Jail for people carrying knives
Wednesday 26th October 2011, 3:00PM BST.
Assistant Magistrate Bridget Shaw
ANYONE caught carrying a knife in public can expect to go to prison, a judge warned yesterday when she jailed a man for concealing a 20 cm knife in his trousers.
John Luis Gouveia, who initially denied to police that he had a kitchen knife with him in town last August, was jailed for five months by the Magistrate’s Court yesterday.
Although the defendant did not threaten anyone with it or try to use it, he had the knife in a ‘very dangerous situation’, Assistant Magistrate Bridget Shaw said.
‘Those who carry knives must expect to go to prison,’ she said. ‘I have considered the alternative in this case but because of the circumstances I feel I have no option but to send you to prison today.’
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I fully understand that if you walk around town with an 8 inch kitchen knife concealed on your person then you should face punishment but… Is there a size limit which is considered legal, I’m a handyman and I have a pocket knife on me at all times, it’s invaluable as there are so many applications for it and it’s easier than popping to the tool shed every time I need it, it’s no more than 4″ long.
I also walk my dog on the beach with it in my pocket, he got badly tangled in some fishing netting that had been discarded and was badly injured a couple of years ago, since then I always carry the pocket knife on my beach walks.
I have no criminal record and would never use the knife in anger but am I breaking the law and facing jail?
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Good on you Bridget. This is the sort of justice the public want and expect, rather than over-tolerant liberalism. Jersey was once a safe and tranquil paradise before thuggery became the norm.
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Does this mean that if one requires a new kitchen knife, you can buy it in town but must then have it delivered to avoid prosecution from carrying said knife from the shop to your car?!?
/sarcasm
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If you create a situation where-by you can be sentenced to a jail term for carrying a knife, you must also provide some sort of system that allow’s genuine trades or craft worker’s special permit’s to carry a knife.
If you do not, then innocent people have the potential to be wrongly sentenced.
I work with a knife on a daily basis. I always have a knife on my person when working and yes, sometimes I forget to remove it from said pocket.
How can I prove it was a genuine mistake and not just a excuse that would save me being sentenced ?
It’s all very well being tough on this sort of thing. But you must provide balance.
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I would like clarification on what is and isn’t acceptable to the law makers with regard to carrying knives in public.
I, similar to the earlier comment from Handyman 1, regularly carry several knives in public, one of which is 10inches and looks absolutely ‘evil’. I enjoy angling and frequently walk through town, sometimes late at night, with my gear.
I also, have never been in any trouble with the law and really cannot see myself ever using my knives for anything other than their intended purpose. That said, it is probably only a matter of time before I also find myself in a ‘dangerous situation’. Perhaps I should make a detour to avoid town on my way home!
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It all comes down to having a reasonable need to have one on your possession, and intent. A fisherman can argue that it is appropriate to have a knife in their tackle box, and assuming he is sitting at the end of the pier and using it to gut fish, he can demonstrate a reasonable need for having one in his possession. He also can show a lack of intent to harm anyone. In this particular situation, it would appear he had no reasonable need to carry a knife, he had it concealed, and his motives (intent) were unknown. There is very little legitimate reason why anyone would need to conceal a knife in town down their trouser leg. Good call to get him off the street.
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Well the logic seems good, and I doubt many will object to a prison term when a knife is being carried for the wrong reasons, but I thought that our Prison was as good as full, so where will these people be sent ?
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A bit draconian are the likes of fishermen going to be jaied for carrying a work impliment?
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If the situation, time of day and type of knife can reasonably justify your having that knife, you’ll be fine. It’s not really a size thing, more common sense.
For example, someone engaged in an outdoor activity with a Leatherman on their belt isn’t really going to raise eyebrows, just like a tradesman wouldn’t look out of place walking through town with tools and a knife on their belt. They all have fairly justifiable reasons for having an appropriate knife with them.
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C’mon Bridget – you are having a larf aren’t you? Many people use and need knives as part of their profession/trade some of which have been mentioned above, but add to that chefs whose knives are very personal to them and do require sharpening at times.
Does this mean that if they are carrying them on their person they will be dragged into the Courts? If I go to Le Lievres to buy a new carving knife will I incur the wrath of the police and magistrates court?
Police state or what?
