Church CD delivery: We got it wrong, admit Jersey Post
Friday 9th September 2011, 4:07PM BST.
Each household in Jersey will receive a CD
JERSEY Post has apologised for refusing to deliver 40,000 audio CDs of St Mark’s Gospel after an employee deemed them to be ‘offensive material’.
The CDs had been ordered by Island churches as a part of the celebrations to mark 400 years of the first English edition of the Bible. The Christian group Switch On, led by the Rev Martin Shea of St Mark’s Church, had arranged for the CDs to go to Island households, but after weeks of talks, Jersey Post pulled out of the deal saying that it might offend people.
This morning Jersey Post managing director Kevin Keen issued a full apology. ‘We got it horribly wrong,’ he said. ‘I am trying to get hold of the sponsors of the project and I have apologised profusely. If they want us to deliver it, then we will deliver it.
‘I know who did it and they got it wrong. The person took the decision about whether we should distribute religious material and that was completely wrong of them and not the policy of this company.’
Full story in Friday’s JEP
Read the full story in the Jersey Evening Post. Click here for subscription details. Individual editions are also available online.
Travel
To, from and around the Island
Jersey Airport Arrivals/Departures
Jersey Harbours Arrivals/Departures
Links to UK regional airports
Jersey Bus Information/Timetables
This is Jersey
Jersey Evening Post
Well mine is going back into the Post box marked returned to sender!
Report abuse
And why they are apologising?
It was very good decision…
Report abuse
Im ok with it as long as I dont get any of this rubbish.
Report abuse
No! The Jersey Post employee got it absolutely RIGHT and Mr Keen should not have backed down under pressure.
This CD is no different to any other junk mail that I do not want to receive.
Report abuse
I don’t want a St Marks Gospel CD. If I did I would go out buy one. Save the packaging. It’s bad enough getting the Thomsons Estate Agents blurb which I always put back in the post box as not wanted.
Report abuse
Don’t be quite so apologetic Mr.Keen, I’m sure your employee made the original decision in good faith (no pun intended). The majority of these CDs will go the same way as the rest of the junk mail that comes through the letter box – straight into the bin. Or perhaps we should return them to you for disposal?
Report abuse
I’d like to opt out of receiving my copy and instead request that Mr Shea donates the money saved to a life-saving charity such as Water Aid or Save the Children.
Report abuse
Mine too will going back to sender as like the first decision by JP i find it offensive.
I assume the local clergy would not be offended if i were to post a copy of ‘The God Delusion’ to every local church? Didn’t think so…
Why organised religion continually feels the need (or indeed think they have the right) to shove it down the populations throat at every opporunity i do not understand.
Report abuse
If the church sends any of that cr*p to my house ill be sending them some of my cr*p!
Good on the guy who said not to deliver it. Keen, get a backbone mate!
Also I wonder where you would all stand if it Islamic CDs?
Report abuse
This is insulting to everyone who is not a christian. Once again a religion thrown into the face of everyone. May use to scare off the birds from the garden as about as useful as the religion is to me. How would these people like it if I send a cd to them on free thinking without the safety of the church.
Report abuse
I think some of you are truly ungrateful.
If you suspend this CD on a bent coathanger over your wheely bin it keeps seagulls away, restoring civic pride and doing something positive for your community. Sorted!
Report abuse
Jimbo 8 –
Mine too will going back to sender as like the first decision by JP i find it offensive.
I assume the local clergy would not be offended if i were to post a copy of ‘The God Delusion’ to every local church? Didn’t think so…
Why organised religion continually feels the need (or indeed think they have the right) to shove it down the populations throat at every opporunity i do not understand.
They feel the need because that’s what they have been tasked to do as Christians, by all means throw it away but there is nothing of greater importance to christians than spreading the gospel, it’s what Christ commissioned us to do, our great commission.
We don’t mind if you choose not to beleive, it’s your right but as Christians who beleive in the gospel nothing is of higher priority, this life and all it’s suffering will pass, eternity will not.
Jersey Post were wrong as indicated by their apology, it’s not Al Queda literature, it’s the faith that the laws of our society are built on, nearly all of our current laws date from the Christian faith.
You may disagree entirely and you are perfectly entitled to do so.
Give it a listen – then bin it, it’s a religion not a cult.
Report abuse
I understood Jersey Post needed all the work they can get.
How can they refuse work when they keep losing revenue?
Report abuse
If its not costing me anything then i will give it a chance and if its not to my taste, in the bin with the rest of the advertising mail that is posted in my letter box.
If your offended just stick it in the bin.
Report abuse
JK: well said.
Reminds me of how the Catholic church has sufficient resource to cure all third world debt, but instead spends it on pomposity, golden chalices, extravagent buildings and the like. Pretty much everything the humble son of a carpenter would have been against.
Not to mention the thousands massaging their egos, thinking they’re ‘holier than thou’ for going to church each week in their most grandiose clothes. What if these very people all went out and helped the elderly or disabled every week instead of singing inane hyms on a Sunday?
What a waste of money (which is all tax free, of course).
Report abuse
And they say the Tax department wastes money.. You probably could have fed thousands of kids on this money or immunised them, even made a donation for elderly folk who struggle financially instead a pr exercise.. Shocking!!
Report abuse
I would like to say how pleased I am to see the responses on this page. I also find the thought of sending out that CD to be most insulting. I would not want it even if it was a printed copy but the assumption that there are so many people who cannot read and need an audio copy is ludicrous. The initial response of that person at Jersey Post was quite right.
If anyone wants to join in church activities that that is their choice. I always think that adults are entitled to decide what they want to do in private but should not inflict such activities on other people.
About the only religious organisation that I now have respect for is the Modern Satanists as they do not seek converts and they do not brainwash children. They only accept members who are over 18 years old and have made up their own minds as adults.
I am not a Satanist and do not wish to join them. I am a member of the Jersey Humanist group which is for those who lead a moral and ethical lifestyle without needing a supernatural explanation for their existence. Anyone in Jersey who shares our views and wants to join in our discussion group can do so on,-
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jersey-Humanists/
Our Humanist group also meets for lunch at times so that we can get to know each other in person.
Report abuse
I know they have to slavishly follow the “Great Commission” because they think Jesus ordered it, (actually the anonymous gospel writer later called Matthew). To paraphrase Dostoevesky, “If God exists anything is permitted”, that is, Christians can ride roughshod over the desires and beliefs of nonbelievers because they think they have a god on their side.
Having to receive unsolicited religious propaganda into my home is just sheer bad manners; like someone taking my photo without asking.
Report abuse
This just as bad a spam mail arriving through my door, The employee was totally correct, If i never ordered it I don’t want it especially if its from the church!
Report abuse
I don’t want this junk!!
….straight in the bin….what a waste!
How dare the Rev Martin Shea think this appropriate material to send to every household….not everyone believes in “fiction” ….and there are other faiths too!
If I wanted a disc I would have asked for one!
Report abuse
Postman Plod
Well perhaps they should open offices or recommence deliveries on a Saturday!
Waiting for a delivery I received a docket today. I can pick up my parcel Mon-Fri….guess what? I’m at work!!
Ridiculous “service” !
Report abuse
There would have been nothing to stop this material being hand delivered and had it been I rather doubt that anyone would have raised an eyelid.
Surely there must be something a bit more worthwhile talking about.
Report abuse
Does anyone know any real Christians, I know four off the top of my head and two of them are my Grandparents!
The issues that they believe it is their God given duty to spread this propoganda to the unbelievers…..
Imagine the outrage if a Pagan religious CD was sent out.
Report abuse
All the so-called “free thinkers” have identical opinions on a whole range of subjects; strange isn’t it?
Report abuse
Sooner not receive it just hope they burn well and not to toxic, as it is going strait in the bin with the rest of the rubbish that turns up in my letter box.
There needs to be a law that allows you to opt out of unsolicited mail bit like the way you can sine up to block phone calls.
Report abuse
parktown prawn, you can pick up udelivered parcels on a saturday they are open.
Report abuse
If I want to read fairy stories I will re-read the Lord of the Rings. If I want to know about an Iron Age Cult I will go to one of the many beautiful, but empty buildings that dot our island.
I will be returning the DVD to sender with a note saying not required.
Report abuse
Jersey – a Godless society. I have been working for 3 years and not once have I heard anyone mention Christ, What a sad lot you all are.
Report abuse
They say that listening to this CD is not obligatory, but having to receive it at all makes it half -way to being compulsory. It is only not completely compulsory because they can no longer enforce it as in the good old days, of the stake, prison, fines, ridicule, ostracism and business boycotting.
If as they suggest, it is purely voluntary for us to listen or read St Marks gospel, what is wrong with us just attending one of the vast number of Churches that litter the landscape; quite apart from most people possessing a bible anyway?
Report abuse
It saddens me to see so much anger and hatred poured out on this page for what is by most commentaters definition junk mail. Would you complain so vociferously if the content were anything other than religious?. This man ( and I don’t know him ) has initiated a process intending to spread the gospel of Christ in a modern and accessible manner, what precisley is his crime. Throw it away if you don’t want to hear it as you would with any other unsolicitated mail. If your concern is really in regard to the receipt of unsolicitated mail then contact Jersey Post, but don’t nail this man to a tree for persuing his faith, that’s been done already with his god.
Report abuse
The initial reaction of Jersey Post was the right one. The apology was the mistake. I do not want any more junk mail.
The only positive side is that, when it finally arrives, I could offer it for sale on eBay. I wonder how many will appear there?
Report abuse
Judging by the comments here, the vast majority of people have seen through the comical god stories and will not be wanting their discs.
It does, however, seem like a terrible waste – just to throw 39,950 of these discs into the bin.
Perhaps someone could think of a better place for the good Reverend to stick them?
Answers on a postcard, please.
Report abuse
Well they can go shove that CD in someone elses letterbox because I dont want it in mine… Jersey Post can have it back and use it as a coaster in their canteen
Report abuse
29.Christian Man
Christians are usually “sad”, or sometimes “sorrowful”, when we reject the more improbable of their beliefs. They also like to claim “hatred”, “discrimination” and “persecution” (and “martyrdom”). We do not hate anybody, we merely consider we have a right to have our feelings taken into consideration without being walked all over. As atheists are generally becoming more numerous in enlightened countries (even the USA), it might be wiser to stop annoying us all the time. We have crucified nobody, neither Jesus nor the person who initiated this action. We are just defending Enlightenment values and have no wish to fight anybody, but just be left alone.
Report abuse
Sorry Reg but that’s one of the best: The “beliefs of nonbelievers”…
Report abuse
@27 thats because we have evolved as a species and are aware, through rational thinking and science, that magic thinking or ‘religion’ is clearly group therapy for those fearing impermanance
Report abuse
Haven’t they got anything better to spend there time on or money, if you did want the vidio thay just had to put an advert in the E P and a place you could pick them up, it would save a lot of waste unwanted stuff and money, I know they need to fill the inccinarator but not like this
Report abuse
mybe they could put it online you could download it if you wanted to hear it on ipad and be brain washed
Report abuse
“Mjolnir de Jersiaise
All the so-called “free thinkers” have identical opinions on a whole range of subjects; strange isn’t it?”
Not really. We live in a society able to determine it’s own morality through general consensus, the majority do not require their morality and thoughts to be dictated to them by what amounts to nothing more than a Chinese whisper spanning millenia.
Personally i’d rather decide my own morality, beliefs and opinions guided by social norms. I don’t begrudge the sheeple for choosing to have faith in the ‘great book’ and thus don’t feel the need to preach my beliefs to those who believe differently – a courtesy the followers of most organised religions do not extend to others.
