way is marked by nothing more than a fading yellow line, at the bottom of West Hill, there is a STOP sign about 50 yards short of the junction, which presumably is fixed to an existing pole.
One should always carry a camera in your car in case of accidents to record poorly position of road signs, and never be bullied by a Hobby Bobby Centineer at a Parish Hall enquiry. If in any doubt, request case be heard at the Magistrates Court.
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There is a recently erctec sign on the wall of the decrompression unit on the Albert Quay which states
no loud music
no skateboarding
no ball games
no sounding of horns
no speeding
between the hours of 19:00 and 07:00 mon – sun
Does this mean that the above are allowed between 07:00 and 19:00?
not just signs but intelligible signs are required
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#24, I didn’t spot that comment and must admit I take offence to that comment to! :O
Speed doesn’t kill… its when you go from speed to standstill in 1/2 a second that kills!
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To each and everyone who is heading towards Bel Royal from Beaumont PLEASE remember -it’s not difficult – that the speed limit here is 30mph and does not change to 40mph until you reach the playing fields – there is a concealed entrance/exit just prior to the playing fields and trying to filter into the traffic coming round that corner, who many -including the police without sirens going – have changed into an offshoot of Silverstone is nothing short of a nightmare. This is the only way we have of entering or leaving our properties and it wont be long before there will be a dreadful accident caused by some numpty coming round that corner at great speed. Maybe someone could do a speed check here one day – you’d be amazed.
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Warren J#27
No need to “request “its written in law a Centenier cannot deal with an offence where the accused does not admit guilt, you can insist!!
He / She in such cases can only take no further action or warn the accused for Magistrates court.
But, be sure of your facts. Speed detection procedures now dictate that officers make notebook entries and or take photographs of signage relevant to the offence at the beginning of setting up a detection area.
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Don’t worry by the time he’s blown all OUR money on Wiltshire reports etc there won’t be any money left for new signs!!!
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Loco 18 ”
People who would rather swerve to the other lane than slow down for 5 seconds to let someone out of a junction”
I agree with most of what you say but this comment above, let me give my view. People stopped at a junction attempting to gain entry onto another road are required by law to wait until it’s safe to do so. Either there should be no oncoming traffic or someone on that road can let you out. You do not have the right of way nor do you have priority. Sticking the front of your car further and further across the road in an attempt to bully your way onto the road is illegal and dangerous. often the bully will push so far forwards that the oncoming driver has no choice but to give way or hit the vehicle.
I deliberately do not let such vehicles out, the further you push forward the less likely I’ll let you out, wait your turn in accordance with the law and stop being an impatient bully.
Other favourites, people who run amber lights often followed by someone behind running the red light. Amber means stop unless it’s not safe to do so, the amount of times I’ve been furiously beeped by the driver behind for complying with the law and stopping at an amber light I can’t count.
Also ( invariably ) women who are trying to exit a junction, I flash them from a distance giving them plenty of time to enter the stream of traffic and they don’t move, i flahs them again and they look at me as if to say “does he mean me, no he can’t do he didn’t mention my name, I’ll just wait here a bit” dozey *** of course I mean you, men never do this as they are capable of making a decision behind the wheel.
People who politely give me the right of way but don’t flash, instead they give some vague hand gesture that I can’t see because the sun is obscuring them. Flash your lights. I can’t miss that.
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Well, they must have a load of speed limit signs that they can put back up. Hasn’t anyone else noticed how all the professionally-made-looking speed limit signs have been taken down and replaced by home-made-looking ones with a brighter shade of white background, but badly proportioned and aligned numerals?
33Reginald: I always used to wonder why the highway code disapproves of flash signals. But, one day, I unexpectedly passed my wife driving the other way. I greeted her with a flash, as one does. Then I had to make an emergency stop, as someone waiting to come out of a junction a little further down the road thought I meant her, and pulled out across me to my surprise. So make sure you are the one a flash signal is addressed to!
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33. flashing lights can cause confusion. I know of one incident when someone was flashing their lights at their mate on the pavement meanwhile a car pulled out of a T junction and got T-boned by this clown. Needless to say the driver pulling out got blamed by this clown and also by the police. You therefore act on this signal at your peril.
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#33: Reginald Molehusband
A fair comment. However, there are some junctions where you have a limited visibility and you literally need to stick your nose past the line to be able to see if there’s any traffic coming – there’s a junction about a half mile north of Zion which is a perfect example.
I’d say it too is inconsiderate to not let people out of a junction in town during rush hour, and can result in massively backed up traffic (example: people trying to get out of Patriotic St. at 5:30). Of course you wait your turn, but some people are just plain rude. Going back to Patriotic St and the exit onto Gloucester street example: someone has already stopped in the right hand lane to let you out, then people just keep flying past in the left lane, either blissfully unaware, or just plain selfish. You look like a prat because this person’s waiting for you to go, and the lights up the road have changed to green, but you can’t get into the lane you need to get to.
These are the examples I had in mind.
Aggressively moving past the line is indeed dangerous and not on.
Good luck with the backlash from the dozy women driver’s comment!
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I thoroughly agree with everything that Speed Don’t Kill (12) and Loco (18) have to say and I am a FEMALE car driver, not a motorbike rider – so their experience must be even worse than mine and I still think it!