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Surely this should have been stated earlier rather than using it as an opportunity to make an example of someone? It doesn’t seem very fair when there has been no warning. That exemplified someone is now paying the “knee jerk” price for the serious and tragic crime of a few months ago. This looks a bit iffy and ultra vires to me.
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So the guy who carried two knives into town on a Saturday morning, stabbed, and nearly killed a another guy outside the Royal Yacht a few years ago should have served more than a couple of years?
Well he hardly did any time and is now out and about. Not quite proportionate treatment. it would appear if you do want to carry a knife make sure you use it before you get caught carrying. That way the Royal Court can be lenient whereas the Magistrates have now set the penalties higher for not using it.
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I bet our esteemed magistrate has never cut cauliflowers and had to cross roads to get to another field!
‘Mr Baker , should I prosecute this horrible miscreant?’
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People need to seriously use their common sense. A fella walking with his fishing equipment or a workman with his tools can surely justify why they have a knife with them. Similarly someone who has just purchased it with a receipt is surely in “lawful possession” of the knife. Some scrotebag who has it in his pocket hidden or down his trousers are the people this message is targetting surely……
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There is no law in Jersey that stops you carrying a knife as a tool. Carry a knife that was designed as a weapon, or use any other knife as one, and you then fall foul of the Firearms Law 2000:
43 Prohibition on the carrying of offensive weapons without lawful authority
or reasonable excuse
(1) Any person who without lawful authority or reasonable excuse (the proof
of which shall lie on the person) has with him or her in any public place
any offensive weapon, shall be guilty of an offence and liable to a fine or
to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 2 years, or to both.
(2) Where any person is convicted of an offence under paragraph (1) the
court may make an order for the forfeiture or disposal of any weapon in
respect of which the offence was committed.
(3) In this Article “offensive weapon” means any article made or adapted for
use for causing injury to the person, or intended by the person having it
with him or her for such use by him or her.
So if, like me, you carry a knife as a useful everyday tool, you have nothing to worry about.
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I appreciate the copy & paste of the relevant article but if the police or magistrate cited the guidelines they use for sentancing I’d be much happier. An ambigous interpretation varying uopn the individual judge does little to reassure me.
I carry a loaded AK47 which I use for scratching my back, it’s just the right size, am I breaking the law?
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Everyone calm down.. Its great news for our safety and our families safety.
I carry a pocket tool which has a knife on it, but getting that out of its case and flicking out the knife would take me so much time that by then i wouldnt be able to hurt anyone..
Lots of tradesmen, fishermen etc carry knives on them but the point of the matter is.. They dont hide them down their trouser leg or up their sleeve while on a night out.
If you can easily prove why you have one,(if you are caught, which you shouldnt be if you arent using it in an offensive way) then you will be fine.
This ruling is to protect our island, and stop the little chavs going to town with a knife cos they think they are hard.
P.s – Was this jailed chap a local lad? deport if not.
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I think some of you are being silly. You can buy a knife and carry it as it will probably have a shield on it and be in a bag.
This is for the people who want to hurt people with knifes.
Get 5 years for carrying a knife and if caught a second time then they should get 25, this is the way the UK is going and is a great idea.
If there not from this island they should be sent home for any crime they commit.
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Oh and those people who carry a knife for your job and call it a tool, you don’t need to carry your tools around with you. You are just being an arse and should look at alternative blades for your job.
Even if you did carry a knife for your job I don’t think the police would even convict in that instance but hey it is the Jersey police so it could be possible but in the real world im sure you will be fine to carry your 3-4 inch blade but just stop and think, is there a need to be carrying at this time and place.
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Thank you “The Law” and the others with some sense. This law will not target legitimate workmen, after all, why would the police stop them in the first place.
Along with the drinking culture, there is also the idea in some people that they need to take a weapon with them if they go to the pub or a nightclub “for protection”. Its not uncommon, even in Jersey. Despite what some people would think of our quiet island. These people do not deserve to be here if they have to take knives out with them when they want a few pints to get off their heads.
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15 the law, can I ask a question? it is not hypothetical, as I have done this a few times, I have walked to work at 0800hrs through town carrying an 8inch kitchen for the sole purpose of cutting up a melon which I have to purchase in my lunch time, so if I am stopped and searched and the knife is found I have no proof that I am going to buy said fruit later where do I stand in relation to Mrs Shaws statement, I am asking you because you have quoted the Firearms law 2000 and give the impression of being a police officer or lawyer .