So yes, ‘free thinkers’ may well all have the same opinion on alot of things, this is the product of a collectively agreed morality. Equally, in the same way some Catholics may disagree over the homosexuality ‘issue’ (for example) us ‘free thinkers’ will also disagree on a variety of matters however the latter disagreements will be based on logic and if relevant science and not on blind faith.
The money used to produce these CD’s could have been better spent elsewhere actually doing something useful for society as a whole, instead nearly all of them will end up in the incinerator further polluting the planet.
Report abuse
Don’t deliver here.
No bible bashing s@xt through my door….
Report abuse
dhl man
Are you sure? The docket did not give me an option to collect!!
Cheers
Report abuse
27 Thank the Lord
Who’s are the sad ones…..you’re the grown up who still believes what he reads!!
Unlike your god-faring self, most people live in reality…..try reading the newspaper once in a while instead of the bible, read about war, famine, natural disasters, murders etc etc and see where your god is then!
Report abuse
The anonymous postal manger who made the initial decision has been proved right, hasn’t he? It has caused offense, as can be seen here, as well as in some private emails I have had. KK is usually one of the stand-up-and-be-counted brigade, and it is a bit disappointing to see him grovel.
I suppose what annoys atheists about this kind of stuff is the fraudulent passing off of fiction as truth. I haven’t bothered unwrapping it, but I have the disc beside me. It claims to be “good news” when at best it is just a good yarn. Being a freebie, I haven’t been cheated out of anything, but I still resent being lied to.
Report abuse
Christian Man 12.
It isn’t Al Queda literature but it is rubbish all the same. Why do Christians not realise how much they annoy people by attempting to hijack some core aspect of what it means to be human? Our laws and society are not based on the Christian faith as you claim, they are in fact based on humanistic values which came long before the bible and have been developing over 25 million years. As such, in the majority of cases humans do not need to be preached moral guidance from religion because those morals are innate in their person.
Thank the Lord 27.
What is sad is to believe in an omnipotent being that chooses to sit aside and condone injustice. What is even more sad is you will waste your one and only life believing that if you put up with this injustice and attend church and pledge your life you will receive eternal life. Do you not see the irony of the situation? Wanting praise and worship before delivering reward is a human flaw which is not strange seeing as both testaments were human productions.
Christian Man 29.
This is not hate you see it is annoyance. People are venting frustration at the nonsense and irrelevance coming through their post box. The CD is both nonsense and irrelevant (except to Christians) and is therefore is junk mail in the same way Motorcar Weekly magazine would be to someone who has absolutely no interest in motor cars. Why do you not get this?
Report abuse
34. ”
Perspicuous
Posted September 10, 2011 at 11:32 am
Sorry Reg but that’s one of the best: The “beliefs of nonbelievers”…
Yes I noticed the typo too late; still it does refer to non-believers in supernaturalism.
Report abuse
What do you expect Postal is on the way out and Kevin Keen has had more jobs than all of us put together.
Report abuse
So if next week the Mormons decided to do a mass mail shot, would that be okay with the Christians? And if the week after the Muslim Brotherhood send us Korans – will that be fine too? Then perhaps we could have the Jahovah’s Witnesses – I bet theyre eager to share their good news. Then we could have some northern Irish protestants mailing everyone, telling the horrors of Catholicism; the week after the Jesuits could send us some info on the nastiness of Protestantism. If we’re going to have ‘one’ religion or denomination of a religion having special access to our homes, why shouldnt all religions have a right to send junk mail?! In fact european Court of Human rights and all that, the very fact this has been allowed for one might just mean it has to be allowed for religions spreading their good news!
I bet the people who thought up sending us these CDs had good intentions – but like lots of religion, who have they really done it for, us or them? They’ve done itfor themselves. They can feel they have done it for God or to spread the ‘good news’ –they can pat themselves on the head and say ‘well done’ coz it will make them feel better. Somebody made a comment earlier that the church was looking for new ways to ‘spread the word’ – the old way (if I remember my RE and Scouts) was to be of service to people and get out and do some good in the world. I suppose a bit of plastic shoved through the door is just easier?
Report abuse
To paraphrase Larry David :
“Why are you Christians so desperate for everybody else to believe what you believe? I like lobster; do I go around telling people they have to like lobster as well? Here, have some lobster; I like it, so you have to like it as well!”
Report abuse
I think the public should organise a mass – a mass dumping of these CDs back on the doorstep of St Mark’s church!
Report abuse
Frankly I’m offended that the Post Office think it’s up to them to decide what I am (or am not) exposed to! I haven’t voted them into power to represent my views, they are just a bunch of individuals and I don’t even know a single one of them personally.
If they are so concerned about religious materials offending people then why do they deliver Mormon pamphlets (and these are often incredibly misleading as to who has produced them)? Why do they also constantly deliver lots of junk mail from organisations that I have absolutely no desire to hear from?
It cannot be one rule for one lot of people and another rule for the others.
Report abuse
if i get this cd , i may put it ebay and if it sells donate the cash to a charity.
failing that it will end up with the rest.
like the idea of the seagull scarer.
i respect peoples beliefs of all religions , so long as they do not stuff it down my throat.
Report abuse
Number 49>
The only reasonable voice in a malestrome of nasty bigoted views.
i’d rather have the choice to choose than let the social anti-religious fascists dictate for me.
Who apart from Leah Holmes has raised the issue of freedom to choose.? – disgrace upon the rest of you.
Report abuse
Wow. So many anti Christian views expressed, I had to take a moment to remind myself that all this is about someone that made blind people see, the deaf hear, dead people raised back to life! All this I think is attractive and someone I want to follow. However, if you don’t want to hear about that put the CD in the bin. The troubling thing surely must be that the Post tried to stop you from having the opportunity to hear it. If any other religion wants to send you things then they should not be stopped either, the Bible can stand its ground in any theological debate. Just bin any mail that you don’t want but banning sets some pretty dangerous standards.
Report abuse
I am offended that Kevin Keen thought that I might be offended. The offense felt by those who take offence is itself offensive. The fact that I find it offensive in turn offends those who were originally offended. They find my offence at their offense offensive. I in turn find it offensive that they, having been offended and thereby offending me, take offense at my having been offended and then offend me further with their offense. Thier original offence is compounded by my subsequent offence and so it continues, mutatis mutandis.
Report abuse
Moonraker
“…all this is about someone that made blind people see, the deaf hear, dead people raised back to life”
Scientists can pretty much do all of that in a laboratory these days…..
We all know what religion is, we all know where to go for “enlightenment”…..so why the need to post literature to us too…..if we want religion we will go out and seek it.
As others have stated, this is simply a gross misuse of church funds which SHOULD have been used for better causes such as helping people and animals in need!
Then perhaps if I saw the church behave in this way more often I would have a lot more respect for the clergy!
Report abuse
@moonraker
Listen to yourself, dead people don’t come back to life, that is a known and demonstrated fact. All those other miracles that you mentioned modern science does them every day, all over the world. This Jesus guy also said that you should give all of your money away, have you done that yet?
“The Bible can stand its ground in any theological debate.”
Theological maybe but not in any debate where reason and logic are involved. It is violent, mysogenistic, self contradictory and contains thousands of known falsehoods.
Report abuse
51. Jonathon
”
Who apart from Leah Holmes has raised the issue of freedom to choose.?
We all have actually; our freedom to choose whether we want to receive the Gospel has been taken away, and the CD has been imposed upon us without doing any prior market research as to whether we want it. Then the feeble excuse is made that we are “not obliged” to have it; why send it then?
Report abuse
53. CCC
Wonderful! You should be a philosopher.
52. Moonraker
The trouble is; yours is a faith position to which an increasing number of people do not subscribe.
If as you suggest, there should be a free for all avalanche of religious postal deliveries from all religions, then we have the choice whether to either ban the lot of them on grounds of being a public nuisance. Or, we could surrender completely and just buy ourselves hugh letter boxes to accomodate them all,–or, we should have the freedom to mount a counter-offensive and bombard all the religious fascists (a word I learned from Jonathon), with atheistic propaganda and declare total war between reason and unreason, which will last forever. What would you recommend?
This is a sociological problem that urgently needs sorting, even if we try to avoid a pointless theological debate.
Report abuse
moonraker
Wow. So many anti Christian views expressed, I had to take a moment to remind myself that all this is about someone that made blind people see, the deaf hear, dead people raised back to life!
———————
Here you go, I have corrected your post for you –
“Wow. So many anti Christian views expressed, I had to take a moment to remind myself that all this is about someone that ALLEGEDLY made blind people see, the deaf hear, dead people raised back to life!”
I don’t see any anti-christian views in any of the messages, what i see is anti religious views and the annoyance that those of don’t believe are continually subject to an unwanted barrage of preaching by those who do.
It is typical of most religions to cry persecution when someone disagrees, just look at #51 – apparently because some of us chose not to believe in a book written and re-written several times over a period of a few thousand years this makes us ‘social facists’. Jonathan, we all have the freedom to choose, if I wanted to learn about the work of christ I would go to church not listen to a CD forcibly put into my post box.
To quote Richard Dawkins:
“We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further.”
Report abuse
JERSEYPOST GOT IT RIGHT FIRST TIME. i did not want religous material sent to me but RECIEVED THE CD. i bent it over to destroy it and binned it. JERSEYPOST were originally correct to decide not to deliver.– RELIGION IS JUST A WAY OF CONTROLLING LARGE NUMBERS OF UNINTELLIGENT PEOPLE, and often sending them off to war. PEACE IS NOT YOUR AGENDA!
Report abuse
I don’t need false religions to keep me honest! – I did away with my faith a long time ago. Religion has and still is one of the great causes of many a travesty throughout history, sure I believe in God, I believe in a higher intelligence, or more accurately a force of good will & Love if you like, that’s all I need to keep me straight! – Anything else is worked to make me sheep-like and live in an oppressed fear. Live life to the full I say, be honest, kind and considerate to others, that’s all you need. This little round piece of plastic JUNK is going back in the post marked ‘return to sender’.
Report abuse
61 C@rLiNHo5
‘This little round piece of plastic JUNK is going back in the post marked ‘return to sender’.
How about return to author , that might cause some confusion , unless of course its a JE5 postcode , when he could arrange to pick them up himself.
Report abuse
Sorry Evolution Rox; I think we both mean #52 for Jonathan (not 51). I got my numbers muddled. Moonraker should be #53 (not 52) I think;–mea culpa.
Report abuse
–and Chris Chris Cheeps is #54. O dear,-sorry.
Report abuse
On this 10th anniversary of 9/11 its worth remembering that George Bush used his Christian beliefs to justify the invasion of Iraq on spurious grounds and, because the US had no meaningful post victory plan, led to the deaths of 100,000 Iraqi civilians in the civil war that followed. A nice bit of rational secularist thinking wouldn’t have gone amiss there.
Report abuse
Jersey would have no interest in religion anyway as it does not make any money out of it, because dont worry if it did the greed mongers would be all over it.
Report abuse
It’s no different to the Thompsons Estates we receive every month! If I was looking for a house, I’d visit them, or look in the paper. The amount of waste from this is far worse than a CD. People should post unwanted Thompson brochures back through their letter box, or stack them against their front door. When they would have to move a few stacks to open up in the morning, they may get the hint!
