Stand up to violence and earn our respect
Wednesday 28th September 2011, 3:00PM BST.
From Paul de Gruchy.
LAST week my six year old daughter returned from school with a letter telling parents that one of the form teachers for her year would be absent for some time.
Her son, it transpired, had suffered a serious head injury following an alleged assault in St Clement and was being treated in the UK.
A few days later a visiting businessman had his jaw broken in an apparently unprovoked attack while returning to the Radisson.
The brother of one of my work colleagues had a successful career as a lawyer in Jersey. Until he was left unconscious with life-altering injuries following an unprovoked attack in the Royal Square.
He subsequently left the Island. It didn’t come as a surprise to his employers – he was the second professional to leave that year for the same reason. Turns out talented individuals with portable skills don’t like being kicked in the head by drunks.
Last month the JEP published a critical editorial following what appeared to be an exceptionally lenient sentence following a particularly nasty assault. Today it reports (JEP, 26 September) that: ‘A gang of four who attacked two men in separate incidents just minutes apart narrowly avoided being sent to prison.’ Narrowly, presumably, in the sense that two unprovoked street attacks is below the current sentencing threshold?
Most of us know or know of people whose lives have been destroyed by unprovoked violence. As a community are we willing to accept this as a fact of life?
If nothing is done, this trend in random violence and youth crime will invariably escalate into knife attacks, as has been the pattern in the UK.
For too long the judiciary have developed sentencing policies that fail the Island while politicians look away. The first duty of a government is to protect its people from violence. If State members wish to earn the respect of the public they should start by fulfilling that duty.
In the middle of an election, is there one candidate for whom making Jersey a safer place is a priority? Is the challenge of keeping safe the streets of an Island as small as Jersey really too great? Or are our politicians now so utterly lacking in conviction that such a hope is itself regarded as fanciful?
Travel
To, from and around the Island
Airport Arrivals/Departures
Harbours Arrivals/Departures
Bus Information/Timetables
JOIN US ON...
Facebook and Twitter
Follow us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
Got a story? Get in touch
KIT 4 CLUBS
Win a share of £10,000
2012 is the year of the London Olympics and to celebrate this great event the Jersey Evening Post, in association with sponsors Ogier is giving all sporting clubs a chance to win a share of £10,000.
This is Jersey
Jersey Evening Post
Useful links
There would appear to be some confusion here between “state” (sic) members and the judiciary.
The author writes of the judiciary setting sentencing guidelines (no doubt assisted by the attorney) but then goes wrong by suggesting that State (sic) members should assume that duty.
It is to be hoped that we do not arrive at a time when politicians interfere with the workings of the judicial process, although the author would appear to think otherwise.
Perhaps the correspondence would have been better directed to the Bailiff’s office or to the committee of the Royal Court which reviews sentencing policy from time to time.
Report abuse
Paul the problem is that the States do not want to portray Jersey in a bad light, you would be surprised at the violent crimes that do not get reported. They bury their heads in the sand instead of getting tough.
When the new chief started over at the Police Station it was reported Jersey was a safe place and i commented to a letter the chief published in the JEP asking him to walk around town at night in his civilian clothes and see for himself what happens, since then nothings changed.
Over the last few months there have been some serious crimes of violence including a 5 year old boy been attacked just outside town….this has gone quiet and no one talks about it…its buried and forgotten until such time something happens that can not avoid the national news. Then we get the CM stating Jersey is a safe place. TELL THAT TO THE MANY VICTIMS.
Now i know the UK is worse than Jersey but lets not forget we live on a island with only 90k to 100k people and the majority are hard working, fun loving people. Lets start making examples of those that choose to make other lives hell and if they are not locally qualified….send them home to where they came from or give them a sentence long engough to make them think twice.
Report abuse
Fortunately Jersey is a very safe place. However, instances of violent or anti-social behaviour should not be tolerated and should be dealt with quickly and appropriately.
Society operates best in an environment of good domestic order. Mutual respect for each other and responsibility for our own actions are essential to maintaining and protecting our peaceful and respectable way of life.
The size of our States Assembly should be reduced by about a fifth. I also believe that of the three categories of States Member, Deputy, Constable and Senator, the office of Senator is, by virtue of its island wide mandate, certainly the most representative and therefore the most democratic and accountable and should be retained.
Report abuse
Nimby,
I am an advocate of the Royal Court so no confusion here. We elect the States, we do not elect the judiciary. In a democracy it is the job of the executive to ensure that the judiciary follows the sentencing policies that the public want and expect.
The States should set clear guidelines as they are the ONLY ones who are accountable. If the States amended the laws so, for example, it was clear that for a second offence of violence a minimum sentence of 5 years was required the courts would have to follow. Or they could introduce a new system of dealing with young offenders, or take benefits away from anti-social families. This is no more “interfering with the judicial process” than passing any laws which create offences.
Don’t be so negative – Jersey is a small island and there is no reason why the will of the people should not be respected.
Report abuse
(1) and (3) – about your names.
I opposed airsofting when the application was made in 2008 because I had no information in relation to the matter other than a notice saying the field next to my house was to be used for war games and wanted to understand more about it before it was permitted but the planning process dos not work like that.
During the time airsofting has happened near to my house it appears from what I have seen and heard to have been carried out in a responsible manner and so when the permit as reapplied for last year I did not oppose it.
And I have no doubt that activities like airsofting probably do have an important role to play in teaching young men about responsibility, teamwork and how to control aggression. So there!
Report abuse
To Mark G (comment 2) I agree with your post and although I do not have access to all Jersey news as I now live in the UK I too have been puzzled at hearing no more about the 5 year old who was attacked outside his home as this appeared to be a serious crime yet I have been unable to gain any further information about it.I would disagree with your statement however about the UK being “worse than Jersey”. I feel sure you probably meant “parts of the UK”.I live in a village which is about 20 minutes from a city and the crime rate is extremely low.Very minor incidents make front page news I assure you! I also agree with the writer of this letter as he makes some valid points.Finally in view of recent tragic events in Jersey I was rather surprised to see that a man who attacked his wife by attempting to throttle her and who then also produced a knife has been give community service and a fine according to a brief story on the online JEP tonight.
Report abuse
Good point, Paul (4).
What you meant to say, therefore, was that the States should be setting mandatory minimum sentences. That would effectively tie the hands of the court and would prevent overly lenient sentencing.
That of course, is somewhat different from the practice of the judiciary in setting sentencing guidelines as your kind letter suggested.
Sometimes legislation of the type which you would advocate (excuse the pun) can make for good practice, sometimes not because the discretion of the court to do justice in an individual case is inevitably fettered.
Such an undertaking also brings the risk of politicians seeking political capital from tampering with the criminal justice system. That much, as well as being plainly obvious, is also evident from the content and indeed the timing of your letter.
You will, also, as a “learned friend” be aware of the recent powers which have been bestowed upon the Attorney, which powers allow the prosecution to appeal against an overly lenient sentence. Although a cumbersome and time consuming process, this is nonetheless something which a sentencing court will have to bear in mind when considering whether a particular sentence is likely to be subsequently upheld.
The bottom line is this. The Royal Court has periodically stated that it will not tolerate violence on the streets of St Helier. It has also stated that such offences are likely to be visited by a custodial sentence in the absence of some exceptional mitigating factor.
It follows, therefore, as has been said above, that your correspondence might have been better directed to the Royal Court or, possibly, the Attorney General. The mechanism which you seek is already in place and perhaps the appropriate avenue should be explored before the spectre of cheap political manoevering is allowed to muddy the waters.
Let’s be honest, though, the streets of St Helier are perhaps safer than most places, so let us not get things too out of perspective, please.
Report abuse
Just how safe is Jersey?
We are an island of just 90-100k people. That’s akin to an average size town in England.
We keep convincing ourselves that England is a far more violent place, but we are making those comparisons with inner cities. We don’t have inner cities in Jersey, we are just a town.
Therefore, the kind of mindless violence we are talking about in Jersey, is very much on a par with England.
Report abuse
Well said Mr de Gruchy, I totally agree with you and I’m sure that many other people do too.
Report abuse
Hi Julie (6)
I should have stated parts of the UK and i respect that not all areas of the UK are bad.
Report abuse
4: “I am an advocate of the Royal Court so no confusion here. We elect the States, we do not elect the judiciary.”.