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In an amazing coincidence similar moves were also announced in the UK on the same day..
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I think we must keep things in perspective here, a fisherman walking through town on his way to the peir with all the other gear (not just a knife) is not going to get stopped or arrested.
However taking that knife with you to prowl the streets at night with no clear cause to carry it obviously would.
However there should be some clarification on the “swiss army knife” alot of people do carry these as they are handy. It should be made clear on what grounds this is acceptable. However again, doing a bit of DIY and dropping into B&Q with it would be acceptable in my eyes, going to the pub for a p*ss up with it, not acceptable.
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Bridget Shaw,
Your statement is wrong and unlawful. You have created mass panic with your stupidity and far reaching statements.
Please go away, dont come back.
Kind regards,
Mark Jerold
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@ 21 orsoncart.:
I’m not a police officer or lawyer, just somebody who often carries a knife and wanted reassurance that I was being lawful, so I asked Citizens’ Advice, who asked the police.
In the scenario that you have presented you are doing nothing unlawful. In the unlikely event that you are stopped and searched by the police, the onus is on them to prove that you are carrying the kitchen knife, which is not deemed an offensive weapon per se, with intent to use it as a weapon.
It’s a scenario that I can associate with. All the knives at my work are as blunt as spoons, so I frequently cycle to work with a sharp knife in my bike pannier to use on my fruit. We are doing nothing wrong.. unlike Mr Gouveia – who obviously hadn’t popped out for a melon.
Unlike the UK, Jersey still has a sensible law concerning knife use. Let’s keep it that way.
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Someone was in the paper tonight for the same thing and they didn’t go to jail. The left hand doesn’t know what the right(wing) hand is doing in that court.
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When I was a schoolboy, just about everyone carried a knife. They ranged from bijou pen knives to scout sheath knives.
Despite massive epidemics of desk carving, schools accepted that boys would have them in their pockets. Nobody was ever stabbed and although fights broke out in the playground from time to time resorting to ones knife would never remotely be considered.
Of course, this was before the days of Rambo style ‘survival’(read stabbing) knives and violent films like West Side Story. A few had flick knives brought from France but in those days a fairly low proportion even went to France and of those who did, far more bought back Bic pens than knives.
Years later I bought a classic Opinel knife, the type used by old ladies on French trains to peel fruit or spread patè. This knife had a simple locking mechanism, a fact that I was unaware of initially, but when discovered struck me as being a safety feature rather than a murder aid. Coupled with a pointed blade, the lock tecnically made it an offensive weapon.
When I moved to London a friend saw it in my car tool kit. He warned me that the police would do me for it. I scorned his advice, feeling that, like Stuart Syvret, I could hold my own if it came to court.
A few years ago I ground off the sharp end. This made it less useful for gutting snipe but now I would defy any policemen, or, if it got that far, Bridget Shaw, to imply an intention to stab.
If, despite all my attempts to stay legal, I were to end up in La Moye for carrying a blunt knife, I’m sure that I would have no trouble getting a weapon smuggled in and that officers would all be looking the other way if I wanted to stab a nonce (whatever that means).
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I don’t know whats more worrying. Carrying a knife, or the views of some of those posting on here.
One minute people are complaining that the courts are not tough enough on violent crime, then as soon as a magistrate wants to do something to make our streets safer, people complain about that too.
Anyone with even just one ounce of common sense would see that Mrs Shaw is sending a message to those individuals who carry knives for the sole purpose of causing harm, not fisheman, workman or melon munchers.
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25 the law, thanks for your reply, I hope I do not get stopped and searched, maybe Mrs Shaw meant concealing knives etc, and possibly the time of night or day
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You are allowed to carry a knife in France if the blade is smaller than the palm of your hand.
The thing with a swiss knife (pocket knife) is that you might actually cut your finger if you try to stab someone.
Opinels are probably more dangerous, but widely used by hunters and fishermen.
Kitchen knives should stay in the kitchen, unless you come out from le Lievres.
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Mark Jerold & others who have angry heads
All of you bar none missed the point of her comments. The magistrate was pointing out that anyone found guilty of the offence of being in possession of a knife as an offensive weapon will most likely go to prison.