Report abuse
@53 Moonraker – well said, the truth of the Gospel of St Mark should not be made of light of by these heathen unbelievers. My favourite bit of Marks gospel is Chpt 16 vs 16 & 17: ‘And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.’ So I am sure Moonraker, when s/he gets sick (God forbid) just goes to a fellow Christian and ask for hands to be laid and healing takes place – thats why you never see Christians at the doctors or in hospital and why churches are putting the hospitals out of business. This must happen because it says so in the Bible – not once in a blue moon, in line with the general statisticsof unexplained healing that happen regardless of religious intervention, but as a fact that all Christians, if they really are true believers, will heal people. Thats what the Bible says. ‘Course taking this bit of Bible would mean putting your money where your mouth is. Few do it. Far easier to just pop a bit of plastic through someones front door – or even better get someone else to put a piece of plastic through someones door – and think youve done your bit for jesus.
Report abuse
wow i had a feeling i was on my own with this one.i dont believe in that crap. i feel at home with ulot.i think people like moonraker.well what can i say about people like him,sad to believe in things that are so over the top.millions of people died and are still for these so called gods pathetic.
Report abuse
I WOULD LIKE A RICHARD DAWKINS DVD,instead. i make a decision and then go and BUY ONE. i wouldn’t want him sending dvd’s to everybody. (although he has got an incredibly good way of annoying religous people) over HIS BELIEFS THAT I TOTALLY AGREE WITH. — RICHARD DAWKINS rules ok.
Report abuse
you might as well BUILD CHURCHES to worship HARRY POTTER. LESS EVIL and vengeance and the bible is only fiction, why do you think the catholics banned anyone from reading the bible for centuries? SCARED THAT PEOPLE MIGHT START THINKING FOR THEMSELVES instead of being told what to think.
Report abuse
If I get one it will be returned to sender and that goes for any rubbish sent by election candidates as well!!!!!!
Report abuse
religion is just CONTROL, THROUGH THE USE OF FEAR. always reminding everyone that they are sinners….. oh and give generously whilst you repent.
Report abuse
Offensive is the wrong word, annoying would be correct, receiving Christian material in a Christian country shouldnt be offensive to anyone who shouldnt be here and we shouldnt listen to them, like they dont to us in their religious domain!
Report abuse
I can’t believe what a bunch of bigoted opinions are expressed here. There is no moral high ground in refusing to accept these CDs based on opinions that are wholly uniformed about Jesus and the message he brought. What was I supposed to do when my mother lay dying in intensive care, because the doctors could not fix her and gave her a few hours at best to live. Was I ignorant and out of date when I prayed for her and cried out to God for help. Maybe…except my mother, previously never a believer, made a miraculous recovery, became a christian and lived on passing the happiest years of her life.
Personally I think the world would be a better place if people lived for others instead of themselves, and I find most subscribers to that lifestyle to be people who take Jesus example seriously.
THINK!
Report abuse
74. “Here we go again.”
A large part of this problem consists of labelling Jersey as a “Christian counntry”, in much the same way as children are labelled “Christian children” ,(see Richard Dawkins on this topic).
Who has applied these labels and who defends them ferociously?–why Christians of course.
History is written by the winners, and the Christians won (up to now), because they had the backing of the Roman Empire, and subsequent semi-Romanised barbarian states including in France and Britain, which encompassed Jersey.
For Christians to claim that Jersey is a Christian country, is like the Bible being true because the Bible says it is true;- circular reasoning. Most countries that became Christian did so out of a combination of bloody conquest, political and even sexual expediency, and superstitious belief that Jesus was a manly warrior who had conquered death; this had special appeal to the warlike Saxons and Vikings. Our “Christian heritage” is mostly the distorted remains of Graeco-Roman civilisation. The recovery of classical civilisation in the Renaissance and Enlightenment periods after centuries of religious stagnation makes this obvious.
Report abuse
73
no thanks
religion is just CONTROL, THROUGH THE USE OF FEAR. always reminding everyone that they are sinners….. oh and give generously whilst you repent.
I can’t comment on other religions but the Christian faith exists to spread a simple message. God loves you and wants you to enter into a relationship with him through his son Jesus Christ. You need only accept the invitation with an honest heart and you can spend eternity with him.
If you choose to renounce God in this life then he will renounce you for eternity after you die. His enemy the devil works tirelessly to subvert this aim, judging by the overwhelming amount of negative comment above I can only conclude he is suceeding on a grand scale. Then again this is no surprise, we are told that the road to hell is wide and well travelled, the road to heaven is narrow and filled with trials.
Martin Shea is simply trying to reach every household in the island to give them the opportunity to hear the gospel in a simple way should they so choose. Not complicated is it, if you want to hear the cd give it a listen, if not bin it, no harm done either way.
Report abuse
I am not offended by the content on any such religious views, each to their own.
What does offend me is the waste involved in the production and distribution of 40,000 CDs.
The CDs are produced using a variety of non-renewable and non-biodegradable materials, which when incinerated, as seems to be the fate of the majority of this particular batch of CDs, they release harmful dioxins into the atmosphere.
Surely any sensible God wouldn’t advocate this sort of unnecessary waste and pollution!
Report abuse
I have decided that every household will receive a dvd of Manchester United’s greatest goals. Please watch it – then bin it if you don’t like it.
I am sure that certain football fans, particularly Leeds Utd, Liverpool and Man City types, would take great exception to receiving such material and being told to watch it; but that’s tough.
I would be failing in my duty as a Red Devil if I didn’t try to make you see that your team is the wrong one and that you should be supporting my team
Report abuse
Who listens to CDs these days? The money it must have cost would have been better spent paying for a website (for years at the same cost!) and making it a downloadable podcast. A cheaper card mailshot could have directed us to it.
Report abuse
All very well and good Gerry M #75. Glad to hear that your mother got better. Was it really prayer that cured her do you think? Perhaps it was science. Perhaps luck?
My issue with this is that while, according to you, your god saved your mother, why? For what purpose?
Why was your mother’s life any more valuable than, for instance, the thousands of innocent children who died during the tsunamis in recent years – you can’t blame that on free will, evil or human error. Did they not deserve to live? Did they not pray loudly enough? Were they batting for the wrong team perhaps?
Or does your god not do tectonic plates?
Report abuse
What do you think a psychologist would say if you walked into their office and came out with the following, yet substituted the words ‘God’, ‘jesus christ’ and ‘devil’ for some random, abitrary names like so:
“I can’t comment on other religions but the Bongo Bongo faith exists to spread a simple message. Billy Bob Thornton loves you and wants you to enter into a relationship with him through his son Mel Gibson. You need only accept the invitation with an honest heart and you can spend eternity with him.
If you choose to renounce Billy Bob Thornton in this life then he will renounce you for eternity after you die. His enemy, Samuel L Jackson works tirelessly to subvert this aim, judging by the overwhelming amount of negative comment above I can only conclude he is suceeding on a grand scale. Then again this is no surprise, we are told that the road to Guernsey is wide and well travelled, the road to Narnia is narrow and filled with trials.”
The short answer is that you would be detained under the mental health act for your own safety, understandably so.
I often wonder whether the likes of ‘Christian Man’ ever just take a step back and think for themselves for a moment. The ability of the human mind to defy all logic, reasoning and science simply to find a non existant higher purpose is frankly scary.
To follow a quote by a previous poster, and especially for you Christian Man:
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours” (Stephen Roberts)
Report abuse
75. Gerry M
I am happy about your mother’s recovery, though why was she in intensive care in the first place?
I held my mother’s hand at a hospital bed-side while she died; she was a devout believer ,(I was neutral at that stage); no miracles for her.
They say the gods bless you in the morning and curse you in the afternoon; so it seems these miracles are rather arbitrary,-as demonstrated by all studies of the “power-of-prayer” to date.
As for “bigots”; the word is derived from “Bei Gott”,–which is an expression for which German evangelisers were notorious.
The modern definition of “bigot” appears to be,-anyone who disagrees with a Christian.
77. Christian Man
“If you choose to renounce God in this life then he will renounce you for eternity after you die”.
We have now reached the stage where threats are used as the last resort for believers to impose their views, (apart from miracle claims).
To repeat; we do not want to stop you believing what you want; please grant us the same courtesy.
Report abuse
Christian Man (77)
Okay, let me get this straight. You’re saying that if you don’t believe in God, then when you die, you’ll go to hell. What if you’re a kind, caring, thoughtful person who doesn’t believe in God? Do you still go to hell when you die? If so, that doesn’t seem overly fair.
Report abuse
As a practising pagan (although I prefer the word heathen) I would welcome the chance to let people know about my faith. I’m not sure if Jersey Post would delive a CD about heathenism, but I’ve no reason to suppose they wouldn’t. I certainly won’t be offended by receiving this CD and will listen to it. I suspect, however, that it will be some whacky modern translation of the bible – not the beautiful, familiar language of the King James Bible. Ironic, really, as it’s the 400th anniversary of the King James Bible that is being celebrated. Unfortuantel, in an attempt to appear ‘relevant’, the Church of England has thrown out one of its greatest assets – the beautiful language of the King James Bible and the Book of Common Prayer. Merry meet, merry part!
Report abuse
@Christian Man (77)
“God loves you and wants you to enter into a relationship with him…”
“If you choose to renounce [him].. he will renounce you for eternity…”
Sounds exactly like control through FEAR!
It’s reasoning such as this that I ensures that I cannot believe in your benevolent God.
Josh
Report abuse
#73 – Christian Man
Did you just try to argue that the Christian faith is not “just CONTROL, THROUGH THE USE OF FEAR” by stating that if you do not follow God whilst alive, then you spend an eternity of pain and suffering when you die?
This is simply “Do what I say or else”, control through fear! Doesn’t sound like a forgiving God to me. Doesn’t even sound like a nice God
As for the idea of this devil thing, Please explain, where in Genesis (Chapter, verse?) does God create Hell?
As for the idea of this CD, I would have preferred the money spent on producing this to have gone to some charity, something that the Christian faith is supposed to help. If I wanted to go through this propaganda, again, I would go to church. I have read the bible, I find it full of errors and not useful for modern day life, unless I fancy a bit of a fairy tail.
Report abuse
Christian Man #77
The devil does not exist in the same way as Dracula does not exist. He is a figment of religion and was used to scare children into being good. Without religion the devil no longer exists, the devil is a direct product of the Church. Humour me: If God is omnipotent then why has he not defeated the devil?
“If you choose to renounce God in this life then he will renounce you for eternity after you die.”
And that attitude is exactly why I reject religion. Why can a believer who commits atrocity qualify for eternal life, yet the non strong minded non believer who has led a peaceful forgiving life be rejected? God obviously feels pride, he obviously wants us to yield. I’m sorry but this does not stack up to the teachings. God is able to forgive crimes against fellow humans but not the crime of rejection? How insecure and vengeful is this God?!
No. What is more likely is that human scripture has made this a requirement to place fear amongst the ignorant and ensure the church holds power over its subjects.
The only reason this CD is being circulated is because it is Christian. If it were “The Universe According to Santa Clause” it would not be circulated because his ideas have not been a household name for 2 millennia, engrained and indoctrinated into children to the point where their minds are conditioned to believe nothing else making it very difficult for a lot of them to become rational adults, or, as in the case of Jersey Post, worry about causing great offence to a group of people who choose to believe in something for which there is no shred of evidence. Superstition holds great power for those who require a crash mat and cannot except the harsh (yet beautiful) reality of life and death. The Good News is fine apart from the bit where you have to pledge allegiance for a promise it cannot possibly deliver which is no different to me claiming I’ve found the cure for cancer… you just have to do me one tiny favour…
Report abuse
If you send it back in the post (at the sender’s expense) it is probably worth snapping it first so they don’t just send it to anyone else.
Does anyone else see the irony in claiming this is a christian country, but also that the gospel somehow qualifies as “news”
Our remnant christian heritage means we have all heard your gospel before.
