2

They are still cheap

And where were you when the proposition to increase GST was passed Senator Shenton?

I don’t remember you asking for green and white papers on that one.

It seems to me any swingeing increases are fine in this island as long as they affect the masses and not the well off.

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4

steve

@2 they are still cheap (no they’re not!)

Actually these do affect the masses, over 40% of parents, not a small minority.

Pete – maybe you should consider the many millions of pounds paid by parents already that taxpayers dont have to cough up. Sure you’d moan if this financial burden was passed onto the taxpayer!

Fact is with nearly half of school children attending these schools, the subsidies should be maintained if not increased especially given the outstanding success they achieve. A worthy investment by the Island

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6

moo

Why do people not get this? The biggest single factor affecting educational success in the UK is social class. Shameful I agree but research proves it’s still true. So the schools which take the greater proportion of middle/upper class kids get the best results. If they throw in a selection test too, so they’re getting brighter as well as posher kids, they get even better results.
All very well. Good luck to them you might say but what about the rest of us? We are subsidising the offspring of folks richer than us to go to schools we can’t afford for our own kids, whilst making sure that the status quo is maintained and our kids don’t get a level playing field, don’t get an equal chance.Which in turn perpetuates the class ridden system.
I say get rid of the subsidies entirely.Those who can afford a UK mainland priced private education will do so. Those who can’t or don’t want to will join the rest of us.With a better social and ability mix our 11-16 schools will flourish.And we’ll all be winners. If it costs a bit more it’s worth it as far as I’m concerned, as my kids will finally get the equal chances they deserve.

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8

Hedinda Sands

Hi Moo#6 & Boyo#7,
Life should be fairer but it is not fair and never will be.

We are all born with different innate capabilities which are then brought out (or even damaged) differently by different parents and different circumstances

Our physical appearance actually has a disproportionate effect on our average life chances – it is not fair but it is life.

In the extreme children will not get truly equal chances unless we brain damage them equally, give them normalising plastic surgery, equally damage their social skills and give them an institutionalised upbringing away from the unfairness of their parents [& issue lodge membership at birth ?]
-This is obviously an Orwellian nightmare, but hopefully you take my point, there will always be the more fortunate and the less fortunate.

Life CAN be fairer but lets concentrate on IMPROVING the chances of the less fortunate

I believe that, amongst other things, it is the dogmatic and excessively PC approach of educationalists (& possibly yourselves) that has so damaged state education over the last three or four decades.

A pragmatic (results and effectiveness based) approach is what is needed
If it AIN’T BROKE don’t FIX IT.
&
If it is broke, DO fix it !!!!
Doh !

Now (for example), which is showing signs of being broken
De la Salle or Haute Vallee ???
(at least in terms of results and probably CVA also)
Hautlieu is not failing but could probably do even better.

I felt physically sick when the school results were finally published – it is indicative of children being failed by a department that is not fit for purpose

moo says “With a better social and ability mix our 11-16 schools will flourish” -YOU HOPE !
- So let’s re-visit the failed concept of Comprehensivisation.
Lowest common denominator is a basic social concept as well as a mathematical one.
I feel physically sick by the suggestion (in it’s various guises) that the CHILDREN who want to work should moderate the behaviour and learning of those who don’t -this is not their JOB (think fairness !!).

-There is a group of ADULTS who are PAID to do this – they are called TEACHERS and they are managed (or is it mismanaged?) by a big and well paid civil service department. (think value for money)

There are many valid interpretations of fairness
“get rid of the subsidies entirely” you say.
According to Shenton each of your children is subsidised by £7,956 per year
OK – scrap it or give my children the same – that is FAIR.

The maths are simple and printed in black and white:
WE are subsidising YOU – period.
Why do SOME people not get this?

We do “GET” the bit about social class – and yes it is sick
Cant you get the bit about Comprehensivisation (& even continuous assessment) DAMAGING social mobility ?
- beware the law of unintended consequences !!!

