Church to buy former cinema for community centre
Thursday 26th January 2012, 3:00PM GMT.
An artist’s impression of how the restored Odeon might look as a community centre
THE former Odeon Cinema is to be sold for £1 million to one of the Island’s largest church groups, who want to make it into a thriving centre ‘at the heart of the community’.
Freedom Church has agreed to buy the listed building from C Le Masurier and the sale is due to go through the Royal Court tomorrow.
Pastor Tim Bond said that the building would be named Freedom Centre and would be a base for their 400-strong congregation.
However, he also stressed that the church was keen for all Islanders to use the facility, which will need an extensive refurbishment, and that any money raised by the centre would be put back into the community.
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on the face of it, this appears to be a great idea.
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Great. A cult’s headquarters. That’s all we need.
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Just what that dark corner of St Helier needs, plenty of gospel singers to blow out the cobwebs.
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I am glad that this building is finding a “community” use
-but the “Freedom Centre” run by the “Freedom Church”.
Feedom from what exactly ?
Freedom from rational thought perhaps.
Presumably not Freedom from dishonest advertising and unsubstantiated claims.
Looks a bit happy clappy / and donation of your cash will buy [oops, I mean win] you eternal life.
A “400-strong congregation” – obviously not short of a penny or two, but where is the cash coming from?
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A “400-strong congregation – obviously not short of a penny or two, but where is the cash coming from?” -
Exactly my first thought. £1m for purchase; plus how much to clean it up and adapt = £1m plus for only 400 members out of a 100k population? So where’s the money coming from or better yet, who’s money, and hidden agenda is behind it? Would be interesting to know the theological foundation and doctrine upon which this Freedom Church is based. Because five will get you ten that it is unlikely to be Deuteronomy 6:4 or Mark 12:29 – because to understand that one requires some real concentrated theological leg-work, the kind that can never be obtained by preaching the holy rolling one-world-environmental-let’s-all-feel-good factor. Of course I could be totally wrong on this, but no doubt we’ll soon see…
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Nothing like a bunch of Christian fundamentals to raise the happy clappy bar a metre or two!
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Brilliant use of the place, about time this standoff ended with a positive result.
Freedom are a great church with a very forward thinking approach to outreach, perfect location for them.
Well done.
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A forward thinking religion is an oxymoron.
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God moves in mysterious ways!
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Some common sense at long last. I am no bible basher or anything the likes of, but been used for the community has got to be a good thing surely. Not everything needs to make huge profits to be enjoyed.
Fair play to this group of people.
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Totally agree, nice to see it put to good use. Shame to see the negative comments from other people though. Must stem from fear of change or lack of understanding why some organization would do a good deed like this.
Good on the Freedom Church for doing something positive while others sit on the sidelines criticizing and poking jibes at a well meaning organization that appears to want to help the community. Before the question is raised I have nothing to do with this church, I am not religious and have never heard of them before now.
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There would indeed seem to be a lot of bigoted remarks posted on this thread. It is difficult to understand what motivates these ignorant and jealous people.
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Who is ignorant? The sad sacks clinging to a 2000 year old myth or those who laugh at them?
It might be funny were religion not so damn dangerous
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God botherer, religion is not dangerous. As with everything the minority of mutters get the spotlight and tars the vast majority of decent people with the same brush. I work in the UAE where religion is the be all and end all, you can end up stuck in traffic as Friday prayers are called and everyone jumps out of their cars to pray in the middle of the road. I find them to be peaceful and very family orientated as you will find with the (again) vast majority of Christians? If you look back in history (like Northern Ireland) religion has been used as an excuse for wrong doing and violence by the minority. Having lived there I can tell you yet again that the vast majority of people don’t care about it and get on with life whilst the minority use religion as an excuse to perpetuate violence for profit.
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Ignorance. I see that you are associating the word ‘dangerous’ only with violent acts.
Something is also dangerous when it stifles or prevents knowledge. Religion has done this for centuries. From burning ‘witches’ to espousing that the world is flat, to telling African’s not to wear condoms.
The evidence of harm being caused by religious views are overwhelming and endless.
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PEOPLE espoused that the world was flat, back then church and society were indistinguishable. The church provided somewhere for community to gather, it doesn’t mean that everyone there believed the Bible or even in God, and certainly not in the sense that Christians do today.
Still the one about the world being flat makes me laugh, put yourself back there (genuinely, forgetting everything you have ever seen or heard about the Earth) and try and consider that the world isn’t flat, the vast majority of people would have agreed with the masses and those with the outlandish views would have been persecuted just as people with outlandish views are today (although thankfully we’ve mostly moved on from physical torture to other forms of mistreatment)!
