Curtis Warren appeal is dismissed
Monday 28th March 2011, 1:59PM BST.
Curtis Warren and co-accused have lost their appeal against conviction
DRUGS baron Curtis Warren’s prison sentence has been upheld by the highest court in Britain despite what they have called ‘serious prosecutorial misconduct’ by the States of Jersey Police.
The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council has dismissed an appeal by Warren (47) and his five co-accused against their convictions for a £1m cannabis plot over the illegal bugging of a hire car in France, Belgium and Holland.
In a judgment that heavily criticised the conduct of the States of Jersey Police in their operation to catch Warren, who is a former number one target for Interpol and one of the UK’s most notorious gangsters, the Supreme Court condemned the ‘sustained and deliberate act of law-breaking’ by the police.
• See Monday’s JEP for the full report
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Sense from the judge.
Am I bothered about Jersey police bugging his car without permission? Nope.
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Problem of living in a democracy. The rules have to be applied. Fortunatley a good dollop of common sense has been added!
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Agree with James @ 1.
Who cares if the police disregard their own rules as long as a conviction is made.
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The question is not so much whether Mr Warren has got his just desserts, moreso is it right in a so-called free society that the police and the prosecutorial authority in Jersey should, on the one hand, be free to break the law whenever they choose and, on the other hand, effectively bless this law-breaking by not charging the perpetrators? But then, this is Jersey, one law for them and one for us – and this extends to every one of us, James, not just the Warrens of this world.
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Well you should be James – it more or less means they are a law unto themselves.
Not good.
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Quite right. Still did the crime.
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There is no consistency in this it is a given in English law that if the prosecuting evidence is compromised it can not be used….? it has nothing…or should have nothing to do with what anyone thinks of the guy.Puzzled
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Excellent result; common sense prevailed notwithstahding the procedural violation by the States Police. Clearly there was other significant evidence that convinced them to uphold the conviction, as I alluded to in the previous chain of comments on this case.
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“the Supreme Court condemned the ‘sustained and deliberate act of law-breaking’ by the police.”
So hold on now, if we break the law – we get punished but it’s OK for the very system that provides us with a service that makes sure we are punished for breaking the law breaks the law itself? Right yes, very good role modelling (!)
My main worry is – is this the only case where the States of Jersey police have broken the very laws that they are meant to protect? I know for a fact that it isn’t…
I was hoping this case would highlight the inconsistency and unlawful treatment that exists with some dealings with the States of Jersey Police – alas, looks like, once again, the untouchable bubble that is around Jersey is intact… hurrah(!)
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It DOES matter that the police broke the law – that is what happens in Police States (not States Police !)
(Lucky that nothing else dodgy has occurred in recent years – like illegal suspension of politically inconvenient senior officers?)
Island made to look like it is run by incompetent shysters – AGAIN !
Right decision though.
GOOD !
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In Jersey, evidence obtained by the police by illegal means or by entrapment can be used in court at the court’s discretion – that is the law, but the morals stink.
Without legal safeguards (the police ignore guidelines) where do the police draw the line?
No 8, there was no other significant evidence -the conviction was based on illegally obtained evidence and if you as an ex policeman cannot see what is wrong with that then that is very worrying.
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So this is going to drag on to another court, the European Court of Human Rights and I think we know that in the end Warren will be released and we will have to pay millions to him in compensation. The longer he sits in prison the higher the compensation, the longer it drags on the more we are paying lawyers to argue the toss.
You simply cannot have the people who are supposed to be enforcing the law, breaking it. The end never justifies the means. If the authorities do not obey the law they write then why should we mere mortals who have it foisted on us obey it either.
This is just another cover up of civil service incompetence. They couldn’t get him fair and square, they are poor police officers and should be dismissed without pension.
Still on the plus side it may see the end of Jurats in the Royal Court.
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Agree with “4. Al;though my sentiments lie with being happy this was the right result, where do you draw the line when it comes to securing evidence and why were the laws there in the first place.
Who’s going to care when a speed reading is falsified when you were obviously going to fast, or when they use comments you made without being cautioned.
Or even, when affidavits are sworn in front of the Bailiff that the intelligence gained was from a ‘tried and tested source’, when in fact it was not.
And, to corroborate Caz, this latter example was rife half a dozen years ago, even causing the Bailiffs secretary to remark why so many copy warrants were coming back with nothing found.
But that doesn’t matter does it? Unless its your door they’re kicking in.
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@Caz
I take it from your complaint that you would rather Warren were set free on a technicality?
Life isn’t perfect – the lines are blurred all the time. I am sure (at least I HOPE) that the police will be suitably embarrassed by the episode and will take more care in future.
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The upholding of the conviction is clearly a good result for the Island as a whole.
The question needs to be asked whether this an isolated case of the means justifying the ends?
It is important that Islanders are aware that any decision on the tactics of the operation against Warren et al would have been discussed and agreed by the SOJP senior management team in their regular strategy meetings.