Well, yes and no. Don’t forget (as an Advocate of the Royal Court) that it is not the judge who passes sentence, it is the Jurats. Then think about how the Jurats get onto the bench. “We” elect them! Yes, really! The “we” is not the Royal “we”, rather it is an electoral college consisting of the States members, ecrivain and, wait for it, the Advocates!. So “we” do elect the sentencing judiciary. Any member of the electoral college (including an advocate) should get down to the relevant elections. Those who don’t vote should not be heard to complain.
Report abuse
Paul,
There was an article on ‘This is Jersey’ from 8th September, an article that sums up the pathetic society we now live in
It was about our truly wonderful prison governor, Bill Millar. He was so pleased with himself because only 25% of early released prisoners re-offended. It’s those Liberal attitudes that fuel lack of discipline.
We have serious problems in Jersey, these crimes are vicious, and for an island of only 90,000 people they are far too prevalent. I laugh when I read various comments that it’s better than England…really? Do you honestly believe that everywhere in England has more serious crime than Jersey?
Wake up people!
Report abuse
It was an oddly lenient sentence. I suppose the writer of the letter is an experienced criminal litigator and that he must have been in court on that day so that he will have heard the case. Perhaps he even also retired with the court and heard its deliberations. An informed view can really only arise from full information and observation so perhaps we can rest assured on that.
Report abuse
The kind of violence which Paul speaks of is quite unacceptable. One has to ask, though, whether the point would have been raised had a roadsweeper been attacked. There is nothing more apt to rile the daily mail brigade than the emotive subject of a teacher [particularly when the sad news is conveyed via one's children from school (Max Clifford, eat your heart out!)] or any other professional falling foul of the yobs. A previously extant problem then becomes starkly visible to those who otherwise may not have perceived it.
Report abuse
Someone above said:
We keep convincing ourselves that England is a far more violent place, but we are making those comparisons with inner cities. We don’t have inner cities in Jersey, we are just a town.
True enough. But, these days, we don’t know who is coming over here or where they are coming from. There was a time, not that long ago, when undeisrables were kept out of Jersey. Nowadays, the liberals have created an open door so we don’t know who is walking the streets, what they might be capable of and what criminal connections they may have. That is why we need an immigration policy.
Report abuse
to 2
No, not a criminal litigator, never did any criminal work in my life. I have no idea what the deliberations were.
What I do know is that violent crime is prevalent, that it has recently directly affected a number of people that I have daily dealings with, and that neither the States nor the judiciary seem to regard it as a priority. That is the part I don’t understand.
In 10 years time my kids will want to go to St Helier at weekends. All I want is to reduce the chance of them ending up in hospital. I don’t see what is controversial in that aim.
Report abuse
I went for a meal with my husband last weekend, and I must admit, we felt less safe than in previous years.There’s a slightly menacing atmosphere in Jersey these days.
We were approached by some youths at Snow Hill, they wanted us to get them some booze. We refused, and were then given a stream of abuse and ‘f words’. When we were reaching Chambers there were 2 Polish guys squaring up to each other, clearly drunk, but looking rather aggressive with it.
We were glad to get in our car and go home.
It’s such a shame, almost heartbreaking in fact, to see our beautiful island becoming such an unpleasant place
Report abuse
Legalise cannabis. Not only will those people who feel the need to get out of their heads be stoned rather than drunk, but the whole criminal underclass is funded by drug sales.
Drugs are the oxygen of the criminal classes. Take them away and watch violent crime, benefit fraud, low level unpleasantness and the number of thugs hanging around drop instantly.
It won’t solve the problem with violence, but it will reduce it significantly.
Report abuse
To Jane (comment 15)You say there was a time when undesirables were kept out of Jersey and up to a point I agree with you but sadly Jersey has always had its fair share of “home grown” undesirables.Being Jersey born and having lived there until recent times I can recall several instances of serious assaults and murders on the island where the perpetrator was indeed Jersey born.
Report abuse
“earn our respect?”
I think they are happy pocketing £40k and laughing at us. They don’t actually know the meaning of the word “earn”
Report abuse
Thank you, Paul for your frank admission at 16.
I am in broad agreement with the sentiment expressed in your letter.
The realities of day to day criminal litigation are somewhat different to the theory, however.
Much of the court process depends to a very great extent on the entering of guilty pleas. This will, very often, occur by way of an effective plea bargain.
One of the problems with stringent, statutorily prescribed minimum sentences as suggested within your letter is that defendants will be discouraged from pleading guilty because they will know that there will be no possibilty of a discount for “going guilty”.
The advice in a situation where a stiff sentence has been prescribed by law would be a “no comment” interview, a not guilty plea and the defence putting the prosecution to proof on every single issue and taking every technical procudural point. There would be no possibilty of prosecution and defence working together as often occurs now and no possibility of their producing a schedule of admitted material.
The danger of all of this has been amply set out above. Politicans with one eye on popularity will tamper with the criminal justice system and will then complain when the courts inevitably become clogged with jury (assise) trials. Some defendants will, of course, be acquitted, whether on a substantive basis or on a “technicality”.
The answer would seem to lie (once again) with the courts. Any advocate who is genuinely concerned could, as an officer of the court, take the matter up with the Bailiff. Do you propose to do that?
If the matter is to be dealt with on a political level, it would arguably be better to tackle the root cause (one of which is lax licencing laws) rather than to try to suppress one of the concomitant symptoms of that cause.
The proposals suggested in your letter are, in reality, a pernicious short cut which will appease a certain type of person. The proposals will doubtless also be attractive to a corresponding certain type of politician.
Report abuse
#17 Jean
Interesting events, but also sad. Unfortuneatly, I think many of us can relate to your experience
I think we have some serious issues here, there’s a great deal of animosity bubbling under the surface. I have no problems at all with our Polish community, but many do. I shared a drink last Friday with some very mild mannered, middle-aged Jersey born folk. They got onto the subject of Poles, and their comments wouldn’t be repeatable here.
I agree with Jean, there’s a menacing atmosphere here and it’s growing fast. People resent outsiders during difficult economic times. I’m sorry to sound confrontational, but these things have to be said.
The saddest aspect of this though, is that things won’t change. They won’t change because the States are either ignorant or incompetent. They simply refuse to discuss these issues, or even accept they are a problem
Report abuse
2. makes a valid point Paul. You have cited one example of an apparently lenient sentence but presumably you have no knowledge of the circumstances of the case and cannot therefore comment on whether it was lenient or not?
In my experience the judiciary does a very good job applying sentencing policies that reflect society’s expectations. You only have to look at the sentencing judgments on http://www.jerseylaw.je to see that in most cases violence on the streets will be met with a custodial sentence.
The problem is not the punishment. The problem is working out why we have these reprobates in the first place and how do we stop their numbers increasing?
Report abuse
The problem is the easy availability of drink.
Why does every open all hours Spar shop have nearly 50% of it’s stock as drink in various guises?
There should be a reduction in the hours shops can sell drink and also a reduction in the number of premises allowed to do so.
Our glorious leaders don’t want to do this as they want the tax revenue and grovelling to Spar/Sandpiper etc. Despite the drink fueled problems caused to law abiding people in St Helier, especially people who live in noisy areas.
Report abuse
Paul excellent letter and follow up responses. Whilst it’s true that Jersey is statistically safer than the UK there are far too many incidents of violence taking place, frankly one is too many. We occupy a unique position, we are a self governed island, we make our own laws, why don’t we have an ultra tough approach to this type of behaviour. 1st offence a jail term of not less than 5 years ( and I mean you serve years, not 3 ) 2nd offence life sentance, no excuses, no bullsh*t.
It’s true that incidents of this type are not widely reported and even when they are as in the case of the young boy assaulted near Grand Vaux there is no follow up report. The electorate if questioned would overwhelming support a no nonsense approach, why then does no one have the balls to propose it, they would get my vote.
Report abuse
I suspect that a contributory factor for the perceived escalation in violence is the increasing number of violent DVDs and electronic games, which is likely to normalise this sort of behaviour. The heroes and villains depicted present bad role models.
In response to Donald Pond, some years ago the Institute of Psychiatry in London, reported that cannabis users had a history of conduct disorders as adolescents. There was evidence that often violence was associated with their involvement in the drug market.