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Leah, read a history book. There were people being persecuted for holding contrary views long after the truth was discovered. The church also tried to stifle the idea that the world was not heliocentric. eligion is responsible for preventing scientific knowledge even today.
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Religion is harmful
I would say the same back at you, while always holding some thought for who writes the history. Not all historians are without their own personal agenda and religion tends to be a subject that brings out these types of historians. Still, plenty of killings carried out in the name of science and in the name of scientific research, throughout history and still happening today. Does that make all scientists evil or mean that science itself is to blame? Of course it doesn’t. You simply cannot blame a non-entity! The common denominator is always humans, humans are to blame.
I think it’s funny that you believe religion prevents scientific advance. I think the true position is that it provides a much needed balancing force. There are scientists out there who will go to any lengths to make a name for themselves and who have no qualms about any potential negative fallout from their experiments. Certainly with medical advances there are also a lot of unknowns and new treatments can be in use for many, many decades before long-term problems come to light. While I’m not religious I am incredibly glad there is a balance out there preventing the more egotistical scientists from just doing whatever the hell they want to do with no regard for the consequences. Last year saw new forms of cancers being attributed to transplants of a type that have taken place seemingly happily for a very long time. Still, it’s worth noting that it is usually only the CofE or the Catholic Church that speak out against research, they are not representative of all Christians. Also the concerns that you attribute solely to the church are held by religious and non-religious people alike. I may not always agree with why the CofE is against a certain type of research but so far they have only spoken out about research that I have concerns about (practical and logical concerns rather than religious ones).
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It may not be everyone’s ideal use but its more than any fat-cats ever contributed to the community !!
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I honestly didn’t even realise that there was anyone religious on the island.
Erm, youth center great idea, Christian youth center..religious indoctrination of children? who knows….
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The Odeon cinema in Woolwich is now used by a very active church. Their members stop me in the street begging me to come along to an event. I tell them that I am far too naughty for them to want me in their congregation.
I look forward to having a similar discussion with Freedom Church representatives when I am in Jersey.
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I wonder if they have the information on the percentage of people with ‘faith’ on the island.
It is just out of curiousity to be honest and about a year ago i would have put COE just because I never thought about it. Now i’m currently an atheist.
I wonder what activities they will have, christian rock bands, Jesusween?
anyway… does anyone know what specific branch of christianty the Freedom Church is?
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The branch of Jesus
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“anyway… does anyone know what specific branch of christianty the Freedom Church is?”
What difference does that make? They all say theirs is the right path.
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I had the good fortune to meet representatives of the Freedom church at christmas time,jolly nice lot they were to!
Good luck to them i say,good folk without the heavy handed dogma often associated with the christian religion.
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I like the artist’s interpretation. They’ve basically just changed the ondeon sign to Freedom community center and stuck a pot plant outside… I guess that’s as inventive as Jersey gets these days…
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D’oh! That’s because its a listed building!
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Well they’ve got a lot of money for something I’ve never heard of before. Where did they get it all from?
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donations
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For some reason religious organisations are granted the privilege of being exempt from tax. Basically the state, i.e. the tax payer, sponsor this nonsense. Shame the government don’t extend the privilege to my tiddlywinks club as it could do with a tax break in these hard times.
On another note, I hope the church are providing adequate parking for the 400 or so that might turn up on a Sunday evening. I don’t want Bath Street turning into the blockade New Street does when the St Thomas congregation meet. Seems the privileges for religion stretch to parking violations as that’s the only time the authorities turn a blind eye;
“Excuse me sir, you’re blocking the path for emergency services and I’ve no choice but to issue you with a £50 fine.”
“But I’ve been to church.”
“Oh, that’s okay then.” (Rips up ticket).
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I would prefer it if they converted the building into a care home.
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you would need to put windows in for that, its listed so you cant
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It is interesting to see the above image showing the building stripped of half a century’s worth of grime. Suddenly it starts to look strangely modern and hip. Yet not so long ago on this forum, people were calling it an eyesore and demanding it be demolished. This rather shows the tendency of many to see only the top layer of dirt, rather than to try and imagine what lies beneath. Its a bit like judging books by their covers…. A very similar negative attitude was expressed some years ago at plans to refurbish the old abbatoir buildings. Inside they were rotting wrecks- hardly imaginable today as Liberty Wharf (o.k. the shops themselves are disappointing!) We should be glad that there are people with the vision to imagine re-uses for old buildings. Without them Jersey would be so much poorer; no No. 16 New Street. No Hue Street cottages: No Falle Library: No St James church: No Government House: No St Paul’s Centre: No Barge Aground: No old T.S.B. bank. No La Rocco Tower. All these and many more were once threatened with demolition. Be glad for the people with the vision to see beyond superficial appearances, and who prevented Jersey from being the dullsville it could so easily have ended up being. I wish the Freedom Church success with their plans.