Report abuse
Personally I find the Jersey Consumer Council newsletter, which is funded by the States and delivered by Jersey Post and which assumes that we are all helpless fools who cannot follow basic instructions and live on a diet of white bread, carbonated drinks, processed meat and gravy granules much more offensive.
This is a CD given by the church. You don’t have to pay for it and you don’t have to listen to it. The environmental waste is annoying, but if you are non-Christian or even anti-Christian perhaps you should be pleased that the church is choosing to waste its money (and support Jersey Post) through an almost entirely ineffective way of spreading the bible.
Report abuse
More pain and misery in the history of mankind
Sometimes it seems more like
The blind leading the blind
It brings upon us more famine, death and war
You know religion has a lot to answer for
Believe in Iron Maiden – “For the greater good of God”
Report abuse
@ 77 – No harm done either way?
Wasting resources and money is harmful.
This is like the Jehovahs knocking on your door first thing Saturday morning.
Why not host the CD content online and put an ad on JerseyInsight or in the JEP. Then people could listen/download online if they were interested. Then donate the monies to a worthy charity or give it to me.
I suspect it would not get many downloads.
Report abuse
@77 Christian Man
Think I’ll risk enjoying my life, with the anticipation that rather than my body rotting away in the ground when I’ve died, that I might instead get the opportunity to travel down this mysterious and (scientifically proven) made up road of yours. Draw a map on the back of the cd cover will you?
Report abuse
What to do with this CD?
1.Hang from car mirror, so i don’t get caught in speed camera! (i know that doesn’t work!)
2.Make into a nice coaster for the bar!
3.Get a load and make a nice wind charm !
4.Use to signal any Aliens, tilt towards the Sun.
5.Give to Aunty as a Christmas Present !
6.Collect them all and send them to Lady Gaga, she can make a dress, boots,hat and bag from them!
My list goes on………
Report abuse
I’m glad to have one – thank you.
Report abuse
I think I will listen to the CD because
I am intrigued to know if they have deleted Mark 16:9-20 for the sake of truth and accuracy, (I’ll bet they haven’t). In academic theological circles it is known that there is good evidence that these verses were not in the original earliest Mark, but were added later by someone who wanted to give the abrupt original Mark a “suitable” ending. We don’t know how much later, but whatever the time period, it would have to be added on after 70 AD, when the gospel attributed to Mark was written, about 40 years after the alleged death of Jesus in around 27 AD. The Romans destroyed the Temple in 70 AD, so Mark is thought to have been writing around that time. So lets give his Gospel a round number like say 60 years after the crucifixion, (it could be much more). Stale News?
Report abuse
Donald pond #90
And where has the money come from to produce and distribute the CDs? You can bet a portion from very poor people who were tricked into donating money to a cause that promises to save their soul. If the concept was invented today it would be illegal but it’s been around for 2000 years so that’s enough justification not to outlaw or even question the practice.
Report abuse
IS RELIGION GOOD AND CARING? it tells catholic women to put up with far more children than they might CHOOSE, putting up with a husband who may well no longer care nor want a wife, and that woman is told every week to REPENT FOR HER SINS. i don’t think catholic women are served by religion. RELIGION FAILS WOMEN.
Report abuse
I see the earlier post thought that JP were wright to refuse to deliver this.
Kind of begs the question why the christmas stamps aren’t refused for the same reasons!
Report abuse
As a non-Christian, I must say that there are a lot of anti-Christians posting here who seem to have a very odd idea of the way modern christianity works. It seems that bigotry knows no religious bounds.
It was the very great DH Lawrence who said that one of the marks of being a man was to never stop looking for God. I don’t think anyone would accuse him of being a Christian apologist, btw.
Report abuse
100. Donald Pond.
Just wondering why you aren’t a Christian then?
How does modern Christianity work?-Is it different from original Christianity then? Has it evolved, as in Process Theology?
I don’t agree with D.H. Lawrence,-though I suspect he just meant, we should never stop trying to improve ourselves and make new discoveries.
Report abuse
I’m not a christian because I’m an innate sceptic, although I don’t discount the possibility of God revealing himself to people, he just never has done to me. But if we accept that mainstream Christianity in Jersey is not Catholic, then from what I have seen it is not the repressive dictatorial stuff that it is being portrayed as here. I don’t think, for example, that modern christianity is much bothered by contraception, the concept of hell, homosexuality, masturbation etc. It’s more about how can we act in a just and responsible way in the manner of the example set by Jesus and his teachings.
And while I have real misgivings about St Paul and his teachings and the pronouncements of many of the popes, there isn’t really much to object to in the gospels themselves. And if there is, what’s wrong with being exposed to stuff that challenges your assumptions now and again, even if it is only to remind you of why you reject it?
Don’t disagree with DH Lawrence though. His sensibility was fantastic and original and wise and modern, even if his novels have aged badly.
Report abuse
In my previous post I said :-
“I had to take a moment to remind myself that all this is about someone that made blind people see, the deaf hear, dead people raised back to life! All this I think is attractive and someone I want to follow”.
This seemed to rattle a few people but consider that all of these physical manifestations had a spiritual conterpart. Jesus seemed to criticise only the Spiritual Leaders, saying they were blind and deaf. As a former atheist I admit to struggle with religion, and I don’t consider myself to be religious, however I try to follow Jesus.
Some have mentioned Richard Dawkins, I wouldn’t take my car to the fishmonger to get it repaired, why would I get any spiritual insight from Richard Dawkins?
No one has made any mention of the fact that there are countries where it is illegal to own a Bible. Maybe it’s time to think that when you get the CD in your hand that people have been killed and are being killed for owning a Bible or for being a Christian. Check out persecution in North Korea and other countries.
Christians seem to have a bad press on this forum and the question has been asked if this is a good way to spend money. Just two projects that you may not know about, a Christian organisation has set up over a 100 food banks around the UK to help people in crisis. Another Christian organisation gives help to people in debt, a friend of mine was due to loose their home two months ago and they advised how to budget and went to court with them and a budget plan. They are still living in their own home. There are many, many other Christian programmes to get involved with. Perhaps if some social programme had been implemented and not a CD distribution there would have been less criticism?
I understand that atheists on here seem to have an evangelistic zeal for their beliefs but speaking as a former atheist, Christians aren’t all bad.
Just to make it clear I don’t know the people involved in the CD distribution.
Report abuse
102 Donald
Thing is, you are assuming the existence of God, which I do not. Jesus (if it was he), made some good universal humanistic points about living in harmony and getting on with each other,-but not unique, and not a reason to worship him as a god, especially as he appears to have invented eternal hell-fire for those won’t blindly obey him. I have just been reading a Socratic dialogue, and he comes over as being far more civilised and humanistic than Jesus,–but I don’t worship him either.
I think Jesus was in favour of the Lesser Commission, ie to take his message to Israel (only). It was Matthew and Paul who had the bright idea of converting the Roman world,–perhaps in revenge for the sack of Jerusalem in the (1st) Roman-Jewish war?
I am not concerned with modern Christianity’s attitude to hommosexuality etc,-that is just sociology; what I object to is supernaturalism being foisted upon me as if it was a scientific fact, and being used to undermine children’s education by teaching them lies about how the world and Universe works.
God has never revealed himself to me either; doesn’t that suggest something to you about his
putative existence?–unless of course you are in favour of the modern notion of a metaphorical God?
Report abuse
What’s annyoed people here is the disrespectful timing. It is offensive to many people to send out faith CDs so close to 9/11. 10 years on Christians think the world has forgotten those who lost their lives to religious fervour. Faith can’t move mountains but it sure can shift skyscrapers.
Report abuse
Having been away for a few weeks and just got back I can’t believe what I am reading.
As a non believer myself, I don’t care for this type of material, however I certainly would not find it offensive.
What I do find offensive is the hatred been spewed out by some on these pages with regards to other people rights to follow a faith.
People, we are talking about a religous CD. It’s not child pornography or pictures of kittens being brutally massacred. No-one is forcing you down on bended knees to recite the rosary. It is a CD to promote Christianity. Some may find that of some interest or comfort. Some, like me will just throw it in the bin and get on with their lives. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. Christian’s included. We are in the 21st century and, like most businesses/organisations these days, mail shots are the way to drum up business.
Please, live and let live and try not to get so upset.
More interestingly though, I wonder if the original decision by Jersey Post would be the same if the CD had been promoting Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism etc.
Report abuse
“Thing is, you are assuming the existence of God, which I do not”
No, you are wrong. I am resolutely agnostic. However, it would be a fool who was certain that God did not exist (in fact, the only committed athiest I have ever met is now a priest, I think they just believe things very strongly, regardless of the belief itself). Unless God speaks to you directly (and one could always question the psychology behind that), whereof one cannot speak one must be silent etc.
You read Plato? Good on you. My real objection to the CD is on environmental grounds. If it made a few people whose reading matter didn’t extend beyond the JEP and OK! expand their horizons it would be great. But I suspect at least 95% of these CDs will be thrown away, unopened, and the rest will only be heard by those who already believe. So it’s waste of time and money and environmental resources, but not offensive.
Report abuse
103. Moonraker
One aspect of Christian thinking is that they create parallel Universes, or, a dualism in which there is a “spiritual” world as well as the real one in which we live. Without a satisfactory definition of “spiritual” (and we have never had one), this action only infringes Ockam’s Razor, without contributing any new information, but only causing confusion.
People may be killed for owning a bible but this is because the bible is seen as a socially divisive force which causes conflict wherever it is used, and always has done, including killing,-a fact that you do not mention in your reference to North Korea.
Yes it is true of course that Christians provide aid and charity,-but then so do secular organisations and individuals; (see “Unbelievers giving aid”, and “Medecin sans frontiers”), so you cannot claim a monopoly here either.
Incidentally, speaking as a former Christian, atheists aren’t all bad; (the inverse of your argument).
Report abuse
When god hand delivers it personally I will believe in him.
The church and many religions are a feudal way of instilling law and order through fear while extracting cash.
Very much like our council of ministers and their policies regarding slashing services vs raising taxes.
Report abuse
Bean about a bit.
You need to get about a bit more. I have just read the postings from top to bottom and have not identified any ‘hate being spewed out’. Please spare us your histrionics!
If there is any that I have missed you are able to click on the ‘Report abuse’ link because inciting religious hatred may well be a criminal offence.
Folks on here are generally debating the existence or otherwise of god(s). Some, in fact most, are challenging the arrogance of christians who seem to feel that because they consider it a duty to spread the word, we are somehow obliged to listen to it.
Some, particulalry Mr Le Sueur, is challenging the position that our children are being force fed fairy tales at school and that if they don’t conform they will be damned for eternity in a very hot place. Personally I applaud Mr Le Sueur for his intelligent, focussed and logical arguments.
You are correct that everyone has a right to believe what they like. What I disagree with is being disturbed on a weekend morning by people trying to make me believe what they believe(answering the door naked usually gets rid of them quickly), or receiving unsolicitored junk mail from them.
Report abuse
—anyway,-I’m bored with this topic now, so I am signing off and going on to pastures new.
Farewell ’til next time.
Report abuse
Put a sticker on it addressed as follows, no need for a stamp and pop it into a post box:
Kevin Keen
C/O Post Headquarters
St Helier
Jersey
Report abuse
I’m assuming that all the people that find the idea of religion so offensive will not be celebrating Xmas this year?
I thought not!
Report abuse
I am fascinated by the interest and comments that this has caused.Spirituality is part of life and we should respect each other.I am more interested in the ‘turn around ‘ of Mr.Keen and as to why he once again showed no backbone or principals or support for his employee.
