Death of a language
Saturday 3rd December 2011, 6:00PM GMT.
A farm sale in 1937 when much of the talk would have been in Jèrriais
THE Island’s ancient native tongue, Jèrriais, could effectively die out as an everyday spoken language within two decades, Island experts have warned.
Tony Scott Warren and Geraint Jennings, of the Jèrriais office at Highlands, say that without research to find out how many fluent speakers there are left, and without more money to invest in early years teaching, the future for the language is worrying.
In the 2001 census, Islanders were asked whether they spoke the Island patois, also known as Jèrriais. A total of 5,700 answered yes, with 113 saying it was their first language. However, it is accepted that many who said they spoke the language would not be fluent speakers. The question was not asked in this year’s census, which is something that has frustrated the experts.
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This is natural selection and absolutely nothing to cry about.
If a language can only survive if taxpayers pump money to keep it in life support, then it’s a rubbish language. A language should only exist on it’s own merits.
The world will not be a worse place without Jerriais.
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so lets make it part of the curriculum, regardless of english being your first language, lets face it most occupiers of the island have wanted to stamp it out.
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Welsh is part of the curriculum in Wales and many kids really resent having to learn it and feel that they are wasting their time learning a language that has no use to them.
I was born on this island and am not an “occupier” and I am perfectly happy for it to be stamped out.
The language is an embarrassment, not something to be proud of.
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The language is NOT an embarrassment. Had you experienced the Nazi Occupation of the Island 1940/1945 it was then a very important language that frustrated the occupiers many of whom who could speak both English & French. If it is not useful or important then ask yourself why Cambridge University thinks that it is and now using it with students taking French exams.
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Well Alan, the Nazis are long gone and I have a feeling they won’t be back any time soon. If they fancy another crack, then I’ll gladly learn a bit of Jerriais to wind them up (although you don’t need to speak Jerriais to be able to sabotage their work which is a much better part of active resistance then just talking in another language if you ask me…)
Jerriais will always have an academic use (just like Latin), but no longer does it have a cultural use.
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Funny how one person can judge whether something has a cultural use or not
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The nazis might have gone, but it seems that the “fifth columnists” who purport to be Jersey but seem intent on selling it out are very much in abundance, more is the pity.
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Wyt ti’n siarad Cymraeg?
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Being bilingual has been shown to improve intelligence levels, and while it would be hard to be bilingual without parental input/support it isn’t impossible. Unfortunately English speaking nations tend to be so arrogant about English they fail to go about it the right way. Scotland has introduced more support for Gaelic, a sensible move as it is a far more musical language than English, and enrolment at bilingual schools is high.
Of course it’s much easier to retain a language when you are immersed in it (i.e. it’s on road signs etc and is just part of everyday life). What you fail to realise is that at some point someone has chosen to prioritise English over existing languages. This kind of thing is done by someone with English as their first language who is so ignorant to other cultures they assume everyone is like them and should do things their way. They are arrogant enough to ignore the fact that they have no right to quash other people’s cultures.
Given Westminster’s centuries of trying to tell Gaels that they are British, that their culture is no different to British culture, and their attempts to crush Gaelic culture, I would never suggest that anyone else’s culture is less relevant or less important than any other.
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I agree here that someone probably did make a decision to make English the more dominant language over Jèrriais.
Probably made due to the fact that English speakers as a first language were more in number.
I will not rise to the bait of the English speakers.
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Leah – sod Jerriais. Sure kids can be bilingual, but may I suggest they learn Mandarin (China), Spanish (most of South America) or Portuguese (Brazil) so they can be ready for the huge changes in the shift in world power that are now upon us and can therefore have the skills to work in an increasingly globalised work force?!
Speaking Jerriais is not going to get them jobs in Shanghai or Rio. And trust me, the islands children may have to be willing to go anywhere on the globe to find work.
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Yes brilliant idea, lets use tax funded eductation to teach our children a language that no one speaks. Why arent you in charge Leah?
I wrote a long post here but there are so many things wrong with what your saying i couldnt fit it all in without boring you all with blacks of text.
All i can say is that if my children are one day forced to learn this language they will have my permission to skip that class and do maths homework instead.
Not sure theres to many career prospects in “non”-communication these days.
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Leah, Scotlands population is 5m and 50,000 speak Gaelic. That’s 1% of the population.
Compare that with Jersey, where (apparently) 5,000 speak Jerriais, that’s around 5% of the population.
Gaelic is even more of a dead language than Jerriais is.
Sounds like someone has a bit of Anglophobia. Grow up. All of my Scottish friends are very proud to be British, don’t blame everything on the evil English and don’t feel like their culture has somehow been eroded.
English speaking peoples are notoriously bad at learning second languages, I agree. But if you think encouraging them to learn near dead languages that don’t enable them to speak to any more people will enthuse them, you have another thing coming. They can’t be bothered to learn French, so they can speak to 500m people, let alone Jerriais or Gaelic…
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I think bilingualism is to be encouraged, and I believe there is plenty of research to prove it conveys cognitive advantages.