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“A church with real people, living in a real world, dealing with real problems, understanding the reality of God’s grace and enabling”. Freedom church quote.
In the real world it should not be possible for such an organisation to buy their way into such influence. This was a great opportunity for the island to create something special, rather than a headquarters for people with such a specific agenda. Exactly who is this ‘community’ they are talking about?
The idea that any church is short of dogma when you consider the above quote, the mind boggles.
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I am not sure what “influence” you refer to. What do you think the church has “bought in to”?
I guess that the status in this church is the same as for anyone else. After all, we have to sagely tolerate all of the other “communities” which have taken root here.
Grovelling appeasement springs to mind. So why is the term “community” any different in this context to any of the other “communities” that we have been told to accept on pain of being politically incorrect?
One thing is for sure; the bulding looks superb in the picture. Good luck to the church with this bold venture.
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Will
The only other communities I can think of that you might be referring to are foreign communities. There is a difference between a religious community and a foreign community. A foreign community is joined by common ground based on race and custom, seldom preach their ways to others and do not seek to expand their influence outside of their own group. Something unique can be learned from a foreign community about custom and how they deal with life in general. If you show interest in these communities they offer their insight and experiences for nothing in return.
Conversely, a church community is manufactured on the choice of a belief and is not something brought together by virtue of heritage. The church community often feels the need to preach their good news and expand their community. The good work done by religious communities often comes the hard sell and the promise something they could never possibly hope to deliver. Nothing can be learned from religion that cannot be found elsewhere in life.
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you and everyone around you is the community
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Thank you domizgood- very well put.
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It would have made a nice naturist spa and disco with the same name, Freedom Centre.
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I’d sooner see it turned back into a cinema so we could demolish that eyesore on the waterfront. Sion church would be a good alternative for this group.
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Sion church is no good for a community centre
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Would Sion Church do for a naturist spa and disco?
Then we could have two freedom centres!
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Why?
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For those knocking the church and yearning for it to have served another purpose – who would have paid for it. The freedom Church have funded the purchase and will fund any required renovation. it will replace an eyesore that had reached stalemate with the owners unable to develop.
I know some people on this forum will complain no matter what, it’s the benefit of anonomyity but personally I find it hard to argue with the renovation of an eyesore at no public expense that will benefit the community.
Let them develop it and see what it becomes, give them a chance for heavens sake.
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MAY START OUT WITH GOOD INTENTIONS but see how quickly it becomes a magnet for dropouts, alcoholics and workshy. much as the PARK OPPOSITE has already been ruined by layabouts.
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This Freedom Church will pay for treatment for the drop outs, alcoholics and workshy. It will save the States of Jersey as lot of cash and tax payers.
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I cant tell you how dissapointed I am. Judge me if you want, but i bloody hate religion. and now i got to put up with this rubbish on my doorstep aswell as that stupid park that is just a place for drunks and chavs. I dont care if these people only let religious people in or not, i will not be going in there. The whole idea of religion (all religions) is mental and all the believers are therefore mental aswell. What a load of BS. Why cant you just make it an arcade or cinema again or something fun where you dont have to worry some pyscho is going to tell you about the man in the sky.
Big shout out to the artist who did the picture above, I would have really struggled to imagine what this would have looked like otherwise.
Well i suppose every cloud has a silver lining, either the chavs and drunks will abuse them so much they leave, or the bible bashers will convince the drunks and chavs to clean their lives up. Either way its one group of weirdos less
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Well I can tell you there are plenty of us sick of bloody narrow minded, almost to the point of being vindictive commentators on this site. Says a lot that you cannot say something good about a venture that will hopefully help the community. Before anyone starts criticising the Freedom Church they should have a good look at theirselves and how much they have done for the community out of the goodness of their heart. I can tell you I haven’t done enough therefore feel compelled to support the idea even though I am not religious. One can only imagine you have experienced some awful religious based trauma to spout such hateful comments. Peace.
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“One can only imagine you have experienced some awful religious based trauma to spout such hateful comments. ”
I went to de la Salle College. Nuff said.
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Your parents’ choice, I presume?
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Hardly going to be mine is it!
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“Well they’ve got a lot of money for something I’ve never heard of before. Where did they get it all from?”
Not as much as you might think just heard on radio they will be looking to the public to help raise funds for it!!!
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As an athiest I am nevertheless happy to applaud the fact that the building has been bought by a group of people intent on fostering community and teaching good will…rather this then more flats or offices
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Just “Googled” Freedom Church Jersey, plenty information available,including video, for those interested.
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To be honest I have never heard of such a church, but I’m told it’s a branch of Church of England/|Scotland. If they do good in that area then good luck to them.