Don’t get fobbed off by your school – make them do better – if you have capabilities, get on the PTA and help them do better.
Hastle your states members – demand better – you and your children deserve better.

look at http://www.thisisjersey.com/2011/03/02/uk-shuts-down-schools-with-results-like-these/

Paddington Academy – Inspiring improvements – it can be done !

“Shenton will never be the man his father was” – is that good news ?

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10

Sarah

We all pay for state schools. Parents who send their children to fee paying schools (which are state schools with a top up from the parents) are at least paying something towards their offspring.

parents who send their children to states schools should be means tested and should contribute towards the education. I am a taxpayer; why should I pay for their children? As Boyo said, make them pay for it.

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12

Chesney Hawkes

Hedinda.

Just read all of your ‘comments’. Your pseudonym is spot on. Head in the clouds as well as the sand.

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14

Warren J

This is all getting very boring and we are going round in circles re States v Fee Paying schools.

The fact is that for a variety of reasons,the results from the States sector could be better, despite the massive investment in the States sector. So here are some ideas !

Firstly, remove the safety net of benefits so if you leave school without a job to go to, you have no money. Also, explain to pupils what is trying to be achieved by educating them. It is not always obvious, when you are 11 and as in my case was struggling with French, only to be given German as well !!! ( 40 years later, the closest that I have got to Germany is when driving my German made cars !)

Secondly, review the performance of pupils and those who clearly show no acedemic promise, offer them an alternative, as young as 12 or 13 – Start learing a trade – Plumbing, Motor Mechanic, paining / building. This would save them 3 years of doing what they don’t want to do, leave school with nothing and then turn to crime ! In learning a trade, they would then understand the value of basic maths and literature.

As a taxpayer who also pays school fees, as a society, we need to be receiving a decent return on our investment in Education, and I am not convinced we currentlty are.

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16

moo

@9 Rick -One person’s view of “well-off” is different from another’s and maybe only a very few people actually feel rich. But many of us drive old cars, don’t have ski-ing holidays etc and still couldn’t possibly afford a place at a fee paying/private school, let alone private health care. And of course we also care about our children which is why we want them to have a fair chance at education, along with everybody else. I agree with your last comment though, we are also thinking of going elsewhere- but in order to find an education system not based on snobbery.
@10 Sarah , as you say, we all pay for schools through taxes, according to how much we earn so we are already contributing to our children’s education in a means tested way.It’s called society. Some people wish to opt out of this and go private -let them- but don’t ask us to subsidise it. That’s all.
@8 Hedinda Sands. Had you been drinking when you wrote your post? It’s quite fragmented and rambling, but I think you accused me and others of wanting to drag all childen down to the lowest common denominator. Nothing could be further from the truth. I want the highest possible standards, for ALL children. And I don’t think this can be acheived under the present socially devisive system. That is my opinion. I agree with you about Paddington Academy and there are many other examples like this in the UK but they are NOT in areas where 40% of parents go private.But then there are no such areas because there are no subsidies.

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18

Albert

This green eyed monster class war stuff will just go on and on and those who want to moan have minds that are closed to the fact that these fee paying schools costs the taxpayer exactly the same per pupil as a state pupil and the parent pay towards the schools as well, which is more than state school parents do. They want us to pay for their children though, while they make no payment of their own. Sorry, but you have to wonder.

To get back to the point (if anyone wants to see it) all that Shenton is saying is that the matter should be looked at properly before a well functioning system is disturbed. What’s wrong with that, particularly given that Deputy Reed has a parish mandate, I understand of about 350 and he doesn’t seem to me to know what he doing. And in case anyone asks, no, I don’t have any children at fee paying state schools, neither did I go to one myself. Live and let live, eh!?

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20

Hedinda Sands

Hi Moo#16
“Had you been drinking” ? -I love it! – well yes actually -but sadly only tea on this occasion
“fragmented and rambling” – that might be the oxygen starvation at birth or one of the later incidents.
I sometimes try to cover a lot of ground in my posts so thank you for baring with me to the end.
I don’t think I accused you of dragging (or drinking !)
Thank you for being more cerebral than “Chesney Hawkes” at #12, who was having a shallow and blond moment.
Those “40% kids” perhaps have an unfair advantage as their parents give a toss – as YOU obviously do too – which actually would give YOUR kids an unfair advantage (fact?)