I wouldn’t knock anybody’s right to learn Jerrais if they want to. But I have to say I would encourage my own kids to learn something which will be of more use to them in later life.
There were people in Cornwall, when I was at school there, trying to get us all to learn Cornish but we were much more interested in Spanish and French.
Sometimes a language just dies.
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I see you all, unsurprisingly on here, chose to completely missread what I said.
I explained the positive attributes of people being bilingual, I don’t care what that other language is (never said I did).
Secondly, Gaelic isn’t a dying language, you don’t define a language by what percentage of the population speak it, it was always a minority language in Scotland because it was only spoken in part of Scotland (and the part with a lower population). It’s not rocket science guys.
Sam, you are the one that needs to grow up, indeed you’ve made my point for me (thanks). Your friends most likely are NOT Gaels! Few Scots are, and most Scots share the same ancestry as the English. For those of us that don’t however, we have our own language, our own music, our own culture, and it is very different to what you would call ‘British’.
It’s not about ‘blaming’ England either, it’s about facts. When one country tries to take over another they try and make their mark by stamping out things that aren’t part of their life (read some history books, it happens all around the world). If you can’t deal with those facts then you really need to grow up mate.
Being ‘British’ doesn’t mean anything to me, I can’t help that, I have no idea what being ‘British’ is even meant to mean, nor do I really care to be honest. And it doesn’t mean anything to most Gaels. Other non-Gael Scots generally don’t care either way.
You have that stereotypical attitude that I spoke of where you just assume everyone is like you because you can’t be bothered to recognise anyone else’s culture, language etc. That’s pretty pathetic frankly and it’s exactly what people around the world hate about ‘the English’.
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Rubbish. As a true Norman, whose family links go back many centuries (300+ years) I say Sam is correct. New York Rap is more relevant todays the young of today than Jèrriais and I want neither.
Let Tony Scott Warren and Geraint Jennings plug Jèrriais in their own time, but no States funding please.
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Death of a language.
More like death of an island.
In twenty years time this island will only be full of tax dodging millionaires catered for by east europeans on minimum wage.The last thing any of these people think about is the locals whose island they have taken over.
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Yawn
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Agree wholehartedly, unyawn!
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agree for sure.
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Im local and i disagree with you. Its people like you that hold this island back from reaching its true potential.
I bet your the sort of person that moans about knocking down the Odean because you remember it when it WAS serving a purpose, now we all have to put up with that heap of cr*p to keep you and your like minded beans happy.
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Someone promised that the Odeon would be converted into a shopping centre. That never happened.
Why is it an SSI? Well, whether you agree with the listing or not, the place to start is the report produced by the States. Have you read it? If not, then you are speaking from a position of ignorance.
Who are the “people like you” and how does the fact that they would like to maintain a cultural identity hold anyone back? What would you see as the “true potential” of Jersey and how is that “true potential” prejudiced by the island’s culture? Are you in fact a Jersey person or do you just call yourself “local”?
You clearly have your own opinion, based as that may or may not be upon ignorance. The futher question is, do you believe that other people might have theirs?
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Sn we wl al tlk txt spk
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About time!
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It’s no great loss is it, Jerraais is only a bastardisation of French without the class. Do Jersey people really think it’s a coincidence that their native language as well as their street names happen to resemble remarkably those of a place 9 miles away.
There are no native Jersey people, just Frogs and Brits and pretty much anyone else who cared to invade this insignificant piece of rock in the Channel.
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You may be a proud immigrant, but remember there are still a lot of us natives. We are Normans with a proud history. We once ruled Sicily, England and parts of the Middle East.
We are British only because we won the Battle of Hastings. We are most certainly not French.
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Interesting interpretation of history there…
Firstly, Jersey didn’t become British until Britain came into existence (Act of Union 1707), but if you mean English instead, well, we didn’t become English until 1204, 138 years after the Battle of Hastings.
And lets not get nostalgic about it, the only reason Jersey chose to retain it’s loyalty to the English Crown was because he offered more concessions to the aristocracy in Jersey than the French King did. The aristocracy made this decision for their own selfish interest, and not for the average people of the island who lived lives of misery in a feudal serfdom.
There is nothing to be proud of there.
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Sam. I objected to being called a Frog, which I most certainly am not. You are however correct with regard to English/British history. History taught in our schools is very English centric; 1066 and all that. Norman history is very interesting and helped shape many British institutions including our justice system.
You are right, all our history is shaped by our aristocracy and their self interest. Some were good and others not so good.
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No, we became Norman in 1066, being part of the territory that conquered England.
Then, with the separation in 1204, England overlooked the channel islands.
We were, effectively, left alone by the British because we rejected the French (a powerful force in those days and one which still looks after its own people) and because we proved handy as an offshore strategic point in the channel (as Hitler also identified).