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Actually, if I’ve got this Church’s history correct it might have come out of the house group movement of the 60′s and not a branch of CoE or CoS.
Freedom Church was the joining together of two churches just under 2 years ago, Jersey Community Church and Abundant Life Church.
If it was from the same Abundant Life Church in Bradford, England, then my statement at the start of the post is correct.
The neo-charismatic movement has really interesting history. Search for Bryn and Keri Jones, Covenant Ministries.
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I think this poison chalice has been passed on. Who will pay for the removal of the asbestos ?
I will be surprised if the church can afford to make this building suitable for the purposes it has in mind. I hope the bill for turning the Odeon into a community facility is not passed onto the tax payer.
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Asbestos does not need to be removed if it is stable.
Even if it is not, it can be bonded.
Sometimes removal is the worst option. Asbestos is safe unless it is damaged or disturbed.
Goodness knows what all the demolition is exposing us to.
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sounds alright and people need something to believe in but and this is a big but, all organised religions are very far behind the curve of the deeper understanding of who and what God is. That is why so many of the mainstream religions are loosing their following. also they do as much damage as they do good.
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Have you got proof that people are leaving religion? Because independent churches (somewhat similar to Freedom Church I would imagine) in the UK are growing, it’s the ones like CofE, RC etc. that are losing members. No surprises there.
Also, any proof they do damage? I’ve been around a few churches in my time, and I’ve been around a fair few Christians in my time (inlcuding some from Freedom Church). All I’ve found are kind, caring people that do the jobs within the community that no-one else seems to want to do, and usually for free too.
It worries me that you probably indoctrinate children with your views of religion being harmful rather than letting them grow, learn and make their mind up for themselves. Mind you, there are lots of people out there indoctrinate children to be anti-religion while espousing anti-indoctrination views, how ironic.
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Leah, there is a huge amount of evidence that religion does damage.
Ask the African’s with AID’s why they don’t wear condoms.
How about ‘honour’ killings?
How about reading ‘To Train Up A Child’. An evangelical instruction guide to child torture. In the book they use the bible for justification for humiliation, torture, terrorising and whipping children and infants.
What about the treatment of women in some islamic countries?
I could go on but I won’t due to lack of time and space.
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Personal Belief isn’t harmful – Organised Religion can be!
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I disagree Muddy. Personal beliefs can be very harmful, particularly if they impact on other people.
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These are the same excuses people always give. Thing is, they don’t relate to facts. Your comments are about people using religion as an excuse, no-one can stop them doing that unfortunately. No point getting into the Africa and AIDs debate (although matters are complex in the 3rd world), why ignore some Biblical teachings but go along with the man-made one about contraception? It doesn’t add up so clearly it isn’t just about what the church says (it’s worth looking into the politics behind it).
Honour killings, treatment of women etc, it’s adults making decisions for themselves that suit their own personal needs then using religion as an excuse.
I get that people don’t want to take responsibility for their own actions, preferring to blame religion, politics, their upbringing etc. but the minute they ignore one aspect of that apparent indoctrination it throws their excuse out the window, if you can ignore one aspect you can ignore any of them, you choose to not.
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Isn’t that the thrust of my argument all along Leah? Religion is harmful because people warp and distort it to suit themselves. Henry VIII warped it for his own benefit but it had the most significant effect.
Islam gets ‘interpreted’ whenever the wind changes direction and people die because of it. These are just two examples.
Trying to paint it as a harmless personal preoccupation is disingenuous.
The only way religion can be harmless is if the follower keeps it to themselves completely and does not feel obliged to ‘spread the word’. But hey, if they did that there would be no religion would there because no-one would be trying to convert their friends, family or (worse still) strangers.
Ipso facto, a main purpose of religion is to make others believe what you believe, whether that be good or bad. The alternative is the death of that religion.
For that reason I stand by my statement. Religion IS harmful simlpy because it lends itself to atrocious behaviour in its name.
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I have no issue accepting that last statement you made as long as you are the sort that agrees then that science is harmful, politics is harmful, philosophy is harmful, basically holding a view on anything is harmful. It cannot be true of religion without being true of other lines of thought (which, if you don’t believe God exists is all religion is anyway).
You can’t say the ipso facto bit though because religion itself isn’t a person and cannot have a purpose. Churches didn’t come about to tell people what to believe, they came about as a way for people of like mind to meet and worship together. The churches I know of that’s all they do today as well, I’m sure they’d love for their loved ones to become Christians but I don’t see them shoving their beliefs down people’s throats.