It was stated there was also a three-fold risk increase associated with men suffering from schizophrenia or dependent on alcohol.
Of the total sample, 40% had mental disorders and were five times more likely to be violent than people without mental conditions.
The Institute disclosed a substantial minority of young adults with specific mental disorders who are responsible for a substantial proportion of violence in the community.
People with at least one of the disorders constituted a fifth of the sample, but accounted for more than half the convictions for violence.
There was empirical evidence showing that those with two of these disorders have an increased risk for violence eight to 18 times greater than that for people with no disorders. However not all mentally-ill individuals engage in violence. The link is limited to three groups – those dependent on alcohol, those dependent on cannabis, and adults with schizophrenia.
Legalisation of drugs is not the answer. What is needed is a greater police presence on the streets to deter violent behaviour.
Report abuse
I for one feel if non-locals cause crime, bloody deport them, let their Country take on the expense to lock them up, not us!
Their immediate family can go with them too, so they get the support from the rest of their family they left in their Country!!!!! (if not already over here, claiming too).
Locals that do the Crime must do the Time, no matter what!
We are too soft on Laws, these Laws have to change with our modern day times!!!! They are so out dated, it is laughable~!
Non-locals meaning those not born here, and those who feel they can come over here and claim all sorts!
Then perhaps we will have cash to support our own!
Sorry really feeling unsafe in MY Jersey!
Please Powers That Be, Help Save Us, form thugs and wayward kids, change our Laws. Before someone takes the Law in their own hands, like so many feel like doing! (and before a good life is ruined!)
Report abuse
“The proposals suggested in your letter are, in reality, a pernicious short cut which will appease a certain type of person.”
Yes, expecting the States to have policies to keep the streets safe. What are you thinking of? Leave it to the Bailiff and the legal aid gravy chain, they know what they are doing!
Report abuse
“There would be no possibilty of prosecution and defence working together”
Prosecution: “Your client biffed up someone and left him brain damaged”
Defence: “Prove it.”
Prosecution: “Oh no, that’s too much to ask! Tell you what, if he pleads guilty we’ll give him 3 months probation and he can tidy gardens on Saturday afternoons for a while.”
Defence: “OK”
Victim (from back of court): [muffled cries through layers of bandages, spits in indignation into the tube he is now fed through]
Criminal: “Yes!” [gives v sign to victim and makes threatening gesture to victim's family]
Prosecution and Defence with Bailiff and Jurats (together, in the manner of Sir Brucie): “Didn’t we do well?”
Report abuse
The bigger problem with the states imposing minimum sentences for this type of offence is that they will not adequately account for the circumstances. for example, to impose a minimum custodial sentence for grave and criminal assault would mean that someone who acts after significant provocation with an otherwise clean record and good job, family etc. would also face custody for the offence when it would be clearly inappropriate and of no benefit to society.
Report abuse
Huw (26)
I don’t want to go on about the benefits of legalising drugs. However, you seem to have made an assumption that legalising something is the same as either approving of it, deciding it is safe, or encouraging its use.
Before heroin was made illegal in the 1960s, there were an estimated 200 addicts in the UK, almost all living in Soho, who were prescribed the drug by doctors. This figure hadbeen stable since the end of WW2. As soon as it was made illegal market forces came into play and those selling the drug had a motivation to increase its usage, which they did.
In other words, unless you believe that the government would market illegal drugs more effectively and less responsibly than drug dealers, there is every reason to believe that legalising drugs would diminish their use.
To tie it back to this letter. We could empty La Moye of drug mules who are as much victims as they are criminals and instead of sentencing such mules to 7 years in prison bank up those who attack others in the street. And in addition pocket probably £50m+ a year to spend on educating kids not to start drugs in the first place.
Report abuse
I have stopped phoning the police regarding my neighbours sons (13 and 15) having parties involving alcohol and (I suspect thanks to the rolled up dog ends on my lawn) drugs. Nothing they can do since they are in a private residence and I am the only complainant! Does not help my family when the noise increases, the party breaks up and spills into the street at which time a fight normally ensues, the happy partyers then either go off shouting and singing or all race down the road on their mopeds like a swarm of wasps, leaving vomit, beer cans, food wrappers etc in my garden. When I tried to intervene, the usual abuse towards me and my family.
There are many solutions to the problem however my own viewpoint is that trouble making starts at an early age and is not dealt with appropriately then it leads to the “I can get away with anything, cos I got rights”.
Bring back corporal punishment – a bit of tough love would make some of the little cherubs change their ways.
Minimum sentences (e.g 6 months for a guilty plee, 12 months if found guilty without pleading – for every offence thereafter double it)
Reduce availability of alcohol – ban alcopops and drinks that appeal to kids.
Name and shame offenders regardless of age – the parents might take notice then and people will also know who to avoid.
Recompence for the victim. Offenders should be made to foot the bill for the police time, legal costs on both sides, hospital time etc out of future earnings or parents pocket, maybe force them to sell their ipods and Xboxes.
Foreign offenders – deport them and take away quallies etc and DON’T let them back in..
Back ground checks on new ‘immigrants’ – have a visa system that must be applied for 1 month prior to arrival.
The police should be out in force during the night, I see them currently travelling in packs of three in king and queen street during the day but at night? No where to be seen.
If a licensee sells alcohol to an underage person take away their licence to trade, if a shop or retail outlet take away their alcohol licence and fine them, if a pub fine the brewery ban the licensee and close the pub for a week.
Report abuse
This is just another genus of “hang ‘em and flog ‘em”, with the added emotive aspect of one’s children thrown into the mix.
It’s all very well writing reactionary letters while not in full possession of the facts (the writer admits this; he wasn’t even there!), but, as is so often the case, it’s one thing to posture and quite another to get off one’s arse and do something about it.
Report abuse
Well, look on the bright side. The letter might be a bit anecdotal, misinformed and altogether “Daily Mail” but at least it’s got us discussing the problem. That has to be a good thing so good one, Paul.
Report abuse
“it’s one thing to posture and quite another to get off one’s arse and do something about it.”
If you reread the letter you will see I was asking why, in the midst of an election, none of our politicians, having got off their “arses” to try to come up with ideas to solve the problem.
So as you ask, here would be my suggestions:
1) Police going into schools with graphic pictures of the injuries suffered by victims of violence so impressionable young people can see the effects of violence;
2) Naming anyone who commits an offence of violence, regardless of their age: in fact, I would go so far as to make them parade through King Sreet with a sandwich board explaining what they have done;
3) A system of reducing benefits for parents who fail to take responsibility for their children (e.g. in the circumstances set out by Vote Quint above);
4) Allow (and indeed make it standard practice) for the court to punish violent offenders by ordering that 10% of their salary for the 10 years after they leave prison should be paid to their victim;
5) Penalising properly shops, pubs and clubs who provide alcohol to those under age (more than one offence in a year = licence lost);
6) Zero tolerance of all criminal activity;
7) For anybody who has committed 3 criminal offences of any type before the age of 18, an intensive course designed to give them some self-esteem and control over their lives. Equivalent to rehab for junkies.
OK, some may not be workable, but at least it is something. Something better than sly digs at being “reactionary”. If you define “reactionary” as being opposed to “progressive” and “liberal”, can you please explain what is so progressive and liberal about allowing thugs to beat up law abiding people with impunity?
Or are you now so lacking in moral values that you believe tolerating violence is somehow a liberal value?
Report abuse
Donald # 31. Forgive me, but I imagine that the majority of people would think that legalsing drugs would tantamount to approving their use.
I don’t follow the logic that there are more addicts now than in the 60s that is attributable to it being outlawed. What about the greater availability due to increased production and because of easier transportation and ways to smuggle contraband around the globe? There must be other contributory factors involved.
Unfortunately the police and customs aren’t very efficient at stopping drugs getting into the island. There all sorts on inlets and coves those boats can get into during the hours of darkness, without being detected. Because it is so labour intensive and sometimes uncomfortable to monitor these locations, the law enforcement agencies rarely keep an eye on these remote areas around the island.
To get back to the original letter, I believe that we need to see more police on the streets and get back to basics. Only the other day the J.E.P. reported that a new police unit – consisting of some 50 members of staff – had been formed to look after prisoners, witnesses and victims. I am not sure the island can afford to have so many specialist officers; what is needed is more officers who can perform a wider number of basic policing tasks out on our streets. It is only a robust police presence that will help reduce violent crimes in Jersey.