There is a lot to be proud of. We managed to fend off the French and we also managed to get on with the English who were, then as now, making a mess of running their country.
One other thing- we are not English. We are a British Crown dependency. Your lack of knowledge goes to explain the disloyalty to your own island, based as it is upon ignorance. It also serves to show why the culture of Jersey should be taught in schools and promoted as much as is possible.
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Well said Freddie. A typo in your post; we didn’t become Norman; we were Norman and part of the force that took England. What a pity that we gave it over; things could have been different otherwise. One thing is for sure, we’re not English, never have been and never will be, regardless of what our “guests” within the island might want.
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You’re the only sane person on hear. Jersey Schools are failing! and other people want to introduce another subject?
Private schools control there own methods of teaching so the pupils there will not be taught this. This is extremely naive of people to even think about teaching this in schools. Students in jersey don’t like languages, so don’t force it upon them.
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Completely agree Mark. But I suppose there is just too much history to be able to effectively examine it all.
But Freddie, sorry but you just don’t have a clue what you are on about and it looks like you didn’t even read what I wrote.
I never said Jersey is English, I said it WAS English. As a legal and political entity, “Britain” did not exist until 1707. Before that, Jersey could not have been a British Crown Dependency because no such thing existed. We were an English Crown Dependency. There is no ignorance there.
What is ignorance however, is you saying that England overlooked the Channel Islands in 1204. France was indeed as powerful as you say she was, and that is exactly why the King of England did the exact opposite of overlooking the island. It was then that the Constitutions of King John were drawn up that founded Jerseys system of government. England was desperate for Jerseys loyalty, which is why it was offered concessions (such as not being absorbed into the Kingdom of England) to keep the aristocracy happy. And my main point is that the aristocracy didn’t use those concessions benignly.
The fact Jersey is British, is nothing more than an accident of history. Throughout the past thousand years Jersey has had several periods where the French administered the island (1380s, 1461–68, etc), we could just have easily have been French had one battle turned out another way, so lets not get starry eyed about it.
Also, Jersey never fended off the French, England/ Britain fended off the French (Major Peirson was a Yorkshireman!).
As for “loyalty” I have no loyalty to any geo-political entity and such an idea is absurd. As Dr Johnson said “Patriotism is the final refuge of a scoundrel”.
Perhaps you should free yourself of your own sin before casting stones and calling me ignorant.
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Moral Backbone – you are right that we were Norman prior to 1066 but only since 933.
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We were Breton Celts before 933 and spoke brythonic Breton. After ‘becoming’ Norman therafter the language evolved into the hybrid of French that we love (or couldn’t be arsed about) today.
Incidentally, our Norman heritage is still very much alive and well and one can often get special treatment.
Only yesterday, down near the harbour, I saw a sign that clearly said ‘Parking For Normans Only’.
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There’s too much history to be examine it all, so we can limit our arguments to half-baked accounts which run down our own island while, at the same time, calling those who disagree silly names and promulgating leftist univerity twaddle.
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Okay Sam. whatever you say…say.(snore)….(snore)…zzzzz
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Wow i see the old folks home finally got their wifi working and free blogging lessons.
“we werent british in 933 we were english because france was too powerful and blah blah blah”
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Well, Tony and Geraint appear to have enjoyed a nice little job up at Highlands on the strengh of it.
Nothing lasts for ever, though!
The world is complicated enough without people speaking foreign (not English)languages through no choice, let alone just for the hell of it.
I bet that most of the 113 only said that just to be smart. I can’t believe that Jerriais is anyone’s first language in this day and age. Mind you, oldies do linger on disproportionately in Jersey.
Looks like hats have gone out of fashion as well!
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Although my parents speak English fluently, they speak Jersey French every day and even say they think in Jersey French, I’d say that makes it their first language.
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Ah, but they don’t matter, apparently. They are only Jersey people and this is only their island, but it seems that this doesn’t count for anything according to those who have come here and want to change the place. When in Rome etc.
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Describing our indigenous language as “foreign” perhaps sums up the damage that mass immigration has cused to the island. Well done for spotting it, even if unwittingly.
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Perhaps we jersey people should hone this language to perfection. Then, while in the course of our work, we can group together and speak our language in front of our clients so that they won’t understand what we are saying.
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And why not? It seems de rigour for other non-native English speakers.
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Shhh…you’ll have all the liberal fascists crawling all over you; the door only swings one way and it’s not in our favour. They can do things like that but we can’t, apparently.
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some tourists were in my local pub during the summer say how they thought it was lovely here the native tongue being spoken around the island every were the went town etc shame it was not je’rriais
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If latin didn’t survive with all its historical roots, then a patois used by a relatively tiny number of people on a island that has ever-increasing immigration hasn’t got a chance.