The driving standards in Jersey are chronically poor, especially the old and the young (Jersey Teenager excepted of course
)
I have just one other thing to say on this thread – (33) Reginald Molehusband – are you showing your age with that “nom de plume”, or what?!!!
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37 Diane ”
I have just one other thing to say on this thread – (33) Reginald Molehusband – are you showing your age with that “nom de plume”, or what?!!!”
Ah but the very fact that you know what it means places you at a certain age. I’m fondly remembering those wonderful public information films I saw when I was a kid, remember the coastguard one with the lardy middle aged holidaymakers on the beach and the man drowning. “Look Petunia he’s waving”
Loco 36 agree totally selfish not to let people out of a junction at busy times, I’m thinking of roads like Route du Fort where people impatiently sticking their noses out can cause an accident. Wait for the lights to change and a gap will appear.
Worst is during rush hour when you are trying to exit a junction and join a major road and someone pulls in front of you blocking you in even when they can’t go anywhere and are nose to tail, again in my experience usually a woman doing her lippy and not engaged with the dull business of driving.
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26 – PJG
I see what you’re saying but there are mistakes and then there are dangerous manoeuvres.
I was nearly taken out the other day on my motorbike as when going round a corner I was greeted by some idiot on the wrong side of the road overtaking two cyclists. It was only quick reactions and the fact that I didn’t need much road space which prevented an accident. And no, I wasn’t speeding, probably doing about 20mph in a 30 zone.
A sensible driver would not have attempted an overtake when they could not see the road ahead to be clear. That in my book is a dangerous manoeuvre, not a mistake.
Not sure more speed limit signs would’ve prevented my experience!
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Lieutenant Colonel # 13. I don’t think there were any 15 year olds at Dunkerque; aside to that I have to disagree with many commentators on this site. The driving standards in Jersey aren’t as bad as many would have you believe. I have driven in many places throughout the U.K. and on the Continent, Malta, Cyprus and Oman. I found the worse were the Italians who kept beeping their horns
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try india there are no rules. yes route du fort, i am the bloke who let you out , thats why i toodle along in the morning.
i ride bikes also , so two wheelers i let you go also.
if we think about others life will change.
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# 33 Reginald Molehusband
You have suggested that flashing of lights is better than a hand gesture. I partly agree with you but after having had an accident when I mistook a flashing of lights as letting me out and being told it was driving without due care and attention and to accept responsibility the hand gesture may be better. As in my case the lady was flashing “hello” to her friend!
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To clarify, the flashing of headlights is to let other road users know that you are there. It is not an indication of your willingness to allow someone to enter a stream of traffic which would normally be your right of way or to greet a friend or fellow driver.
If you misinterpret the flashing of lights and are involved in an accident the fault will be entirely yours!
If you wish to exercise polite driving a firm singular hand gesture will suffice.
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43 Spring Heeled Jack –
If you wish to exercise polite driving a firm singular hand gesture will suffice.
The problem with a hand gesture is that due to the reflective nature of a car windscreen it can’t be clearly seen in most driving conditions, leading to confusion on behalf of the both the driver giving the signal ( is he going to go or what ) and the recipient ( is he letting me go, flash for Pete’s sake, I can see your lights )
I accept that the potential exists for flashing to be misinterpreted but only if used irresponsibly. Flashing as a form of communication is used effectively and safely by most drivers, a few dimwits abuse and misinterpret it.
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#43 Spring heeled Jack
Strictly this is the law, but it’s flawed. How’s it suppposed to work at night when you can’t see the other driver? Should we turn our headlights off, then turn on the interior light of the car so the other driver can see us gestering?
Apparantly you’re supposed to just stop and wait to allow someone out, but again this is flawed. You need confirmation that the other driver has seen you and they’re not just paused in traffic briefly.
Similarly, when I’m on foot and crossing the road, I wait until I’ve made eye contact with a driver before walking on front of thir car.
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44 and 45 – agreed and agreed ! ( especially the dimwit part).
I was just stating what the law says and reiterating to those unsure that the flashing of lights, if misinterpreted, can lead to a very expensive repair bill – or worse.
I have indeed been in situations where at a junction someone madly flashes me. I think, “hmm is he/she allowing me out, greeting a friend or indeed warning me that they are there”. Also have seen accidents where the person thinks that they are allowed to join the flow of traffic and gets T-boned. The insurance firms will argue that the driver with a car wedged in their door is at fault.
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Can someone enlighten me as to when there is a need to flash your lights, make a hand gesture etc to other motorists?
In all of the situations given so far one motorist already has the priority and to try and let the other go first only confuses the situation to 3rd and 4th parties etc.
Some may think it polite to change these clearly written priorities on a whim while driving.
Others, including me consider it downright dangerous.
Drive according to the Highway Code then your actions will not surprise other road users.
Beware when your passenger says it’s OK to pull out as they can see there is not any oncoming traffic. Have an accident, it’s the drivers fault. Much better for the passenger to lean back in their seat to give the driver his best vision and not lean forward blocking it.
Only a uniformed policeman can assume the responsibility of instructing a driver.
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