I have to disagree with Mr.Rotherham as Mr.Keen is establishment through and through and will just sit and obey his ‘masters’
As an ex -member of FNHC ,I have never forgotten his appalling display of chairing their Special AGM and his cosy liaison with Senator Perchard.He has been instructed to sort this CD debacle out.!
Report abuse
Reg Le Sueur (76) and superstitious belief that Jesus was a manly warrior who had conquered death
Reg you are right in that the Bible as we know it is a text that has been copied (with errors) and improved ever since the 4th century (the oldest known text). The really controversial fact being that in the original Greek text, Jesus just died and then be body went missing. The risen Christ was only added as an embellishment in later texts. If the Emperor says “it is so”, then ‘it is so’.
History is more complex than religion. ‘Let the junk mail flow and fuel the incinerator.’
Reg (96) This just confirms the above. Religion as history!
Report abuse
Bean About A Bit (106) I don’t care for this type of material, however I certainly would not find it offensive.
Reading the above posts I can only conclude that religion, in all its forms, has had a good airing
Report abuse
I wish the witness of Jehova did mail shipping instead of door to door.
The church is collapsing, and they do not know what to do to attract people.
I am a Darwinist and believe in evolution, and not in some old stories.
People laughed at Galileo when is said the earth wasn’t flat but round. That was well after the birth of Jesus.
Religion is like a big sect. Sects are know to take advantage of their members.
And going to confession is the best way to know what everybody is up to.
I still go to church by respect and tradition, but looking at all the death over the crusade (and many more around the world) in the name of gods, it does make you wonder.
Report abuse
Some horribly mistaken ideas about Christianity here. First of all, a person doesn’t choose to believe in God. Either you are given the grace to believe or not. The responses here are the result of God’s judgment on/for individuals; few here believe, obviously. He has restrained grace. We have free will, but free will goes only for evil until one believes in Jesus Christ. Only then can anyone choose right over wrong, to honor the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob – and our Prince of Peace. I am so glad to be in the States, where I can be with so many other Christians! Jersey sounds like a horrifying place. I won’t further discuss this as I’m surely casting pearls before swine. One thing only: read John 3:16 and John 6:44. Hint: they’re not in the Gospel of Mark… ;>)
Report abuse
Reginald Le Sueur
Moonraker
I defend the right of people not to be censored by the likes of the JEP or others on this board, and contrary to your assumption i am not a church-goer, nor will i listen to the very small CD ‘forced’ through my letter box.
However i do feel that people do not defend the freedoms we enjoy, indeed we take far too much for granted.
Many peoples in the world risk their lives fighting for the right to read/write and express themselves. If the cost of our freedom ( and that of our neighbour ) is to suffer the uninvited letter/cd then i think we should count ourselves very lucky.
Report abuse
“GOODLY AETHIEST” @98 -Well said and relevant to some other sects and faiths.
According to feminists; If god exsists SHE is a woman !
Have not had time to read all the other posts but it seems likely that a man called Jesus did exist. Much beyond that remains in the realms of speculation and anecdote.
From the texts which survived the ‘cherry picking’ by the churches; Sociologists might refer to an individual such as Jesus as a ‘positive deviant’
Although there is offensive content in the bible (particularly in the old testament) and offencive action by Christians and other religious people across history, -it is likely that the bible is sufficiently ‘omnipresent’ in our society that it is unlikely to cause any real offence, so there is probably a n element of ‘drama queening’ going on to get the point across.
There are a number of ‘positive deviants’ in our society and even in our states chamber.
Syvret could be the arch-typical local ‘positive deviant’ and I just love the ‘Massiah’ analogy which (mysteriously) works in so many ways but with interesting differences.
We are given to believe that Jesus was more polite than Syvret but he apparently had a more relaxed attitude to lawbreaking and direct action (ref. overturning the money lender’s tables), whereas Syvret has restricted himself to words.
Jesus was perhaps a more cynical political operator; ref. “give unto Ceaser what is Ceaser’s”. Which in my opinion gives tacit approval of violent military conquest and occupation. This may have been a sensible answer but I feel that it was behaviour unbecoming of the alleged sun of an alleged god.
I wonder what Syvret would have said ? I hope that he would have said something like ‘There is no practical option to paying taxes to the Roman empire given their [current] power’ which should not have put his life at additional risk but would have avoided compromising himself.
Jesus probably used the Roman roads but I don’t expect that the Romans ran many hospitals for the locals – so no easy get out there. I was impressed with Syvret’s down to earth attitude to taxation but I don’t recall many comments on wealth creation, though I imagine that he was also realistic and insightful in this area.
I also see Reg Le Sueur (& Joker etc.) as ‘positive deviants’ and I just love the irony of their evangelical zeal.
Their observations and criticisms are pertinent and relevant but I would observe that “belief” in something appears to be part of the ‘human condition’. As is the tendency for beliefs to split into sects and sub-sects. In the west (excluding USA ?) organised religion is probably in decline but I hate to break it to you guys: I think that you are on a LOOSER ! – Not because you are
wrong but because, as said, it is part of the human condition (at least until we get that “DNA upgrade” referred to by one of the
more surreal posters #55 at: http://www.thisisjersey.com/2011/08/11/we-have-lost-sight-of-the-rights-of-victims
Truly a classic (lol)
- Seriously though: scientists have identified genes apparently responsible for ‘religious vlulnerability’, so an ‘upggrade’ in this respect is actually possible although the removal of what is in fact a survival mechanism, from the human genome should not be considered lightly.
In short: Religion is here to stay for the foreseeable and humanism could be just another antagonistic division in a divided and dangerous WMD world.
I would be interested to hear people’s comments on the concept of ‘Inclusive Humanism’ which goes some way to making Humanism a more practical achiever of progress and human unity across the globe and into the future.
)
(do you love the irony of ‘Inclusive Humanism’ itself being a division of a sect ?
For those who may be offended by my remarks ref Jesus etc. I would like to say that I do not think that RLS or Syvret are more
popular than the Beatles
x.
P.S. Contrary to the feminist “she joke” -If god does exist then it is quite obvious that he is a man – A woman would not make
such a ‘balls up’ of the world !
Report abuse
Well, I cannot believe that posting a CD can cause so much hostility. If Jersey is becoming a non-christain society then why not give up the Christian related bank holidays – oh yeah just as I thought YOU WON’T!!!
Like most – want your cake and eat it!!!
Report abuse
O all right, I’m back for an encore by popular request. Thanks for your kind words, 110 Lucy Fer.
118. From Mitchigan
Please point out the “horribly mistaken ideas about Christianity” that we hold. What you go on to describe sounds like standard Christian doctrine to me, and that is why I for one, reject it.
If you don’t like swine (118), stay out of the pig sty!
119. Jonathon
Unable to quite see your drift here. Are you saying that this CD takes the credit for our freedom, and that therefore we are morally bound to accept it? Does that apply to anything put through our letter-box, like petrol-bombs from anarchists, who are only exercising their freewill?
These CD’s are intended to cause social unrest and division (which they certainly are doing!). We are thankfully already a fairly civilised society with freedom to choose how we think and believe, but that is not enough for evangelists;-we have got to think like them. Pure brainwashing.
As I write, I have just received another brainwashing attempt by email from “businessconnect”, with whom I have been corresponding for some time, (in self-defence).
Will they never cease with this “Great Commission” of theirs? Silly question.
Report abuse
Double standards by Jersey Post, they’ll refuse to deliver this CD but say they can not refuse to deliver scam mail, even though they know it is defrauding people out of £1,000s.
Report abuse
From Michigan
“We have free will, but free will goes only for evil until one believes in Jesus Christ”
I love this stuff – and its sooooo American. So if I think freely I’m evil …..unless I think freely within the constraints of your beliefs!
This reminds me of a scenario I saw on an American Bible TV channel – the three presenters all held hands and prayed because all the viewers had been possessed by a devil that was stopping them from calling in for a $20 Bible – Bingo!! The cash came rolling in from those who wanted to be assured that they were not possessed
So much for freedom – most of those buyers probably couldn’t afford the book.
This posting from Michigan is the type of posting that gets Religion/The Church a bad name – if Jesus really did turn over the tables at the temple then some of those people extracting money through religion should fear judgement day more than honest atheists/agnostics
Report abuse
118 – From Michigan, “Some horribly mistaken ideas about Christianity” Wow, thats interesting, especally proceeding your explanation of christianity.
I see a lot of comments to your contradictory post, You have to be from America to have said what you have and not just be trolling. Next your going to say that the Americans beat the English in your war for inderpendance.
So, according to your post, You cannot choose to believe in God? God chooses if you can believe in him or not!
We all have free will and that choice is simple. believe in the big JC, or your evil? (Not really free will, more of a choose this or else!)
Only if you believe in Jesus, then can you choose to do bad or good?
So, according to you, anyone who does not believe in God, must be evil, but cannot choose to do bad things (or be able to do good things) and so cannot be punished for it in the afterlife (or even in this life apparently?).
Inversely, Someone who does something good, has to believe in Jesus?
This is only what you have explained to help people believe in your correct idea of Christianity.
Oh and 113 – God Botherer, Whilst I dont find the idea of religion offensive (only missunderstood religion), what has Xmas got to do with religion? I celibrate it without any christian influance, Its a festive holiday to celibrate midwinter. Alwasy has been, for thousands of years. (unlike the baby Jesus thing that came in afterwards)
Report abuse
120.Thanks Nude Girl, for the “deviant” epithet.
I was just about to point out that in to-night’s JEP, Ramsay Cudlipp appears to be on the side of us heathens; we do indeed find the CD deliveries
“unpalatable and “patronising”.
One is tempted to say, “so there!”
Report abuse
Re 121
“why not give up the Christian related bank holidays” can I please remind you that Xmas was in fact a Pagan festival hijacked by the christians – or do you still believe that jesus was actally born in December and that there were sheppard’s watching sheep – despite lambing season being in spring?
Report abuse
From Mitchigan
“I am so glad to be in the States, where I can be with so many other Christians!”
- I too am pleased that you are in the States with your like minded sheeple. Please stay there.
Report abuse
From Michigan #118
So you’re saying that the reason I and others don’t believe is because God has willed it. Tell me then, how can I be dammed for all eternity for not believing if he doesn’t let me believe? Even God can’t have it both ways.
I choose not to believe or follow religion because there is no evidence to back up the stories but plenty to disprove. You consider as God not extending his grace but seeing as the facts are the same for both of us and do not change based on ones perception then I think you need to re-visit your theory. Despite my choice I can also assure you that my free will does not condone evil (in the moral sense). That’s because right and wrong have nothing to do with God or religion but human decision based on genetics and environment.
Jersey is fine thank you and fortunately has no sway in the world’s fortune. Same cannot be said for your country and what concerns many here is the nonsense being taught to the next generation of young Americans such as creationalism; that a nation that won the space race is now sliding backwards into believing superstition and funding for science is being eradicated and bedtime stories are promoted as fact. Also concerning is that a popular Presidential candidate has offered to give the governance of your great nation back to God. How long until he hears God telling him to wipe out a Muslim state? We can only hope that moderate Christians and secular groups win the day otherwise we’re all doomed and I would really hate to be killed by ignorance.
God Botherer #113
Actually I will celebrate Xmas. I just won’t be celebrating Christmas.
Report abuse
By the way GB at 113 is a different one to me who posted at 81.
The unfortunate truth GB is that the christians hijacked most of the pagan festival dates as part of their great plan to convert the masses. They couldn’t quite master Samhain (Halloween to you) so began lying to the people about it being an evil festival to worship the dead, witches and other such tripe.