Forcing it on schoolkids is a waste of time. Maybe as a point of interest to brush over in ‘general studies’, but they should instead be taught more important topics such as personal economics: how to fill out a tax form, the dangers of loans and credit cards, how to budget etc. instead of wasting lesson time on what’s effectively a dead language.
It’s sad, but such is life – you can’t have such increased diversity in a population then expect the culture of the original native population to remain.
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Whilst I appreciate that those people who are really passionate about the Jèrriais language will be understandably downtrodden about this news, the reality is that it is a language spoken by a tiny tiny percentage of people on a tiny island, from a global perspective …
Forcing children to learn Jèrriais in schools, as an example, may actually HINDER their future prospects rather than benefit them. I learned French as a compulsory language in school and took to it really well, and it is something that I use professionally now and on an almost everyday basis. Had I not had *that* opportunity, but instead been forced to learn Jèrriais for example – a language with very little practical use – it would have shut-off more opportunities for me than it created.
Sam (#2) is absolutely right – loads of Welsh nationals can’t STAND being forced to learn Welsh as it hasn’t got a great deal of use outside of Wales. The Welsh are able to sustain the Welsh language through pushing for it because of the comparatively huge number of people they have learning it when compared with Jèrriais, and I actually really do like Welsh, so I’m not in any way bad-mouthing it.
So whilst I can appreciate if you’re a fan of the local dialect, you’ll be upset to hear of its falling into disuse, decline and ultimately passing away, it is, I feel, way too late to do anything about it and, really-speaking, given that the language has virtually no practical use *in* the island, and certainly none *outside* of it, this is a natural course of events.
I would be very interested to see some statistics as to how many people living in Jersey are locally-born, and how many of those have any grasp of Jèrriais … I think you’d find it quite a shockingly small number really.
!?!?! Puzzled !?!?!
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Welsh, like Gaelic, has a strong music culture though, I don’t know if Jerriais has the same?
Thankfully this makes it far harder for Welsh or Gaelic to die out than would be the case otherwise. The same is true of Latin. Languages that have a rich musical history definitely have that on their side and to lose them would mean losing a lot of great music, not just the language. Relatively speaking English is quite a crude and unlyrical language so translating into English can ruin a good piece.
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I have an interest in Jèrriais, both being from Jersey and being interested in French. I think part of the problem is that French isn’t pushed that much over here as perhaps it could – in fact I only started becoming interested in Jèrriais whilst I was studying French.
Talking to many people who are Jèrriais-bashers, I hear repeatedly that people are not willing to subscribe to it because it simply sounds ridiculous: ‘French in an English accent’. Whilst I find this simply not to be true, it does seem to be the case that people who do speak Jèrriais nowadays really don’t have the good old ‘Jersey accent’ that complements the language.
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How about english with a regional accent? That can sound quite ridiculous as well.
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As Sam says, a language should exist on it’s own merits. Language is about communication and these days that requirement renders Jersey French useless. English, French, Spanish and increasingly Mandarin and Russian are the “world languages” of culture, business and commerce. Money would be far better spent ensuring all our children have at least some understanding of these before taking on “hobby languages”.
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Well said, I agree.
To quote Neil Kinnock, when an EU commissioner, “The Lingua franca of Europe is English”.
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Perhaps we Jersey peoples should hone this language to perfection. Then, while in the course of our work, we can group together and speak our language in front of our clients and customers so that they won’t understand what we are saying.
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Yes alright, we get the point you’re making.
But those people who speak different languages in shops in Jersey are actually speaking their native language, not a language they have specifically learnt to annoy other people. So take your closet racism somewhere else.
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No, the Jersey language is our own language. Surely we are allowed to speak it? Similarly, if people from elsewhere are here, then they must know enough english to have got a job- in which case it should be spoken on the shop floor of the host country. It sounds like it is yourself who might be the small-minded one here, I am afraid.
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Waiting for someone to find the opportunity raise the “r” word (water closet or otherwise). An interesting distortion of so-called libral values. If looking after your own place and cultural references makes you a “racist” then we should get a load of t shirts printed and make it fashionable to have such social courage instead of weakly adopting the “closeted” thought process of Guardian reading lecturers at “red” red brick unis. I suppose the French, Australians and any others must all be “racist” because they look after their own.
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Who said anythimg about annoying people? If that were the case, then surely the employers should stop them doing it?
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I just want to say that I’m Portuguese, and very proud of it. I can speak English, French and Portuguese obviously.I agree when some of you say that only English should be spoken in shops. What I don’t understand is why this big fuss with Jerriais. My daughter is 10 and as been learning it for the past 3 years, because she wants it to and loves it.She even did the Eisteddfod. Shouldn’t you be more proud of your history?
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Sarah, I’m small minded? You’re the one rather fascisticly dictating what language people should speak.
People can have a private conversation in whatever language they like, it’s nothing to do with you. As long as the person at the shop speaks good enough English to deal with customers it is no business of yours what language they speak to their co-workers in.