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Just been reading reams of mind boggling dros! Like to dispel a myth here – organised religion is not losing members as is suggested. Go to any Catholic Church on the Island on a Sunday morning and you will find they are all standing room only -freedom of choice to believe what we like comes to mind without being branded as ‘bible bashers’. Live and let live for goodness sake – I couldn’t care less what other people believe – that’s their perogotive and i’m more than happy to respect that and not question peoples sanity for having didn’t thoughts on life to me – equally, a bit of respect for us who do believe please – there is an awful lot of misinformation and claptrap flying around here. And on that note I am off to bed to say my prayers – let’s hope I don’t get dragged off to the funny farm for such a bold statement!!!
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I am gratefull to a lot of people who attend this Church, who helped me when and after i became a Christian many years ago and am gratefull to Jersey for allowing me to share your island for a while. this is a good thing for Jersey.a really good thing. Derek hawkins
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Why is it a good thing for Jersey? It’s just a club house for a group of people who believe their own particular kind of fairy stories.
Would it have been equally a good thing for Jersey if it had been bought by a fundamentalist Islamic group or scientologists?
I see no difference. Explain the benefits to me and why they might be different to some other sect or cult.
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Of course they also want to do things ‘for the community’.
Please read ‘recuitment drive aimed at vulnerable people’.
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Why should he explain anything to you? You need to make your own enquiry, not rely on others to do that for you.
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Because Ned, if Derek makes an assertion i.e ‘this is a really good thing for Jersey’, he simply should explain why.
Or do you just accept anything said to you at face value?
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Where is the money coming from?
£1 million to start with?
Considering even at today’s rates (2.5%) that money would generate at least £25,000 in bank interest. Why would you want to pour it down the drain on a derelict building?
How can they get something past planning yet le Masuriers couldn’t?
Lots of questions not a lot of answers.
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“How can they get something past planning yet Le Masuriers couldn’t?”
Actually no plans for the building have yet been submitted by the church. But given that Le Masuriers wanted to demolish this listed building, and that the Freedom Church want to convert it, I think the answer to your question is obvious.
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(jersey boy)i couldnt agree more with you its nice to see more people nowadays finding religion a comeplete waiste of time,i hate everything about it. and i find the people who believe in it a waiste of time aswell,how anybody can justify believing in a god who sits back and watches poor children killed and all the rest of the things that happen is beond me.
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ps gino risoli. i dont need nothing to believe in. if i was to i would believe in myself.not somnething that is myth.and will never be proven.
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The double negative means that you are saying that you DO need something to believe in. A Freudian slip, perhaps?
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I’m not particularly religious, but am reminded of the famous GK Chesterton quote: “When people stop believing in God, they don’t believe in nothing — they believe in anything”
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Just because Chesterton said it does not make it true. Most people who stop believing in a god start believing in reason, fact and rationality.
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What a fascinating blog. people who are wholly ignorant of Freedom church accuse them of being bigoted…I am sorry but WHO is bigoted?
I am not a member of freedom church but I did become a christian in my twenties without being coerced by anyone. Several decades later I find nothing sinister in it but plenty of freedom and joy in my life. Freedom to enjoy the simple things and not to moan about everything for example. The whole Freedom church name sound very apt to me.
What a paradox that people who declare hatred for religion need to be set free from hate, and the very religion they hate can do that!
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There are some odd comments here regarding the church but I can’t see any that state that it is “bigoted”. Are you sure that you’re reading the right thread?
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If they want to do their thing in their own building – fine.
Just don’t come around to us normal people whilst we are quitely getting on with our lives and start ramming it down our throats!
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I just love the way that as soon as somebody has an alternative point of view and it doesn’t conform to the bigoted majority you are labelled a bigot for not adhering to the systematic brain washing of the majority!
It is called democracy and yes we are allowed to voice our legitimate concerns about big corporations getting there own way. And 9 times out of 10 at the cost to the taxpayer of Jersey.
There is much more to this deal than meets the eye. I will not be the least surprised when the ozouf stomps up some financial stimulus money to “help the economy” to rebuild this monolith to bad planning. The building should have been demolished years ago.
The vermin catchers amongst us can smell a rat when we see one.
And this one stinks!
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Well said
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This sounds fantastic.
I imagine it’s not about cash rather a mortgage (or a loan of some other kind) and that possibly they will have a business plan that allows these mortgage payments to be met by maybe renting out rooms or whatever. This sounds far more like a normal way of working it than the hysterics above from people who just hear the word ‘church’ and have to moan! Unless this church has hurt them personally in some way they should just shut up and keep their petty jealousy to themselves.
I say jealousy because the biggest complaint seems to be that these churcgo-ers are HAPPY!
Oh my word, can you imagine being happy? What a terrible thing, we really must criticise people being happy and enjoying going to church, after all the island is awash with happy people who are making life a cheerier place for us all?!?!?!?!?!
Seriously folks, grow up, there’s nothing to criticise here, a use has been found, the States will get money and you get to carry on with your (one can only assume SAD) lives without anyone bothering you.