It is nothing more than a rememberance festival for our ancestors. Japan had one yesterday.
I still celebrate midwinter, spring, summer and autumn festivals. The christians don’t own the dates.
Report abuse
Just thinking #121
If you did a bit of thinking you’d do a bit of research. If you did a bit of research you’d find that Christian holidays actually hijacked older pagan holidays. But like the teachings themselves because they’ve been promoted under a certain group called Christians for so long, people no longer question their origin or reason and accept them as always being like that.
Nurd Girl #120
You raise some interesting points and you are right about the ‘religious’ gene, which IMHO is some survival chicanery to plug the gaps of the unexplainable – some use a god, some accept we’re too stupid to figure out the answer (yet). I’m not sure why as ‘positive deviants’ mine and RLS’ points are ironic though; just because the gene exists doesn’t mean God put them there unless of course you meant our futile attempts to promote fact in a world of programmed fiction believers?
Report abuse
Like I said. I thought not.
Some of these non christians are as hypocritical as the christians themselves!
Report abuse
#100 Donald, well said. Bigotry is bigotry and prejudice is prejudice, regardless of who the target is. Alas, when it comes to being anti-Christian people wish to stay in ignorance.
#108 In some countries where the Bible is banned it’s nothing to do with it wrongly being seen as a divisive tool rather because the leaders are dictators and do not wish it to be suggested to people that their leader isn’t the supreme being.
As far as I can see no-one has moaned about the Town Crier being delivered. Now that really IS offensive because we actually pay for that piece of junk, never mind the trees that were cut down to print it!
Report abuse
#131 Weird, lots of Christians know how the holidays came around, they’re just not silly enough to think that the date itself actually matters
It’s not the date that’s important it’s whatever is being observed on that date. You can’t observe something without observing it on ‘a date’!
Are you going to moan about the dates for mother’s day, father’s day, veterans’ day etc.?
Come to think of it you should, what is more offensive than how mother’s day is shoved down our throats for numerous weeks every year? It’s not just a CD through the post that we can dispose of or turn into a shiny coaster, it’s everywhere you go and all over the media. Now if anyone wants to know what indoctrination is, that’s pretty much it!
Report abuse
Bod Botherer II #132
If you ‘think not’ then where is the hypocrisy? I’ll assume you didn’t mean to contradict yourself and explain in simple logic why non Christians take holidays at the same time as Christians. If someone says I need to take a statutory holiday I’m hardly going to come into work, and I’m not into martyrdom to prove a point. Anyway, see under ‘”hijacked pagan holidays”, I don’t suppose you’ll be celebrating pagan rituals? No, I didn’t think so.
Report abuse
133. Leah
I explained “bigotry” in a previous post; perhaps you did not read it.
Ignorance! –of what? Atheists, myself included have studied the bible and Christianity) in greater detail than many of the Christians who post here,–especially those who do not even know that Britain and elsewhere, had loads of “pagan” festivals, and that these were forceably Christianised a mere 1500 or so years ago, by the Romans and Romanised Celts and Saxons. If as you say, they already know all about it they give a good impression of being ignorant, such as the persons who wonder what we will do on December 25th without Jesus. If they already know, why do they ask? Some of them have vaguely heard of “Winterval” or the Winter Solstice Festival,
- but only to angrily reject it for the sake of Jesus. Would there be no singing and joy and bright lights and exchanging presents with Jesus?–I don’t think so.
Yes you are partly right about the Bible being socially divisive because it is seen as a rival to the Supreme Leader,-but it is also divisive everywhere, including schools, family homes, and in legitatimate benign governments.
Christians adopted Neo-Platonism. Plato himself attempted to foist his idea of the Philosopher- King on the ruler of Syracuse in the 4th centrury BCE; he got thrown out for his pains. The Christians inherited his interfering policies.
Report abuse
Leah #134
Do you honestly think that if our government passed a law stating that Easter and the associated statutory holiday had to be celebrated in October and not April there wouldn’t be uproar from the Christian community in particular? I bet the Pope would even have something to say. To be fair I wouldn’t blame them.
The Town Crier etc may be dross, but they do not use emotional leverage such as the promise of eternal life for your allegiance, or state to have the moral high ground because they follow a specific piece of scripture. If you find an error in the Town Crier the editor would correct or retract the error. If you find an error with scripture you get called a bigot/heathen/the devil etc and are seen as unworthy and unequal.
Back to the main point (and annoyance) of all this is that despite everyone agreeing that every person, business or religion should be treated equally, for some reason Christian religion gets preferential treatment. E.g. if you received some other literature through your door promising something it cannot possibly hope to deliver (or the exact same thing under another name) I guarantee Kevin Keen would have stuck to his guns because it’s new, it’s minority, could prey on the vulnerable, cannot be proven and is nonsense. Yet stick a cross on the cover and call it the Good News and it becomes marketable and all of a sudden Mr Keen is worried about offending somebody even though he knows that most people consider it nothing more than a bed time story.
Report abuse
Leah. 134
Actually the dates do matter. They mattered for Christians because it was important that they should destroy a particular major pagan festival eg the Winter Solstice, by using that precise date, Dec. 25th to claim the birth of Jesus; cooincidence?-I don’t think so.
It mattered to pagans because this was the 3rd day after the apparent death of the Sun on 21st, the true solstice. On the 3rd day the Sun was seen to begin to rise again,-or at least, was seen to be edging its way back into the northern hemisphere, after reaching its southernmost point and then stopping.
Obviously modern people no longer follow this reason literally,-they just want a good knees-up to lighten the winter gloom,-aspecially as we all know more astronomy now, and realize that the movement of the Sun is not controlled by any gods.
We can thank Copernicus and Galileo for that (rebels against Catholic geocentric doctrine). I don’t recall Jesus giving lectures on modern astronomy to anybody.
Beware straw-man arguments that try to label as “bigots” or “fundamentalists” anyone who wants to believe what they wish (in the light of better evidence), and celebrate public festivals they way they want. The logical fallacy of “equivocation” is used to twist and distort the meaning of words in order to try and win a debate. Bigots and fundamentalists impose their beliefs on others; freethinkers oppose bigots and fundamentalists,-that is the real definition.
Sorry to have to go over this elementary stuff all over again; boring I know.
Report abuse
I absolutely get why non christians celebrate Xmas. Why wouldn’t they. Holidays, presents, general good times had by all.
As a non christian myself, I do the Christmas thing. I am happy for my kids to sing Christmas Carols at school, and if friends and family choose to go to Midnight Mass then that’s up to them. I am happy for them to do that. I choose not to follow a faith, but it doesn’t bother if that people around me do. Live and Let Live.
What I object to is the number of people on this forum who have clearly stated that they find religion offensive, to the level that a harmless CD coming through the letterbox has stirred such an outrage of shock and disgust that some feel compelled to smash it into a thousand pieces and send it back to the post office, but then are happy quite to celebrate Christmas, which regardless as to whether it was originally a Pagan festival or not, is celebrated around the world today to mark the birth of Christ, whether you believe in him or not.
I wonder whether these outraged people rip up their christmas cards (ones with religous reference) and post them back to sender. Do they cover their ears when they hear Christmas Carols, God forbid, carol singers come to the door. Do they refuse to let their children participate in christmas pantomines, nativity plays etc. Would they refuse to attend a church wedding if invited, or a friends christening or funeral.
There is one thing being a non christian (like me) but still taking part because you accept that other people have faith and you want to be part of the festivities, but it is a different matter when someone screams blue murder and ‘claims’ to be offended, but then still participates because it suits.
By the way, just to clear up any confusion, My moniker is God BothererII as I hadn’t realized there was already a God Botherer who posted at 81. Bod Botherer is also me, but that was a typo!
Report abuse
139. God Botherer II
I agree that one can overreact to this CD matter; I don’t want it, I don’t need it, but I am not so bovvered that I am going to throw a tantrum over it. We can all find common groumd. Christmas exists, so does the Solstice Festival and general knees-up which now underlie the Christian festival for historical reason. We can all celebrate as we choose; but we don’t want the choice made for us. I sing carols and religious music in local choral groups, because it is fun. I meet people, I like the Latin language in which some of it is written. I don’t believe a word of it; it is fiction and poetry, but I like the music and bonhomie. Ny family do what they like, but being good girls they tend to follow their father’s opinion, but that is entirely their affair. Why don’t we all try to get along?
Report abuse
Sorry to question your judgement “God Botherer II” but imho the moniker “Bod Botherer” is almost as brilliant as many of the posts on this thread !
Why not stick with ‘Bod Botherer’
? -and we will try to forget that it was only a typo.
Report abuse
well, i for one like getting free stuff, the good JW people knocked on my door, i invited them in and after 4 hours they promised they would return the following week to collect their religious book. after 3 years of waiting i moved address – a miracle! within a week they found me at my new address, I invited them in, but they declined however they gave me a cool magazine.
I have to say i was a bit disappointed with the CD though, because i thought it was a special offer from SKY TV
Report abuse
If I put my hippie hat on and listen to the vibes you people make then I feel nothing but bitterness and anger coming from you christian-critics. Kind of a hatred and contempt really which is a tremendous anti-advert for your own stance. Christianity does have a huge heritage and presence in Jersey. I understand that on an average Sunday in Jersey the number of people going to church is still in the thousands (there are a surprising number of churches in the island whose individual attendance on a Sunday is measured in hundreds). There is one missionary organisation alone in the Uk whose full time volunteers number 18,000 including some from Jersey. These people are staffing aids hospitals in Africa, hospital ships, digging wells in the 3rd world, opening schools in the poorest countries, helping locals to be self sustaining, sponsoring families to take in aids orphans and orphans, digging toilets in diseased ravaged poverty and give if necessary their lives to help the helpless. I know because I have spend 20 years raising money anonymously for them. Who are you lot to carp at their religion unless you too are doing works like these and putting your energy and money where your mouth is? Every single one of these volunteers has a different story with one similarity – they say they led selfish lives until they made a relationship with Jesus. Neither, in my extensive travels, do I hear them wasting time whingeing about others. I guess some people have some good priorities and have got themselves a life.
Report abuse
143. Leif R
Maybe you have not heard of Christopher Hitchens’ challenge: “Name me one action performed by a believer that could not also be done by an un-believer”.
Believers do not have a monopoly on “good works”.
There are plenty of secular charities at work everywhere, and unlike Christian charities they perform their tasks without the overt or covert aim of conversion.
Report abuse
Bean around a bit. Well said. This has just become a slagging match to those few who still have faith. I too have found more comfort in reading The God delusion but there is room on this planet for both. Have a little faith, whatever shade it is.
Report abuse
I have only posted two comments on here and received some very interesting comments and criticism. The question is, have I been offended? My answer not in the slightest. In fact I have enjoyed the comments and in particular those of Reg Le Sueur. As a follower of Jesus I always enjoy talking to people that do not believe in God. I think it is stimulating and thought provoking. Has it affected my faith? Not in the slightest. So, I originally found it difficult to think why anyone would have been offended by the distribution of the CD. However, it seems in this PC world that many people get offended very easily. My natural reaction would be learn to live with it! Having said that, I appreciate that some people have been deeply hurt and wounded by religion in the past and if you are one of those, you have my sympathy. That is why I don’t consider my self religious because I wouldn’t want to be associated with the awful things done in the name of God.
If atheists or anyone else want to post CDs through my door they are very welcome, will I be offended? Absolutly not. There have been so many comments about Christianity on here I would love to answer but it would take a long time and my time is limited.
Reg said in post #144 Maybe you have not heard of Christopher Hitchens’ challenge: “Name me one action performed by a believer that could not also be done by an un-believer”.