Retail Gibberish, looking after your own does not mean oppressing others. If hearing other languages bothers you so much you have to be so petty as to try and annoy them back, then you just need to grow up and act your age.
(also, I love how you’re posting name calls foreign languages gibberish… pretty racist tbh.)
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As you say, it is none of anyone’s business (not even yours!) what language people speak in shops so if people want to speak Jersey French in shops, why should they stop just because you say so? It’s not up to you to (what was it again?) “fascisticly dictate” [does such a word exist?] what we can or cannnot speak!
This is an example of “liberal facism”; anything goes (1) so long as the liberals say that it is okay nad (2) so long as it doesn’t involve defending one’s own country or abode.
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Yes, anyone who resorts to the “r” word at the slightest opportunity is indeed small minded; as Dr Johnson would say, “he who tries to control speech and ideas of others through errant liberalism, is indeed a bigot, for they try to gain power under guise of freedom”. That, of course, is the explanation behind the rise of Stalin. I haven’t, by the way, seen anyone describe “foreign” (we’re all one world, hey?) languages as gibberish; could this be an example of seeing what one would want to see?
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Well said, Carmen and thank you so much. You and your daughter are, by the sound of it, much more “Jersey” (hope you don’t mind my saying that) than certain Jersey people making posts here.
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You’re right “Ah, but eh”, hence why I never said anyone should be banned from speaking Jerriais. I just said it shouldn’t get priority status and disproportionate amounts of funding.
[my spell check told me fascisticly doesn't exist, but I like the way it sounds anyway!]
Also, I’m a lefty, not a liberal! You really should read my posts properly before getting so wound up
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Seems to be you who is getting wound up and persistent. Your posts do sound a bit dictatorial and small minded. You should let others live- I know it’s difficult for a self confessed lefty but you can open your eyes and mind to other if you want to. Try it, you might like it!
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Wow, this is funny. A liberal person who seems to be getting a bit, like, heavy and intolerant.
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Sam, serving someone in a shop while speaking a foreign language to another customer or colleague is just blinkin rude and should result in the staff member being disciplined. It’s got sod all to do with racism, customers should expect some level of customer service and that isn’t it!
Whether or not you are intentionally doing it to annoy someone is irrelevant really.
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You say this despite a previous French President admitting that French is a dying language!
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I agree, no point in keeping a language artificially alive. It is sad but a a fact of life that languages die out.
I have lived here 6 years now and I have only once heard 2 people speaking Jerrais together (in a bank queue as it happens). It did make me think how the island must have changed during the lifetime of those two senior citizens, and wonder what they make of it all. And I would never disrespect their language or question their right to speak it. But I bet their children and grandchildren don’t.
You are right Matt G and others, better to invest in our children learning Spanish, Portuguese and Mandarin as these are tipped to be the future biggies.
As for people jumping on the old tired bandwagon to complain about people talking in other European languages in supermarkets- do you speak French to each other when you go shopping in St Malo?
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No, but we don’t work in the shops serving people.
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Maybe I didn’t make that point very well.
Of course people who work in shops here need to be able to speak English to the customers, and in my experience they all can. But it isn’t natural to speak a foreign language to one of your own nationality, that’s all I meant.
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Well, I’m glad that you can now see the distinction, because it is an important one.
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If an ever-dwindling group of people wish to keep this language alive as a hobby, that’s fair enough. I do not have any problem with that.
But for States funding to be given for that same purpose? Especially in these increasingly austere times? No, no, no.
Jerriais is a dead language. It serves no purpose within Jersey, let alone outside of Jersey. For taxpayer’s money to be used in an utterly pointless exercise of preservation would be a travesty.
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It’s a shame that the Government don’t get rid of the “department of a non language” at Highlands and save £ 100,000 a year salaries plus pensions = total of £ 150,000 per annum. That’s lots of people hard earned tax.
I speak as a Jerseyman who’s family has been on the island since at least 1400. My parents speak the language but even they think it is stupid to waste money and keep it alive
Things move on – change happens – get used to it.
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Well said!
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It being part of indigenous Jersey culture, it should be preserved. It is part of the island, no matter what those who come here might try to argue. Those who look purely at the practicalities are missing the point- it is part of what we are, not what those from England want to try and make us.
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I am Jersey born and Jerriais has nothing to do with who I am. I speak English.
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Maybe so, but presumably your opinion should not override what is our culture-if you want to sell out, that is a matter for you alone.
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Of course my opinion doesn’t override anyones… which is why I’m not suggesting outlawing the language. But I won’t accept that I am somehow less a Jerseyman than someone else just because I don’t speak Jerriais.
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It’s all to do with attitude and loyalty to the place where one is born; on that test, certain correspondents roundly fail.
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Jono, if you have any loyalty for a piece of ground that you happened to accidentally be born on, you should seek help. It’s a pretty absurd idea.