I hope the investigation doesn’t just hang one token officer out to dry when those up the chain would have had full knowledge of the illegality of their actions, willing to disregard the wishes of three soverign nations in doing so.
Small pond out.
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Blue Knight#8 “procedural violation”!!!
Please take off your blue tinted glasses David, it was ‘sustained and deliberate act of law-breaking’ by the police.
Your phrase suggests that they forgot to tick a box on a form!
I am very pleased that Warren is to stay banged up but two wrongs don’t make a right.
Flymo, “Who cares if the police disregard their own rules as long as a conviction is made.”
Really? What would you tolerate from them next? Planting drugs in their pockets simply because you can never catch them fairly and squarely in the act? Beating confessions out of prisoners? Setting up innocent people to make the unsolved crime stats seem less embarassing? It is a slippery slope.
Justice was half-done yesterday. The police officers involved should face the music, not be promoted for their crimes, which many were!
Interestingly the investigating police are to – get this – consider whether any disciplinary charges should follow. There is such a charge under the discipline code as ‘bringing the force into disrepute’.
There can be no greater case for such a charge when the Supreme Court makes comments as they did yesterday.
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Ok both sides broke the Law, only thing is Warren is a drug dealer/ drug pusher, who is harming our family friends and children with his drugs. police broke the Law to save them!!!
He who Lives by the Sword ….dies by the sword, as they say !
As for his human rights, does that mean we can sue him for supplying drugs to our family where he has abused their human rights!
Would love to hear comments back from Lawyers on this.
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in Europe, the cops would be in prison for breaking the law especially when breaking laws in 3 countries. In Jersey they are held as heroes. Warren is a criminal but at least prosecute him fairly and not by all means.
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I hope that the Bailiff, Jurats, Attorney General, Solicitor General,the Crown Advocates and the States’ Police all read the comments on this article. THEY SHOULD. And they should all hang their heads in shame. Once again, and certainly not for the first time, they have brought the Island and its respect for the rule of law into disrepute. No one can be sad that a dangerous criminal is behind bars but we must all be more than concerned to find that we truly do live in a police state where the authorities from top to bottom disregard the law. In such a society none of us is safe. How sad that all of them, charged with defending us, have been found to be so sadly lacking. Their shame taints all of us in this Island.
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16. Foxtrot Oscar – You’re spot on, I’m glad his conviction was upheld but the SOJP shouldn’t be able to get away for a blatant disregard of procedure.
It’s great that Curtis Warren is now behind bars…but only for £1million worth of cannabis…. the bloke probably has £1 million in change lost under his sofa cushions. It just seems that the SOJP were desperate to secure a conviction where other jurisdictions had failed and if they’d taken a bit more time and paid a bit more attention, they could have got him on much bigger charges.
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Well done to the Jersey Police and the investigating team who stop this man and his gang from taking hold in our Island you all deserve a medal not criticism.
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Predictable response from blue knight daft copper mentality…..and for perspective.ALCOHOL gulped down in millions of gallons does far more harm than cannabis yet it is allowed to be sold,had you just invented the toxin you would most certainly not be granted a licence to sell it, it continues being sold un challenged and “Faux legally” and has become another of our double standard legacies…if the lwa were truly concerned with keeping noxious substances out of the public’s health they would ban the sale of it,half the colossal cost of policing is policing drink induced behaviour…how quick then and what motivates the demonisisng of someone who sells basically mood altering herbs.if the public’s health were truly a worry, Smoking cigarettes would be banned…but hang on there a cotton pickin’ minute Truthseeker we get millions of pounds from taxing smokers….Ahh I see..is that not profiteering from the sale of noxious substances..Oh and Booze is a depressant drug and we make even more millions in taxing that….so back up a bit here …is the Govt making profit from drug sales to the public….so they benefit and are just as much part of the drug dealing culture as Curtiss Warren…Ahh I see well I guess that’s O.K. then and certainly fits with the double standards of the Jersey way…such conscience killing actions will catch up with you my friends make no mistake.
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Ex Pat
Strange that it is the Jersey Police who are taking all the flak for this!! I would have thought that in this day and age and given the high profile target of this operation all aspects of this operation would have had to be agreed and authorised by lawyers from the Attorney Generals department both in the advanced planning stages and during the actual operation. Strange that they never get mentioned when things go wrong. It’s always the fault of the Poor blinkin Infantry!!
It would probably be wise to wait and read the Privy council’s written judgement on the appeal before commenting, after all the judges had the power to allow the appeal and chose to dismiss it even allowing for the obviously serious shortcomings in the prosecutions case.
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The evil drugs baron has got what he deserved, Good!
The police have made what appears to be a grave mistake in their method of collecting the evidence to achieve this.
Two wrongs do not make a right.
Warren is guilty of destroying umpteen lives and should rot in jail.
The police officers, if they have broken the law, should also face the music even if only as a deterrent to other officers so tempted in their wishes to protect the public.
But, just because an officer made a mistake it would be morally unjust for this godless thug to receive a get out of jail free card.