Report abuse
32 Vote Quint – I’m surprised plod dont attend a noise complaint. We had a party at my house to celebrate a wedding, very civilised mature adults and genuinely not noisy but a neighbour called the police at 10pm and they came and told us to turn the music down.
I agree with all of your suggestions and I think the majority do so why are they not implemented
As for 33 & 34, any violent assault should be dealt with severely and carry a custodial sentance if proved guilty. Personally I’d save the taxpayer a fortune and put a bullet in em. Scum like these don’t have the intellectual capacity to learn much less change.
Report abuse
There are always some people who are prepared to carry out unprovoked assaults no matter how severe the punishments. Therefore I would argue that the sentencing policy does not make any difference to the safety of any individual walking along the street. Also, it is not realistic to rely on the Police to be able to get to you on time to prevent an assailant from causing serious injury. People, you need to learn serious self-defense skills; it can be done. Personally, I am not prepared to curl up into a ball and let some idiot play football with my head in the hope that he might get a long prison sentence. No, I would respond with MAXIMUM force. It is better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. Stand up to violence yourselves, and earn your own SELF-RESPECT…
Report abuse
Quote from original letter, “In the middle of an election, is there one candidate for whom making Jersey a safer place is a priority? Is the challenge of keeping safe the streets of an Island as small as Jersey really too great? Or are our politicians now so utterly lacking in conviction that such a hope is itself regarded as fanciful?”
This is a large matter. How would they sort it? The person who wrote the letter says that he has no knowledge of criminal justice. So what does that leave?
Would the knight in shining armour politician do any of the following:
1. More police? Assaults can’t happen if police are there.
2. More cameras? More police who want to study the images?
3. Less alcohol? Closing of pubs in town?
4. Less immigration? Someone above said that locals can be as bad (yawn, didn’t see that one coming) but at least we used to know who the local nutters are. Now it could be anyone from england, eastern europe or elsewhere.
5. Ian Le Marquand has responsibility for policing and public order. Did the writer write to him? No, don’t worry, he must have read the JEP letter and all of these comments. Perhaps he will give us all an answer (don’t hold your breath).
6. Sorry to sound cynical, but even if the one candidate does pledge to sort it all out he will probably get blocked by everyone else.
Report abuse
Great letter Paul. I stopped going into town of an evening in my late teens early twenties (twenty years ago) because of the risk of being assaulted in an unprovoked attack – it happened regularly to me and my friends. So I only venture in very occasionally now (eg for quick after-work drinks or work functions in town). After our 2010 X-mas work function I had the misfortune of having to walk up Hill Street past drunks, vomit, tottering and wasted teenage girls wearing next to nothing causing taxis to swerve out of their way and menacing groups of young lads looking for a “shoulder barge-then-are-you0looking-at-me-pal” opportunity. In short, even worse than I remember it in the late 80s. Now I’m sure I’m just an old fart, it’s just “kids having it large” and that this all takes place in most UK provincial towns, but can’t we make Jersey just a little bit better than this? Why should I feel unsafe at night walking through the capital of the Island I was born in? Perhaps that’s why a very high proportion of the many fantastic restaurants we’re lucky to have in such a small Island (as recently noted in the JEP) are based out of town. A real shame. St Helier could be so much more vibrant if it was less violent. I hope some of the election candidates do take note of Paul’s letter.
Report abuse
Well done Paul, what a brilliant letter!. How lucky we are to have a Jerseyman willing to put forward ideas to solve the unrelenting thuggery that has become a way of life in this beautiful Island.
I plead with everyone who cares for our once tranquil living conditions to bombard their Deputies, Constables etc. for action NOW to tackle this huge problem.
We should all be very proud to have someone like Paul in our midst, a man willing to put suggest solutions to improve the quality of life for us all.
Good on you Paul, you have got us talking about the problems – it is a start.
Report abuse
Question: Anyone who wants to move here to live, what do they have to do? re Customs/Police/Social Security/Have School acceptance letters etc….
Do they have a Doctors certificate to say they are all in good health?
Do they have to fill forms in prior to their move to disclose bank statements, so they show they have enough funds to support themselves/family? And have at least 1 year statements with them when they arrive.
And show NEW work employment contract, which comes with automatic deduction for their Medical Aid here in Jersey? shows duration and wage earned.
Have School acceptance letters for their kiddies.
After time up who makes sure they leave? is there a record of this with Police/Customs
Do they have to fill in on same forms to say what criminal records/offences committed from their Country? (if they have sorry go, put in Police Cells until next available flight back) Plus add their name onto Police list and stamp passport refused entry!
Do they too have to fill in where they will be living and prove they have a rented accommodation contact for at least a couple of years/duration of their work stay here?
Any criminal offence deport them!
If they are fired or leave said place of employment, with no proof to employer of other contact, Police/Customs should be notified immediately.
If NOT why Not???????
This does not mean that all people coming here are thugs, but at least we know who is coming here and for how long, as there are no records at this time here!
As for those living here who commit crimes name them not matter what age, and make them serve the time for their crimes!
Wish we had compulsory Army/Navy/RAF here! for all the teens not going to school and won’t/can’t get jobs, at least they give them a trade/teach them respect/how to look after themselves!!!!!
I to feel unsafe in MY Jersey !
Report abuse
What forms do newbies to Jersey have to complete to move here? Anyone out there know please tell me, as I/plenty of us don’t know!
Keep Jersey Safe, Keep Jobs for Locals. Keep Social for those already here.
Report abuse
I agree with a number of contributors to this debate. St Helier has an edge to it, which is devastating. I’m not sure if the Politicians are even aware of it, if they do, there seems a lack of urgency to remedy the problem. I was walking up Queen Street last week, where I passed some youths verbally abusing a couple of Eastern Europeans. I don’t know if it’s simply alcohol related, or whether there’s a more serious underlying problem, but I have to agree with Sandy, the resentment and animosity to Eastern European immigrants is starting to become very noticeable
Report abuse
Nobody reprimands or makes responsable these yobs who roam our streets at night, mostly drunk with no manners what so ever Old fogey alert!! when I was a teenager many years ago in Jersey never did I feel any fear at walking home late at night, of accepting a lift from a passing car. People had respect for one another, if you did wrong you were punished, and you felt shame, if your parents found out they did not try to protect you, you just got another clout from your Mum or Dad, for the shame. It is a different world today, one must not upset the youth of today, if you do try and fight back you get jumped on, we need to bring back the cat of nine tails, I knew a few hard cases in my days who were terrified of it. All bullies are really cowards.
Report abuse
#42 “If NOT why Not???????”
Ask yourself the same of someone moving from Jersey to the UK! The answer is an even bigger NO because they are treated exactly like UK locals.
Report abuse
An interesting array of solutions, although perhaps a little reactionary and “undergraduate” in nature. Brilliant in theory, of course, but a number of legal issues would preclude many of them. Perhaps, as well as bringing back hanging and flogging, we should introduce something like tarring and feathering or whatever degrading punishment we can think of. How about making them live in active sewers for a week while the daily mail is read over a “tannoy” in 1950s BBC received English?
Report abuse
“I would go so far as to make them parade through King Sreet with a sandwich board explaining what they have done”.
That is a fantastic idea. Not for offenders, but for states members nearing the end of a term.
Report abuse
There would appear to be some confusion here between “state” (sic) members and the judiciary.
The author writes of the judiciary setting sentencing guidelines (no doubt assisted by the attorney) but then goes wrong by suggesting that State (sic) members should assume that duty.
It is to be hoped that we do not arrive at a time when politicians interfere with the workings of the judicial process, although the author would appear to think otherwise.
Perhaps the correspondence would have been better directed to the Bailiff’s office or to the committee of the Royal Court which reviews sentencing policy from time to time.
It is all very well looking to politicians and to other people to solve our problems for us and that is fine to a degree. But, it is incumbent upon all of us to act responsibilty and to teach respect (as the lady at 45 says).
A lot of quite young children today are amazingly ill-mannered and this shows how deeply rooted the problem has become. Reactionary sentiments have their place in certain regimes and indeed elsewhere but there is no substitute for taking responsibilty, a lost skill it seems. An interesting point would be to know how many children within the families of those who vociferioulsy complain are using gratuitiously violent computer games intended for adult only use?