In no way has she intimated a change in law preventing the carrying of knives for legitimate reasons.
I name you Mark Jerold because you call the magistrates comments stupid, well, whilst I assume you are not a stupid person you have made comments that clearly display your inability to understand plain English
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OK lets clarify this because it’s perfectly simple. If you use a knife to carry out your job then it’s fine to carry it on your person. Unless it’s dark, there’s an R in the month or it rained last Tuesday.
You can attach it to your belt ( not sure if belt is an offensive weapon, I’ll have to check ) but not strapped to your whatsit. Anything bigger than 6 inches is considered dangerous ( this includes whatsits )it must be sheathed if not in use ( the opposite applies to whatsits )must not weigh more than a large potatoe and must be produced for inspection if requested by the police ( not recommended for whatsits, well you can chance your arm with a WPC but I wouldn’t )
Now what’s all the fuss about?
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To Laura, post no.31:
I don’t buy the JEP and can only comment on what is posted in this online article.
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Thankyou for that brilliant analysis Mulvie, at last clarity on the isssue.
But I would also like to add one point on the issue.
While I am glad that anyone who takes a weapon out for walk will be punished, i’m not so happy about paying 5 months prison costs for what was ,literally,a victimless crime. I think a couple of hundred hours(or more) community service would get the point across. Not just to the criminal but to all his friends and associates when they see him using all of his free time to clean litter and cliff paths while still going to work in the week.
Just a thought.
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I too have a Handyman tool in my bag, a nice Ladies one in Pink, got that overseas, has come in very handy on occasions, similar to a swiss army knife. I also have A metal comb, it has a pointed end so will that be illegal too!
The Law should be clearer and Should use BLOODY COMMON SENSE, when to enforce it or not!
Going to town for a night out,with knife/baseball bat studded with nails etc…..tucked inside coat/back of jeans “BREAKING THE LAW”, Going to town waving a samurai sword around the streets “BREAKING THE LAW”. Agree any child/youths carrying a knife yes “BREAKING THE LAW” as why should they be carrying one in the first place!!
Now Professionals/Tradesmen different matter entirely…
My Dad is a fisherman and always has a knife on him! So should he get caught in nets, by accident, he has it, as well as performing the usual repairs to nets etc.. “NOT BREAKING THE LAW”.
Tradesman with his leather handyman belt of tools around him, popping out to get something, “NOT BREAKING THE LAW”!
Get the picture !
USE BLOODY COMMON SENSE HERE !
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Does it count if i have a plastic one?
How will I cut my apple now?
Can i carry a razor blade instead then ?
Will I have to have a Police escort to/from town if i need to purchase a knife or God forbid a set, which has 6 matching forks !!!
Or WORSE, do I have to apply for Court Permission/Obtain a permit to buy a set of cutlery!
So will your place of work, now carry extra insurance for you to leave your tools of the trade onsite/there, so you don’t have to take them to and from work, encase you get caught by PC Jobsworth, and appear in front of “Judge Judy”. Let me think ummmmmmm NOT LIKELY!
So all Tradesmen/Chefs/Fishermen/Butchers etc.. What you going to use now guys! Don’t think the plastic will cut it!
Surely restaurants now could be breaking the Law by tempting us to steal a knife, as they have one on the table in front of us!!!!
MRS JUDGE JUDY, HOPE YOU, AND ALL THE THER JUDGES USE YOUR BLOODY COMMON SENSE HERE! WHEN TO ENFORCE OR NOT!
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33
The Law
‘I don’t buy the JEP and can only comment on what is posted in this online article.’
Likewise. However, I do take the ‘Weekly’ but It doesn’t have all the articles in full.
Sadly, in the process of being ‘improved’, the website is now almost disfunctional compared with before. Look at ‘This is Guensey’ for a reminder of what we have lost.
We have eventually got the letters back on stream but how much longer before we get the ‘You Say’ summary page running properly again.
It’s there but without the content, so presumably we can hope that it might eventually be functioning properly. Until then it is a right old chore having to call up each story again and again and scroll to the end to see if there are any new comments. There isn’t even a comments count at the head of each story any more.
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Further to my post @37, I spoke too soon.
Within the two days it took for this thread to get updated, ‘This is Guernsey’ has now followed suit and broken what didn’t need fixing.
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