The methods of obtaining the evidence were faulted this does not mean Warren was innocent, in fact the evidence of his guilt however obtained was from his own guilty mouth.
In my humble opinion, the Supreme Court has made a just and morally correct decision.
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The crown officers must shoulder some responsibility for this. They probably gave advice to the police along the following lines:
The bugging does not breach Jersey law. We cannot advise as to its legality in other countries.
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truthseeker#22
You outdo yourself in the shallowness of your thought, once again.
Warren is a killer who used his ruthlessness to command a gang of similar thugs, mainly to deter any competition to his monopoly, and you compare them with a government that only wants to protect its people.
One day these drugs may be legalised, taxed and controlled by an infrastructure similar to that which make it possible for one to have a pint on the way home without putting others at risk
That will never be achieve if the likes of Warren are held up as an example of how it should be done. Try asking him to pay for your hospital expenses when the contaminated drugs he sells puts you in hospital, or help to catch the pot head who has just run your family down.
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Who polices the police
Who judges the judges
no faith in the POlice or legal system left ,
its like telling a child that if he hits another child he will get a smack for doing it because its wrong to hit people
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@WB
I do believe that I didn’t comment on whether i would rather Warren were set free on a technicality?
At the end of the day, Jersey Police broke the law and that’s that. And the one time this is recognised on an international level, it is swept under the carpet – AGAIN.
I do not condon Warren’s behaviour by any means because yes, he did break the law and he does deserve to be punished but he wasn’t the only one that broke the law… that was my point.
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21. you all deserve a medal not criticism./
When you cheat and lie then you should not be in the police.
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@ 16 FO
With apologies that sarcasm does not come cross well on 2D bogs.
I too am appalled at the events here and where this will eventually lead us.
The apparent lack of accountability with regards to all levels of “our” legal profession does seem to raise one’s eyebrows.
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PJG.just listen to yourself and your amateur dramatic hysterical comments”Evil drugs baron” naughty big Dragon…are you really that easily scared..you wouldn’t know an evil drugs baron if he snogged you.
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Really hope Bob Hill gets on to this one…seems to be the only one with stones enough to do it…Breaking the law…yeah police that we pay breaking the law…Ian Le Marquand ex magistrate turned politico said it was O.K. to break the law..just think what that means folks…so what else is o.k…..we have moved to an almost Totalitarian state…they don’t like Syvret o.k. bring in the flawed and extremely questionable PACE law so we can raid his gaff…and steal his computer…this is seriously scary shit….we are allowing open law breaking…..the without probable cause clause which was a check and balance for the public’s safety…which means peeps if I ring the cops and say I believe you the reader or Joe Bloggs is a paedo and drug user..they can raid Joe’s house without a warrant…you may be comfortable with a police state and an out of balance and control Government I am not, we have just seen the tip of the iceberg in civil disobedience…do not blame the public…abuse of power means Rule without consensus….very very dangerous thin end of the wedge
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The decision to uphold the conviction was made by the Supreme Court. The cops might have bent the rules, but whatever admissible evidence there was, it was sufficient to convince the judges that Mr. Warren had committed the crime.
As Malcome Falle said, it’s the lower echelons who are getting all the flak, yet the Police Legal Adviser, Crown Offices et al accepted some if not all of the evidence and this was sufficient to have the appeal thrown out.
I hear that there is some suggestion that the defence lawyer is now considering an appeal to the European Court of Human Rights. I expect they will also uphold the conviction.
There was no planting of evidence and no entrapment; the issue as I understand it, was there was no authority for audio surveillance -a tracker, bug or whatever. The judge in Jersey and more recently the judges of the Supreme Court, decided not to exclude at least some of the evidence that was obtained. This was sufficient to convince them he was guilty.
Highly professional and highly qualifed judges are unlikely to have come to this decision, unless in their view it was lawful. I suppose the defence lawyer and numerous contributors on this discussion board, think they know better – so be it. The fact is Curtis Warren is still banged up.
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There seems to be some confusion as to how legal appeals work…
The appeal is on a technical legal issue which has not already been reviewed by a lower Court, this does not mean that a Court in England and Wales would have reached the same verdict as was reached in the Jersey Court.
The lawyers for Warren will have saved the most compelling arguments for the hearing in the European Court of Human Rights which can only hear issues which have not already been determined by lower courts…. you must have Grounds for Appeal.
It would actually have been better in the long run if the conviction had been overturned at this stage as that would have prevented the matter from going further to a higher court where different rules apply.
The very existence of the positions of Bailiff and Jurat do not comply with the ECHR and on that basis alone the case might be overturned.
I think the UK has left Jersey to the slaughter on this matter.
I can hardly see French, Belgian and Dutch judges taking the violation of their national sovereignty with the same disregard that a UK judge might.
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@26
“who ruthlessly commanded a gang of thugs, mainly to deter any competition to their monopoly, and you compare them with a government that only wants to protect its people”
I’m lost who was comparing Jersey’s government to a government that follows its own laws?
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truthseeker#31
You say I may not be able to recognise an evil drugs baron.
