Moving times for the animals
Tuesday 26th July 2011, 3:07PM BST.
Paul Wagstaffe of Nurture Ecology with a green lizard
WORK to demolish a rock face at Bellozanne could start next month after scores of protected creatures which used to live there were rehomed.
More than 80 green lizards, 36 slow worms, 125 wood mice, 27 bank voles, 26 lesser white-toothed shrews,15 Millet’s shrews and four toads have been relocated in what was the largest operation of its kind in Jersey. All but the wood mice are protected in Jersey under the Conservation of Wildlife (Jersey) Law 2000.
Nurture Ecology, on behalf of Transport and Technical Services, carried out intensive surveying and trapping work to relocate the protected wildlife between March and July this year. The work had to be carried out before the hillside, which is near where the old recycling centre used to be, can be demolished to make way for a sludge treatment facility.
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Now they have done an excellent job, and have gained invaluable experience, perhaps they can try their hand at relocating the sroungers who are niether working or have any intention of looking for any’
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And the people who relocated the animals went home to a lovely roast dinner safe in the knowledge that lives had been saved.
One form of life protected species, another evening meal – hypocrisy?
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2: eh?
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You can’t please moaners like that at number 2 (and in fact number 1 as well, not wishing to waste the opportunity to have a moan).
If you save lizards, they moan.
If you don’t save them, they moan.
If you eat them, they moan.
They moan regardless because they like to moan.
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Sorry thought my post was self explanatory – I’ll simplify.
As with the RSPCA worker who spends all day saving animals and then goes home and eats them. I feel that the hypocrisy inherant in the view that one animal is mans best friend and another is Sunday lunch is deeply flawed.
I respect all life, I don’t assign greater value to one form of life than another, it’s hyprocritical.
Just trying to make people consider the harm that they do without a thought.
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4. G
Stop moaning !
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To Veg E Tarian
You are my hero/heroine!
To Norman Conquest 6.
Stop moaning at ’4. G’ et al.
To myself
Create a thread called “Stop moaning at people moaning”…but then, would I be moaning about people moaning about people moaning?
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5 – vegie,
And yet, Humanity has either evolved to eat meat (as well as plant matter) or was created by a higher being with dominion over all animals depending on your belief. As such, it is your choice to eat animal products or not, but it cannot be considered “natural” to avoid it, and is a bit off to criticise anyone else that wishes to consume what God or millions of years of evolution has prescribed them to eat.
As Humanity, as a species, eats meat, it makes sense to only eat the meat that is managed when produced instead of helping themselves to the free ranging animals that have never been breed specifically to be consumed, like plants are… I am happy to eat chicken, beef, lamb, even kangaroo or crocodile if farmed, but not a wall lizard, or vole. Unless I was a mole herder and cooked them…
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Veg E Tarian
As with the RSPCA worker who spends all day saving animals and then goes home and eats them. I feel that the hypocrisy inherant in the view that one animal is mans best friend and another is Sunday lunch is deeply flawed.
I dont know of many cows/pigs/chickens been looked after at the animal shelter or am I missing the point somewhere!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Moaningoldbugger – you’re differentiating between one breed of animal and another as I’ve already said i don’t do.
Look it’s simple, do you beleive that all animals know fear, feel pain, if so is it acceptable that we force animals to endure fear and pain for a taste sensation. I beleive not, I’ve worked in a slaughterhouse and I know how animals suffer. I’ve seen chickens that were supposed to be stunned before killing not be stunned because it was quicker not to. I’ve wlaked through their sh*t as they are so scared of what’s to come they excrete in terror.
It was enough to force me to reconsider my diet, all animals are capable of knowing fear and feeling pain, I’m not hungry enough to foce them to endure that, whether the JSPCA rescues them or eats them I consider them to be of equal value.
As an aside do you know that meat production is responsible for over 90% of greenhouse gas, cars and planes don’t come close.
Eat animals if you wish but don’t tell me they don’t suffer for your pleasure.
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Seeing as there are billions of ways viral/bacterial/parasitic/fungal infections are trying to do away with me, I think it’s only fair that I can feed off whatever lifeforms take my fancy, like all other creatures out there in the food chain. It’s dog eat dog eat human isn’t it?
There’s a difference between neglected pets, endangered species and farm animals bred for the purpose that provide very many meals per animal (and other useful byproducts like leather).
If you want to point out hypocrisy, why do you happily relieve an animal of its unrecoverable suffering by putting it down, yet insist upon terminally ill people having to suffer terribly until the bitter end?
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So, Veg E Tarian, Despite your quote that “meat production is responsible for over 90% of greenhouse gas” being factually incorrect, your objection to the saving of endangered species is that your experience in a badly managed slaughterhouse made you aware that some organisms feel pain. You then raise the opinion that other people should not consume, for sustenance, any organism that can feel pain? and to do so is hypocrisy if they also try to aid other organisms to not feel pain?
Interesting if ill informed idea.
One would assume that you have drawn a line to state what living organisms can feel pain and which cannot? What forms of life you allow to suffer and what you do not?