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I think Jono is right. Loyalty means a lot. He is entitled to his view, no matter how much you might try to suppress or ridicule it. I share that view. Have you thought about seeking assistance, by any chance?
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One’s parents are an accident but I would hope that you feel some loyalty for your Mum and Dad (maybe not, if the analogy is correct). Oh well.
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Karen, I have no capability to suppress his opinion. He is as entitled to express his opinion as I am, which is what we are both doing. What’s the problem?
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Correct. My grandmother understood Jèrriais but never spoke it. Jèrriais has been long dead in my family, we look out to the world off our shores.
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So do I. I find a telescope helps.
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It sounds to me as well like being Jersey has nothing to do with who you are!
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Depends where your loyalties lie, as with anything. Those who have no loyalty should go and live in Iran and start spouting off- their outspoken introverted beliefs would somehow become less important, I believe.
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Suppose I should just bugger off back to Russia right?
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Sam, has anyone said you are less Jersey because you don’t speak Jerriais? I’m gathering you seem to be quite defensive on this one but I don’t see anyone accusing you. My Jersey friends don’t speak Jerriais and none of them have ever had people suggest it makes them less Jersey.
You don’t have to teach a language up to fluency, but when it is part of the island’s history it makes sense to at least make mention of words that appear regularly around the island and what their meaning is etc.
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My father’s side of the family have lived in Jersey since at least 1600 (we got bored looking back any further as they were all called Philippe and none did anything of interest). He never learned the lingo. The idea that it is integral to the community or part of the Jersey identity is preposterous.
The Jersey identity is low water fishing, foraging, smuggling, drinking (historically cider, now more varied) and disliking authority. It’s not going to Highlands to listen to men with beards gibbering.
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you made me laugh donald, with the “jersey identity”
and these days i could realy do with one , many thanks .
there are other languages , around the world , going the same way ,jersey is not alone.
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Well said Donald. But I’d go further than that. I don’t know how far back my family originates in Jersey, but I know that at least 3/4s of it is not Jersey (half Breton, and a quarter British/ Irish). I was born in the island and, frankly, thats enough. That makes me a Jersey person.
The only thing that makes someone a Jersey person, is considering themselves to be at home when in Jersey. This means my friends born in England are Jersey people too, and my Polish/ Portuguese friends are Jersey people too.
The Jerriais brigade are just trying taking us one step closer to a “pure-blood” interpretation on nationality. Maybe they took a bit too much influence by that bunch that occupied us 1940-45…
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I feel quite at home in Scotland, having been there for three months. I am therefore a Scotsman, thoiugh I doubt that any proper scots would agree with that.
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I’m a Jersey person. I came here once for a day trip and I felt at home. I met lots of other Jersey people on the same day trip as me. It was such fun all being Jersey together.
I’m also a Timbuctoo national, having been there for a week 12 years ago. Then there’s the month in Australia (they didn’t much like it when I announced that I was an Aussie), the two week stint in the Bahamas and the three weeks in Sri Lanka. I felt at home in all of those places. Oddly enough, my various applications for multiple passports in all of those countries was each refused. I wonder why?
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Agree with you both, Sam and Donald.
Nationality is a complicated thing and if most of us research our family trees we will find we come from all over the place. In my case I have English, Irish, French and Indian ancestors just within a few generations.
It is more to do with where you are part of the community than where your forefathers came from.
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I told them I was a Frenchman in france (because I feel at home there) and they just laughed and ran away.
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Sam, one of the few things you’ve said that I agree with (the bit about where you feel is home being key). Obviously it’s not official nationality but who cares.
In saying that, prior to knowing that I had Irish and Norwegian in my ancestry (the rest of it being Scottish) I had noticed that I felt very at home in both Ireland and Norway. So for me, and I presume for some others, where they feel at home naturally falls in line with their ancestry, even if they don’t yet know what their ancestry is.
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Well said Donald
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Canadian French is very similar to Jersey French, its based on Norman French and its very much alive and kicking.
My wife’s of French origin and when we were in Montreal on holiday she found it very hard to understand what they we saying, very much like listening to Jersey French, she said. I could understand their lingo better than her and I don’t speak modern French!
I remember my grandfather telling me in his childhood years, Jersey kids were forced to speak English at school as a compulsory first language, the way he carried on it sounded like ethnic cleansing of a language.
They we’re not allowed to speak Jersey French in classrooms, “their first language”, how messed up it that.
As for my view on the subject, we all speak English in Jersey now. If a language stands the test of time then great, but not in the case of Jersey (Norman) French
I do speak it quite well and i’m 37, but that’s only because I spent a lot of time with my grandfather as a child and all he spoke to me in was Jersey French, he was proud of his heritage and wanted to pass it on.
À forche dé crier Noué i’ veint
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True unfortunately when English gets a grip its often the death of the indigenous languages. The other issue is the English are lazy language learners and expect other nationals to speak to them in English when they are holiday. Some still haven’t realised that it doesn’t matter how loud they speak in English to johnie foreigner if they don’t understand English they won’t be able to reply in English.