That’s your opinion, based on your opinion, and as per usual no facts.
You in your #22 dribble call Warren “someone who sells basically mood altering herbs”
In 1983, he was jailed for five years for armed robbery
On 24 October 1996, Brigade Speciale Beveiligingsopdrachten raided Warren’s villa, and other property he owned in the Netherlands. Warren and several associates were arrested, with police finding three guns, ammunition; hand grenades, crates with 960 CS gas canisters, 400 kilograms (880 lb) of cocaine, 1,500 kilograms (3,300 lb) of cannabis resin, 60 kilograms (130 lb) of heroin, 50 kilograms (110 lb) of ecstasy, and 400,000 Dutch guilder plus 600,000 US Dollars in cash. The whole haul was estimated to be worth £125 million.
On 15 September 1999 Warren had a fight in the prison yard with Turkish national Kemal Guclu,, a short fight ensued, during which Guclu fell to the ground, and Warren kicked him in the head 4 times, Guclu got up and went for Warren and was again punched to the floor and became unconscious, from which Guclu never recovered and died in a pool of blood on prison yard floor.
All this was before he turned his attention to Jersey
Although not completely condoning their actions I do have some sympathy that the Jersey police wanted to protect such as you and me from this gangster, they succeeded, and for that I thank them!
I think my, according to you, “amateur dramatic hysterical” use of “evil drugs baron” was nearer the mark than your” someone who sells basically mood altering herbs “is, dont you?
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33blue knight there you go again showing your prejudiced cop thinking “The cops might have bent the rules” there is no might in it,the BROKE not bent the law…you try saying when stopped for doing 50mph…well guv I wuz just bendin’ the law a teensie bit…”Your’e nicked…would be the reply…so let’s not have any more of this lopsided bigotted gang thinking…you are not one of us,do noot live here….why don’t you dump your blinkered thinking on your local blog
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James Wiley # 34. Why would the U.K. lead Jersey to the slaughter on this matter? Surely the Judges of the Supreme Court, would have taken into consideration the ‘violation’ of the named countries’ laws, on covert surveillance.
We are examining the judgement of highly respected, highly qualified and highly experienced Judges. Surely you don’t think they are going to make a judgement, without taking into consideration the likelihood of the matter being referred to the E.C.H.R.(We will of course have to be patient and wait to see the written judgement, or a synopsis to see their reasoning).
I of course understand that society (including the police) must abide by rules; unfortunately Mr. Warren doesn’t.
The law says he shouldn’t deal in drugs or harm other people, but he has a well published history of doing so.
Despite this there is a clique of people involved in this debate, who continually refer to the ‘evil’ police officers, who allegedly acted wrongly in bringing Mr. Warren to book.
There has been no suggestion of evidence being planted by the police, or that they were involved in entrapment. Furthermore there has been no suggestion of any incitement by the police officers involved, which encouraged the offenders to act in the way they did, i.e. to conspire to import drugs into the island.
If there was any evidence of this, I am sure the Judges of the Supreme Court would have allowed the appeal and quashed the conviction.
If a police officer or police officers lied, why haven’t they been charged with perjury? What haven’t they been prosecuted for perverting the course of justice? (I can just see some of the aforementioned clique’s remarks now, along the lines of the devil looks after his own, ya, de, ya, de, ya).
Finally, it wasn’t only the States of Jersey Police that was involved; they would have acted under the guidance of the island’s Crown Officers and the U.K.’s Serious Organised Crime Agency. Why aren’t people criticising their involvement?
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Blue Knight #33 How selective you are but what can you expect from a copper in Jersey. Just to recap a small, very small part of the judgement which was also reinforced by all of the judges – “The Board stresses its condemnation of the police misconduct in this case. It was a sustained and deliberate act of law breaking.” ….. “The outcome of this appeal should not be seen to condone or overlook such behaviour. It should not be taken by Jersey police as any kind of signal that they can repeat this kind of conduct with impunity.” And it speaks volumes of the way that things have always been done in Jersey that both the Chief Minister and the Attorney General should laud the upholding of the conviction but fail completely to recognise the damning comments on the state of justice as practised by all of the authorities in Jersey. That’s the Jersey way.
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Great reporting by JEP. This appeal was not heard by the Supreme Court, the highest court in Britain. It was heard by the judicial committe of the Privy Council: the court of final appeal for UK overseas territories and Crown dependencies.
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Does the ECHR even have jurisdiction over here? My understanding was that the privy council is the highest Jersey cases can go.
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My dear Hedley # 39, unfortunately you have an advantage over me in that I haven’t seen the full news report of what the Judges said. If damning reports were made then I accept what you say, nevertheless the Judges rejected the appeal. Also as I said earlier, the U.K.’s Serious and Organised Crime Agency and the island’s Crown Officers also had some involvement in the investigation. Let’s stop just slagging Jersey’s Criminal Justice System – it’s not perfect, but tell me where it is?
If you are so annoyed with the Island’s authorites, there is a boat out in the morning so you can go in search of Utopia.