Make us some “Paddington Academies” on Jersey – We would be in the Q, Imagine your satisfaction on turning us away.

To make these “Paddington Academies” why do you need the 40% – are the teachers incapable of doing their jobs without help from the “40% kids” – please explain it to me.
Make the school and half of that 40% will trickle back of their own free will.

What are your views on Hautlieu ?
Is it elitist or does it give smart kids from poor families a chance ?

Finally, at the risk of repeating myself:
WE are subsidising YOU.
£7,956 per year vs. ~£2k to £4.5k (depending on which school)
Do you get the maths ?
[take note Sandra #15]

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22

Moo

@17,Simon,I think you have a point. The system needs an overhaul as it is not producing good outcomes for all.You suggest every parent paying something on top of their taxes. I know of no society in the western world where all schools are fee paying. The Euoropen country considered to have the best eduction, with the highest outcomes is Finlnd. There, private schools are not allowed, so all memebers of society invest both through taxes and through their children, in the State system.As a result the state schols are excellent. Techers must have Masters degrees, are well paid and respected and much is expected of them in return.
Perhaps if we are going to change our system, we should look at the best model.Just a thought…
Hope the relevant Minister reads this too.

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24

boyo

Emily
Posted May 2, 2011 at 3:37 pm
@7 – is there not tax relief on private healthcare, though? there is none on school fees

You DON’T PAY GST!!
That IS tax relief!!!!!!!

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26

Toastedteacakes

How long are we going to put up with those who milk the system and yet moan and complain and turn green with envy when they see hard working perants sending their children to fee paying schools.

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28

Simon

Good point Moo. It would be nice to see it happen, but when dealing with ideals, it never seems to reach the utopia. Any private social structure (be it education or, worse still health) is potentially a problem. Let’s hope that the powers that be do take notice. At least you would appear to understand how the system works.

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30

Victoria Avenue

Sandra #15

Well put. A very clear expalnation of the bleedin’ obvious.

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32

The Jersey Bull

Senator Ben Shenton, like all politicians, is probably attempting to hide his own self interests and personal agenda behind a false facade of apparent care concerning the issue of continuing public funding support for semi private schools mentioned in the article.

I suggest this, because If the senator or any other politician on this Island for that matter was truly concerned with the awful mess representing itself today as our public system of education, they would immediately propose and enact some kind of constitutional amendment to declare an absolute “Separation between State and Education”.

Here in jersey we have a ‘Department that calls itself ‘Education, Sport & Culture’, which immediately begs the question, “why not recognise ‘Culture’ before and above ‘Sport’?”

Unable to cut a miserly 2% out of its £100 million budget, this bloated, wasteful Department, has instead seized upon the opportunity to engage in ‘Class Warfare” as a means of protecting and perpetuating its unaccountable performance in serving the Island’s educational needs.

This seriously deficient Department, would rather cut funding to the better preforming schools, while it employs, at great public expense, an army of God’s knows how many Fitness Instructors, Exercise Consultants, Salsa Dance Instructors, Palates Instructors and or what ever flavour of the month instructor you fancy on an ‘Active Card’.

What business does Government have in involving itself in running a gym or messing about in the ‘fitness Industry’? None. Such activities should be part of a private volunteer community effort.

Naturally, the glassy eyed Liberals and regular community dividers living amongst us will refuse to recognise that Government involvement in the education system has all but undermined our society to the point of no return.

Hating our foundations, traditions and a culture of hard work, they turn for support to the early educational theorists like John Dewey and his myriad clones, such as Dr. Spock who taught us how to spoil kids, Timothy Leary, who taught spoiled kids how to do drugs and radical feminists like Andrea Dworkin, who pushed for welfare and abortion – all in a combined effort to aid in breaking up families.

They aided the institution of “no-fault divorce”, which converted the marriage contract into a worthless piece of paper. As a result, millions of husbands were often rendered penniless in “family” courts in a shortsighted national effort to “protect women and children.”