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Don’t you just love it when an english person talks to a foreign national in his own country in english, but with an accent which the english idiot thinks matches the national’s accent?
I have heard english people talking to spaniards in english with a spanish accent and I have heard them doing the same with german people. In each case, they are regarded with quizzical contempt and quite rightly so.
The english think that their language and way of life can just trample over everything- it’s the old colonising instinct and we see it in Jersey far too much, unfortunately.
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You are right the English are very lazy when it comes to learning languages. But that is because they can be sure of finding someone who speaks English almost wherever they go. If English was spoken in only one country we would be better linguists – look at Norway, Holland and Sweden for example. They are always fluent in English and usually another European language as well as their native tongue. Because they have to be.
It’s just market forces, nothing more or less.
I agree the sight of an Englishman waving his arms around and shouting in a corny accent is very amusing.
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Sounds like a good argument for plugging non-english here, then. We can enlighten the “lazy liguists” out there!
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What about Esperanto!
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Esperanto?
Total waste of space.
Get a grip, man. English is manifestly the universal language. I would still say that, even if German or Chinese was my first tongue.
Before anyone wastes their time telling me that loads of Americans are Spanish speakers, let me say that the ‘States are taking a huge step backwards by letting this happen.
The world would be a far less complicated place if we all spoke one language (English, for obvious reasons). What is the attraction in making life an ordeal?
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Esperanto may have seemed like a good idea once. But it failed dismally because it’s an artificial language.
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I think that the locals should be made to learn & speak Jerriais. This way it will highlight even more just how irrelevant they are becoming on their own island.
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Very sad to read what people are saying about a language which is dying out.
WHY DON’T WE JUST CHANGE ALL THE ROAD NAMES INTO ENGLISH,FOR ALL THE POOR SOORY PEOPLE WHO CANNOT UNDERSTAND OUR CULTURE!
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The world is all the poorer for the loss of diversity in its many languages which incorporate the soul of a people.
However in a few years time which variety of english wil you speak ?
Already the english spoken in India, America,etc is diverging and english English may well become the non standaed and unacceptable form, you may all have to learn this new form in the future, dont think it cant happen,the latin tongues of europe were all once based on latin only.
Vive le Jerriais
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God forbid it will be Pijin English, but it probably will be!
You’re the only person who has actually made mention of the fact that the loss of diversity is a sad thing, and it is! You don’t just lose the language, you lose history as well because some texts cannot be accurately translated into another language, especially not into English. There are Gaelic words that I cannot think of an English translation for, and if I try I have to use maybe 7 or 8 English words and even then it’s not near enough. The same can be said of Hebrew.
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I think we should have Jerriais on all official corresspondence like they have French and English in Canada.
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The nostalgic element I can understand but in practical terms it´s useless. I think as long as the street & place name remain in Jerrais then it´ll always hold a significant place in the island, even if it isn´t spoken. To be honest, as a 26 year old I can´t recall a single time I´ve heard it spoken.
It is strange how Gibraltarian “Llanito” – a mix of English and Andalucian Spanish, exists and is thriving so well, despite being a third of the size both physically and population wise.
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The Gibraltar language survives because the Gib people have pride and backbone. These qualities’ together with loyalty, seem to be lacking in certain local people. Cornwall, Wales, Scotland and other regions have not sold out in this spineless way, perhaps because they haven’t become overrun with immigrants!
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Scotland IS overrun with immigrants. The reason Gaelic hasn’t died out in Scotland, despite Westminster’s centuries of desperately trying to kill it off and make us all English, is probably a lot to do with our awareness of having a whole different culture to other Scots (and to the English). Bear in mind only part of Scotland was ever Gaelic/Pictish, in the other part the people have the same ancestry as English people (the language in that area is Auld Scots). It’s a common mistake to think that all Scots are Celtic, a minority are.
Having so many islands far from the mainland will have helped also. Gaels have a different sense of humour, different attitude, different music and different genetics to the rest of Scotland (and to England), it’s a culture that kids are born into and find enjoyable, and it’s a culture that attracts ‘foreigners’. If being a Gael was just about the language then it wouldn’t have survived, but it is hard to stop a whole way of life.
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Do you not see the irony of moaning about places becoming overrun with immigrants when talking about Gibraltar? A few hundred years ago they didn’t speak English in Gibraltar….
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Exactly. So therein lies the point of preserving one’s culture.
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No, but can you see the irony in a “Jersey” person moaning and likening those who wish to further the language to the nazi occupying forces?
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The fact you put Jersey in inverted commas as if I’m not a Jersey person proves my point.
I didn’t equate furthering a language to the Nazis. I equated this ridiculous nationalism and talk of the English as foreigners etc to the Nazis, and I stand by that.