Jonty # 40 – Supreme Court or Privy Council; the Judges still found in favour of the prosecution. Nevertheless thanks for reminding us.
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“Does the ECHR even have jurisdiction over here? My understanding was that the privy council is the highest Jersey cases can go.”
I am not sure that it is possible for someone in Jersey to appeal to the ECHR in a Jersey case but the island has to comply with its judgements as the UK government signed on our behalf.
A example is here;
http://www.statesassembly.gov.je/documents/propositions/10520-11102-25112008.htm
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Well Blue Knight,
Jersey has been saying for some time it wants independence and I think the UK has decided to give Jersey a little taste of what independence truly means.
Jersey is an increasingly troublesome little backwater that has gotten ideas above its station and could do with being put back in its place.
He paid ten million Euros to the Dutch so it is not beyond the realms of possibility that he has more somewhere it seems unlikely he would give it all away just to shave a couple of years off his sentence.
The UK will end up with any proceeds of crime found as Jersey cannot have any call on it if the conviction is overturned.
Warren pays up the UK then gets a nice little compensation package, a legitimate retirement fund from Jersey with which to go straight. Everyone’s a winner… except us.
Jersey people have had the right since 1953 to take the UK to the European Court for Human Rights violations, since the introduction of the Human Rights Law the person now has to go through all the appeals which Warren has gone through before they can take the case. The Human Rights law actually made it more difficult for Jersey to wind up there but Warren has managed it and I think it is Syvret’s intention too.
See McGonnell vs. UK as an example of when Guernsey found itself in the court and when the ECHR told us the position of Bailiff was illegal.
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Some interesting comments from both sides of the spectrum.
However, wasn’t the defence lawyers opening statement to the court “My client IS AN INTERNATIONAL DRUG DEALER etc etc” – hardly the most convincing defence was it.
Probably find that over the years this chap got away with far more than he’s ever been convicted for, I for one won’t be shedding any crocodile tears for him or his ilk.
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What makes me laught is the belief that if some drugs are legalised, criminals will miraculously give up crime.
You could just imagine them deciding to go and look for a low paid ordinary 9-5 job. More likely they will move to a different area of crime, possibly one which impinges on you and me rather more than the cannabis scene does.
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C Le Verdic#46
Most of them study to join the legal profession while incarcerated.
Sort of natural progression.
Ps
Are those stubby fingers getting in the way again?
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Id like to say that I’d rather think of Jersey police bending the rules to catch the biggest gangster ever to come to jersey then to let him walk free becuase of red tape!
They had decisions to make at short notice, deciisions that were make or break to this arrest leading to a conviction.
That said. We have to be very careful, as this a) gives out the impression the the rest of the UK that we are out of control (like that didnt think that already)
b) the whopping bill we will get if he does end up being released on a second appeal!
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Curtis Warren is no angel. However, that does not excuse SOJP for breaking the law.
If they were allowed to do this in order to obtain a conviction, then they would do so at their lesuire and we would all be in trouble.
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I also have a very funny feeling he will go to the european court, get away with it and Jersey folk will hae to foot the bill for everything. it will be millions.
I have this funny feeling because Europe are taking a big stance with human rights and laws, They don’t like the way the UK deals with criminals in court and they don’t like the idea the police can be accused with in a lot of peoples eyes with corrupt use of evidence.
They will say you can’t use illegal evidence to convict someone regardless who they are or what there past is, Europe passed that law a couple of years ago, basically if a person stole 1 million and got caught and convicted and put in prison, they get caught doing the same thing again, they can not use the previous conviction in the newer case! Due to human rights. Crazy but true.
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@49. Curtis Warren is no angel.
Quite possibly the biggest understatement yet. This is a guy who has made £100million selling drugs, and once kicked a man to death.
Saying CW is no angel is like saying Pol Pot was misunderstood!
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Most of them study to join amnesty international .
Sort of natural progression.
PJG
Are those over-used and misinformed fingers getting in the way again?
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Ah, this brings back fond memories……I wonder if the Jersey law officers, notionally (ahem) “accountable” to the crown, will take any notice of the comments made by the court. After all, the process of (ahem) “facilitating” little things like regulatory laws is a well established practice so why draw the line at all!? Will anything be learnt? We collectively wait with interest.
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Clearly the vast majority of comments on this forum have just read what has been put in the papers.
If you had bothered to follow or attend the trial and then read the Privy Council report dismissing the appeal you will know that he cannot appeal to the ECHR.
He is where he should be and where he will stay.
The police did a job that few other jurisdictions could probably have done. Leave them alone and be grateful that they put a bad man behind bars.
Good policing never makes for good press.
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Looks like the crime control has surpassed due process. One for the law lecturers and no doubt something which the next Royal Commission on Criminal Justice will pick up upon. Perhaps the decision will prompt the States to tighten up the laws governing police procedures nad practice.
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Number 3 above:
“Who cares if the police disregard their own rules as long as a conviction is made.”