So, Lets talk biology, consider an organism. It is known to react to both actual and potential tissue damage, by releasing hormones both to promote regeneration of damaged tissue and also in self defence, the organism also release hormones detectable and reacted upon by other organisms, even of other species, Does this sound like an accurate description of pain, suffering and its communication in biological terms?
Now, notice I have used the word “Organism” instead of “Animal”. This is deliberate, as the word “Plant” is also an accurate fit to the above description, and biologically, Plants react the same way as Animals to pain and suffering, they just cope with it differently as Animals can often move away.
In other, less scientific words, Plants are known to react to pain and suffering. This is simple fact. If you feel organism to be regarded much greater than another, why do you demote a plant to be unworthy? As acceptable to harm and cause undue suffering, yet feel that a farm breed chicken should not suffer?
A lack of knowledge is excusable, Hypocritical arguments when in possession of knowledge is not.
Either you are happy for something living to suffer, just for something to eat, or you starve.
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And the people who relocated the animals went home to a lovely roast veggie dinner safe in the knowledge that lives had been saved.
One form of life protected species, another evening meal – hypocrisy? Naaah!
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Thirtysomething – “You then raise the opinion that other people should not consume, for sustenance, any organism that can feel pain”?
No I didn’t say that, I said, Eat animals if you wish but don’t tell me they don’t suffer for your pleasure. My point being that you should be aware of the suffering you are causing. As for you desperate attempt to align the suffering of plants with that of animals. Animals have a brain, they can anticipate a situation before they react to it. This massively increases the suffering as they are aware of impending suffering, plants are not.
An example I witnessed in Cambodia when working for an aid agency is in some parts of the country dogs are eaten and sold on market stalls. They have their legs broken and are strung on a line waiting to have their heads cut off and be sold for meat. All dogs in the line can see the dogs at the end writhing and barking in terror in anticipation of their fate. They might die that day, perhaps the next, throughout the wait they are terrified, plants in the same situation would not be, they would simply be momentarily aware of the moment of death.
We are never going to agree because for us to do so would require an admission that what you are doing is fundamentally wrong, you willfully participate in the preventable suffering and death of a sentient creature. You can argue using plants as a life form for as long as you want but your point lacks substance. I’d respect you more if you had the stones to say “yes I eat meat, I love the stuff, you can’t beat biting into a juicy dead cow and have blood running down your chin”
I won’t be commenting further as there is little point, you either get it or you choose not to.
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Veg E Tarian
The world could not sustain itself if everyone became a vegetarian, fact.
And what about all the lovely old breeds of pigs, sheep, chickens etc that would go extinct if everyone became a vegetarian because they would not be bred any more.
Oh and please tell me do you eat eggs? If so I hate to shatter your dreamy illusions but as a keeper of free range pet chickens and ducks I know that they like nothing better than to hunt mice and eat them whole! Quite amusing to watch and very natural to them but it makes me laugh when veggies insist on free range eggs
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14; Good, because I don’t get.
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Veg E,
I have not disagreed with your opinion, only how you have reached such a conclusion, only to offer reasons why I feel you have not examined the situation from all sides. If you choose not to respond by explaining yourself fully, then I cannot stop you.
Frankly, I do not get it. How you claim that helping to save endangered species and eating meat is hypocritical. I do not choose not to, I just simply don’t understand how you come to such a conclusion.
It would be the same as saying that stopping the deforestation and exploitation of the Amazon and using toilet paper is hypocritical (being that chopping down endangered trees and wiping yourself with product from sustainable trees, grown specifically for toilet paper production.
To clarify,
in post 2, you claimed that it was hypocritical to save an endangered animal, but then to eat a domesticated animal specifically breed for a food source.
This comment has had almost everyone on this thread object to.
In post 4 you state you do not “assign greater value to one form of life than another, it’s hypocritical.”
And yet, later on, you describe how you feel that Animals are of a greater value to Plants.
In post 10, you explain that your experience in a slaughterhouse has changed your views. – (This is fair enough and fine for yourself.)
You also state that “animals are capable of knowing fear and feeling pain”
Now, I responded to simply point out that Plants feel pain and know fear. Despite your apparent lack of knowledge in this area, it is fact that they do, despite not “having a brain”. There is documented evidence of wheat plants releasing stress hormones when a combine harvester has started operating in another field close by, and stop releasing the same hormones when the harvester stops. Is this is not anticipation of pain, and reaction to it? Do you claim that only creatures with a brain can feel pain? Worms do not have brains, so do they feel pain if you stab a pin into them?
My comment is in response to yours, to point out that taking a moral ground on an arbatory and incorrect concept is wrong.
It would be like me saying that the Endangered Lizards saved in the topic of this article feel pain, but chickens do not, and so are OK to eat… Or, heavens forbid, we go back a hundred years and say, Animals don’t have a soul so are Ok to eat, or that Puffins are part Fish or any of that outdated nonsense.
If you have had bad experiences with the treatment of domestic animals, that’s fine, do something about that, but do not criticise others for enjoyment of a natural function.