For a society that is so naturally indoctrinal with ideas that not everyone actually agrees with (but they will get persecuted for disagreeing) what difference does it make who allegedly does the indoctrinating? We’re either old enough and wise enough to think for ourselves when faced with society’s views and church views, or we shouldn’t be subjected to either.
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I understand your reasoning but it is in fact a church/body of people who come together in praise of the same thought. It is acceptable to call this centre a church.
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Sorry Toasted, you’ve misunderstood, I know it’s a church, I haven’t said otherwise. My argument is that what this building is used for doesn’t affect anyone’s life unless they want it to so to moan about it just because it’s a church is chirlish.
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I’m sorry, I just get a little annoyed with a group of people who honestly believe that I deserve eternal torture, for simply not believing in their all powerful deity.
To be fair, I don’t know what specific views this group has on important issues (condoms, homosexuality, abortion ect) but I don’t think that is relevant for a community centre (unless they will be giving advice?)
I am just expressing my opinion though.
btw, I am happy without faith and don’t like your idea that people who are commenting with negative views on religion are doing so out of jealousy? Quite a broad brush to tar me with.
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Leah
Promising people eternal life for believing in something without a shred of evidence is harmful. Not so much to the individual but to the human race in general. If we all believed in one version or another of religion then we’d all go off in our own direction, assuming we already know the answer, stagnating in time not accepting new discoveries that contradict scripture, or bother to advance ourselves in areas that may go against the spirit of scripture. If we are to prosper and not go the way of the Dodo what we really need is secular unity and societies that base their values on reason.
More locally, religious groups have powerful lobbying ability to affect local laws or proposals. Except their arguments for or against are often based on mantra rather than reason. This is both ignorant and unfair.
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JP Special, I only suggested jealousy regarding complaints about these people being happy. You didn’t make such a comment.
Joker, no-one has to believe what a church teaches, they don’t even have to go to church. And not all Christians take a literal ‘eternal life’ view of heaven, some believe heaven and hell are a state of being in the here and now.
I’m sure we’ve had the debate before that if religion ceased to exist then politics or philosophy or some other line of thought would just come to the fore and that would be no different as far as I’m concerned. You assume that people believe blindly what they are told rather than going to a church because they already hold values that match those of that church (hence why those same views can be found among non-religious people).
Where lobbying powers are concerned, as far as I’m aware (certainly in the UK) groups lobby on behalf of their members. It isn’t being religious that gives them that power it’s being a voice for a number of people. In the UK you will find that small, independent churches don’t get a voice, they’re just too small, the fact that they are Christian doesn’t give them any advantage there. Unions, political groups, religious groups, health-based organisations, social groups etc. they all lobby Governments on behalf of their members. It’s perfectly normal and we either allow them all or disallow them all because they all represent part of the electorate.
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“…no-one has to believe what a church teaches, they don’t even have to go to church.”
True for a very small minority, but we are talking about this church in particular, which is an organised religion which does believe in and does preach eternal life. Besides the bible also speaks of eternal life and I’m not sure you can be considered Christian if you reject this fundamental principle.
“…if religion ceased to exist then politics or philosophy or some other line of thought would just come to the fore and that would be no different as far as I’m concerned.”
Oh yes it would. Politics based on reason would be completely different. Unfortunately politics can be tainted by bigotry beliefs and greed, neither of which are reasonable. Philosophy would be different because it is based on reason and rational argument and not biased by irrational scripture.
“It isn’t being religious that gives them that power it’s being a voice for a number of people.”
Yes… on behalf of religious people who often favour dogmatic views over a rational view in fear of upsetting their Maker or going against scripture. Unions and health organisations etc lobby, or should do, based on a rational argument that either favours their particular group or the general population and not because a book told them to, e.g. using condoms is wrong because I’ve interpreted scripture as saying so and not because, e.g., it has been proven that using condoms is harmful to the users.
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Joker, people are irrational and views put forward by Unions etc. are very often entirely self-serving, selfish and have no basis on rationale at all.
I’m not a Christian, but I know some who believe that Heaven is ‘separation from God’ and that can occur in the present, it doesn’t have to be in the future.
As for politics it is far from based on rationale, and philosphy isn’t necessarily based on rationale, and that’s before we get onto discussing the people that practice either.
I’ve yet to meet a Christian who just believes what they believe because the Bible tells them too
I’ve been at services where it’s been made very clear that even what the Bible says should be questioned by the congregation. After all, belief is weak if you’re just going along with someone else’s words, it’s only strong if you bother to think what’s behind it and work it out for yourself. There are perfectly sound arguments for the moral reasoning in the Bible, that doesn’t mean everyone agrees with them, but there is certainly a case to be made and if people hold to that view then that’s their choice. I worry far more about people who reject moral teachings from the Bible JUST because they are found in the Bible, that’s not thinking for oneself.