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Well, you stand by it if you wish, “Sam”. It has no intellectual power. Ironically, it is “ridiculous nationalism” that managed to ensure that England doesn’t drive on the left and eat Frankfurters. Then again, an illiberal ideology like yours which doesn’t respect nationalism and national boundaries leads us onto the threat of islam, but that is another matter altogether. If you are so anti-Jersey and disloyal, then the inverted commas seem extremely apt to me.
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Sam: “I didn’t equate furthering a language to the Nazis”
Well, Sam, what was said by you (see above) was: “The Jerriais brigade are just trying taking us one step closer to a “pure-blood” interpretation on nationality. Maybe they took a bit too much influence by that bunch that occupied us 1940-45…”
You were, in fact, clearly equating the furtherance of our language by a dedicated few (“the Jerriais brigade” as you put it) to the Nazis, which is pretty low indeed. Quite a few people would be extremely offended by such remarks.
I can’t blame you, however, for trying to distance yourself from such a dreadful comment, though.
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Time for devolution….
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We’re more advanced than mere devolution; independence is the next step.
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It would be a shame for the patois to die out, but this is what happens as generations move along. My parents, grand parents and great grand parents all spoke Jerriais, sadly I do not.
My concerns are not with keeping Jerriais alive but more with the education of our next generation, the parents of tomorrow. One only has to walk through Town and witness the unruly behaviour, rudeness and poor manners of many of our youth.
I think money would be better spent in ensuring our children had a command of English both spoken and written, handwriting to boot. They had awareness of how to behave, contraception, social skills and basic good manners. Perhaps Tony and Geraint could be re-deployed in a capacity that taught the above.
Now that may make Jersey a better palce for all.
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Yes you are right. How people behave and treat others is much more important than which languages they happen to speak.
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I understand why the traditionalists want it to stay, but we have more pressing concerns with regards to Jersey’s heritage and identity at present.
Being bilingual is a good thing, but being able to speak English and French is far more useful than Jerrais.
I was born here, I’m 41, and yet I’ve never met anybody that can speak it fluently. I think that says it all
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Yeah, I reckon we should just bulldoze over Elizabeth Castle and turn it into luxury flats, too. And I’m not being rascist but I’m going to say something acutely rascist and blame the immigrants, because everything in Jersey is the fault of the immigrants, it’s not the local apathy at all. That’s why the voting turn out is so high. That’s how this commenting lark works, isn’t it?
Honestly, if you can’t be bothered to preserve that which makes the island special, you may as well just change your name to Little Southampton and be done with it. I am sure, growing up in Jersey, people used to care. I can only hope that the commenters here are the minority, or you can kiss goodbye to your heritage. Here, have the NHS, then you’ll have something proper to complain about.
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A two stranded thread here:
The original issue was whether it is worth teaching Jerriais in schools. I think it is an appropriate option for language and history students, but not worth making a compulsory subject for all.
The big digression has been into whether it is still a viable living language, and, if not, why. There are examples of languages being resuscitated from a very low base, but I don’t think the communal will is there in this case. The last generation of Jerriais speakers brought their own children up to speak English, and thus the language died at their hands. Every conversation, or even internet thread, between Jersey people in English heaps another stone on its grave.
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On the one side, there is a hardcore of Jersey people who are trying their best to keep things going. In the middle are the apathetic masses and who can blame them? If I am honest, I am one of them. On the other side are the smarmy, overeducated, self righteous “liberal” types who like to tell other people what to do and what to think. These people pose far more of a threat to Jersey’s way of life and freedom of speech, thought and association than any possibilty of a language falling into disuse.
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Obviously,Jerriais no longer a viable language, but it is a vital part of our heritage, which should be preserved,before those last few, whom still think in Jèrriais, draw their last breath.
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What’s the fuss? Soon English will die out too.
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LANGUAGE = CULTURE
If you lose a language, then you lose a culture. Does our heritage, history (and yes, Jèrriais is very much part of our history) and UNIQUE culture not mean anything to us anymore?
It seems to me people in Jersey are starting to forget where they come from.
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A very good point indeed. The problem is, some people in Jersey (even those born here) are so wrapped up in political correctness that they can’t see further than their noses. They seem to miss the point by a mile.
If a paper ran a story about some far-flung indigenous people having a language that might die out, then you can rest assured that our politically correct friends from here and elsewhere would be first in the queue with moral liberal outrage. Somehow, though, this does not happen when the problem involves something at home. Aspects of history are conveniently forgotten or are distorted in the most disloyal manner.
While countries generally try to maintain culture or even find new culture (think America and other ‘new world’ jurisdictions0, we have an element here which appears to be intent upon destroying ours.
It is something which seems to happen in England and it would now appear to have spread here. How all the other countries of the world must laugh at us.
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“It seems to me people in Jersey are starting to forget where they come from.”
That is because most of the people in Jersey did not come from Jersey and have their own languages to speak.
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How true. The sooner we get that particular problem sorted out, the better.
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Perfect point in a few short words.
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