Report abuse
The States, subject to HRH, can bring about whatever legislation they choose, they could criminalise hopscotch if they so chose and set a minimum sentence for anyone found participating in it.
The same holds true for violent crime but because there are usually so many factors to consider a one size fits all approach doesn’t really work.
Nonetheless, maybe there are some minimums that can be established.
Report abuse
Could not agree more. Most of our candidates are ‘wet’, so buried in petty parochial politics they have lost the plot.
The rule of law must be upheld and seen to be upheld.
That goes for all strata of society. If you are some ‘Toff’ concerned about your career, keep out of trouble or face the consequences, that should be the first rule of all responsible adults.
Report abuse
I am sure that, for every apparently light sentence like this, there are lots of stringent ones (one this week, I saw). The gent who wrote this letter acknowleges that he wasn’t there, doesn’t know the facts and knows not a lot about criminal law stuff. Obviously more to it than meets the eye. And expecting the politicians to do something is a bit of a get out, sorry. If it really mattered that much, we would do somthing about it properly intead of moaning in the press. Don’t worry, we are all guilty of it to one extent or another. An advocate could I am sure write to the court or elsewhere as said above and it is interesting to see that the follow up comments, while responding waspishly to one or two remarks, conspicuouly sidestepped that one and others which deal with the criminal justice issues. At least we are talking about is though, so the exercise has served one perhaps unintended purpose.
Report abuse
41; what sollutions would those be because I couldn’t see any in letter
Report abuse
Good point, 51. It’s amazing how the “lower classes” (for want of a better phrase) remain invisible to those in the “middle classes” until things begin to directly affect the “middle classes”, then the ivory towers afford a good shouting platform for the inevitable moral outrage.
Although no-one has yet touched on the matter, al least one election candidate has pledged to deal with law and order on the streets. It would, naturally, be improper to identify the relevant candidates here. The timing of the letter, together with other factors, including the apparent pledge by candidates which is not mentioned or even acknowledged, does lead one to wonder if the “Telegraph rabble rousing” exercise conceals some hidden agenda.
Report abuse
Baz (53)
See 35 for suggested solutions.
Report abuse
I would love to take certain people to town on a sat night who have posted comments,
It makes me laugh they have no clue as to what happens in this island have they ever been attacked? i dont think so easy to look the other way it will get worse due to the lack of a fitting punnishment to fit the crime,
the people doing the attacts know this and laugh at the system it is a joke, you may sit in the courts but you dont have a clue god help you.
Report abuse
“For too long the judiciary have developed sentencing policies that fail the Island while politicians look away.”.
No, I don’t think so, as any look through the law reports will confirm. Rest assured that a robust sentencing policy is in place. But is that enough to make a drunken oaf think twice? Probably not. It is the root cause that needs to be tackled; by the time you talk about sentence, the damage is already done. Being polite and not “snobbish” with your fellow human beings is a good start. lead by example.
Report abuse
55; oh yes, thanx. Pity they wern’t in letter.
Report abuse
56; those who sit in the courts know more than most because they have to deal with the mess. If those who sit in the courts know nothing then according to you the person who wrote the letter can’t know anything because he is an advocate! On the contrary, I think that he does know something!
Report abuse
Rev
Fully agree that the root cause hasn’t been tackled. Which is why if you look at my earlier post on solutions the first one is going into schools and showing kids the effect of violence. But if you think we have a robust sentencing policy then I am surprised. At least monthly we read in the JEP of an assault on a stranger punished by a non-custodial sentence.
Let me be clear: I do not think there is any circumstance where an unprovoked assault on a stranger should not result in a prison sentence of such severity that it is remembered even by a young person staggered by drunkenness. If you say “is it enough to make a drunken oaf think twice” may I suggest five years in prison, walking up and down King Street every week for the first year of the sentence with a placard saying “violent scumbag” and giving 10% of your income for the 10 years of your life after release from prison actually might make even the most drunken oaf think twice.
It is not a complex point: decent members of society do not beat up others. There are no exceptions, no excuses.
The subtext of your post is that somehow the victims are to blame for being assaulted. Why? Because in your view the victim is to blame because someone has been “snobbish” to the offender in the past. Well, what a load of tosh. We are all responsible for our actions.
Look at Singapore, It punishes violent crime severely: they don’t have much of it as a result. Perhaps their policies do make drunken oafs think twice.
It is all about choices. The judiciary and States have chosen the side of the criminal. I think the ordinary person would take the side of the victim. What I find extraordinary is that virtually all politicians think the best approach is to simply wash their hands of it.
Except, I suppose, Ian Le Marquand. After his years as as a magistrate and now as Minister for Home Affairs, it is clear where his priorities lie.
Report abuse
I didn’t read the “Rev”‘s post as carrying a subtext, Paul, although it is hard to second guess what anyone is really trying to say. I imagine that he might have meant that, somehow, the problem comes from the ground up and that common courtesy and respect effected in small ways will filter through and perhaps slow down the rot which we all identify.
Your examples of punishment are extreme and perhaps slightly laughable. They do serve a purpose, however, in that they elicit discussion. Furthermore, by taking your extreme parodies, it might be possible to refine the examples into something which may be practical. I can’t see the sandwich board idea working for various reasons, nor the “income” one. The policing would be a problem, for one thing.
I am not sure what you are trying to say about Le Marquand. You seem to suggest that he is not among those who have washed their hands of the problem, yet you also seem to suggest that he is not doing his job properly. If it be the latter, then we definitely agree on that point. He of all people should be ideally placed to have some effect on the safe policing of the streets but not a lot seems to have been achieved sicne he took up office.
Unfortunately, I think that all of this is a complex problem. Social stratification, uncontrolled immigration and abuse of alcohol is each involved. The police seem to have written off St Helier. “Our” politicians don’t see any of it because those that have real influence never really encounter what you describe, while those that don’t have the same clout may empathise with you but perhaps know that their voice will be lost in the wilderness.
Do take a look at some of the sentencing reports when you have a moment.
Report abuse
Very recent case; Royal Court said this:
” But the Court has repeatedly said that violent attacks of this nature merit a prison sentence. We have carefully considered the matter but we do not think a prison sentence can be avoided in this case given the nature of the assault and given the previous record. What we do think is that we can reflect the mitigation, particularly the good work you have been doing recently, by reducing the conclusions which we think were a little high.
The sentence of the Court is one of 18 months’ imprisonment and we make an Exclusion Order for 12 months after your release. “
Report abuse
Get fit and do a bit of boxing or martials!
Report abuse
Having read the huge responses to the apparently very serious ‘violence problems’, in Jersey, I am so encouraged to read the various contributions of your Advocate Paul de Gruchy.
As for so many of the other ‘very negative’ comments, to my mind, it is you who represent what could be called ‘the present day Jersey Problem.Quite simply, ‘criminals, drunks, and work laxy thugs, cannot be allowed to make a safe society impossible, for yes, decent people. The solution, surely obvious, ‘tough justice’ BEST WISHES.
.
Report abuse
Violent kids have no fear so the do what they want. They are not scared or intimidated and they know nodoy can really do anything.
I remembr I was in Macdonalds one Friday night and abou 7 or 8 drunk teenagers were abusing the staff. When the staff asked to leave, the response they got was “what are you going to do, you can’t touch me”.
Some people just need a good kicking. Would probably teach them a lot. I am not saying this is the right solution but some people will just continue to live on putting fear into others until they experience it themselves.
Report abuse
Paul de Gruchy – I ‘ve rarely seen so much sense come from one guy. You need to go into politics and become the Home Affairs Minister beacuse the current incumbent has made a pigs ear of things.
More robust policing and better sentencing in the courts is what is needed.
Report abuse
64; It is apparently very serious, but only because the paper reports light sentences from time to time. It is perhaps no worse than anywhere else; slightly better I would say. We can, however, put a mark in the sand now though before it gets any worse Perhaps the writer of the letter, together with other like minded people, might like to form some sort of pressure grop or consultative panel. The suggestion that he write to the court and express the concerns would not appear to have found favour so, one would hope, other practical steps might be followed. Active involvement is what is needed, particularly if you profess to feel the problem as acutely as does this particular gentleman. I am sure that we can all help if necessary.