I suppose the obvious answer is to worship God. Sorry Reg, just an attempt at humour.
Also a reminder that I am not connected with the CD distribution, I don’t want them to get any blame for my opinions.
Report abuse
I suppose I made my comments because there is another side to the story and it doesn’t involve a “few”. Christians are suppose to aspire to tolerance, and maybe that’s why there is not a queue of enraged christian in this column. I quite agree that believers don’t have a monopoly on good works, but I think it is extremely disrespectful and intolerant to rubbish their faith when so many people have turned to do “good works” because of that same faith. No argument there, and humility about it is a good thing. I agree that we should “make room” on this planet and on the island, and if more people did that in Jersey, moaning and wingeing about others wouldn’t be such a national past time.
Report abuse
I can understand the desire to have more Christianity in society. It certainly seems to work in America – 50% church attendance and a good dollop of religion in society and politics, despite the suppose separation of church and state. More Christianity in our private lives and in our politics would stop a lot of social problems we suffer in wicked, secular Europe: teen pregnancy, divorce, lone-parent families, violent crime murder… But America has far, far higher incidences of these ‘social problems’ than we do! The highest rate of lone parents in the Western world. Funnily enough the highest rates of these very problems are in Bible Belt states. Funnily enough secular liberal democracies in Europe have far, far lower rates of these problems. In fact wherever in the world Bibles are bashed with gay abandon the very same societies have high rates of teen pregnancy and lone parents. Oddly enough, moving away from the West, funny things happen if you look at Africa: the more Christian a country in Africa, the higher its HIV infection rate – the more Muslim the lower (see: http://www.martinrothonline.com/MRCC11.htm).
Take a step back in time and was Victoria society more moral than our present day society? The churches were full, the Bible better known, yet it was society with child prostitution, children forced to work in appalling conditions, not much fairness in society with little access to legal redress unless you were rich. Factory owners made millions and lived in mansions while their workers worked for pennies and lived in hovels. A look at Victorian parish registers shows that a third of babies baptised were conceived before their parents were married. Christian Britain happily enslaved half the world in its Empire. Was society better off in the Victorian era or now? Churches fuller, Bible better known and yet the lot of the masses was pretty miserable.
So it would seem (if the general trend exhibited in the rest of the world is followed or our past) that if the CD was really to take hold, it is likely our society will see more crime, more teenage pregnancy, more divorce and more single parent families. Is this what we want?
Thanks a lot!
Report abuse
If the non-believers are wrong there will be a lot of back tracking and brown trousers so to speak. If the believers are wrong it won’t matter to either side as neither will be in a position to worry about it!
Just because you can’t see something doesn’t mean it can’t exist. Is it a good idea to behave just in case of some sort of after life? Or is it a case of do what one wants in this life and stuff the consequences? Maybe a bit of grovelling will do the trick? Time will tell.
If people are so anti-religion then why oh why celebrate the likes of Christmas or Yuletide? Why take Sunday’s off instead of working? Why oh why get married in church or have a funeral in church and get a burial in a grave yeard?
Whatever anyone says the church has enabled the peasants one day off a week from the drudgery that masquerades as work for many years!
Reg I find your line of thought a bit odd. If you don’t believe why participate in such festivals? It is a bit like going to see a cricket match when you hate cricket just because you get a day off with your mates.
Do you send Christmas cards or Yuletide cards by the way?
As for charities there would be no need for them if people shared with others more than they do at present, where too many are greedy self serving individuals who are only in it for themselves, regardless of the effects on others. Whilst some have too much many more have too little.
Report abuse
In reply to Jersey Royal, Clearly you have deeply held beliefs but here are a few more stats for you:- This from the Prison Reform Trust
“Prison has a poor record for reducing reoffending – 49% of adults are reconvicted within one year of being released – for those serving sentences of less than 12 months this increases to 59%. For those who have served more than 10 previous custodial sentences the rate of reoffending rises to 77%”.
And this from The Langley House Trust a Christian Organisation dealing with ex prisoners “2.2% re-offend”.
The conclusion that some might draw is that Christian influence works and that ex offenders actually benefit and get their lives straight. You seemed to draw the conclusion in your post that society would detriate and get worse. It might help you if you think of Christianity as a personal relationship with God, not a country.
Report abuse
148. JerseyRoyal
No indeed. Our world has grown too big for the parochialism of small tribe, in-group, petty religio-politics that worships a book as much as, or even less, than the supposed author of that book. Getting right with Jesus is so small world, and the believers cannot see the bigger picture. They think they can stabilise a complex 21st century society of billions of people, on a wing and a prayer, and a few pious passages from their holy book. They cannot decide whether primitive communism, ie giving away your possessions to the poor, and thereby joining their ranks, is the way forward, or else to indulge in rampant Capitalistic wealth creation, at each other expense,-dog eat dog style. Just what Jesus did (not) command;–or did he? The parable of the ten talents seems to show a healthy regard for using them to create profit and interest. Their desire to do the right thing has as its cause the ultmate goal of getting to Heaven, and being given a pat on the back by God for being such good little slave-zombies.
If work needs to be done, children fed, and educated and vaccinated, septic tanks dug, and clean water supplied; just do it, or better, get the government involved on a massive scale-not for Jesus, or in order to boast how Christian you are, but for the poor people themselves.
Report abuse
And if posting a CD of the bible through everyone’s letterbox isn’t bad enough, do you all realise that a group of people known as ‘Open The Book’ (yes and there’s no guesing which book) have oppen and unfetterd access to the primary schools on the Island? To go in and tell the story with puppets. To our four, five and six year olds. Only they don’t say that it’s only a ‘story’. And unlike the teachers, they aren’t unbaised in what they say. But the Department of Education gives the grenn light to it. “All part of the christian society which we want our children to grow up in ” apparently. It’s true. Please check with your children’s primary school. Needless to say I have excluded my children from this brain washing indoctrination. But many parents aren’t aware that it is happening.
Report abuse
These facts are ridiculous, as is the link and there is no point in entering into debate if people resort to fantasy to support their views. Very silly if not just plain sad.
Report abuse
Maybe the States Members could make a CD and drop it in the post to all of us, so we could listen to their broken promises!
As I have about as much faith in them too!
Report abuse
153. Leif R
Please elaborate; which facts are ridiculous and why?
In similar vein to PK’s (152) story, I can confirm that I was asked to take part in a service a couple of years ago, to commemorate Gerald Durrel’s work at the Zoo. Firstly, why a “service”?-and at a Zoo of all places? Another example of a place of scientific conservation being highjacked by religion? (yes).
Secondly, the clergy official in charge of the service gave what I interpreted as an anti-evolution speech; namely, he said “the Peacock’s tail is “too beautiful” to have evolved; then to rub it in he continued; “there are undersea creatures which produce their own lights and colourful displays (there are),–the inference presumably being that these too are also “too beautiful” etc,-and that therefore in both cases,–God-did-it.
Now evolution is as factual as anything can be, and one cannot cherry-pick which bits of biology are evolved and which are divinely created. Evolution is either all naturalistically true, or the whole theory of evolution is false, and God-did-indeed-do-it.
So-called “Theistic Evolution” is a false religous concoction, and since theological speculations are not a valid critique of well established scientific theory (“theory” as in the scientific,-not lay, definition),-it follows that science and children’s education is being deliberately corrupted by organised religion in our schools and public institutions.
Report abuse
–ps. With reference to this “Open the Book” campaign to subvert the classroom; I should like to remind those in charge of Jersey’s educational system that Profesor Richard Dawkins’ latest book is aimed specifically to counter the indoctrination of children; it is called “The Magic of Reality”,-subtitled,-”How we know what is really true”.
Try opening this book instead of the other one.
Report abuse
I don’t want to dominate this discussion but one must respond:
Hello again Adrian, nice to hear from you. In your first sentence you present the “Pascal’s Wager” argument. This is well known to philosophers and has been roundly trashed.
1.God is not stupid (supposing he exists), and he will see through believers who are pretending just in case.
2. He will congratulate atheists for being honest and using the brain he gave them, and will send the pious sychophants packing, straight to Hell.
3. Atheists have more intellectual integrity than to believe something just in case it is true.
Secondly:
You are going on about atheists observing Christmas etc; have you not read any of the above previous posts on this subject?
Moonraker 150.
All the statistics I have ever heard are that atheists form a very low proportion of all prison inmates; maybe it is because few of them identify as such, owing to religious bullying by the prison system, and possible loss of perks.,- but I suspect that rather than them being hard atheist/criminals (as you imply) they are merely uninformed and apathetic about everything (including abiding by the Law). On the other hand-there should not be any Christians in prisons at all-, as they are so pure.
Report abuse
Moonraker
Thanks for the comment. On some issues personal faith makes a difference. But again and again research has demonstrated overtly Christian societies suffer MORE social problems than secular liberal democracies. See: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece – partly because people are very good at saying one thing and doing another – as America’s appalling record on divorce, single parent families, teen pregnancy and violent crime demonstrate. These are all higher in Bible Belt states (and far, far higher than you’d find in liberal democracies – oddly enough Finland has the highest rate of two parent families in the Western World and the Netherlands has one of the lowest rates of abortion – despite both societies being socially liberal).
I am actually a believing Christian – but I find the idea of shoving a piece of plastic through someone’s door and thinking you’re spreading the gospel is abhorrent. It is likely the prison stats you have shared demonstrate that when Christians actually ‘do’ something, they get results – and here I mean doing it themselves – rather than rely on faith-based organisations, as these, particularly in mainland Britain, tend to be heavily reliant on the taxpayer and a non-believing workforce (80% of the Salvation Army’s income is from government – either via charging for services or direct grants; Leeds Catholic Care – the org. making such a fuss about gay adoption having an impact on its income, only raises 2.6% of its income from donation, the taxpayer provides the rest (see: http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/Showcharity/RegisterOfCharities/CharityWithPartB.aspx?RegisteredCharityNumber=513063&SubsidiaryNumber=0) .
A CD thro’ the letter box isn’t doing anything. It is a cheap way of feeling better about oneself – ‘Look what we Christians did, spreading the Gospel.’ But actions speak louder than words and until congregational Christians are prepared to start getting their hands dirty again (rather than paying others by organised charity (tho’ it usually the taxpayer than foots the majority of the bill) or the like); you can mail out as much junk mail as you like, the churches will continue to empty, while their dwindling congregations sit there playing ‘Little Jack Horner’ – only in this case sending out bit of cheap plastic and saying ‘What a good boy am I!’…
Report abuse
While I agree with a lot of your posts on here Adrian, your latest has left me shaking my head. Firstly you assume that if the non-believers are wrong there will be a lot of back tracking. That supposes that the christian god is the one and only. I guess that, as god apparently preaches understanding and forgiveness, it will understand my lack of belief and will forgive me.
If the believers are wrong I would imagine that they have more to worry about. If they are wrong and there is no god then no problem.
However, what if, all these years they have been batting for the wrong god! Oh dear. It must surely be better to say that you don’t follow any god then to admit that you have been fervently cheerleading for the wrong team.
Yes it is a good idea to behave. Otherwise Santa/Easter Bunny wont stop at my house. A trite comment I know it but works on the same principles. It’s a good idea to behave, full stop. Not in the hope of a very remote possibility of a heavenly reward.
Yuletide is not a christian festival.
I take Sunday’s off and Saturdays. The office is shut. I don’t care if my two days off were during the week instead. In fact I would prefer it.
“Why get married in church?” Why get married? “Why have a funeral in church and get a burial in a grave yeard?” Not everyone does Adrian. I won’t. The Crem it is for me. Nothing remotely resemling a religious word shall be uttered or sung.