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Sorry Leah but eternal life is a fundamental Christian principle and I do not except you can be considered Christian if you do not believe in the Holy Spirit which lives forever.
You might have Christian tendencies, and by that I mean be good to thy neighbour etc but that does not mean you are a Christian because these are not originally Christian qualities. They are hardwired survival functions of the human brain that can only be reversed by conditioning.
It’s up to people if they want to cherry pick bits of the bible they agree with or relate to but I’m not sure they can be considered true Christians unless they believe in the fundamentals of the bible.
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The problem is Leah that they do bother people. Have you never had a christian ringing your doorbell on a Saturday morning? It irritates me.
Religion is dangerous, nasty and pernicious because it insists that we follow it. Whatever one it is. This particular group feel that it is their duty to spread the ‘word’. It’s my duty to respond.
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I was once startled into accepting a christian leaflet.
I actually read it when i got home… paraphrasing this is what it essentialy said ‘Christianity is real because the Bible said so’ Then gave quotes from the Bible, I’m not sure about you but I dont take the Bible as Gospel.
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No, I haven’t! Not ever.
I’ve had Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons, but not anyone from what I would think of as a Christian Church.
Religions aren’t physical entities they cannot insist you do anything.
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Oh but they do. Particularly those religions disposed to violent means. Currently that would be Islam but Christianity has had a good go.
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Tj
You believe in yourself, that’s good.
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Tj,
If only we all had that idea, why? Because we are all gods.
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‘God’ is a word with definitions. Quick search will give 8 or 9 slightly varied definitions, none of which could be applied to any of us.
Probably just as well, because if humans were Gods clearly we’d have no hope!
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Gin Rissole “Tj,
If only we all had that idea, why? Because we are all gods.
And this guy was up for election? can’t imagine why he didn’t get elected. Childish babbling nonesense he’d have fitted right in at the big top.
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Good luck to the Freedom Church and their project, but will the taxpayer or rate payers be asked for funding, most probably ?
St Helier Town Church owned by a larger religious organisation with more than £3 billion in assets, has still benefited from generous hand outs by St Helier rate payers after years of on going refurbishment.
Not that I am against repairing old buildings owned by others but they should pay for them from their own funds.
The fact that Mr Gorst is apparently a leading member of the church will of course have no bearing on funding requests, just as Dean Key of the Town church sits in the States.
Davey West
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In the UK there can sometimes be assistance to old church buildings because the buildings are historic and locals (inc. non-religious people) don’t want to see them fall into disrepair. Fair enough when other non-religious old buildings get funding. But I don’t know of modern churches getting assistance from the taxpayer.
Equally I wouldn’t be surprised if Freedom Church have been saving for years (possibly even decades) to at some point get their own building. I can think of quite a few modern churches in the UK that have done just that, no funding from taxpayers requested or required.
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gino. i dont concider myself as a god.if you think there is a god up there, then tell me why would anyone believe in him (or her)which ever way you want to look at it.jonathan i did say (if i was to believe)
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For the hard of understanding and as an ode to the skeptical….could it be that as this was announced one day before it was passed,as a a deal was done behind closed doors ..a deal that may yet turn out to be with the States who are frantically trying to empty Fort Regent of clubs and recreation areas so as to sell it off,and they could stick jungle Jims at the Odeon in return for a teensie weensie bit of fiscal stimuli…dosh….Nay Zoro…be not so cynical…the nice people wouldn’t sell what belongs to the public without approval surely…that’s more the sort of a stunt from your Spanish inquisition era surely…”Mi Culo”
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I never thought of that Zoro but you raise a good point!
Lets see what comes in the next couple of months.
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It is quite clear that churches in Jersey are not spreading the good news adequately, otherwise we would not need this so called Freedom Church.
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Tj,
What if you were to believe that God is everything.
Everything is a facet of God, an indivisible part.
Question of why we are here becomes clearer. God already knows the all that God is, the individual facets allow God to experience every facet that exists. We are not spereate from God and we cannot do wrong. Consequences yes, that allows the ability to create as God the next experience as a creator you wish to experience. This is part of my belief.
That makes everyone responsible for their actions without needing to be judged. Making God separate allows for better than to exist which is just a judgement, used as a tool for a minority to control the masses. If you believe that we are all Gods, the latter could not exist. There are things that you do that expands you as a person and there are things that Deminish you.
Sport is a perfect example where society miss understands. Sport is first and last a game. You cannot have a winner without the others taking part, yet we give medals to the winners. This idea promotes separation where separation is irrational.
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What are earth are you trying to say and how is this relevent to the fact that the Odeon Cinema has been bought by the Freedom Church.