Well, I don’t either really. But you might do if, for example, you were wrongly accused of something and the police, by failing to allow you access to legal advice or some silly, trifling, little thing like that, managed to secure a conviction. Then again, you might not mind as you sit in your cell reflecting on the matter.
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Belmont Bookie # 53. You pseudonym relates to an incident from another era where the circumstances were entirely different. The accused in the case in the 80s was acquitted following his appeal – Mr. Warren wasn’t. The officers involved in the case in the 80s were prosecuted and acquitted – nobody involved in the Warren case has been indicted.
The ‘facilitating’ you allude to, in the latest case involved other police jurisdictions and there were no allegations the evidence at the trial was fabricated.What the Jersey cops did was mislead the authorities in Holland, Belgium and France – not the court. As I read it the cops in this case conceded their misdeeds in court, otherwise they would have wound up being charged with perjury or attempting to, or perverting the course of justice. What they did was wrong, but it was in a different league.
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Given up#54
“he cannot appeal to the ECHR”
A very interesting comment! Can you please expand?
In This particular case I hope you are correct
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“What makes me laugh is the belief that if some drugs are legalised, criminals will miraculously give up crime.”
Perhaps, perhaps not. But if you legalised drugs there would be a whole area of “access to easy money” that would no longer attract people into drugs. For as long as you can buy drugs in one place for £1,000 and sell them in Jersey for £10,000, there will be no shortage of people – usually young, impressionable males – who see selling drugs as a viable career path. The people I know who got into selling drugs (and who are now dead) did so at the age of 17/18. Perhaps they were never going to have a conventional career. But the lure of “easy money” to an impressionable mind was irresistable.
My priority would be to protect local youngsters from contact with nasty career criminals. Without the money that can be made from drugs people like Curtis Warren would never even think of coming to Jersey.
Legalie it, tax it, reduce the harm it causes.
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Gail Grimsby-Trawler#52
“PJG
Are those over-used and misinformed fingers getting in the way again?”
Of what, pray?
What does one have to study to become a member of Amnesty Int?
I would have thought about as little as a deck hand on a Grimsby Trawler has to study?
Deep it may be but a thought process is not obligatory.
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Blue Knight what happens if Curtis Warren finally ends up being acquitted due to the way the evidence was obtained? What would be your opinion then?
From what I have read it doesn’t look good.
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@54
You are guilty as charged. You do not understand the legal process. He may be prevented from appealing to the ECHR on the same point of law, but there are many points of law which he can yet appeal on.
Plus at the ECHR he can bring new claims against the UK for not enforcing the Convention on Jersey properly and we all know that Jersey is non-compliant with the convention, the Crown Officers told us so less than six months ago and even told us they did not have time to sort it out.
Do you seriously think that the law is going to stop lawyers from representing a client who can still afford to pay fees?
All this does is give the UK a couple more years to find his money.
Ultimately, a good policeman would never need to break the law to secure a conviction and a policeman who was upholding his oath of office would never break the law.
Consider the phrase, let he who is without sin cast the first stone, and you might understand why police cannot break laws.
By breaking the law themselves police surrender their moral right to enforce those laws.
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Adrian 61.
This is exactly what I think. I’ve read the book “Cocky”, about Warren, and from page 1 – the end, it’s just crime after crime. If he walked free, there’d be uproar.
I would like to think this sends out the message “Do not mess with Jersey”
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Jersey`s Police have done wrong, irrespective of Curtis Warren`s history, if there is any true justice in this world then there has to be action taken against SOJP officers who offended, if not, then the law is a joke.
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The law applies to all and what the SOJP did was clearly against the law, it matters not what Curtis did or did not do the SOJP are not above the law. We make not like it but Curtis should walk.
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63 Let there be uproar who cares..what is at stake here is way more important than anything Curtiss has done.or may do…Our whole Law and respect for it is compromised…it is unnaceptable to prosecute on contaminated evidence where entrapment and law breaking has taken place…otherwise we just have the equivalent of an early frontier town sheriff and his cronies deciding who is in favour and who the “Law” should be used against.This strikes at the heart of democracy ,good governance,and justice….very bad day for all of us.
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What seems to be being missed here is the fact that the Jersey Police acted in Europe without the necessary permissions in place, not by breaking laws. Yes, there are laws in place which govern the use of bugging and whilst the police clearly had permission to ‘track’ the vehicle they didn’t have permission to listen.
There is nothing in place in these countries that actually makes it an offence to proceed without permission; hence the ‘rules’ that govern such activity serve to underpin any evidence obtained in respect of admissibility in a court of law.
For those of you who have followed the case closely you’ll know that the various courts have heard how the Jersey Police knew the risk they were taking and not having been able to get all the necessary permissions from Europe due to bureaucractic procedure and urgency, they went ahead and took a gamble. Indeed they were wholly open about what had happened saying before they even did it that the courts would have to decide in the future on the admissibility of any evidence obtained.
Interestingly, the Dutch when they found out, told the Crown and the police to go ahead and test the evidence in court.