Report abuse
K @65 “remembr I was in Macdonalds one Friday night and abou 7 or 8 drunk teenagers were abusing the staff. When the staff asked to leave, the response they got was “what are you going to do, you can’t touch me”.” .
Were the teenagers holding them hostage or something? Why did the staff have to ask permission to go home?
Report abuse
This is an excellent letter. One question remains, would he pull the lever?
Report abuse
I think that “king henry” no.54 has seen something thought the spinning smoke screen.
good points.
Report abuse
The problem with blunt instrument laws is that the person who was attacked can end up on the wrong side of it, like that Tony Martin bloke in England.
If you’re a bit handy, you might give an assailant more than he bargained for and you might in fact throw the first punch if he comes at you. A martial artist of only intermediate skill might not have learnt to temper skills and might come on a bit strong. The assailant will then go running to plod.
We mustn’t make the victims the criminal and that’s where this all might lead. It needs thinking though a bit more, really.
The eton mentality is to do nothing with your arms by your side and then go to the police aftewards. It’s not as simple as that, particularly for those of us who might have a go back.
I do wish that the police were around in town a bit more, though (Blue Knight has the right idea there). They used to be there in numbers only 15 or so years ago so what on earth has happened?
Report abuse
immigration controls please
Report abuse
“We have serious problems in Jersey, these crimes are vicious, and for an island of only 90,000 people they are far too prevalent.”
To be more realistic about the extent of the problem one needs to consider the bulk of violent crime takes place in St. Helier, where the population is nearer 30,000, and in an area probably less than a mile and a half square.
Report abuse
70; an old trick is to do a spot of rabble rousing at election time, usually from some cloister or other. It’s a ploy that was used in europe at various times during the twentieth century. There’s plenty that someone who is really concerned could do, particularly if a member of a learned profession which is allied to crinal justice. Writing to the paper is well down on the list so it does rather look as though there is more to this than meets the eye.
Report abuse
The alleged assault that Paul mentions happened in St Clement so it has little to do with St Helier in the given case anyway.
Report abuse
73, yes, but that is artificial because St Helier is not typocal; booze flows like running water, licencing laws are lax and the police are few and far between. It is an unusual mile and a half as far as that goes.
Report abuse
Jersey’s relationship with excessive levels of alcohol is not new. Those of us who are old enough to remember the 80′s, will recall lots of drunken people then too. The difference today being that life in general has become far more violent.
I think there’s too many people living here, this causes friction and confrontation, especially when there’s a blame culture directed at immigrants.
I say that because I wanted to pick on a couple of previous references to Eastern Europeans. I’m not easily shocked, but just lately I have been extremely shocked by my circle of friends and work colleagues. The vitriol directed at Polish residents is becoming quite unsettling. People are in denial if they think this isn’t spreading, this causes hatred amongst people and alcohol brings unpleasant traits to the surface
Report abuse
Hi Rev Smallwood @57,
OMG !
I think that Mr. de Grucy @60 has approached your comment @57 with a degree of paranoia -perhaps the dog collar scared him.
I imagine that you would agree that deterrence has a role to play in this (though not necessarily as extreme as some of the statements on this thread)
I imagine that the “root causes” you were referring to were issues such as :
-parenting (difficult when even renting generally requires two incomes, even if on more than minimum wage)
-Alcohol and substance abuse
-the stratification of society (and even the vileness of the level of mismatch in earnings which might be justifiable at a factor of 5 or 10, but if approaching 100 or more, must be totally unrelated to the relative capabilities of the individuals)
-the closed shop nature of many of the opportunities in the community (diverging from opportunities in education and connection)
-lack of self respect (and hence respect for others)
-Mental health issues (made worse by drugs + alcohol)
-Electoral disenfranchisement
-general disfunction and disrespect within our “Big Society” of which “snobbishness” is just one aspect.
Separate society into it’s ‘tribes’ (racial, social, economic) add some resentment and conflict is likely; particularly given the other social/governmental failings.
These are NOT EXCUSES, they are REASONS which IMHO we would be stupid to discount or ignore.
As said by the good Reverend ‘Being polite and not “snobbish” with your fellow human beings IS a good start’.
Snobbery probably contributes to some of our society’s other failings even more than it’s contribution to resentment and probable relatively small contribution to sparking violence
It has been mooted that Business, politics, medicine and the police etc. can be infiltrated by psychopaths -so they are not only on our streets.
On a lighter note, a comment that amused me was “To argue with a drunk is to disrespect a man who is not even there” so the martial law and big prisons that many on here are advocating is more of a treatment of the symptom rather than of the underling diseases.
Underlying diseases require time to fix – and fixing is a black art made extra challenging by portions of the population being transient, on an island made overpopulated ad strained by the greed of parts of business and it’s pet politicians
It would be nice if there were a short sharp and cheap alternative to prison – any ideas ? (other than the bullet suggested by MLP @37 !)
If we do go down the “big prison” route, then perhaps we could use a nearby island – Guernsey perhaps
(oops -hope that was not snobbish or impolite)
Report abuse
The odd thing is, a lot of the folk who moralise are engaged in the tax avoidance industry so they haven’t really got the high ground anyway. If they wanted to help, they would do so instead of remaining within their remote towers.
Report abuse
too many pompous asses who only notice their “lessers” when things start to creep into the middle class goldfish bowl
Report abuse
“a lot of the folk who moralise are engaged in the tax avoidance industry”
Much of the finance industry concerns investment funds, where there is no tax avoidance angle, and providing services to middle-eastern clients, who pay no tax anyway. I’m afraid the idea that taxpayers shouldn’t be allowed to stand up against street violence on the grounds that you are wilfully ignorant of what such taxpayers actually do isn’t a very cogent argument.
“too many pompous asses who only notice their “lessers” when things start to creep into the middle class goldfish bowl”
Yes, you expect people to care about the issues that affect them. If you are “lower-class” and have been plagued by this for years why haven’t you complained about it? After all, this is just one barely researched letter to the JEP. It can’t have taken more than an hour’s work.
Are you saying that the entire working class in Jersey are actually too useless to manage even that?
Go back to basics: is there a problem with violence? If there is, what can be done about it?
Report abuse
How about a bit of hard graft for all offenders, instead of being kept up at la moye, get them out under the eyes of the TA (suitably armed and told they can shoot
), maybe digging the cliff paths, painting walls of graffiti etc, sweeping roads and breaking rocks.
I am sure some liberal will bleat about human rights but where are the victims rights?
Cheap labour.. may even save us a bob or two in taxes to our 6 men around a hole TTS.
Report abuse
I blame Chaucer. If it hadn’t been for the Miller, we would not have the bawdy behaviour and public order problems that we now have.
Report abuse
81; “After all, this is just one barely researched letter to the JEP. ” I agree. The writer admitted that he had no idea what the deliberations of the court were and that he wasn’t there. A court usually passes airsoft sentence for a good reason; the least that one can do is to discover those reasons so that one is informed before pen finds paper!
Report abuse
The lady, me thinks, doth protest too much at 81. The comment referred to the tax avoidance industry, whereas you have gone in “feet first” and confused this with the finance industry, which you then go on to defend. You also become confused and susequently cite “taxpayers” and their civic entitlements, although only you will know what that has to do with the post about which you complain. I certainly saw no mention of that point.
Tax avoidance is, of course, a different thing to investment funds and related matters, so I wonder why you have overreacted in the given way? Would you perceive a connection between investment funds and tax avoidance, by any chance?
Report abuse
81: “Are you saying that the entire working class in Jersey are actually too useless to manage even that?”
Er, no. Are you?
Report abuse
82; Great idea. It’s called community service and it already exists.
Report abuse
“If the States amended the laws so, for example, it was clear that for a second offence of violence a minimum sentence of 5 years was required the courts would have to follow. Or they could introduce a new system of dealing with young offenders, or take benefits away from anti-social families.” – Paul de Gruchy (4).
I would have no problem if these remarks had been expressed by the average person in the street, but coming from a person whose job (presumably) might include defending persons who have been charged with violent or anti-social offences, I find them deeply disturbing. It raises doubts about Advocate De Gruchy’s willingness to defend anybody who requires his services without prejudice.
And if he is discriminating about the types of individuals he wishes to defend then he is in the wrong profession.