These liberal agents of change would insist upon doing away with any notion of people having to take the responsibility for raising themselves out of poverty and ignorance through plain hard work and study.

The net effect of these glassy eyed liberal elitists, working in tandem with the educational left, was to create walls of ignorance, prejudice and hatred that will now take decades to tear down.

With education now run and controlled by the State, we have a system that is stealthily preparing our children to become totally detached from any identifiable national or traditional interests. Preparing them instead to become part of a ‘world state’ – a unified and entirely artificial pseudo-civilization that has been conceived not as an expression of society, but as an instrument to be totally controlled by the Collective State!

At one time in life, education meant becoming a functional multifaceted individual with a vast array of talents that allowed one to traverse many different paths in life. Opening the way for one’s ambition and the right to choose to compete. thereby serving the common good”

Instead, what has become important to those controlling the public education system is nothing short of getting across the necessary amount of trivial, unsubstantiated, completely disconnected facts in order to have the students pass an exam that has been set to the lowest common denominator.

And by so preparing and cajoling the unsuspecting student into an unfulfilling single-faceted life by getting them to specialise in a single occupation, they are ultimately doomed to end up as a cog in some corporate assembly line. All in order to enable the total domination by the state over society, thus reducing the unsuspecting into a singular mechanical unit with no will of their own, apart from that of the Collective Progressive State to which they have enslaved themselves!

Jefferson, who despised Government intervention, said that ‘democracy is wholly unsuited for an uneducated mass.’ Therefore, in conclusion, I say that Education should be free from all Government interference and left in the hands of private professional educators and those dedicated institutions capable of providing such. With government doing no more than enforcing attendance until a certain age and by providing financial vouchers to parents and families to enable them to freely choose where and how they would like to have their children educated – thereby serving the common good by inducing competition into the system. If anyone is really serious about education, then let’s get the Government out of the picture!

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34

Hedinda Sands

#32 !!!!!!!!
————————————
…………..composure regained.
———————————–
Once you have edited out some of the more odious opinions expressed by “The Jersey Bull” there is actually some thought provoking stuff there.

Some of it will take more evaluation than my slow wit can currently manage but the “financial vouchers”, would probably actually provide ALL with an improvement over what we have at the moment. In the real world £7,956 per year actually buys a good deal of quality education !

Some may think that The Jersey Bull is a fascist.

I am not so sure – I think that he may actually be a FEUDALIST
-ref. his comments elsewhere: “put a peasant on a horse and he or she will ride for the devil”

So it is a relief to me that he believes that us peasants need or deserve an eduction.

I am still wondering from “The Jersey Bull’s” comment regarding victims of childhood abuse #29 at:
http://www.thisisjersey.com/2011/03/03/senator-wins-full-child-abuse-inquiry
“……the false compensation hopes of some baron quantity of flat out losers, all of whom are hell bent upon finding someone to blame for their own weak kneed chronic failures in life – any one, but themselves. …..”

Life has taught me to be patient for an answer on this,
-but I thought that the Divine right of the Lords (and their stewarts) to take their pleasure upon the plebs and their children, went out of favour (in most places) around the time of the Norman conquest.

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36

Hedinda Sands

Hi “Moo” #27
“parents giving a toss” does give an advantage – arguably comparable with that given social class (but we have all come across a number of ‘poor little rich girls/boys’)
Continuous assessment favours girls – more particularly continuous assessment favours the children of the more pro-active parents
Bizarrely, continuous assessment is socially divisive (like some other edu-dogma which looks so benign).
Virtually all parents care – some care more pro-actively – continuous assessment amplifies this effect even more sharply than examination based assessment.
Unfortunately, good parental input does not benefit every child equally – so by definition it is UNFAIR.
But , short of my “Orwellian nightmare” @8 -we just have to accept it.

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38

Bean There

I do not have children but pay my taxes.

Therefore I am subsidising all those in states schools to the tune of 8k per child – the clever ones, the not so clever ones and those who just muck about or can’t be bovvered….