There was no entrapment, no inducement, no falsification of evidence just some lawfully audacious decision making.
My hat goes off to the SOJP and particularly whilst some senior members of the Crown tend to be stepping away from ownership of action in which they were clearly complicit.
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The police have a duty to protect the public, and that includes, career criminal millionaires from flooding the place with dangerous drugs. The Law is their set of tools to do that. There are circumstances where bugging device can be used and “authority” needs to be obtained. Sometimes the chance passes and the authority cannot be obtained because events are moving so fast. The police took legal advice, they also, in the interest of their duty to the public made a judgement under very specific circumstances. Sometimes to have any chance of success you have to make a judgment and take a chance. As the new “Jobsworth” Chief Officer has said publicly, “it won’t happen again.” I guess you self proclaimed “moral” judges can sleep a little more soundly in your beds, as can the top flying criminals. Hope you’re happy with that now.
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“it is unnaceptable to prosecute on contaminated evidence where entrapment and law breaking has taken place”
Rubbish. It is unacceptable to use evidence when there is a doubt that the evidence is credible. But there was no entrapment here, no doubt the evidence was accurate. If there is unambiguous evidence of criminality in any context, that evidence should be admissible. If it was obtained illegally, that is a separate issue.
But the real issue is simple: should guilty people be allowed to walk on a technicality?
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The old one again there is a boat out in the morning always the jersey solution.
Jersey police should lead by example full stop.
After all the hollabloo about warren drugs still flooding island.
As jersey seem to make their own laws why don’t they bring back the death penalty for drugsmuggling scum
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Interesting DogsBody,(No68)that you have the measure of ‘jobsworth’ master of ceremonies ‘Gameshow Mike’ already. (As have many of his workforce…… we’ll have horses and braid next!!!!)
Have any observed the skin deep sincerity of our Home Affairs Minister who initially was publicly in tune with your views on the actions of the police on legal advice, time constraints and the interests of island security.
Boy!! he’s changed his tune…clearly like the gameshow contender, ….not the stand to take!
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John and Dog’s Body 67 & 68. Spot on folks; it was an important operation made more complex by having to deal with foreign jurisdictions.
It is easy for spectators to criticse, but the officers concerned were faced with difficult decisions and the problems they faced were compounded by the brief window of opportunity in which they could carry out their task.
One wonders if there would as much criticism if the sureveillance was linked to protecting a person’s life and the restirctions imposed by the foreign jurisdictions put someone’s life in danger.
The police do a difficult job and the officers involved did their best to bring a hardened criminal to book and to prevent illegal drungs getting into the island. Whilst the police didn’t stick to the rules, the Judges of the Privy Council believed there was sufficient evidence to prove the offenders had committed the crimes as alleged.
A famous World War II hero, Douglas Bader, is reputed to have said, “Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.”
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“Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.”
Anyone who gets caught speeding etc., advise the copper of the above and see what happens!
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Dave # 73. I know ; I’ve just been caught doing 35 in a 30 mph zone. I can avoid a fine an penalty points by doing a course that will cost me £85. I was caught by a camera van operated by a civilian working for a private company contracted to the police. Even the course is run by ex-cops who have a private company.
If your caught speeding in Jersey someone actually speaks to you and and he / she has the option of giving you words of advice that costs nothing – that is unless you become gobby and have an attitude problem.
With the quote from Douglas Bader, I anticipated there would be some who would take things too literally….oh well. How about this one, “Bureaucracy is the art if making what is normally possible; impossible.”
The rules breached by the cops was linked to an accused’s privacy. There no crime in the normal sense of the word – no theft,no planting of evidence, no physical attack, no smuggling of drugs. It was an infingement of a person’s privacy. I just folk would look at this case in perspective.
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Who cares how they got him, the right result was obtained. The law protects the offender far too much already, good to see the bad guy get it.
How many times do decent people suffer because the law doesn’t protect them when their homes are violated – Tony Martin for example, poor man spent 3 years incarcerated with the very people he was trying to keep out of his home.
As far as I’m concerned this man should never get out, surely no one thinks he will get a proper job when he is released, no he’ll just be making more people suffer.
I’m all for harsher sentances, more power to the police, the right to protect your home & family.
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Blue Knight – I must admit I have mixed feelings about this. The laws in Europe seem irrational regarding bugging – using a tracking device is ok but using a microphone contravens human rights, and why should suspects have these rights anyway?
The courts did everyone a favour convicting Warren, but as said at the Jersey appeal and Privy Council appeal, the police did deliberately break the law, and without the illegally obtained information there would be no case.
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@74
We are looking at this case in perspective. This is the one chance for Jersey residents to see some sort of controls placed on the Police.
I note you are not a Jersey resident and therefore may not be aware of the huge number of problems which exist in our Criminal Justice system.
He wouldn’t be my choice of hero but Warren has time on his hands and he will I hope take it all the way.
If he walks free then I am sure he will do something else and they can catch him for that but if he can instrument changes which will benefit ordinary innocent people then I’m happy to see him back out of prison.