I do agree that suffering of animals needlessly is wrong, but that is why there are regulations in place in the western world to limit it as much as possible. If you have worked in a slaughterhouse and the management did not confirm to the legal requirements, then you should have reported this. If you feel that another culture has a different attitude, then why should that affect this culture? Some cultures force women into servitude, hiding their faces in public and treating them as second class humans. Does that mean that we should not have any women at all in our culture? A far stretch indeed, but Cambodia is not Western Europe. We do not eat dogs here, or other animals such as horses, frogs, snails… Oh hang on…. Do snails have brains?
I cannot agree that eating meat is “fundamentally wrong” as it is not. It is natural and perfectly right.
I *CAN* agree that causing unnecessary pain is wrong, as it has been proven that both animals and plants feel and react to pain. You cannot differentiate because one is cuddly and another is not or that one might have a brain (Most animal species do not have a brain as such) Pain and suffering is the same no matter what it is inflicted on. (Although I don’t know if Algae or other single cell organisms have been shown to feel pain. Yet.)
I like my food. If it’s a lovely steak or a slice of cucumber, I will still eat it.
My point is that your comment is flawed, and I hope to have explained why.
If you choose not to eat meat, that’s also fine, but it’s hypocritical to criticise others when you are choosing to willfully ignore facts that are parts of the reason for your opinion.
- “hypocritical” – In the words of Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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yo brainiac your out there like pluto man does that mean i gotta stop cuttin my grass cos it hurts am i drowning my tea evry time i make a cuppa is me gange burning alive every time i strike up. cant say i agree with vegi but at least i can see if i kick a dog it hurts
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18; good one. I used to work with a very earnest young fellow who was a strict vegan. His enthusiasm and zeal for his subject matter knew no bounds and I would often listen with great interest to his unilateral ramblings on the evils of the meat trade and how conventional shoes were a matter of great shame.
Although his personal values with regard to meat consumption were extremely well known, well rehearsed and frequently broadcast about the office by this mobile megaphone of social conscience, the matter of bread presented problems of a more esoteric nature. Bread was, I assured, a dubious product because it necessitated the “murder of yeast”.
Perhaps surprisingly, the chap was not as thin as a rake, which I thought he would be given his ethical aversion to eating just about anything which you might name. That point aside, his concern for the welfare of yeast did tend to detract from the credibilty of his cause. It also caused me to look at my french bread in an entirely new light.
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Simple solution all the above moaning and that on most of these threads.
Start eating humans this has many benefits:
1. Cure the population problem, SocSec issue and prison crowding (start with the criminals and spongers)traffic and housing issues.
2. Cure the health problem – eat the aged and infirm (slow cooked to tenderise the tougher meat)
3. Cure the inept council of ministers etc as they can be served up to visiting dignitaires.
4. Reduce the need for houses and return concrete and tarmac to green field for the animals to live in.
5. it will save all the fluffy ickle bunny wunnies.
“[lifts up the severed arm] This is what happens. It indicates the non-frenzied feeding of a large squalus – possibly Longimanus or Isurus glauca. Now… the enormous amount of tissue loss prevents any detailed analysis; however the attacking squalus must be considerably larger than any normal squalus found in these waters.”
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Vote Quint 20.
While your proposal is not without merit, I don’t really fancy eating criminals and spongers or even the aged and infirm…not to mention inept ministers…eeewww!
I have a better idea, we could eat the children of poor people, that way they will not be a burden to their parents or the taxpayer and instead, will be highly beneficial to the public.
Moreover:
“I have been assured by a very knowing American of my acquaintance in London, that a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food, whether stewed, roasted, baked, or boiled…” [Taken from Jonathan Swift's satirical essay 'A Modest Proposal' 1729]
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I’m with you Thirtysomething – after all, what is the difference ethically between a cow and a carrot? We all thrive on death, with the exception perhaps of Fruitarians…!
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Tell me Veg E, do you own anything made from leather?
What about wool? Surely those poor sheep don’t turn up for a shave voluntarily. No, they are forcibly pinned down in a state of panic while some farmer gives the a No.1 against their will.
It must be particulalry stressful for them and for those sheep in the queue behind them. If you did that to a human it would be called an assault and been seen as cruel, especially if that human had the faculties of a sheep. Or do you have a scale of cruelty where some is acceptable so long as you benefit?
As for plants you say “they would simply be momentarily aware of the moment of death”. I disagree. A carrot pulled from the earth presumably undergoes a very slow death from dehydration and starvation. It is put out of its misery eventually by being chopped and eaten but is dying from the moment it is pulled. Sometimes days.
ps, I do actually like my beef and lamb bloody. It tastes better that way.
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at veg e tarian, u clearly state in comment number five
“I respect all life, I don’t assign greater value to one form of life than another, it’s hyprocritical.”
but you eat plants…..they are a form of life are they not. Therefore u are yourself a hypocrit, as u obviously assign animals a higher level of life than plants. Do they themselves not get the right to live. Also, do u eat dairy products, or things which have palm oil in them, or eat soya products. the last two are some of the biggest reasons for de forrestation in the world, which renders hundreds of animals homeless, and species extinct. I would guess your answer is yes. better get off the soap box mate, u making a fool out of yourself
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