Report abuse
one thing that needs changing is the ” can’t be named for legal reasons ” a lot of offenders are under 18 and know they won’t be named and shamed,bring it down to at least 14 I say.
Report abuse
Lots of comments.
“barely researched letter”? Well, the letter is a list of facts followed by a few rhetorical questions. The only part of it that could be contentious is the assertion that the court sentencing policy has failed the community. Well, I feel that it has. Lots of people in the last week have told me that they agree. Helier Clement in last nights JEP said he agreed. If a large proportion of the population thinks that the approach of the courts is wrong, then the courts are doing something wrong. Now, that failure may be a failure of communication, but if the public have no faith in sentencing, that is something the courts and politicians should be very worried about.
I like that some of my suggestions on sentencing were described as “laughable”. No doubt the same is said about Singapore. I would stand by my basic idea: that the sentence for any unprovoked violent attack should be at least 5 years. So significant that every person knows when they go out that if they attack somebody else it will be their life that is changed forever, not just the victim’s.
The sandwich board suggestion may be novel, but the point is that committing violence is an act against the community and those who carry it out should be humiliated before the community. Let’s not pretend walking up King Street with a placard recording your crime is in some way unfair on the individual who applies his foot to the face of a stranger. If that is laughable then I don’t understand why.
It is a pity that class and the finance industry have been raised. These are irrelevant arguments. If Jersey is to be a pleasant place to live then it is too small to be a divided community. It needs everyone to play their part in standing up to violence and anti-social behaviour. Because, as with all of these things, it will be the poor who suffer disproportionately if things carry on the way they have been left to develop.
The letter has started a debate and in that it has been successful. One of the key points that I wished to make is simply the lack of vision among virtually all of the candidates standing for election.
This is clearly an issue that is a priority for a lot of voters. Jersey is a small Island and a fantastic opportunity to try different policies from those that have failed in the UK. But it seems almost all of our prospective politicians do not wish to engage with the electorate on this point. They say they listen, but during my lifetime I have seen nothing other than slavishly copying the UK approach. Yet I have never heard one person suggest that the UK approach to criminal sentencing is to be applauded.
At the same time, they complain about voter apathy. Well, they cannot have it both ways.
Let us put candidates on the spot with a simple question: do you support the current approach to both preventing and dealing with violent crime? And if not, what actual policies will you bring forward if elected?
Then at least we can find out where people stand on this issue. Because at the moment, there is only silence. And that cannot be good for democracy.
And if any candidate says “good question, important issue, but it is complex and we need to consult and find a consensus” then you know they have no policies at all.
Report abuse
Last comment.
Jerry (89). As previously mentioned, I have never done criminal work.
Having said that, your post makes no sense. The job of a criminal lawyer is to ensure that his client is dealt with fairly by the court. It is not “to get the client off”. The primary duty is to the court, not to the defendant.
There is no contradiction between defending a client and wanting severe punishments for those found guilty. Indeed, if punishments are severe, it makes the job of a defending lawyer even more important, to ensure that the innocent are not so punished.
Many of my friends are criminal lawyers. They find the whole of criminal law “laughable”. Sometimes it is cases that should never go to court, sometimes it is clients who are acquitted in the face of overwhelming evidence, sometimes it is defences/excuses that are absurd. Believe me, if they didn’t see the absurdity of it they couldn’t go on.
If you think that you need to be a bleeding heart liberal to be a criminal lawyer I can only assume you don’t know many criminal lawyers or understand what their role is.
Report abuse
So the ‘alleged’ rapist gets his name plastered all over the JEP and the ‘victim’ isn’t named? Human Rights anyone?
In todays JEP is another alleged rape. Anyone still feel safe in Jersey?
Report abuse
Do you intend to write to the Bailiff as an officer of the court?
Report abuse
Hidden agenda at election time.
Report abuse
I think I see what Jerry at 88 is saying. What is particularly surprising and somewhat worrying is that the Advocate will say all of this about the subject while admitting that he has no idea what happened in court on the day, nor that he knows much about the practical operation of criminal justice.
I should have thought that the better way to have gone about the exercise would have been to establish why the court passed an apparently lenient sentence on the day. There could have been a variety of reasons for that, ranging from extensive mitigation to someone giving evidence against others. The court has a robust sentencing policy which is usually enacted, as any look through the relevant reports will disclose.
Surely a professional approach would have been to conduct some sort of enquiry before passing judgment on the Jurats (who decide sentence) and the Bailiff or Commissioner in the case?
Report abuse
Expertly done Paul #60 and particularly at #90 & #91 where you taught that ‘bleeding heart liberal’ Jerry a thing or two.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think it is quite plain that you would endorse Sir Philip Bailhache who says: “In terms of public order, the streets of St Helier are generally safe places to be, but it is not a fundamental human right to become offensively drunk in a public place, and to cause alarm or nuisance to others. There is no justification for disorderly behaviour in public, and the police and magistrates should deal appropriately with such offenders.”
This would be difficult to disagree with and seem to rather echo your views and the drive of your letter.
We need trust and confidence in our politicians and in these exchanges you have shown the moral fibre and fortitude backbone.
It is a cliche but if you can’t trust an advocate who can you trust ?
Sorry to ask but we don’t all have time to read all the manifestos and I and many others would value your recommendation on who to vote for in the senatorials.
I’m sure that Sir Philip would endorse your candidacy if and when you allow yourself to become a candidate.
Would you agree that we need a high deposit system to in future cut out the no hoppers we see in the current line up who are clearly the wrong sort, and as Sir Philip says just waste states time -if they manage to get elected ?
CBO
Report abuse
Coincidence that the UK are looking for some of europes most wanted criminals hiding in the UK thanks to the ease of passage in to places like ours? We are a soft touch! Coincidence I think not!
Report abuse
96;
I’m sure that Sir Philip would endorse your candidacy if and when you allow yourself to become a candidate.
Well said and well observed. I think we might possibly see the true purpose of the original correspondence as the smokescreen begins to clear.
Report abuse
96; What are the, “no hoppers” described at the last paragraph of your post? Are they the ones who don’t say, “how high” when the finance industry asks them to do something?
Report abuse
If Helier Clement agrees with you then you must be right; he’s a big man with no name who writes suff in a newspaper so it must be right.
Report abuse
The Royal Court said this in a recent case:
” But the Court has repeatedly said that violent attacks of this nature merit a prison sentence. We have carefully considered the matter but we do not think a prison sentence can be avoided in this case given the nature of the assault and given the previous record. What we do think is that we can reflect the mitigation, particularly the good work you have been doing recently, by reducing the conclusions which we think were a little high.
The sentence of the Court is one of 18 months’ imprisonment and we make an Exclusion Order for 12 months after your release. “
Report abuse
#92 COM-mentor. I agree. While rape is an horrendous crime, there are too many occasions where there are false accusations, and the guys name is dragged through the mud regardless. I know that for other crimes, people are named while on trial, but for such an emotive crime, there is often no way back for a man charged and tried for rape. Neither victim or alleged offender should be named, with an offender only named once convicted.
I know of someone who was the second person a woman accused of rape. He was distraught as he was on remand for 3 months, before it was proven she had lied. His name was published, hers never was, and it was deemed to not be in the public interest to prosecute her. Massively wrong!
Report abuse
Paul de Gruchy:
‘Many of my friends are criminal lawyers. They find the whole of criminal law “laughable”. Sometimes it is cases that should never go to court, sometimes it is clients who are acquitted in the face of overwhelming evidence, sometimes it is defences/excuses that are absurd. Believe me, if they didn’t see the absurdity of it they couldn’t go on.’
Obviously happy to take the money, nevertheless!
Nice work, if you can get it! Very well paid too. ‘Absurd’. You said it matey, on behalf of your mates. Will they disown you for lifting the lid, or all come on here agreeing?
Not so long ago, someone remarked on here that Jersey is run by lawyers for the benefit of lawyers. How true.
Report abuse
What about the self defence angle? Someone who is attacked and who then reacts in the heat of the moment could be effectively victimised under the proposed draconian laws, like Tony Martin. “Some of my best friends are criminal lawyers” too and they readily identify such a possibilty of a miscarriage of justice. Like most populist suggestions, this one is full of flaws and is clearly aimed at agitating a certain type of voter.