It is better that 99 guilty men walk free than 1 innocent man is imprisoned.
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I believe that what has happened here is analagous to the so-called “noble cuase corruption” whereby metropolitan officers would collude and compare pocket book entries in order to promote a conviction. Here we have another form of corruption, ostensibly towards a good end but where does that leave the probity of the police?
We know that, so far as comity and mutual assitance is concerned, the French authorities will be slow to trust us again.
There is one other thing. Someone above mentioned “facilitating” a breach of regulatory laws. This means, in effect, that the law is applied or disapplied according to who you are. A case in hand is the electoral form cases, where two persons were prosecuted but the attorney general failed, by all accounts, to pursue others for the same pattern of behaviour.
In this case, the police broke the law and rightly or wrongly will face little or no sanction. For the rest of us, with a few exceptions for those with influential allies, the full force of the law is generally brought to bear. The type of state offending which we now see is a symptom of what has become an unaccountable state. Goodness knows what the Privy Counsellors thought they were doing. Despite their weasel and ineffectual words of disapproval, they have set a particularly dangerous precedent. I, by the way, used to advise a police force so I have some working knowledge of cultural and operation values within a force.
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“Blue Knight – I must admit I have mixed feelings about this. The laws in Europe seem irrational regarding bugging – using a tracking device is ok but using a microphone contravenes human rights, and why should suspects have these rights anyway?”
Bugging telephones or recording conversations has the potential to collect sensitive information on third parties that are not party to the crime.
Some of this unrelated information could them make its way into the press and this would be a violation of their right to privacy
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No. 79. What you say is true, but a tracking device could also implicate third parties not connected with the crime, for example visiting an unconnected person’s house, and that could make its way into the press.
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Hannah # 78. You mention the term ‘noble cause corruption’, however no false evidence was presented at the trial. As I understand it, the officers disclosed what they had done. You have also overlooked the point that a Crown Advocate evidently gave his tacit agreement to what the police planned to do.
Furthermore officers concocting or planting evidence, or colluding to make false entires in note books, is hardly the same as what occurred in this case.
It’s all very well for ‘arm chair advisors’ (myself included) to give their views, however the authorities were dealing with a highly experienced and hardened criminal – not the boy scouts. Despite this some of the above commentators appear to be taking the moral high ground. Yet as I mentioned in an earlier entry, maybe there would be a different view if the covert surveillance in Holland, Belgium and France, related to someone’s personal safety. What if instead of planning to import drugs, the conspititors intended to do physical harm to someone who you loved? Would you still take the moral high ground then?
Remember drugs have the potential to harm people – do you want one of your loved ones to be harmed by drugs? (I’ll await the pro-drugs comments with interest)
I respect other’s opinions and I just ask you to respect mine, even though they may be different to yours.
James # 77 There will always be bad eggs in the police as there are in all professions – I have read in the J.E.P. in the last week, that a G.P. has been struck off and a lawyer appeared in court on charges of fraud. This is a reflection of the society in which they operate – this has occurred since time immemorial. Indeed my local newspaper reported in the past month, that a police officer had been indicted for committing a serious crime. Also they reported that a group of lawyers have been prosecuted for mortgage fraud. I imagine this sort of thing occurs in many parts of the world.
Pip # 79 – I also have mixed views on the rights and wrongs on the laws on surveillance. Maybe if we were having this conversation 15 or 20 years ago, things would be different as I don’t believe this restrictive legislation applied. It certainly didn’t exist in Jersey in those days. It’s all come about since so called human rights and political correctness have become more prominent.
Whilst totally supporting the concept of rights, I believe they have gone too far and made it more difficult to prevent and detect crime.
Remember what I said earlier,’Bureaucracy is the art of making what is normally possible; impossible’. It clogs up administration not only in the police but in government too. All this all adds to the drain on the economy – but that’s another story.
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I watched a documentary a few days ago that highlighted illegal actions by the police and the convictions that they had resulted in. Some of these went back quite a long time (Birmingham six, Guildford four etc) but some were more recent.
Whilst I do not necessarily believe that Warren is innocent, I would rather see him go free than set a precedent whereby illegally obtained evidence can be used at trial.
As for Blue Knight, you seem to embody everything that is wrong with the police force. Suspects have no rights, bang ‘em all up, don’t dare criticise the Police they do a wonderful job blah blah blah blah blah. Very very boring I’m afraid, can’t you go and direct some traffic somewhere?
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Phil # 82. Nowhere have I ever said, “Suspects have no rights.” Furthermore over the years I have been one of the biggest critics of the police, as I don’t wear rose tinted glasses.In the case of Mr. Warren however, I don’t believe the police went too far off course. What they did wasn’t entirely kosha, but they revealed their misdeeds to the Courts – the criminals endeavoured to conceal theirs and that signifies guilty knowledge to most people.
The issue with rights, is that too frequently give more rights to the criminal than they do to victims of crime.
As for directing traffic; thankfully I have retired. I’d rather participate in cyber debates
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