“If you don’t believe why participate in such festivals?” I have also been to a barn dance and thoughly enjoyed the atmosphere despite not being a cowboy or even a fan of C&W.
Do you send Christmas cards by the way? In what way is sending a mid winter greeting card a christian thing? It only began in the late 1800′s. Jesus never sent cards.
Your last paprgraph is spot on though mate..
Report abuse
Religion is man made…why…? it’s sold as a salve for fear…so it becomes an instrument for power and control…power and control…witch doctors sought…yes…power and control….think for yourselves peeps it’s the only sane way forward.BTW the church is the biggest source of child molestation and paedophilia worldwide bar none with more cases pending than anyone else….makes you think…or ought to.
Report abuse
#160 Zoro, you must be picked up on spreading such disgusting nonsense as you have in that post!
FAMILY MEMBERS are the biggest perpetrators of child abuse worldwide. That is a fact, it has statistics worldwide backing it, you cannot argue it.
Maybe you forget that the media jump on anti-church stories, the ones about child abuse in non-religious schools, non-religious children’s homes and Buddhist-run institutions are abundant! They do make the papers but are certainly not highlighted and given the same amount of coverage!
Still, none of it changes the fact that religion is nothing to do with child abuse, people are. Brothers, followed by uncles, then fathers, and then family friends are the number top perpetrators of child abuse. In fact brothers make up something like 40% of all cases, with uncles not far behind.
Report abuse
1261. Leah
I agree with your statistics; debit where debit is due.
However, the also unargueable fact of child abuse by Catholic priests, (which their Church is desperately trying to sweep under the carpet), rather raises the question of what exactly that institution is for?-and by inference other denominations also.
Christianity is preached as a general moral salvation for all, so Christians above all people should be morally perfect, (despite being human), seeing as how they have had God’s Grace bestowed upon them,–otherwise there is something faulty about God’s Grace,-(but that is another argument). None of them should molest any children,-not one, ever, (as well as never being a prison inmate either).
It will not do to use the “No True Scotsman” fallacy and say “O well, they aren’t real Christians”. If it walks like a Christian and talks like a Christian, it is a Christian.
Report abuse
15. LOCO – “Reminds me of how the Catholic church has sufficient resource to cure all third world debt, but instead spends it on pomposity, golden chalices, extravagent buildings and the like. Pretty much everything the humble son of a carpenter would have been against.
Not to mention the thousands massaging their egos, thinking they’re ‘holier than thou’ for going to church each week in their most grandiose clothes. What if these very people all went out and helped the elderly or disabled every week instead of singing inane hyms on a Sunday?
What a waste of money (which is all tax free, of course).”
Firstly, I think your first point however valid it is, is forgetting the fact that there is a big difference between Protestant and Catholic, yes they both believe in Jesus Christ as our creator and saviour, however there is a big difference in service and system of belief.
And secondly how can you make such a big, and frankly quite pig-headed assumption that just because we go to church on Sunday means we dont help the poor and in-need. The foundation of my belief, as a christian, is that we need to help the last, the least and the lost, and I intend to spend my life doing so. So please in the future ensure that your arguments are built on a solid foundation.
Report abuse
Adrian #149
A reminder, just in case you miss RLS #157 post like you seemed to have missed previous posts before yours, please read RLS #157 post!
Report abuse
164. Thanks Joker. When I was trying to describe Pascal’s Wager to Adrian I missed out an important item; viz. “Suppose they have been worshipping the wrong god,–then what?”. There will be Hell to pay. Maybe it was Quetzalcoatl all along, not Jehovah. I think he, “Quet” was rather fond of freshly torn-out beating hearts and lots of blood,-so watch out!
But later on someone else dutifully added it in to the discussion.
As this CD business is all about Evangelism, I think Pat Condell’s video clip would be appropriate listening: http://richarddawkins.net/videos/512601-drunk-on-religion
Report abuse
Thanks to Leah #161 for correcting that. The sad fact is that sick people will look for opportunies to infiltrate organisations. Look at recent news stories about men and women that have abused children at the pre school groups. Sadly this abuse has included the roman catholic church and is horrific and sickening as are their attempts to cover up. The perpetrators, should have been handed over to the police as soon as it was discovered.
Reg in 162 says
“None of them should molest any children,-not one, ever, (as well as never being a prison inmate either)”. I couldn’t agree more, however, there are many people in prison that are now christians because they converted in prison. (I will wait for you to respond that it was as a result of brainwashing or duress – but perhaps it was as a result of their free will in the same way that you became an atheist because of free will?)
Report abuse
166. Moonraker
O well if you insist.
The existence of Freewill, whether the allegedly God-given theological variety, or just the plain old ability for humans to choose between various options on account of having a large thinking brain with enhanced consciousness of self-and environment, -is a matter of hot philosophical debate; especially as neurophysiological research shows that when we perform any action at all, it happens unconciously and reflexley, rather like a knee-jerk,-and a fraction of a second later our cerebral cortex, where consciousness emerges, is informed of the fact, via the spino-thalamic tracts in the spinal cord, up which the information travels to the thalamus and from there on to the cortex.
This implies that we act unconsciously and without freewill, but that we have the illusion of freewill only.
In other words, what we do is contingent upon prior causes, like, as you say, brain-washing techniques, or more covertly,- gentle but persistent persuasion and repetition, by the likes of the Alpha Course etc, and other evangelists; the result being to change ones way of thinking,-eg becoming converted. Likewise I became an atheist (55 years ago) as a result of various causes; like 1. observing the unholy behaviour of choir boys behind the pews. 2 accidentally coming across a copy of “The Freethinker” magazine while at University. and 3,–all the rest, ie no sign of God or Jesus anywhere, the Problem of Evil and disasters etc, and, when I did Physics and biology, the biochemical, biological and thermodynamic impossibilty of the Biblical God.
I hope that answers your question.
Report abuse
I found Jesus – he was behind the sofa with and old sock, a wine cork and a 50 pence piece – amazing what happens when you hoover up the gaff, shame he was so dull, I stuffed him back there.
Report abuse
Reg just throwing out a few comments to get a reaction and it has!
As regards your comments
1. Either someone believes in something or they don’t so you comment is illogical.
2. What is there to congratulate atheists about? Good works probably would be a reason I suppose if they have done them. Some will qualify and some wouldn’t just as some so called religious people (if God exists and works in the way portrayed).
However I doubt being a nasty so and so and shafting others in this dimension would do it whether from a religious person of any denomination or an atheist if God or an afterlife exists. You may disagree.
3. As I said before just because you can’t see something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I am sure you would agree being a strong believer in the science realm.
4. Please define an atheist as I presume you are one? Do you believe in any sort of afterlife or, is this life all there is, do you think?
5. Please define what you think God is.
Wrong God?
Possible. Also possibly not.
As you have an aversion to a God then if you are right this is irrelevant so there is no “right” God is there?
Also possible that multiple what you call Gods may exist and if all are equal there is no wrong God as such.
Also possible that each interpretation is equally valid due to God having many different facets for want of a better word.
At the core of much of the religious teachings is that people should treat one another in and fair and just manner and not take advantage of others by force, etc. Any decent person would agree 100% with this wouldn’t they?
As for abuse this isn’t justified in any religion that I know of. Maybe you know of some as you appear to know it all with your Googling abilities.
You are equally free to use your “facts” to disprove all of the above.
Reg “If it walks like a Christian and talks like a Christian, it is a Christian.”
I would say that if a person acts as a christian is supposed to as laid out in the teachings then yes, if not, then they are not. Would you agree? If you don’t, show where murder and the likes are encouraged.
God Botherer just a little light reading, thanks for your reply. I don’t assume anything. I did however leave “will” in instead of “could” when I edited my post, sorry about that.
As for behaving it is required in order for a society to exist/function to some degree. Without it chaos would reign.
Indeed yuletide is not a christian festival but it is a religious festival notheless! It is a mid-winter religious festival.
I haven’t seen cards for this part of the year that don’t have some sort of religious connotation. Maybe I am behind the times?
As for wrong God all is possible. As I don’t have all the answers this is the best I can do!
The crem’s gardens are well tended. They always look good when I go past.
Report abuse
169.Adrian.
Bearing in mind the ridiculous exchange we once had concerning Egyptian pyramids,-my response to the above will be brief, as I suspect you are more interested in rhetoric than good explanations.
1. Which comment was that?-please specify.
2. I told you; God would congratulate atheists’ honesty and trying to use the brain he gave them.(this is all hypothetical of course,-just a kind of “thought experiment” in what God might say if there was one..
3. Quite right; that is what the discredited Logical Positivists tried to assert.
But if you are seeking good explanations for phenomena, you can’t just assume anything you want about what exists; you have to provide evidence. The “God-model” which presumably you support, is not a good explanation for anything. If we can’t see things with our naked eyes, we build telescopes etc, and use the data from them to either support our explanatory model,-or not, as the case may be.
See the hunt for the Higgs boson at the Large Hadron Collider, as an example.
4, Why don’t you just google “atheist”, if you want a definition. I will assist: “atheist means “a theos” (Greek), meaning no god, without god, godless. It does not specify whether there is an afterlife, but as afterlife implies Heaven/Hell/God/ reincarnation,-atheists tend not to believe in those either. You ask “is this all there is?”
Look at the world, look up into the sky, look through a telescope and microscope; you want more? Maybe angelic cabarets and eternal free lunches in Heaven?
5. Obviously, as an atheist (godless,-remember?),-I do not think God is anything that exists, the word is therefore an unnecessary label for a false concept.
Remember also that my deconstruction of Pascal’s Wager was a thought game. There is no God to actually play this game with.
You say,
“At the core of much of the religious teachings is that people should treat one another in and fair and just manner and not take advantage of others by force, etc. Any decent person would agree 100% with this wouldn’t they?”
Of course, this is basic Humanism. Religious people can also be humanists, but quite often their enthusaism for God overides their Humanism, and they start killing people, eg 9/11, witches, heretic, genocide etc etc etc.
s
You say,
“As for abuse this isn’t justified in any religion that I know of”.
Of course not, they don’t call it “abuse”, and so, to them, it isn’t. But normal people would call it child abuse, murder, indoctrination and attacking progress.
Response: The Quran, OT and NT all justify slaughtering the unbelievers, or heretics, or anyone who merely disagrees with them. “It is written”; try googling it yourself.
To answer your earlier question: I send some “seasonal” cards out to friends as the Winter festival draws nigh.
There are plenty of “Humanist” card options that do not have a religious theme. I use those.
Report abuse
Re number 153 Leif R “These facts are ridiculous, as is the link and there is no point in entering into debate if people resort to fantasy to support their views. Very silly if not just plain sad.”
I wasn’t sure whether it was true, but have contacted my daughters Primary School and to my horror it IS TRUE. Every two weeks a team of god loving brain washers under the ‘Open the Book’ banner visit the school and re-enact bible stories to our children. During school time. And seems that as it is during the school day, it is classed as part of the cirriculum.
Yes, this sort of indoctrination is happening to our children here in Jersey. It is true. Here is the link: http://www.openthebook.net/home.php And as a parent i was completely unwaware. Thank you PK (152) for bringing it to our attention.
School teachers teaching religion in a balanced and unbaised way (hopefully) is one thing. But inviting outsiders in to do this is a disgrace.
Report abuse
Well we have not been ‘fortunate’ enough to received one of these little units of propaganda, so where have they all gone – straight to the new incinerator?
Report abuse
172.
Perhaps they have recalled them, if they have any sense. Foot in mouth job I think.
Report abuse