There is a further class angle too, in so far as the arguments put to date expressly and carefully disregard the effects that unemployment, disenfranchisement, excessive immigration and alcohol abuse will have upon those who don’t have the trappings of success and affluence. This is a case of “hooray henries” standing on the sidelines and “tut tutting” at the behaviour of the underclass which they are happy to perpetuate.
Report abuse
I see a couple of times (eg 101) people have quoted from the court’s conclusion of an 18 month sentence as evidence of a robust sentencing policy.
Just so people have the full picture, here are the unedited details of the offence from the law report, which is accessible on the internet (the case being AG v Hinds):
“On 1st May, 2011, the defendant spent the day drinking a large quantity of lager whilst watching football. He was extremely drunk. At approximately 22:30 he arrived at the Hotel Ambassadeur, St Clement and purchased a pint of lager. At approximately 22:40 the victim, who had also been drinking, arrived at the Hotel.
The defendant was talking to a resident in the bar area. Both were swearing and talking loudly and despite being told to keep the noise down, they continued. The victim then asked the resident to keep his voice down and mind his language. The resident apologised but the defendant stood up and approached the bar. The victim told him that he had not been talking to him and that he should finish his drink or leave. The defendant then became racially abusive to the barman and continued swearing and causing a scene. The situation eventually calmed down and as it was too late for the defendant to buy another drink, he left calmly, saying goodnight as he went.
Approximately twenty minutes later, the victim and another regular patron went outside for a cigarette. Shortly afterwards the defendant reappeared, having returned home to change his top and to collect a wooden baseball bat which he now carried. He walked casually up to the victim and stated “You’re not such a big man now are you.” He then struck him forcefully to the right hand side of his stomach with the baseball bat, using both hands. The blow caused the victim to drop to his knees and as he did so he grabbed the defendant around the waist, knocking him off balance. The defendant then swung the baseball bat at the victim once again, this time hitting him on the back of his head causing him to bleed heavily.
The police were subsequently called and the defendant was restrained by other patrons until his arrest. The defendant had blood running down his face and on his hands and there were also two pools of blood on the ground. During interview the defendant stated that he could not recall leaving the Hotel, collecting the baseball bat or assaulting the victim due to his level of intoxication.
As a result of the assault the victim suffered a cut to his head, severe bruising to his stomach and bruising to his foot. He was also left feeling nervous and it was two weeks before he felt able to return to the Hotel.”
And then, in previous convictions:
“Thirty five convictions for seventy four offences, including seventeen historic incidents of assault. Only one assault in the last ten years.”
You can read the whole thing and make your own minds up. I believe this was the case that prompted the JEP editorial referred to in the letter.
Report abuse
Paul,
I would urge you to ignore wurzel gummidge @98 who seems to be hinting at some form of self interest and does not appreciate the standards of integrity in your profession.
It is perfectly right and proper that like minded professions such as yourself and Sir Philip should be free to support one another even if you were to disagree on some aspects of detail. These are desperate times with states policy being near dictated by those clowns in scrutiny so this is the time for Jerseymen of integrity and intelligence to nail their colours to the mast. I therefore would still appreciate your recommendation as to who else deserves our vote.
On a separate matter I would like to highlight the likely connection between posts 98, 99 and possibly 100 done a mere 13 minutes later
Your moral code (& that of any right minded person) would no doubt class it as
dishonest and disrespectful not to make it plain if there was indeed some undisclosed connection between their posts on this thread.
I don’t expect that the law could be used to prosecute them (do advise), but at least they should be publicly exposed -perhaps in line with your brilliant ‘bill board’ idea.
Such a person does not understand the meaning of the word integrity and they disrespect you and indeed this forum and all readers of it.
I do understand that my evidence is only circumstantial but this is far from a trivial matter at election time.
And before the usual handful of bleeding heart liberals accuse me of being a fascist I would like to say that I do understand that there are mitigating circumstances when you feel disempowered, but it is still deceitful and counterproductive.
Yours,
Peter Falk
(or should I say Columbo Tox)
Report abuse
The police claim to be interested in law and order..yet every weekend lately near La Fregate cafe and the DUKW park are gangs of 14 year olds slugging back bottles of Vodka openly sitting on that wall….hwre are the parents…where are the cops….Yer ‘avin a larf.
Report abuse
103; how about this one, then?!
“But the Court has repeatedly said that violence in public is not to be tolerated and will almost invariably attract a sentence of imprisonment. Despite the recommendations of the background report and the various mitigation we cannot proceed by way of a non-custodial sentence given the circumstances of this offence and the fact that it carried on out into the street after the initial incident.
We think the Crown has allowed adequately for all the mitigation available in its conclusions and therefore the sentence of the Court is that you be sentenced to 12 months’ imprisonment.”
Report abuse
“Yours,
Peter Falk
(or should I say Columbo Tox)”
OI! Columbo! GET OFF MY PATCH!
Yours
Jim
Report abuse
Sorry Jim (109), I will be off now, Mrs Columbo is having her sister round tonight and I can’t be late, you never married did you ?
Oh, Just one more thing Mr de Gruchy sir ;
In post #5 you said:
“I opposed airsofting when the application was made in 2008 because I had no information in relation to the matter…. ” & “….carried out in a responsible manner and so when the permit as reapplied for last year I did not oppose it”
On checking the 2008 facts at: http://www.thisisjersey.com/2008/11/21/trinity-war-game-gets-go-ahead/
QUOTE: At the Planning applications panel meeting yesterday lawyer Paul de Gruchy objected to the plans. He said: ‘Airsofting is illegal in some countries and regulated in others. Sometimes it can involve pyrotechnics such as grenades, smoke bombs and rocket launchers, and some people use the bushes for camouflage and they might pull them down.’
All that stuff and “grenades and rocket launchers” Mr de Gruchy sir. I can’t see how that was “no information” or were you just paint(ball)ing a scene for a bit of drama ? (Mrs Columbo calls it scaremongering & rabble rousing, but I like drama as it is my stock and trade)
Sorry to bother you with this when you have not even answered my last questions @96 & 106. There are just a few loose ends I need to sort out -nothing to worry about, just for the paperwork, you know.
Answer as soon as you can sir, I just want to get this file closed.
Peter Falk
Report abuse
This correspondence has a poignant interest for me.
About eighteen months ago I was vacationing in (old) Jersey; I have written that because I am domiciled in New Jersey, which is no stranger to fortuitous and uninvited crimes against the person.
My late wife and I had decided on our last evening in St Helier to take a stroll from the Pomme d’Or Hotel along the Esplanade. While standing next to the “tree statue”, and admiring the twinkling lights across the bay and along the coast, I was hit on the head by two of your local thugs and my wife’s pocket book was stolen.
I was lucky in that no permanent damage was caused. The only valuable contents of my wife’s purse were a hundred or so Jersey pounds, but if that is the way your States Police force manages to enforce your local laws I feel very, very sorry for you guys who have to tolerate this sort of arrant lawlessness year in and year out.
What did we get from the “honorary” policeman who laboriously took down the details of the crime when we reported it? Nothing but a sucking of his teeth. What feedback did we get from the Jersey police subsequently? Zilch.
We will not rush to return to old Jersey until you can guarantee folks’ safety.
Report abuse
Cheshire Cat bites Mad Hatters at T Party
After 5 years of silent observation and considerable contemplation (Air Chief Marshall) Sir John Cheshire used his one opportunity to speak in the states chamber thus:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/jersey/content/articles/2006/04/07/lg_farewell_speech_feature.shtml
After thanking [ex]Minister Syvret for his generous remarks, and complementing the good points of our community, Sir John went on to say:
“I am concerned that our modest efforts may have helped the various organisations to treat the symptoms of some of the Island’s more stigmatic and therefore obscure social problems. But, I fear, we have done little or nothing to overcome the root causes of those problems. I say that because considerable political backbone will be required even to acknowledge the existence of some of those root causes. And then very difficult political decisions will be needed in this house to overcome them.
……………………………………………………
Ills that are here, are inescapable and will keep utopia at bay for as long as they remain untackled. Until they are tackled, many dedicated Islanders will doubtless continue to treat the symptoms of the problems with great dedication and humanity. ”
Is it rather naive and simplistic to focus only on the aspects of deterrent and punishment ?
Appeals to a certain type of voter -the type that got us into this fine mess.
Report abuse