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I heard on the grapevine that St Thomas’s is converting into a cinema – is that true?
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What the hell is he talking about?
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Gino
Interesting theory, but as with all theistic theories applying simple reason very quickly discredits the theory:-
You say everything is a facet of God and we are not separate from God – we are indeed God. Then you say God already knows all that God is.
If those two statements are true then we would consciously be aware that we are God. But at least 2 people in this universe (Tj and I) are 100% positive we are not God, or we are God but we don’t know it.
Either way, this disproves your theory.
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Is there any logic to God?
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Not really about the logic of ‘God’ per say. More about the logic of theories purported to support the existance of God.
In Gino’s story if God doesn’t know he exists, then God cannot exist.
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well said joker,sorry gino i didnt get any off that.all i can say is why isnt your god doing anything to help the suffering thats going on around the world.i cannot believe in a god who sits back and watches this.and i cannot understand the people who believe in him or her.
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Oh Please! – not that old chestnut again! ‘why doesn’t God do something – whinge whinge moan moan’.
Haven’t you noticed that 99% of the suffering in the world is caused by man’s inhumanity to man? Talk about living in a culture of blame – next thing some pillock will come up with the idea of suing God!
Reading some of these ‘fascinating’ blogs, it always makes me laugh when non-believers start accusing believers of ‘pushing their beiefs down everyone elses throat’. I believe – i’m happy – don’t need anyone’s approval – freedom of choice etc etc – and I don’t ram it down anyones throat – end of!
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VOR
I don’t think people are directing blame at God. They are using it as an example to show how ridiculous the notion of there being an omnipotent god is when he can let so much suffering happen. It’s the lack of intervention that shows he is highly unlikely to exist because any rational being, godlike or otherwise would intervene.
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No – sorry! – your arguement just doesn’t work. I can’t be bothered to go into the theology of ‘free will’ but what I will do it re-iterate the fact that the vast majority of suffering on this earth is down to man – simple as that. The idea that God should be like a fairy godmother (scuse the pun) waving a magic wand and putting things right for us all is crackers!
It’s up to us mere mortals to get off our backsides and do something for our fellow man – wait a minute – isn’t that what the Freedom Church are trying to do? Oh no wonder they are getting a hammering – heaven forbid someone does something without an ulterior motive and without monetory gain – they can’t possibly be genuine can they?!!!
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Good luck to them, I wonder how long before most of the congregation get fed up with walking miles from the nearest car park?
You can’t park in the “residents’ spaces” (I thought public roads belonged to us all?) around there, and once the masterplan to demolish Minden Place and build on Ann Court comes to fruition, it’s going to be quite a trek accross town!
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For all the people who are saying this is fine and asking what harm can they do, i suggest you go and have a good read of their aims and beliefs on their website. Wanting to transform Jersey culture and society through christian influence and the word of the old testament does not strike me as progressive or caring. Scaring people into believing they will incur divine wrath and judgement if they don’t believe in this nonsense…can anybody really take this stuff seriously? Using the words ‘community centre’ as a ruse to get a large building so as to gain as many members as possible seems to be disingenuous at best. Of course they will have to work with the community as they will not survive if they do not keep gaining members and all of the money these people will bring with them.
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Yee ha. Nailed it BB.
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Religion is harmful – so is smoking, drinking, taking heroin and walking through the tunnel in the rush hour – but people still do it – mad impulsive fools.
Maybe the new centre could carry a health warning – ‘Religion can seriously damage your health’ – would that make you feel better? Wait a minute, doesn’t there have to be some evidence to support that statement – well it was worth a try.
Have to admit, been an ardent follower of my faith all my life but so far haven’t suffered any lasting ill effects – however, have reaped lots of rewards and benefits, so as the old saying goes – ‘don’t knock it till you’ve tried it!’ Happy days!!
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”Wait a minute, doesn’t there have to be some evidence to support that statement – well it was worth a try”
Is that a joke…. evidence is not something religion is big on.
It is the mindset of belief that is the issue, there is no difference to believe that bread and wine turn into the body and blood of christ than it is to believe that suicide bombings give you 72 virgins in heaven, different outcome, same deluded principles of faith.
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I suggest rather meeting people that go to this church. That’s the best reflection of a church (not something written down and open to interpretation and tone).
And frankly, if people can be scared into believing they’ll incur divine wrath when it isn’t something they would ever have considered before a churchgo-er spoke to them then I think such person probably has far bigger problems.
Some on here seem to think that no-one can actually think for themselves. Newsflash, people can and do.
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Python said it best -
All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom.
He made their horrid wings.
All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.
Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid–
Who made the spikey urchin?
Who made the sharks? He did!
All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.
Amen.
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