I have a great and simple solution – sterilise everybody..

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40

Bel

I’m looking forward to taking my 3 childen out of private school, no more school fees, yippee.

I can give up work , maybe claim benefits and have an easy life for once! I will be better off in the long term and not have to work as hard as I do at present. Less Tax to pay. Even better, I should be entitled to a Grant for university fees, which currently I am not.

Maybe my children won’t achieve such good grades now they are to transfer to a States school but that doesn’t really matter as they too can claim benefits when they leave school with poor grades and can’t get a decent job.

Let’s not encourage people to work hard and better themselves – it really doesn’t pay. Our States members will make sure of that.

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42

Reality Check

Bel:

“Maybe my children won’t achieve such good grades now they are to transfer to a States school but that doesn’t really matter as they too can claim benefits when they leave school with poor grades and can’t get a decent job.”

Actually there are plenty of brilliantly successful students at the State schools, who don’t even transfer to Hautlieu at 14, whom I have taught and have gone on to become lawyers, architects, doctors and just damn good parents. Please don’t think that just because you don’t go to one of the elitest schools, you can’t succeed. That’s just plain rubbish. There are good teachers in every school on this island and supportive parents too.

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44

Hedinda Sands

Hi again “Moo” #39
Thanks for that info regarding phasing out of continuous assessment & course work .
I feel a bit silly if my info was out of date on this. However it does indicate that my judgement and opinion were bang on the money !
So did it take the edu-dogmatists about 20 years to work this out ? and what was the total GB financial and educational cost ?
- I wonder if I am a little bit right about anything else?

My point at #36 “…good parental input does not benefit every child equally – so by definition it is UNFAIR”
still stands and we do just have to accept it as part of life.

Make sure that you don’t only accept what benefits your own offspring while finding things UNFAIR if they appear to benefit only others.

Spare a thought for “Bel” #40 – do not destroy her family social mobility so that we end up with an even smaller empowered elite.

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46

Jono

He could always go to Finland

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48

Sheila Roper

I think that education over here needs changing. I have lived in the island for just over a year, having come over with my partner, who was brought in to work for a local company. There is an awful lot wrong with this place. The pillar boxes are the wrong shape and colour and I don’t like the exhaust fumes from the vans. Even the bicycles squeak, oh dear. They should abolish housing laws and makes sure that anyone can come in. It’s not a bad place, it just needs a campaigner like me to change it. All the laws are really awful and someone told me that you used not to be able to dance on Sundays and you had to paint your front door red (or was it green?). Anyway, it is quite dreadful and needs to be changed.

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50

Born Warrior

The Jersey Bull 32.

Am I to understand from your post that you dislike the Government (States of Jersey) and its policies?
Does that mean you dislike the people of Jersey too?

I was just wondering, because on another thread, you insinuated that one cannot hide one’s racist views behind the phrase: “I don’t hate the race, I just hate the respective State and her policies!”

Which I took as meaning that individuals who hate a specific Government and its policies, consequently hate the people of that State…am I right?

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52

brian cant

“I’m a lawyer and I went to d’Hautree. Who’d have thought it, eh?”

why do i think of Samuel Johnson:

“Sir, a woman’s preaching is like a dog’s walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all.”

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54

Moo

@ 47 Roger Phlegm.
“Evidence around the world shows that the best results – for both individuals and societies – come from an inclusive form of education that offers opportunities for all and then seperates out children according to their strengths at a later stage (between 14-16).”

Spot on. I agree entirely, despite being from the other side of the fee-paying divide and probably the political divide too.

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56

Toastedteacakes

Sheila No. 48 Kindly delay your campaigning for at least 5 years because Pillar Boxes being the wrong shape and colour will be the least of your concerns.

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58

Born Warrior

Hedinda Sands 32

Re: “Once you have edited out some of the more odious opinions expressed by “The Jersey Bull” there is actually some thought provoking stuff there.”

Of course there is, it’s straight out of Laigle’s Forum Education (Christian conservative activist). It was the “John Dewey and his myriad of clones” bit that gave him/her away…

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